| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Great news, Steve! Easy does it, Fella. Let the Holy Spirit lead. Relax. It will be it done in God's time and in His way. Jerry | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Great news Steve! I feel your excitement! Saying a prayer for her now. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Susan and Steve, I'm a fossil hunter too and I know Sharkstooth Hill real well. I've got some great sharksteeth out of there. Coalinga is also a well known area and I think Susan is talking about the Kettleman Hills area. Good area for rockhounding and fossil hunting, just be careful of abandoned mine shafts! My hometown is Porterville, Susan, what's yours? | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dear Loveviking,I grw up in a rural area of the Central Valley on a farm between two small twns called Caruthers and Raisin City, the latter being more a village than a real town. My mother taught in public schools in Riverdale, Raisin City and Easton. I attended Reedley College (now renamed Kings River Community College), Fresno City College and CSUF. As I write this can see out my window my mom and two of my children leave to the SDA service. I wonder what untruth they will hear today. Last week when I went with my mom the preacher said that Jesus did not know he truly would be resurrected in three days. That for all Jesus truly knew He might be in the grave FOREVER. That statement struck me as near blastphomy as Jesus sid as Johah was in te fish for 3 days so he would be in the tomb. Also, that statement totally mocks the story of the Immaculate Conceptin. Fortunatelly for most SDA's they sleep through the sermon so maybe that's Gods miracle so these SDA's don't truly surcumb their minds to that rubbish. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hey, fossil hunting is fun. When we removed a couple of the rocks (yes, rocks) that were being used for the foundation supports for our house, we decided to bust them up. Found a fossil sand dollar and a sea urchin in them. Steve, praying for your mom to be churned up. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have a question regarding fossils and the SDA religion. When I was a little girl, 40+ years ago, I was taught in SDA school and in Sabbath School that dionasaurs and other evidence of prehistoric life was place in the earth by satan to confuse seekers of the truth into disbeliving the creation story. I was taught that this old world that we live on is 6,000 years old and that' it, that is the final truth on this issue so shut-up and don't ask questions. Growing up in a home that almost treats National Geographic with reference I have read those magazines faithfully nearly my entire life. And, frankly, even as a kid I thought the researchers and writers for N.G. had more credibility than my teachers. Do the SDA still teach this nonsense? I recently read in a J.W. plubication that the world is a mere 6,000 years old and any evidence to the contrary is a deception by satan. | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Hey LoneViking, from one fossil hunter to another, I'd love to talk fossils with you, if you could be persuaded to email me at Cretolamna@yahoo.com I'd love to talk shop with you about our shared hobby. Now, Susan, I suppose I'll take a stab at the question you posed. Yes, SDA still officially teach that the earth is a mere 6,000 years old and that if anyone questions that, then they must be lead by the devil. I say that because my brother teaches science at an Adventist academy and that is what he is required to teach to his students in Earth Science, and he gets told to just 'gloss' over the sections of the textbook that cover fossils and such. I'm by no means an evolutionist, far from it(!), but I can find no information that even remotely proves that this earth is 6,000 years old. I suspect this idea came from some SDA higher up at some point and now it's just the generally held opinion amongst SDAs because that's all they've ever been told. Scientific dating of material has it's problems and inaccuracies for sure, but one thing is for sure and that is that the fossils that are imbedded in a solid rock matrix did not get there while the stone was solid, so it had to be in a different form at some point and those rocks tend to date older than 6,000 years. I'm not saying they are millions upon millions of years old, just saying that they could just as easily be older than the magical 6,000 figure. It does no good though to attempt to test the fossils in them because the fossils have been fossilized by minerals that are older than the object fossilized so it tends to give a skewed age accordingly. When I deal with fossils, I use the same terminology as an evolutionist when it comes to terms like Cretaceous, Eocene, Miocene and the like. The only difference for me is that I don't use them to designate how old it is but more as a label for what is believed about certain types of rocks so people will know to what I refer. I just use it as a label rather than age designation. I don't know anyone who truly knows a way to determine the age of the earth and I suspect we'll never know, but it's not as cut and dried as the Adventist church wants everyone to believe. Anyhow, that's my little bit on the subject. Steve | ||
| Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider) |
If you have questians regarding the reconciling of science and faith, I would recommend checking out the website of Dr.Hugh Ross. The ministry is called Reasons to Believe, and his website is reasons.org. It is a worldwide ministry, and his books would thrill the heart of anyone who has ever had to look at scientific information and turn their head away, because of old "6,000 year" messages trapped inside. Frankly, it would be easier to prove a flat Earth then some of the nonsense we were taught. I think much of SDA creation "science" is taught to bolster the Sabbath teachings. And, that is pretty primary. Check it out, especially you fossil guys, I think you'd find it worthwhile. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Susan, Riverdale? I used to cruise Riverdale on Friday nights and it wasn't too far from there that we used to do quarter mile races! And bonfires in the wash with tailgate parties. I went to Armona Union Academy my last two years of high school and we high schoolers would always head someplace north towards Fresno to have fun and hang out. Lydell, you really are somewhere in the South or Midwest!  They used to use lots of limestone as the foundations for houses. Steve, I'll e-mail you later on. I also agree that six thousand years is just so much nonsense. I find plenty of wiggling room in Genesis to allow for a very old earth. Fossils aside, just go to the Petrified Forest of Arizona. Thousands upon thousands of trees, buried--fossilised--and then more trees grew on top of them and the process repeated itself. There are layers over 600 feet thick! That doesn't happen in just 6,000 years............... | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
It's nice to see someone who agrees with me that 6,000 years is in all essence, rubbish. When I was our fossil hunting yesterday I was thinking about this discussion even more, and I was wondering where exactly they got the 6,000 year idea from. I preliminarily chalk it up to EGW, since it seems so many off the wall ideas originate with her. I also suspect they have this idea that the earth will exist for 6,000 years, and then Jesus will come at the end of the 6,000 years. I've heard that from numerous adventist pastors and such, but it was spoken in more of an off the record manner. At any rate, I disagree with them entirely. They put so much faith in mere speculation that it's frightening. The fossil hunt did go well though and no injuries or incidents such as that, so a wonderful day was had. Good point about the petrified wood, LoneViking, I hadn't thought of that nor did I know how deep that material was. It is very nice not to have such tunnel vision about the history of the earth anymore. At any rate, time for lunch. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
It's not just Adventists who believe in a 6,000 year old earth. There's an organization called (I might have this slightly wrong, but this is close) Creation Science Research Institute made up of Christians from many persuasions. They have members who are scientists who argue persuasively that all geological phenomena we see can be explained within a 6,000-year time framework. One of their current evidences is the 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens in Washington and the resulting formations previously explained only by mellennia of pressure and heat. I personally see Genesis as supporting epochs of time, and I don't believe that an old earth negates the flood or Creation and God's personal involvement in it and in the creation of man in any way. I only mention the above to point out that many Christians are firmly convinced in a yong earthóand probably our beginnings are veiled in mystery for divine reasons as compelling as the reasons our future is also veiled in mystery. We have enough information to KNOW God created the earth and life and humanity for Himself, and we also have enough information to KNOW that He will take us to be with himself and will also create a new heaven and a new earth. We will undoubtedly eat the marriage supper of the Lamb shoulder-to-shoulder with young earth and old earth believers! Although I know that some truly born-again Christians whom I respect believe Hugh Ross to be a heretic, I personally agree with inside/outsider above; Ross's research and publications have made great sense to me, and while I don't believe he is a source of all truth, I do think his books are helpful and well worth reading. I gave one of his books to a teenaged student of mine a couple of years ago. Although raised in a true evangelical Christian (non-SDA) home, he was honestly struggling with whether or not he could believe in God. One week later this boy (who was exceptionally bright and had to have his mathematical ducks in a row before things made sense to him) bounced into my room, sat down, and said, "This book has convinced me I can believe in God!" I'll never forget his relief and excitement; Ross's book had convinced him that belief in a personal God who created all things was not anti-scientific. In fact, science supports such a belief. It really is wonderful to be let out of the box in ALL those areas in which we