| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
On another web forum there is a very heated discussion about the woman's role and place in the church. I have read some of the archived discussion here on this forum, but I had some questions that it didn't really address in my opinion. Maybe it did, but I guess I would like some current thoughts from the forum. I'll list the passages, even though I'm sure you know what they are, and I'll give my thoughts. 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 I am so glad, dear friends, that you always keep me in your thoughts and you are following the Christian teaching I passed on to you. But there is one thing I want you to know. A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God. A man dishonors Christ if he covers his head while praying or prophesying. But a woman dishonors her husband if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair. And since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, then she should wear a covering. A man should not wear anything on his head when worshipping, for man is God's glory, made in God's own image, but woman is the glory of man. For the first man didn't come from woman, but the first woman from man. And man was not made for woman's benefit, but woman was made for man. So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching. But in relationships among the Lord's people, women are not independent of men, and men are not independent of women. For although the first woman came from man, all men have been born from women ever since, and everything comes from God. What do you think about this? Is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering her head? Isn't it obvious that it's disgraceful for a man to have long hair? And isn't it obvious that long hair is a woman's pride and joy? For it has been given to her as a covering. But if anyone wants to argue about this, all I can say is that we have no other custom than this, and all the churches of God feel the same way about it. 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 Women should be silent during church meetings. it is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. if they have any questions to ask, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak during church meetings. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. For God made Adam first, and afterward made Eve. And it was the woman, not Adam, who was decieved by Satan, and sin was the result. But women will be saved through childbearing, and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty. My own personal thoughts on the topic: -- I have always read these passages in their proper context, and now with the advent of study Bibles, and background commentaries, there is a wealth of understanding to clear the air about these passages. While Paul's letters are filled with truths that we can apply today, I believe the immediate context of anything he wrote was to the church he wrote it to. The first two passages were addressed to the church at Corinth FIRST before it ever was circulated among other Christian believers. A quick glance through history shows that Corinth was a mess socially and morally, and much of this carried over to the church. Paul addressed divisions in the Corinthian church for much of the letter. In chapters 11 and 14, what we can get from what he stated is a recognition for reverence and respect in worship. The issues of head covering and silence I believe were more cultural than Paul proclaiming universal truth. The problem with the head coverings was in Corinth, not Upteenth Whatever Church of Nowhereville. -- Much of the argument about a womans proper role in the church tends to take these verses out of their context. While it was true for Corinth, it should also be true for today. However, taking it to its proper conclusion to me lets out an air that reaks of legalism. Imagine what our churches would be like... 1. There would have to be people at the front doors making sure that all women have their head properly covered before entering. This would be a precaution in case any public praying was done. 2. Ushers would have to constantly monitor the aisles to make sure than women did not speak. Any woman caught speaking would likely be thrown out of the church. 3. Women would be prohibited from not just teaching, but all forms of church leadership. Since leadership implies authority, we could not have a function in which a woman would be heading because that may possibly involve her leadership over a man. This involves youth ministry, children ministry, worship, weekly Bible study groups, and any and all social functions. (Colleen, sorry but you would be in direct violation because you have taught us many Biblical truth over the years.) It is my belief that placing such restrictions on woman today is not only demeaning, but completely denies a woman to use abilities that God gave her for the edification of the church. We are one church body, made of of people of both genders. God gave gifts to men and women alike. Submission and responsibility go both ways in a marriage relationship. Obviously, if one is not married, submission and responsibility wouldnt apply. As a husband, I feel a sense of duty to submit and be responsible to the needs of my wife and I would not dare tell her that she would not be allowed to teach me things that she's learned. That's sexist and bigotry. However, there are several denominational churches out there that do got that far. It makes no sense to me. The world over the last century has made great strides to allow women the ability to learn and advance themselves. Are we in the church going to let the world be better than us? Galatians 3:26-29 So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians - you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you. I really thought that meant what it says. Okay, enough of my going on. I am really upset about this whole thing and I could go on more, but I won't. Allow me to post my questions then, and the floor will be open to all. -- Am I completely off base with my interpretation of those passages or was Paul procliaming universal truth? -- Exactly what church offices is a woman allowed to hold, and if they are banned from certain offices, why? -- (For curiosity's sake) What's the Adventist position on this? (this question is secondary, and need not be answered immediately) Praising God for freedom, Joel | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I only have one comment & it is this: too bad the SDA's don't take those words of Paul seriouslly because if they did out would go EGW! | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Good point Susan! