| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dennis R., I read your letter in the current issue of The Signs. Good letter. Do any of you out there in Cyberland regurally read The Signs? In my community there are several magazine racks where folks can grab a free issue. I usually get one and read it. It has gotten in the past several years very SDA radical. There was one recent issue with the cover saying, "Who is Michael the Archngel"? The article then went on too imply but didn't come rightout and state for fact that Michael turned into Jesus. Another recent Signs had the cover, "Who is The Beast"? And, went on to imply but didn't come right out and state it is the Catholic Church. The current issue has a cover that says, "Who is Antichrist"? The Signs is a real fear producing magazine and just reeks of cultism in what it promotes and teaches. Any of you out there noticed this lately? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I have seen it, but cannot stop rolling my eyes, shaking my head, and sighing long enough to read it. I am curious, did they bring up the 666 calculation on VICARIVS FILII DEI? I always chuckle when I see that. You see, I was a math major in college, and I am very familiar with numerical manipulation. This one is one of the classic mathematical deceptions of all times. Yeah, if you follow the their technique, it adds up. However, that is not all there is to this calculation. The set up to this calculation is based on at least a half-dozen distortions, unfounded presumptions, and outright falsehoods. | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Thanks Susan. I only wish they hadn't published just the first paragraph. I worked hard to make my points and not sound too harsh while keeping within the word-limit they declared in the magazine. The one paragraph they did publish sounded more stern than the whole letter did as a package -- and of course, they managed to avoid the points I was really trying to make, too. I guess I shouldn't be surprised -- but I was disappointed... I try to avoid SDA publications as much as possible these days because usually they just end up making me mad! (I'm sad for the people who are falling for all that junk, and angry that there are people who keep propagating it...) Unfortunately, my dear mom subscribes to Signs for us -- and when I saw the brazen headline "When We'll Judge God", there was no way I could keep silent. There had been many times I'd come just to the edge of writing concerning some horrible misrepresentation -- but this one was a tidal wave that swept me over the brink. Yes, I think they practice fear-mongering in their effort to gain more adherents -- just as any cult does. Remember all those elaborate scare-the-heck-out-of-you paintings that were always used at the Evangelistic Series/Revelation Seminars?? Those used to give me nightmares when I was little!! Jerry, I always got a big kick out of that, too. I have seen so many different numbers-tricks like that. Have you seen anyone make Hitler into The Beast? Let's see if I can remember this: Since 666 is a three-digit number, you have to use three-digit numbers in your "interpretation". So, the first three-digit number is 100 -- and that would equal "A". 101=B, 102-C...125=Z. Therefore: H = 107 I = 108 T = 119 L = 111 E = 104 R = 117 Total 666! If you are creative enough, I'm sure that you could prove that YOU are the Antichrist!! Anyone want THAT "honor"?? I'm so glad to be free to seek truth with my eyes open -- and not have to try to force everything to fit into Ellen's 150-year-old mold!! Thanking Jesus for MEANING IT when He said "It is finished"! Den<>< | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Still using their technique, even more absurd. IESVS CHRISTVS FILII DEI (do you wonder why I am skeptical of this math?) ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE Add 'em up. Might as well be anyone. Jerry | ||
| Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider) |
Hi Dennis, When I used to get the Signs that my Mom sent to me, there would be a great deal of agitation over untruths I read. My husband suggested I put it in the circular file, and not read it. But, I would protest, my Mom had purchased the subscription. One day it dawned on me that the magazine should not be in the house. It brought nothing of value. So I cut out our address and taped it to a piece that simply said, please do not send this to us anymore, Thanks. That was it, no more anger, tears, or anxiety. You might want to try that. It also worked on the Review. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Hey Dennis, Can you post the article, I wont be going near any 'Signs' unless there happens to be one when I visit my mom for Christmas. Or is it on line somewhere? They're gonna judge God????? What is up with THAT? I've been informed too that they don't like Bush at all. I've been warned and sent tapes on how horrible he is, even possibly the AC you know. I take every opportunity I get to stress how much I like him. (that's not nice is it ;) ) | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I'm taking a Bible sudy now on the Revelations. We have a wonderful texbook. For the first time in my life Reveations makes sense to me. The study I'm taking is a 12 session class. The retired Lutheran minister giving the class has condenced this study into 12 sressions. He took the long version of it-the three year college class on Revelations What's that? Six semesters or eight quarters, depending if the college is on a semester or quarter system. Nonetheless, it seems to me like the Signs has really gotten warped. And, yes, I remember the pictures. When I was in th grade in Fresno Adventist Academy my teacher had a roll of those pictures that she could turn one over and then here would be another. There must have been 20 or so of these huge pictures on that roll She would start at the first one and work through to the last one. The entire set gave a pictorial of "the time of trouble for the good and faithful SDA's", to armageddon, the coming of Jesus with all those ngels blowing their trumpets, to the annailation of the wicked and then on to the life everlasing on the new earth. Those pictures were ery scary! | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