were so adamantly told how to believe! Praising Jesus for truth and for reality which is more than we can see, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Topic: Evolution-Obivesoully there is evolution and there is creation by our Creator God. One does not cancel out the other. I figure however things came to be it's still an awsome wonderous miracle. My biology teacher at the obiversity said evolution simpley biological change over a great time span. The Indians who live in the way north, up in the tundra regions have a huge lung capasity. The Indians who live down in the Amazon area have a much different physology. Now, either our Creator created these different groups of Indians differently so they were from their creation made to adapt to their environment or over time their bodies adapted to their envoironments. Also, I read recently that the little toeon humans is gradually disappearing. That's evolution. My dad, myself and 2 of my 4 children have Tourette Syndrome. If my children with T.S. marry someone with Tourette's it's very likely their children will have T.S. And, how does one explain the great increase in Autism? The genes for these disorders are manifesting themselves now and that's evolution. It in no way denies Creation. Besides, one would think the Adventists would be formost on the bandwagon promoting evolution with the corney teaching of EGW's about amalgamation of man and beast! | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
I would like to say that I personally know of SDA teachers up here at CUC who present the old earth as a possibliity to their students and when questioned privately they will admit to also believing the old earth idea. Let's be careful and not pigeon hole every SDA professor as narrow minded. I am open to both possibilities and get nervous when I feel people are being dogmatic on either view. Yes I agree that there will probably be born-again Christians from both camps worshiping before our wonderful God in His kingdom. The 6000 year earth idea is certainly not held by only SDA's. There are other fundamentalists who believe the same. I think both camps have legitimate points but the jury is still out for me on the subject and since it is not a salvation issue as far as I am concerned, I don't spend much time worrying about it. Enjoyed reading this thread. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hello all, I've always wondered myself as to the age of this earth. According to Scripture, in the book of Job, chapter 41 I see a 'dragon' or something akin to one. When we get down to verses 18-21, it reads thus in my NIV: And keep in mind that this is the Lord speaking-- verse 18 "His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn". verse 19 "Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out". verse 20 "Smoke pours from his nostils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds". verse 21 "His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth". And our Lord God wrote about two creatures in that chapter. He goes on describing this one. Very interesting stuff. Plus, I don't know of any such creature these days. Does anyone else know of such a creature? And yet, we hear nothing of this creature bothering any humans of the Bible (or at least I haven't). Now my NIV says in the footnotes that these creatures are possibly the hippopotamus or the elephant and possibly the crocodile. But I've never, in my life heard of any of these creatures having "Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth". Has anyone else? Plus I read Genesis and find that in the 5th day of creation (before man was created), God made living creatures to dwell in the water, birds and every living thing with which water teems. When we get to the 6th day, God creates living creatures according to their kind;; livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind. THEN He made man. It doesn't specify what type of creatures move along the ground. Just creatures according to their kind. I find that interesting and have always wondered about dinosaurs, dragons and their origins. Yet, we have an account in the book of Job of some sort of creature that shoots flames out of it's mouth! Hmmm, I'm gonna have to do a search in the Hebrew now. Still, ever watch those movies where dinosaurs and dragons exist with men and wonder where they got such an idea? I have. Anyhow, that's my say other than I've always wanted to go fossils hunting for some reason. I think I should have been a ....umm...archeologist? No, that's only part of it, what are those people called who look at human and animal bones of ancient age? Anyhow, that's always been a fascinating field that I wished I had gone to school for or just go on my own to places of archeological digs to search for evidence of human and animal bones. Then learn how to date and preserve them and to put them together if enough bones were collected. Blessings to all, DtB, your sister in our God, Jesus | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Denise, the word is 'paleontology'. Clay, you're right that some SDA professors hold to the old earth theory. Here in Loma Linda at the Geoscience Research Institute there are some who do. (I have two geologists for brothers-in-law and one of them reguarly does work