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The role of women in church is one of those subjects that doesn't inspire consensus in the Christian community. First, Adventists do not allow women to be ordained at the highest level of ordination. They do allow them, in some conferences, to be senior pastors of churches and, in some conferences, to receive the same pay as fully ordained men. That final level of ordination, however, is not allowed. North America in particular is upset about this rule, and there has been a strong "women's ordination" movement for over a decade. The great irony, of course, is the one Susan pointed out: EGW. All of this brings me to the role of women in the church we currently attend. First, not all Evangelical Free or other evangelical denominations see eye-to-eye with our pastoral staff. Second, my own opinion of the role of women in our church has changed since closely observing it in our church. Our pastor's wife, Elizabeth Inrig, is the national director of women's ministries for the EV Free church. She has a doctorate in Biblical Studies from Trinity University in Chicago and a master's degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. She is one of the best Bible teachers I've ever learned from. Here's the unusual thing: she does not believe that women should be pastors. She does believe that women can take leadership roles among women, and she also believes that women can teach men and women informally, as Priscilla and Aquilla taught Apollos. She does teach many Sunday morning classes which are well-attended by both men and women. The ironic thing about all this is that I've never been anywhere where women had more freedom and respect than they do at our church. A young woman (former SDA) who has been attending Trinity kept saying, during her first year attending, that she couldn't get over how much freedom and respect the women had at this church. There is none of the antagonism and jockeying for power between men and women that there is in Adventist churches. The principal which directs our church's stance is that men and women are equal in value and equally gifted by the Holy Spirit, but they have different roles. The Bible is clear that men are given a protective, empowering leadership role and women are given a helping, submissive role in marriage. None of this means women are "doormats" or "voiceless" or subservient. It simply means that men are to lead and love, and women are to help and respect. It sounds counter-intuitive, but the more Richard and I have taken these things seriously, the more free and nurturing our marriage has been. Similarly, watching how the pastoral staff and the elder board support women's ministry at our church and seeing growing numbers of women flourish and grow has convinced me that, if people approach men's and women's roles from a baseline of commitment to Jesus, the Biblical model is powerful. Paul's instruction to the Corinthians was addressing the problem of those recently converted pagan women behaving and dressing in a way that only "loose" women would. In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul was saying, essentially, that if women did not respect cultural norms for women, they could not expect anyone to take their prayers or prophecy seriously. I agree, Joel, that Paul's instruction to women was definitely colored by his culture. But, as Bill pointed out elsewhere on this forum, if we believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, we have to take seriously what he says. The Bible has several examples of women teaching or leading (remember the prophetesses Deborah and also Anna? Phillip's five daughters were also prophetesses. Further, in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul makes his "head covering" statement (definitely a cultural norm--only prostitutes went in public "uncovered") in a context of women praying and prophecying in meetings. He didn't say they should stop; he said, rather, that they had to behave and dress appropriately so they would be taken seriously. Somehow, however, it seems to work better when men bear the brunt and responsibility of top leadership. I've become convinced, though, that this model of church leadership (or even organization inside a family) would not work if those involved are not truly born again and continually submitted to God. I am convinced that one of the things God gives us when we are born again is the true gift of our masculinity or femininity empowered uniquely with His Spirit. Both men and women become more authoritative and secure when they allow Jesus to define their work and their roles. One of the biggest problems I see is the plethora of weak men and abrasive women that the past twenty or thirty years have produced. Men fear women, and women disdain men. This reality is not what God intended. Only the Holy Spirit can give men their true strength and leadership and give women their true authority and respectfulness. What I have witnessed among the marriages and organizational structure at our church has convinced me that the Biblical model does not threaten the personhood of women. Rather, when practiced by fully surrendered Christ-followers, it is empowering and freeing. It's a paradox, kind-of like freedom resulting from giving up to Jesus our right to control our lives is a paradox. Don't stone me--I'm not saying women should not preach or be pastors! I'm merely observing how one congregation works. I realize our church may be unique, but I also see that there is trust and confidence and empowerment among the men and women that is unlike anything I've seen in my past. I also know that as I have prayed that God would show me how to be submissive to Richard in the way He wants me to be, I've been able to trust Richard into God's hands instead of feeling compelled to meddle and nag. (Yes, nag!) On the flip side, as Richard has prayed (and has asked me to pray) that God would help him to be the leader He wants him to be, he has taken more responsibility for our family's spiritual and emotional well-being, and I have felt more and more nurtured and empowered to respond to the work God puts before me. I have to admit I'm a little nervous being so open about this subject, because I know it elicits powerful emotional responses. I also know that my growing conviction that Paul may have really been right in suggesting men's and women's roles are equal but different is pretty controversial. But I do praise God that he grows us and leads us and that he handles each of us uniquely. He is so good and faithful! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Colleen, Thank you for your response. I'm going to have to read over it a few times, but certainly was helpful the first go-round! I'm certainly not against clear Biblical instruction in the Bible. In addition I believe much of the general argument on this topic comes when the passages are removed from their proper context. This is the case in the forum I mentioned (which by the way I've ceased in contributing, its getting quite silly). Shortly after I posted on this topic, I read over the study notes on the topic that you have in the studies section of the site. Much of your response echoed what was written there. It certainly answers my querstions, but I'm going to have to delve into it more. Initially, I must say I was never really opposed to the men only leading church offices, my objection was towards women being prohibited from such a function. As i stated before, I believe that to be a hinderance to a womans role in building up the church. I can see how men pastoring and such tends to work more; on the whole men do tend to be letter leaders. of course not to be biased, but i believe that is part of the God given sense of masculinity he placed in us men. In the study notes, you make a great point that when we recognize who we are in Christ, the barriers of male and female are broken, but we do not lose our identity as men and women and our important functions withing the church (my paraphrase). I strongly agree. I have a very real problem with churches who go so far as to prohibit women from holding any role in the church whatsoever. To me, theyre no better than the Jews when they kept women behind screens in the synagoigue and in the outer court of the temple. As a man who understands my identity in Christ, i am offended by such practice. A woman deserves more respect than that. At our church, women are well treated, well respected, and publically honored for their work in building up the church. without them , our church would not be what it is. Obviously we dont all agree on the subject, but i think that in cases where there is more division, applying Pauls general principle of cultural respect inworship. i think possibly in areas where it may not be seen as acceptable for a woman to be behind the pulpit or in high church leadership, they should allow the men to lead so as to avoid division. In areas where the congregation is more lax, allow as they desire. certainly this not only allows us to keep our cultural uniqueness but our unity as well. I could be wrong in making such a bold proposal, but this is an open orum, and all comments are welcomed. Mind you, its almost 5am as im writng this, so please forgive the incoherence (and the numerous typos) Praising God for much needed sleep Joel | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
I agree, Colleen! Things do seem to run better "when men bear the brunt and responsibility of top leadership." I also have seen what you were talking about in your church, within the church I attend, and YES, I do agree with you. I feel it is Biblical. I see how God uses both men and women in varying ministries...all to accomplish His Glory. God bless, Janet | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
You know, it strikes me that all are saying that they have learned much about this since leaving Adventism. And that leaves me wondering if maybe we still have a way to go in our learning on the subject. I can agree that it seems, in my experience so far, to work better when men are at the top position of leadership at a church. However, I'm also willing to concede that maybe may understanding might still be limited by never having personally been in a church that was led by a woman. And I think there are some exceptions as, for instance, in a ministry that is principly to women. I'm thinking too of situations, for instance for women who have just gotten out of the Muslim religion or where missionaires are reaching out to Muslims. As many of you have said, if the Lord hadn't wanted women to be in leadership positions at times, then he certainly messed up by making some very gifted teachers who are women! We recently started Bible study groups on Sunday morning at our church, the pastor's wife leads one. My husband was assigned by the pastor to be her assistant teacher. He was a bit annoyed thinking that he might be the only man in the group. Turns out that half the people in the group are men who chose her group specifically because they have heard her preach before. Far different from the SDA's, huh! You know, our pastor has an airtight policy of never counselling with a woman alone. He's a very wise man in that! A woman in our church who went thru alot of troubles last year made a comment that "it is really unfair that a woman can't go talk to a pastor in private, that she has to have someone else there listening to her stuff." She agrees totally with his policy, but was just making a valid observation. I really wonder how a man in those groups who believe that women should never ever be in positions of leadership would feel if placed in the position of the woman who needs to council about extremely private matters having to go to a man to do so. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lydell, you make a very good point. Our pastor's wife is definitely on the pastoral staff at our church as director of women's ministries, although she personally refuses to be called a "pastor". (It's probably a semanitcs trick, though, because she functions as a pastor.) She does A LOT of counciling with women, and she and her husband have agreed that the things they hear in confidence in their offices they will not share even with each other. And as I mentioned, she often teaches Sunday classes which are well-attended by both men and women. I definitely believe there are leadership roles which only women can effectively fill. You mentioned another thing, Lydell, that has come into focus for me during the past two or three years, and that is the issue of "cross-gender discipling". Our church functions on the policy that women should mentor and disciple women, and men should mentor and disciple men. Teaching is one thing, but personal mentoring is another. I understand your pastor's policy about having someone else with him when counciling a woman (although I also understand the woman's observation above). I think there's a good reason why Paul wrote Titus 2 regarding older women mentoring younger women. There really is a lot to learn about this (and other related) subjects. Somehow, though, things make more sense than they did in Adventism. The powerful but somewhat hidden comptetition between the sexes in that church colored a lot of church politics. In Adventism, a "successful" woman had to function like a man in a man's world. In a true Christian community, a woman can be a strong and authoritative yet feminine person with leadership roles in her own right without feeling that she's having to beat men at their own game. It's all so interesting. I just praise God for giving us His work and for renewing us! Colleen | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Lydell, I have also understood, that if a person wanted to go to a prison to "minister", that they had to have a clergy tag. That would be another example of needing a woman pastor, to be able to visit with the women inmates. I appreciate your insights also. Janet | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Good point Janet. Our pastors wife for a long time didn't want to refer to herself as a "pastor". But her husband has always definitely seen them as being very much a team, that they are "pastor" together, although he obviously has the head role. They began their ministry in Australia as missionaries back in the 70's. She tells me that in Australia, the people she they knew never seemed to have a problem with the idea of a woman being a pastor. So I really have to wonder how much of our understanding may be colored by our own culture. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Colleen have you heard Hyveth Williams preach? I understand she is one of the main SDA pastors down your way. Everyone I know who has head her preach says she is just about the best or even the best Adventist pastor they have ever heard. I understand she has quite a few "groopies". I've heard she's really dynamic and very interesting, too. On Thanksgiving Eve my mom & I went to an interdenominational patrotic Thanksgiving service. The lady pastor from a local Esplisclipanion (sp!) church gave a sermon. It was a good one. I like it better when ministers wear the robes because then they don't seem to have gender, I'm not distracted by what they are wearing. I just focus on the message. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
About ministering to the inmates at the prisons. Nuns are allowed to do this if it is a nun that the inmate wants for his/her piritual advisor. For sure a nun is not a preist, yet they are allowed this position within the prison. Just courious how they get around this official pastor title to get in to the prisons. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
I was invited by two different SDA churches to be on their team for prison ministries (I guess since my background is not Mother Theresa and I could relate to the inmates). Infact, I was invited by one for the men and the other for the women. For me, it's a good thing I'm not married. I'd really have a hard time being the kind of wife that it describes in the Bible. I'm to big mouthed and stubborn to submit to any man. True story. Course, I don't submit to any woman either. I simply respect people for being IN Christ and see them all as equal to me, and me equal to them. My future husband to be, was informed of this, by me, and has no problem because he sees us as a team and not one over the other. Now, in church, any church, not just the SDA church, I've noticed that it is common for men to hold their gender over women and this gets my goat everytime! I think our culture in general, being patriarchal, has completely messed up my view on this matter. And although I can read what the Bible says, I also read were there is no Greek, no Jew, no slave nor free, no women or men, as we are equal. And that is the way I happen to see it as well. And remember too, that the ground that Jesus was Crucified on was level. I see this as a spiritual significance for me. Course, I've never married so how could I know what men are like once he's married the woman. I only know that divorce is 50/50 for some reason or another and I won't discount the fact that it is because the man was too domineering. A victim of our culture in the U.S. I'd like to meet a man who didn't one up me, especially when it comes to the Word of God. That would be a new thing for me to see. And I don't mean meet him so I can marry him, I simply mean talk to him one to one as equals. But this is my experience in life thus far. Perhaps God will show me something different as time passes. Maybe He won't. I can only say what I've experienced in 45 years and that's all I have to go on. But, I do have to say this. When it came time for my baptism, there was the man pastor and a woman assistant pastor. They asked me, "who would you like to baptize you?". And something in me didn't feel right about having a woman baptize me. Still I don't know what that could be except for perhaps God's Spirit directing me. Well, that's my input into this topic. Still, I see myself as an equal to any man on earth, no matter his title or letters behind his name. Same with any woman, no matter her title, education or letters behind her name. I don't see any above me except God Himself. And I don't see me above anyone else but submissive to God only. And we are all part of the "Holy priesthood" of believers according to Scripture. But God made me, so who can complain about His Handiwork? Peace. (this includes to all you men out there in cyberspace as well, of course and for sure!) Denise Gilmore, the one who doesn't know what is right on this matter. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