I remember reading in, I'm not sure what book/article now, that someone pointed out 'Ellen Gould White' added up to 666 with the Roman Numeral value too. I am so thankful not to have to depend on all these calculations, but to be able to focus on the Truth now. Thank you all for your help. Even though I don't post a lot, I sure learn from all the topics being discussed. :-) Sabra, I too, have heard some local Adventists comment on how "bad" President Bush is...That has really surprised me. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Why don't they like President Bush? Please explain | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Susan, I think they are scared to death of anyone who steps into a prominent public office who has the courage to openly declare their faith in God. After all, they might someday go too far and violate the "Constitutional Doctrine of Separation of Church and State"... Which, by the way, cannot be found in our Constitution -- no matter how hard you look! If the President is a Christian, he might be the one to usher in the dreaded Sunday Laws!! In short, it all comes down to their paranoid conclusion that someday all of Christianity is going to "persecute" them because they keep the Sabbath. It's a vital part of the Adventist fabric. Sabra, I need to run to work right now before I'm late. I've scanned in the Signs article -- I'll e-mail it to you. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Its funny how warped your thinking gets when you are in the SDA church. From the outside looking in now all the junk we believed seems just as the Bible says nonsense. Most other churhs are glad the president is christian oh but not the SDA church. I have not heard this about them not liking him being in there but I have not really kept in contact with many. I want to praise God that now my parents know we are not attending the church anymore they took it pretty good. I am glad that is over now I feel really free. Well hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving. I will keep all of you in prayer who will be visiting with their SDA families. Thanks for your support Terry | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Well, my mom sent me 5 tapes from her campmeeting and I thought if I listened to them maybe she would listen to some of mine. I got part way through the second one and felt like puking. The speaker was saying how Bush's brother converted to Catholicism to get the FL vote and how Bush is involved in all sorts of vatican stuff. Way out there if you ask me, but of course, I've been decieved-lol. I did some research a while back into the Blue Laws and did you know that the constitution was put into effect partly to protect from those laws? The Anglicans were the ones making those laws and finally our leaders stood up and said they had come to this country to avoid religious persecution and they started promoting religious freedom. Interestingly, the 5 day work week was started to accomodate the many Jews that were coming to this country as well as taking Sunday of for Christians. At least that was what I read when reseaching. Another fact the SDA church needs to get a grip on is that Bush is very pro-Israel and American evangelicals are very pro-Israel so why would they keep the Jews from going to church on Saturday--duh! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Sabra, You said your mother agreed that: ìif I listened to them maybe she would listen to some of mine.î If that is more or less what she said including some form of ìmaybe,î I wonder if it did or will turn out similar to the way my wife made that sort of promise. At least two or three times, there was some sort of agreement where ìif I would . . . then she would . . .î Her side never came to pass. Usually, it was side-stepped. For example: She: ìWe can discuss our different beliefs anytime!î Me: ìOK, when.î She: ìHow about (some date at least a week from now)î Me: ìGreat.î A day goes by. Me: ìSo, what area should be the first subject?î She: ìAnything you want.î Me: ìHow about Godís covenants from the old and new Testaments?î She: ìOK. But I may need to ask my pastor to be there so he can help me bring up the best evidence.î Me: ìNo problem, I might find someone, too.î She: ìFine.î Another day goes by. Me: ìDid you contact your pastor.î She: ìNo. You contact him.î Me: ìSure, but why donít you want to arrange it?î She: ìWell, the conversation is just between you two. I will just be listening.î Me: ìNo, this was to be a conversation between you and me. He was just supposed to be a resource.î She: ìI never agreed to that. Why donít you want to talk to him?î (Stalemate.) Sound familiar? Jerry | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Insideoutsider -- Thanks for the advice. Actually, I included a request in my letter to Signs asking that they cancel my subscription... I've received two more copies since then, and expect the next one to arrive any day now... I also finally confronted my mom with a respectful request that she not subscribe me again in the future -- but that turned into a three-hour shouting match... I can't win. I do try to ignore the magazines I get these days (I still get the Northwest Pacific Conf. Gleaner six years after moving away from Washington...) But when the BOLD Headline in that issue offered discussion on "WHEN WE'LL JUDGE GOD", I couldn't help it. Sabra -- with their utterly irrational paranoia over the Catholic Church, it doesn't matter HOW weak the connection is -- they'll make an earth-ending issue out of it somehow... Anything that succeeds in taking their focus off of Christ's finished attonment, and the work of taking THAT message to those who don't know, must make Satan rub his hands in glee. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
