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Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you know how "they say" that body language might be more honest that speech? This ties into the concept that "actions speak louder than words."

Recently, it occurred to me that the visual symbolic aspects of the Seventh-day Adventist church give some clues on their true outlook on theology which is in conflict with some of the things they say to make themselves look "evangelical."

I am currently studying the subject of church symbols with respect to theology of specific denominations. Of course, this study focuses on the Seventh-day Adventist church in comparison to other denominations.

My current working hypothesis is this: The theology of the Seventh-day Adventist church greatly diminishes the importance of the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ when compared to other denominations. Further, despite statements that appear to mirror the theology of other denominations regarding salvation and atonement, their symbolic treatment of the Cross with other evidence shows their minimal regard for these events and beliefs.

Before I get too far into this, I thought I would ask people here to remark on the subject to see if I am completely off base in my assumptions.

This subject came up when I went to an Adventist church and noticed the main symbol in the chancel area. It came as no surprise that it was a depiction of the tables of the covenant at Horeb with the fourth commandment greatly enlarged. I thought about this and tried to remember if I had ever seen a large Cross prominently displayed in any of the half-dozen Adventist churches I have visited. I could not think of any. To be sure, there were small Crosses on the hymnals, on the hymn list board, and other places. However, the Cross was nowhere near as prominently displayed as other symbols.

Then I looked at the official SDA logo. Sure, there is a Cross in it. However, it is by far the smallest of the three main elements of the logo. Further, it is almost hidden in the crease of the book image. If one looks at the official narrative, one sees the following descriptions for each element:

1. The Bible is the "foundation of our beliefs."
2. The Cross is the "central theme of our faith."
3. The Flame points to the "ultimate focus of our faith."

By that could I reasonably transpose and say what the Cross is not? The Cross is not the "foundation of our beliefs." The Cross is not the "ultimate focus of our faith." Maybe that is a little to far to take it. However, I wonder if it might be true.

So, I wonder if people here could help me by commenting on this subject. Is my experience where I did not see a prominent Cross a common, rare, or predominant experience? What does everyone remember about the decorations in Adventist churches? Do you think I am missing anything here? Is this a reasonable approach and initial hypothesis?

I can say more, but I will stop here. There is much more research ahead.

What do you think?

Jerry
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember growing up, the only place that a cross appeared in any of the SDA churches that I was familiar with was on top of the "Church Flag" staff. And of course, on the Church Flag itself.

If memory serves me correctly, the symbol of their organization used to be three angels, with NO depiction of the cross whatever. It would appear that this new symbol is in itself, an attempt to disguise themselves in a more "evangelical" mode.

In His Grip
<><
Thomas
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you're right, Thomas. I remember being unofficially told (as in my parents or some local authority figure told me!) that the cross was too much a Catholic symbol. They always used the cross, and they were the anitchrist, so we were not going to venture into cross territory. Besides, the Catholics had almost made an idol out of the cross. We were not going to do that. I remember very few if any actual words that I heard in the explanations; I mostly remember the feeling I had that the cross was faintly unclean and slightly pagan, and to worship in the presence of a cross was akin to worshiping before a graven image. It was a popish symbol, a symbol of Babylon similar to keeping Sunday.

One of the first pieces of jewelry Richard gave me after we decided to leave was a really beautiful small gold cross. It is very significant to me for reasons that are hard to explain, although I'll bet many of you here can understand them!

Praise Jesus for the cross!

Colleen
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a good time of the year to remind our SDA friends that without the Cross....and Easter Sunday morning, the birth would have been meaningless. That ought to make for some interesting Christmas dinner conversation!