You made me think of something I saw that was crude and funny on a tee-shirt a man was wearing. I saw this close to 20 years ago and it's still crude and funny. A really ugly, disguesting, incredible obease man who was smoking and guzzeling booze right from the bottle in the parking lot at the market, he was totally yucky looking, nasty, dirty hair and just completrely unkept was wearing a tee-shirt that said, " I was made in the image of God". Ever since saw that man wearing that shirt I have contimplated that text. And, yes, I believe he was made in the image of God and then he went on and made a mockery of Gods creation and then insulted God even more with wearing that tee-shirt! | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Denise, "submission" doesn't mean that we aren't equal. Submission in marriage means we are both working towards the same goal, with the same vision. Think of the husband as "head" of the wife as in "head" of a corporation. Eventually there are times when one person has to cast the deciding vote in a disagreement over a decision to be made. The rest of the board gives all their best input and arguments for what they view to be the best decision. It would be incredibly foolish for the member of the board not to speak up if she sees the President inclined toward what she fears will be a foolish decision. And it is an incredibly foolish President who has a bullhead and isn't willing to listen to his advisors and consider what they have to say. But, in the end, it is still the President who has to make the final choice and bear the brunt of the responsibility for that choice. The same situation applies to the operation of a church. The pastor is the one who is finally answerable to God for what happens at the church. And you know, the disciples could have told Jesus all day long how they thought something should be done, but when it came down to it, he was the one who made the final decision. Remember, marriage is used as a picture of what our relationship with the Lord is like. Denise, you would really benefit by reading Joyce Meyers book on the topic. It sounds like you and she have a whole lot in common with your personality. That being the case, she can explain it to you better than anyone around. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
How wonderful is the leading of the Holy Spirit! I was looking over the recent posts about womenís roll and position in the church. It reminded me of all the scripture about responsibility and humility. I do not need to assert anything about gender submission or leadership. Searching for these verses lead me to Mark 9:35. Then I widened my view to more of the chapter. Look at these verses. In particular pay close attention to verses 38 ñ 41. I think this applies equally to leadership disputes between women and men as well as disputes between various ìremnantî churches and those they condemn for not following their teachings. Mark 9:33-42 [33] And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? [34] But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. [35] And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. [36] And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, [37] Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. [39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. [40] For he that is not against us is on our part. [41] For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. [42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. I accept any gift of leadership from anyone or anywhere as long as it is true to the Gospel and Jesus. Everyone in His loving care, Jerry | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yikes! I hate it when I make stupid mistakes. I did not mean to comment on female ecclesiastical gymnastics. In stead of ìwomenís roll,î make that ìwomenís role.î | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
dear Jerry, To get a laugh out of you, once on another discussion group of former SDA's I stated that I never could figure out the obsession the SDA church has with the breast. Yep! That's just how it got typed onto the screne. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes, Susan, I have heard Hyveth Williams preach. Yes, she is dynamic. Her dynamism I would describe as a result of a powerful personality and great deal of oratorical talent. Yes, she does have a "following". Yes, she is definitely Adventist. She is more "gospel-oriented" than typical Adventism, but she IS Adventist. In spite of the dynamic delivery, her sermons are not primarily Bible teaching. In fairness I have to say I haven't heard her preach recently. Although she uses Bible texts, the times I have heard her preach, her sermons aren't primarily rich with teaching from the word. Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
ROTFL, Susan 2, J So . . . what is the number of the . . . Never mind, donít answer that. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Lydell, Perhaps one day I'll get that book. In the meantime, things are fine unless a man or woman does that one upping thing on me. It's pompous to put it mildly. Whether a man or woman is teaching me, I listen and IF it goes with Scripture, then I have no problem. It's when I'm trying to point out the context that I get silenced by both genders. Seems their title makes them think they can do this and expect me to take it lying down. Of course me being me, my mouth is opened and opposing what they are teaching. It gets me into alot of trouble with people but then who are people? God's Word is more important than any human alive. So, I agree with Jerry, whoever is teaching should teach the pure Word of God, no matter what gender or title/s. And that includes me. And if I'm wrong about something, I would hope that whoever I was teaching (I don't like that term but it fits), would FIRST check the context in which the Scripture is being used to see if I'm teaching correctly. That is, if they really want to know Truth. If I'm wrong then they could point out to me my error and thus teach me. This really helps us all to better understand Scripture in my opinion. Well, that's my input whatever that's worth. Peace to all, Denise, a student and sometimes teacher but above all, a seeker of God's REAL TRUTH. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I don't have my Bible handy but you can look up the story. In the story of Pheobe in my Bible she is referred to as the pastor. In some translations she is referred to as a Deacon. But, whatever her position was it is clear she held a position of respect and prominance. I was told that the story of Pheobe is the one that the (ELCA) Lutheran Church basis its policy of women ordination on. |