You know what cracks me up the most? They have no idea just how alike the SDA's and Catholics are. I have 2 Catholics that I correspond with-debate would be a better word-and all I hear is how they are the true church, how they have the final authority, they are the remnant, if they left Catholism they wouldn't go to heaven, but since I don't know any better I might go, they don't have assurance of salvation, they put the Eurachrist and other strange doctrine before the cross. They could be sister religions! Did I mention they are both VERY arrogant! I think I have found a point of interest for my mother. She is intringued with Israel prophesy, she had no idea why the Jews are going back to Israel, why the Christians are supporting them, all of the prohesies of the land becoming fertile and the desert too. I don't frankly know what the SDA church teaches about all of that, I know they think they are Israel but how are they explaining all of these signs? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, they ignore the signs. They believe that Israel is un-Christian (which it is at the moment!) and that it cannot play any significant role in eschatology because they are not SPIRITUAL Israel. All the prophecies, they say, are either somehow connected to Spiritual Israel at the end of time, or they are "conditional" prophecies which will never come to pass because israel failed to meet God's standards. The events in Israel are interesting but meaningless from an Adventist point of view. They see the Christians' interest in them as just one more way the Christian world has misinterpreted Daniel and Revelation. The "judging God" idea is the current interpretation of the investigative judgment. They now call it the pre-advent judgment, and they say that our records are being investigated to show the watching universe that God has been just in forgiving the saved and condemning the lost. During this pre-advent judgment, our loyalty to God will exonerate him in the eyes of the watching universe who might otherwise think God had manipulated or coerced us into submission. Our obedience and commitment to Jesus and his commandments will vindicate God in the eyes of the watching worlds. They will need to watch and see our loyalty because they will have questions about whether God has been fair or not. We will be the proof, ultimately, that God is fair. Many also say that this public investigation of God's motivation will continue during the millenium when, they say, the saved will go to heaven with Jesus for 1,000 years while Satan is "bound" by being kept on an uninhabited earth. During this 1,000 years, they say, we will be able to ask God all our questions about why our loved ones didn't make it to heaven. I read one SDA author who said God owes us answers to all our questions, and he will have to answer us to our satisfaction that he was just in his judgments. God is ultimately FAIR, they say, and he will be obligated to prove his fairness to us. I personally believe that asserting God's fairness and his obligation to us puts us in a position dominant over God. God is SOVEREIGN, not "fair" as we understand fairness. He sees all; we see our limited lives in a three-dimensional world. God IS just and merciful; the Bible is clear about those qualities. But fair? To insist that God owes us explanations of his fairness is to reduce him to a human-like creature. No matter how they try to dress up the IJ, it always comes out demeaning God and subverting Christ's finished work. I am so grateful for Jesus and for the cross and the resurrection, and I am so glad that as Christmas approaches I can truly rejoice in the Baby of Bethlehem and the Man of Galilee! Colleen | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Susan2, I've been known to take a Signs or two or... out of those racks myself. But only because I realize the proper place for them is IN the circular file. If I take one and put it there immediately, it is one less for some poor unsuspecting person to get their hands on. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, Colleen. I have also heard this "morphed IJ." Like I always say ;) Never change the conclusion, just reword it, rename it, and change the facts. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hey ya'll, you know that reaction everyone has when you are watching a scary movie and the hero of the movie is about to go into a room where you know the danger is waiting for him? Betcha I can make everyone here shout, "don't go in there!" Last week a new member of our church had stopped me after a service and brought up our being former SDA. He said that he had discovered 3ABN and said with some excitement that he had really been interested in some of the programs he had seen, that they seemed so "Christ-centered". What...what was that sound I just heard?! We, of course, filled him in on the rest of the story of what wasn't said in the programs he had watched. He was really appalled, saying several times with shock "she said WHAT?" when we were giving him some of the EGW quotes. Don't you just love these "happenstances"? ha | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dear Colleen, What you wrote about us humans being ble to tell God the He must explain to the saved answers to our satifaction of our questions nearly gave me the jitters. We don't tell God what we expect of Him! It's the other way around and those SDA's best begin understanding just who is supposed to answer to Who! Now, Sabra, the Eucharist IS NOT a strange doctrine. The wine of the Eucharit IS the blood of Christ and the bread IS the body of Christ. I don't know how this happens and I never will. That is why the Eucharist is one of the Mysteries. You can read it for yourself in the Bible. Four times Jess tells his desciples to take the bread and eat, for this IS my body and to take the cup and drink for this IS my blood. I don't think it can be any more clear than that. I once took communion at a 7th-day Baptist church. The minister spent much time stressig that the bread and grape juice were only symbols and not the real deal. The idea of the bread and liquid (grape juice? Jesus says WINE) being only symbolic to me seems so irreverant. The Eucharist is THE MOST SARED part of the worship service. We come before the alter of our Lord and Savious with open hands in all hunbleness ready to partake of this sacred SACAMENT in a soul-cleansing and spirit upifting ceremony taking Jesus at his word. We leave the alter fresh and renewed KNOWING we have been forgiven and we life in His grace and His mercy is upon us. It is the part of the worship service I most long for. My mother insists The Lord's Supper (most protistant churchs don't even acknowledge the Eucharist They undermine the sacredness o it by calling it The Last Supper) is to be done only once per year and then only on Passover. However, Jesus said, "whenever you do this do this in rememberance of me". The Echarist is the most awsome and the most wonderful time of the service! |