In His Grace.
<><]
Thomas
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What in incrediby interesting topic! When I was a kid the cross was NOWHERE to be found on any SDA property or book, or even on a flag in the church. I guess I was already a teenager and a large SDA church was brand new built in a town called Bakersfield. They had a cross put on the top of the church. This caused great controversery among some of the more radical members, who mostly switched to the SDA church across town that did NOT have a cross anywhere on the property. One of those who switched because she truly believed that the cross is a satanic symbol and refused to be in the presence of a cross was my favorite aunt. Getting off the subject a bit, I recently went to the SDA church with my mom. Someone in the SS class was ragging Catholics because he felt Catholics make too big a deal out of Mary. Basically he was saying, yeah, she was a good woman and all but she was nothing special. I was just about to unzip my lip when a real SDA lady who has her membership there read the pregnancy story of Mary where the angel of the Lord says that she will be called blessed by men throughout the ages. The SDA man said it wasn't because Mary was anyone special it was only because she was carrying Jesus in her womb. The lady said God would only pick the very best woman on earth to be the mother to our Lord and Saviour. The man said Jesus was not our Lord and Saviour until he passed the test of living sin free and He did not know he was going to be raised from the tomb until after it had happened.Sadly, just when SS was getting interesting the bell rang an I didn't get to see those two duke it out. I have been in the SDA pastors office and there is no cross in there. There are those three trumpet playing flying angels. My next icon purchase I'm hoping will be a St. Francis of Asissi birdbath. Do SDA's use a fishsymbol on their cars, etc. to show their Christian belief? Has anyone ever looked?
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, he wasn't our Savior until he passed the test of living sin-free?! There are so many implications in that beliefóand I know that man is not alone in this belief.

One of the major implications that strikes me is that the belief that Jesus had to pass a test strongly suggests that he is not seen as God. His humanity played a much more important role in his life on earth, according to SDA theology, than did his divinity. It is becoming more and more clear to me that although Adventists say Jesus is God and one with God, on the bottom line they don't mean the same the the Christian community means. ADventist's early Arian roots are showing. Jesus is less than God and capable of failure.

To say that Jesus was not our Lord and Savior until he passed the test is really heresy. He was the Lamb slain from the creation of the world. He created us already knowing he would die for us. That kind of sovereignty cannot coexist with a man trying to pass the test so he can qualify as our Savior.

I'm so thankful for Jesus and his finished work!

Colleen
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does the word Arian mean?
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 6:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

arian

\A"ri*an, a. [L. Arianus.] Pertaining to Arius, a presbyter of the church of Alexandria, in the fourth century, or to the doctrines of Arius, who held Christ to be inferior to God the Father in nature and dignity, though the first and noblest of all created beings. -- n. One who adheres to or believes the doctrines of Arius. --Mosheim.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your thoughts so far, everyone.

Thomas: Interesting about the change in logos. I wonder when that happened. I will need to research that. If it happened in the 1950ís, it might be related to the so-called ětheologia crucisî movement mentioned by Paulsen in his ěTheological Landscapeî speech earlier this year. If it happened in the 1980ís, I wonder if it is part of an attempt to appear more ěevangelical.î

Colleen: The topic of ěresidual Arianismî seems to come up often in my research. I have read many documents on that subject as it progressed through the years. It seems to be very hard for SDAís to make a clean break, despite loud protestations that they ědonít believe that anymore.î Certainly, what you said about Christ ěpassing a testî is in clear opposition to the standard trinity doctrine of other denominations.

By the way, some people confuse the word Arian with Aryan. Though they are pronounced the same, they are completely different concepts. Aryanism is most recently a social theory of racial purity. Arianism is as stated above.

The Cross seen as a ěpagan symbolî is strangely similar to JW theology. (What a surprise!)

To say that the Cross is an idol brings up an interesting thought. In my opinion, the second commandment is a direct prohibition of animism. That is, in the ancient world many religions worshipped inanimate objects. In these religions, objects were a god or occasionally contained the god. The adherents worshipped the object as a god. To me, what God was saying was something like, ěI am omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. You cannot comprehend my appearance, how I exist and where I exist. Do not try. Because, if you do, you are limiting me to your totally inadequate ability to understand.î The real issue in the commandment and the New Testament recapitulations is the worship of the image.

I do not agree with those who say, ěany image is an idol.î The writers of the Bible used Symbolism extensively. Most of the time, it was verbal. However, I can think of many visual symbols in the Old Testament. The serpent of brass in Numbers 21:9 is one. The Ark of the Covenant is another. The Tables of the Testimony is another.