for GRI). And some of the leading proponents of a young earth, such as Duane Gish, are not SDA. As for the 6,000 year figure, thank the Catholic Church for that one! A bishop by the name of Ussher, back in the middle ages, took the Bible and the geneologies and did some figuring. He came up with 6,000 years---of course he also believed in a flat earth and that the sun revolved around the earth. A 6,000 year old earth is the only relic that still exists from that time. For me, it all comes down to this---either there is intelligent design and someone doing the designing or there is blind chance. I can't agree with blind chance as the universe is just too well ordered a place. For this earth to exist and support life required over 150 variables to be just right: the right size; the right albedo; the right place in the solar system; the right amount of volcanic activity;etc.... A young person's faith can be totally destroyed when they have been taught 'young eath' and then go to college and face the irrefutable evidence of an old earth. Mine nearly was and I left all church activity for several years. Then, I began looking at the 'intelligent design' argument and the light came on. The Bible and evolution are NOT incompatible, we just have to realize that the Bible is NOT a book of science. Bill S. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
As Colleen has said, there are many Christians who believe in a young age of the earth. One of the chief reasons biblically to accept that the earth is not incredibly old is because of what the Bible tells us about the origin of death, i.e., death came into the world because of sin. Just because the SDA's taught it, doesn't mean it should automatically be tossed out, guys. My brother-inlaw, a geophysicist, and never an SDA, was a staunch proponet of evolution until he became a Christian. Now he has gone back and reinvestigate the stuff he was taught in school and flatly rejects evoltion as impossible in the face of the evidence. There are many scientists who reject the idea of an old age for the earth. So you just might do some investigating of your own folks. There is much evidence to support a young age for the earth. Here's some websites you could start with. Institue for Creation Research http://www.icr.org Creation Research Society http://www.creationresearch.org Rocky Mountain Creation Fellowship http://www.youngearth.org Center for Scientific Creation http://www.creationscience.com Christian Answers network http://www.christiananswers.net | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Denise, creation scientists see the passages you were quoting as referring to a dinosaur. They believe that man and dinosaurs were living at the same time. You will likely find some interesting articles about that on the Answers in Genesis website or the Christian Answers Network site. | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Well said Bill. I couldn't agree more.Thanks for that input. Weither God took 6 literal 24 hr. days to create the earth or took 30,000 years(or whatever) does not change for me the fact that it was all very well thought out and intricately designed beyond the capabilities that any human could ever design it. When I ride my motorcycle through our majestic Rocky Mountains on a beautiful summer day, I am always in awe of the awesome beauty of God's handiwork. I am always lead into a wonderful time of praise and worship of such an awesome God. His love and power is so overwhelming as I experience with all my senses, the majestic beauty of creation that I never even once am troubled with the question of how old this earth really..... is. I just enjoy it to the fullest I possibly can and thank Him over and over for the privilage I have to experience His creative power while I thunder up the mountain passes on my bike smelling the smells, experiencing the wind, and seeing the unobstructed beauty. Often I imagine Jesus on the back seat of my bike, hair blowing, smiling from ear to ear, enjoying it all with me. The freedom I experinece at those times is just a little bit of the freedom I have experienced in Christ every day since coming to an understanding of the new covenant and "resting in Christ". Praise God! He is awesome! Sorry I got off the topic a wee bit but it just came out. | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
By the way, thanks Lydell for those websites. I will look them up. I do not have a scientific mind ( as you can tell)but I appreciate the hard work they do and enjoy reading their findings and conclusions. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thanks for the websites, Lydell. The age of the earth, I suspect, is something like the rapture: we really don't know for sure when it will happen, but it will. We really don't know How and When the earth and life came to be, but IT DID! The age of the earth, I think, should not be a divisive issue. I actually can see compelling arguments on both sides. Old age, though, does not, in my opinion, negate creation. After all, as Paul said, Nothing was made without Him that has been made. Still, I find it wonderful that we can engage in these inquiries without fearing we are spurning truth. God is ceartainly bigger than our fears or our questions! In Jesus, Colleen |