Certainly, SDA churches have pictures of Jesus. Personally, I think that when the SDA church assigns the title of ěSpirit of Prophesyî to the written works of EGW, it smacks of worship and animism. I may be a little harsh, but that is my opinion.
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seventh-day Adventists were Arians until the mid-1890s. This means that all their doctrines were formulated under that heresy. Uriah Smith, John Andrews, James White, and many other Adventist pioneers died as Arians. Consequently, the Cross is minimized in SDA theology to this very day. The legacy of Arianism permeates Adventist dogma. For example, Dr. Graham Maxwell's moral influence theory (Adventist version) has gained notable acceptance among educated Adventists. Under this theory, the Cross was not even necessary, etc.

Jerry, speaking of symbols, the large College View SDA Church here in Lincoln, Nebraska has Ellen White pictured in its $100,000.00 stained-glass windows. This is probably the only SDA church in the world that has Ellen White depicted in stained glass in their sanctuary (worship center). Interestingly, one of the five SDA churches here in Lincoln actually has a Cross as a background behind the rostrum. I personally don't know of any other Adventist church that displays a large Cross like that. No local SDA churches display the Cross on the exterior of the building. So, two SDA churches here in Lincoln are unique, one-of-a-kind types. The pulpit that Ellen White preached from while visiting the old, wood-framed College View church, is still used on special occasions to highlight the importance of their prophetess. Paradoxically, even though Adventists are hard on Catholics for having various relics and saints in stain-glass windows, Adventists delight in their own relics and depict their prophetess in colorful windows. By the way, a Catholic lady designed these stained-glassed windows for the College View SDA Church. It is no surprise, therefore, that after her studying Adventist beliefs and interviewing several devout Adventists, she felt Ellen White should be depicted in the stained-glass. Obviously, she could sense the importance that Ellen White holds in Adventism.

Ellen White must have rolled in her grave last Sunday morning. Decorators arrived, at the College View SDA Church, to put up beautiful, lighted Christmas trees with matching lighted wreaths on the walls. I well remember the first time, several years ago, when they had about five Christmas trees on the rostrum without any decorations or lights. The trees really looked plain without any decorations or lights. Each year thereafter the decorations increased. It has been interesting and somewhat amusing to observe the evolution of the Christmas tree in Adventism (smile). Ellen White said that the only reason for a Christmas tree to ever be in church was to hang money on it as a fundraising, goal device.

My conservative SDA parents never allowed a Christmas tree in their home. They felt that such a "heathen" practice might affect their salvation in some remote way. However, right in front of their farm home, they decorated three, large evergreens with multi-colored lights. Even though they would never think of having a Christmas tree inside their home, my parents considered it acceptable to occasionally have Santa Claus come to their house to distribute the holiday gifts. Legalism is never consistent. When growing up in western North Dakota, we would enjoy attending Christmas programs at Lutheran churches during the Christmas season. Of course, our German SDA church did not even mention the word "Christmas" during any services. The same held true for Easter. By observing Christmas and Easter, they felt that this would somehow dilute or sidetrack the significance of the weekly Sabbath.

In awe of Calvary,

Dennis J. Fischer
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Dennis, What is "the doctrine of moral influence" according to Graham Maxwell? What is it to everyone else? I've never heard that term used in any setting in conversation with anyone of any denominational ties. I had wondered while readingthese posts how come the early Adventists were all into white power. Then I learned the difference between Aryianism and Arianism. I kept thining, "Do the non-white Adventists know the white power background of their church"? Than's for clearing that up. My parents, too, never have had Christms tree believing it o be a pagan symbol. My entire childhood reeks if inconsistencies. We did not have the Cristmas tree in our house and I was totally taught it is a agan symbol and true Christians will have no part of it. Yet, every year my parents would drive at least once through Christmas Tree Lane in our city, a long street of very old, beautiful homes where the people who lived on that route would put up huge, and I do mean HUGE full yard and full hme decorations and ALL the huge old evergreen trees linig this bulivard were decoratd with holiday decorations. I was neer even once allowed to go out or Trick or Treeting because my parents wouldn't let me partisipate in a pagan holiday but then they always bought scads of candy to pass out to the kids that came to our door. And they wuld oooh and aaah over the childrens costumes telling them they looked so scary or so cute or so whatever. I always have wanted to ask my parents if they believe it is so wrong then how come they don't tell the kids that come to their door that they don't partisipate in Holloween and as such don't pass out goodies. Here I am though 51 years old and still think it would be too disrespectful and unkind to ask my parents those sorts of questions. I do remember though as a kid we were supposed to go door to door on Holloween asking for money for the missionaries. We wore name tags identifing ourselves a kids from the local SDA school. Most people were really nice and insisted we take some candy for ourselves too. Then the SDA church andschool started having what they called A Harvest Celebration fo the kids on Holloween night. My parents let me go once. Because the Adventists had apple bobbing and hot bubbling cider (witche's brew but they did not dare call it that) and other goodies that are traditionally part of a Holloween celebration, my parents never even et me go back to the Adventist version of it and they did nnot even dress in costumes, it was just a party. On Easter morning every year as a child my mom would hide pretty colored eggs and I would hunt for them with other kids in the yard and we'd have baskets full of fake grass and candy. But, I was taught it was o.k. to do the secular aspects of those holday but it was a sin to apply a Christian meanng or signifance to any of the holidays, such as Christmas and Easter. My daddy passed away tw months ago and just several months before he died on Easter morning he made a comment about it being a day that the heathens go out to the beach at sunrise to worship the sun. My ad was 93 when he died. He was born into the SDA church and never checked ut any other denomination. When he used the word "heathen" he ment all non-SDA Christians (except other Sabbath-keeping Christians). I still can't make any rhyme or reason out of it so I don't even try anymore. It's impossible to make sense out of it and I get physically trying. There is a SDA church down in the LA area that I pass on the freeway whenever I go down that way. I've always wanted to ask someone if the SDA's bought that church from an Orthodox denomintion or maybe a Methodist group. Way up high above the church is a cross. A real od looking ross. It has a circle atthe top with the top part of the cross being surrounded by the circle. The church is very old and I think is made of large stones. But, the sign identifies it as SDA. Iguess there is some room or individuality within the SDA denomination. After all, Little Richard is a SDA pastor in one of the churchs in Hollywood. I wonder if they rock out in that churh? Yeah, he wentto Oakwood College and becae a SDA pastor.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember when Graham Maxwell's ideas became well-known and popular here in the Loma Linda area. I remember hearing him say that God is by nature a forgiving God, and Jesus's death had nothing at all to do with the fact that God was willing to forgive us. He would have forgiven us even if Jesus had not died because that's God's nature. He is one who has made it popular in Adventism to call God our Friend.

I know devotees of Maxwell who say God would never kill the wicked. They kill themselves by removing themselves from God, the source of life. God is the source of all that humans understand as good; he would never kill or destroy. He is Life. Jesus came to be our example and to show us how to live a loving, forgiving life that cares for all people. In Maxwell's theology, Jesus primary reason for coming was not to die. It was to teach us and show us God's love.

The 1888 Study Commmittee says that Jesus allowed us to kill him to demonstrate to us how evil we had become. Jesus' death was not the central reason and focus of Christ's coming; rather, it was an ancillary object lesson to convict us that we needed help to become righteous.

Dennis is right; the Arian background of the church has colored all its doctrines. In fact, the Clear Word sold at Adventist Book Centers (which includes EGW commentary woven into a paraphrase of the Biblical text) translates numerous passages referring to Jesus in such a way that it diminishes the recognition of his divinity. Although they say the right words about Jesus, Adventists really have a "different Jesus", a "different gospel", and a "different spirit". (See 2 Corinthians 11). Those three things always go together.

Praising Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

Colleen
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found it interesting that the SDA congregation that I grew up in remodeled the front facade in the 1980's. Prior to this there were no symbols of any kind on the church. The remodel was to put up a huge facade of three angels each holding three trumpets. I asked one time 'why? why not a cross?. The answer was that the cross, as used today, is a Catholic invention and that the 'Three Angels' embrace/encompass the idea of the cross and so much more---such as the investigative judgement, the imminent advent of Christ...etc. From what I've seen, it looks like the SDA's have adopted the 'Three Angels' as their symbol---there is even the 'Three Angels Network'!
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought those three trumpet blowing angels WERE/ARE the official logo of the church. In the pastors office just up the street from me he has no cross anywhere in his office but he has a plaque on his wall of those angels. Out here in California our culture is heavelly influened by the Hispanics, particurally folks of Mexican descent. In the countries to our south, again especially Mexico big murals painted on walls are quite common as well as large spray painted scenes on their cars and trucks. There is an Adventist fellow who attens one of the Spanish speeking churchs in the LA area and on the back of his truck he has a spray painted scene of Jesus coming down in the clouds of glory and to the side above Jesus are those three trunpet playing angels. It's a totally cool looking picture. I read an interview with him and he says people ask him about him all the time so as such it's a great wittessening tool and he's bringing in new Spanish speeking converts because they ask him about the picture on his truck.
Derrell (Derrell)
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the 1930s, the SDAs purchased a massive Dutch Reformed church facility in Harlem, NY. This church was built of black granite in 1868 in late Gothic style with towering spires topped with crosses, gargoyles glaring down from corners, and many inside and outside niches with statues of various apostles and church leaders. The crosses and statues were immediately removed and destroyed because of their traditional Christian symbolism. The gargoyles remain!
Derrell (Derrell)
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Loneviking, there is a Three Angels Broadcasting Network (3ABN). This is an Adventist owned media group which owns 88 television stations and 2 radio station in the U.S., several broadcast stations in the Philippines and Papua New Guinea, they also reach tens of millions of households through cable TV, and are on 5 satellites around the world with television and radio. Next month, they are launching a Spanish TV network. All of these mediums broadcast Seventh-day Adventist programming around the clock, 7 days a week. check it out at www.3abn.org
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan 2,

You saying that you thought the three angels "WERE/ARE the official logo of the church" is quite interesting to contemplate. Although the official literature and web site designate the "open Bible/small (empty) cross/huge flame encircling the world" as the official logo, there is a strong duality in the description of the significance. The description notes that the flame represents the Holy Spirit, but makes sure to note the three "tongues" and the three lines ascending from the top. It is made clear that these represent the three angels.

In a sense, the logo presented as "symbolic of our (SDA) beleifs" seems mostly for external consumption.

Yet you can see the subliminal message.

What is the biggest element? The Cross? No way.
Is the Cross the second largest? Nope.

The "three tongued flame" is, by far, the biggest element. Then comes the Bible (think Ten Commandments).

So, you could say, perhaps the three angels are STILL the logo, just a little obscured by the "public face" of the SDA church.

Just a thought.

Jerry
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 7:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How right you are Jerry! These posts made me think of something else.

Earlier this year, in Ohio where we lived at the time, at Easter services at my church, simple wooden crosses were passed out. My daughter and I each got one. I took them home and wanted to put them up over a couple of doors in the house. My wifes' immedieate reponse was 'Why? We're not Catholics'! I said something to the effect that 'No we're not Catholics, but we ARE Christian and the cross is a Christian symbol'. Anyway, the crosses went up over the doors, and then we moved from Ohio back to SoCal.

Surprise! One of the first and most easily found items that my wife packed away were those two crosses. She put one up over the fireplace mantle and one up over the door that we come in from the garage. I guess she likes those crosses now!!
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm courious, Loneviking, what is the denomination tht you and your daughter attend?
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Derrell, how interesting and revealing that the gargoyles remained while the crosses were removed from that granite cathedral! Gargoyles, as I believe was mentioned on this fourm recently, were images of demons designed to keep the evil spirits away from ancient Gothic cathedrals. The Adventists obviously felt more comfortable with the "graven images" of gargoyles than with the symbol of the cross. Such things are not accidental, although they may be subconscious!

Colleen
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan 2, at the time the church we belonged to was a Church of Christ (non-instrumental) that was really on fire. It turns out that they were (apparently) a bunch of heretics because when I moved and went looking for a local CofC like them I couldn't find one. The CofC here in Cal. are preeterists, believe in soul sleep, are very exclusivist and don't believe that the Holy Spirit actively works in peoples' lives today---which is a 180 from the church I belonged to in Ohio.

So, I'm going to the local Evangelical Free and so far I can't find much wrong with their teaching.......

Bill

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