| Author |
Message |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 9:36 am: |     |
Thanks Bill! Yes, that is clear as mud <smile>. I have one more question. What constitutes turning your back on God? How does one do that? Oops, that was two questions wasn't it? Not looking for a debate. Just trying to get clarification.
Doug |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 4:41 am: | |
Hello again Doug,
I'm thankful for this statement that helped me in what you had said regarding the word 'zoe.' And you have a great deal to offer to people. To both new Christians and weathered Christians. God is working marvelous through you and I thank HIM for that!
So never feel you have nothing to offer, as anyone reading your posts can see, God had you in mind all along to do just what you are doing. Helping alot of us out here. Thank you.
Here is that explanation to my question I had had that you posted on the 3rd of January:
"On the other hand, Jesus offers eternal life (with the emphasis on the quality of life--zoe). He says we can have the completeness that Adam and Eve had, but we can have it forever (and it can begin right now). Do you see the difference?"
I hope whoever has read this statement of yours but missed the conversation will go back to read our interchange. A valuable lesson indeed!
Peace and Blessings in Christ Jesus!
Denise the Berean or simply DtB
P.S. Bill (Loneviking), I too, would like to see what you mean by that "once saved, always saved" statement. I'm sort of confused on your meaning there. Thanks! Peace to you! your sister IN Christ Jesus................ denise |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 9:28 am: | |
http://www.solochristo.com/
Here is a Calvinistic website that gives the entire history of the altar call or sinner's prayer. I didn't have time to read it all but it is interesting. What do CAlvinists believe? Can anyone give a short summary? |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 6:39 am: | |
This article is interesting and also gives us information as to when or how the sinners prayer began. It seems to be all about how sinful we are and presents some thoughts to ones mind with regard to these things. I post the address and am hoping to hear some comments regarding this particular piece. It begins with Genesis 8:1-22.
http://www.faithtacoma.org/sermons/Genesis/genesis18.htm |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 1:52 am: | |
Hello Pheeki,
I just went to the address you had put up and it is quite an interesting read. The article you put up also mentions Finney as the man who started this "sinners prayer/alter call."
Both of the sites that you and I have put up, are good and sound teaching when it comes to "sin," the "sinners prayer," the "Holy Spirit," and alot of other things.
I noticed on the one that you put up here that they liken this "alter call or sinners prayer" to the catholic system or romish is another word they use. They also talk of traditions of men and rituals (which is what first started me questioning this 'sinners prayer' or 'alter call.')
It is stated that emotions are played on at these crusades or within our own church ranks and by playing on the emotions of people to "walk the isle," it is making a mockery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I quite agree.
The article states something else that I agree with and that is what Finney did in that he made this "a will or decision of man" rather than the "Holy Spirit" who really makes this decision. In other words, we, as mere humans, have somehow now attained the ability to "make the decision" one way or another as to "IF" we want to accept Christ's Free Gift. When the Truth is that UNTIL the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts, we will NEVER be able to accept Christ. We are utterly sinful and this is not possible for us to do on our own. This is an ACT OF MERCY OF GOD ALONE that gives us this desire.
It also mentions another truth that I've seen for too long now and that is how the churches who do this numbers game. Counting how many converts they had in one night et-cetera. This reminds me of the television networks or news networks and their competition with each other. What a sad statement for our churches.
I'm hoping that people will read the site you posted and the site I posted to see the Truth of God, which will in effect shatter what is happening in our churches today. Especially if Pastors or Evangelists read these articles (and they really should).
Until we see and understand our sinfulness in its fullness, we can in no way understand or comprehend the Gospel. And we cannot see our own sinfulness in it's full UNLESS God the Holy Spirit gives the eyes to see.
All and Everything is an ACT OF MERCY by God to us. For God wishes that none should perish. And without God's first act of Mercy in us of regeneration, we will perish. For we can do no other.
Let us Praise God for HIS MERCY AND LONGSUFFERING!
Peace to you always, in Christ Jesus Name. amen.
denise
P.S. Pheeki, realizing that I didn't address your question as regards the Calvinists position, I wanted to quickly state that it's preferable for me that someone else might better your understanding in this matter. Hoping you will understand. Blessings to you. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 11:35 pm: | |
I am not qualified to give a detailed answer to the question of Calvinism, but I will make a broad, generalized statement about it. Calvinism (named for the great theologian John Calvin) has become a buzzword for the concept of predestination. Pure Calvinism (represented by people called "hard determinists") maintains that every action of every human being is determined by God. In other words, we may think we decide to accept Jesus while another person decides to reject him, but in reality those decision are predetermined by God himself. In other words, God pre-decides who will be saved and who will be lost. We only think we're choosing what we want because God has put his plan into our hearts.
Other people who might also be considered Calvinists are not hard determinists but are called "soft determinists". These people believe that God as the Primary Cause (the author of human actions and decisions) can be true without negating free will as a Secondary Cause. In other words, they believe that God is sovereign and that ultimately predistination is "true", but they also believe that humans have free choice as a divinely given privilege.
There are also a couple of other views of the question of "determinism". One is called Indeterminism. This view states that few to no actions are caused. Events and decisions are spontaneous. This view has fatal flaws in that it is ultimately irrational. Science cannot even be defended, because there are no predetermine causes for anything even at the cellular or atomic level.
Another view is "self-determinism". This states that moral decisions are the result of people's conscious choices, not the result of predestination. This view seems to contradict presdestination, but the idea of God predestining people to certain outcomes is scriptural.
In short, we cannot completely explain or understand how God can be completely sovereign and predestine humanity to certain things while also giving his creatures free choice. Both concepts are Biblical.
Adventism is not Calvinistic; it is Arminian. Arminianism holds completely to free choice. Pure Arminianism ultimately dilutes God's sovereignty. As a result, we get such philosophical arguments are Richard Rice's book, "The Openness of God", in which he says, essentially, that God keeps himself from seeing the future (which he is innately capable of seeing) so he doesn't mess with our free will. The result is what most of us lived with for so much of our lives: the sense that God is out there, but that ultimately we decide whether or not we want to be saved, we decided whether or not to stay saved, and we make our own salvation possible by choosing right behaviors and doctrines.
I've come to believe that both predestination and self-determinism are real and true. (I guess I might be considered a "soft determinist.) The more I read the Bible and the more I learn to trust Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the more I literally see the sovereign intervention of God in my life and life around me. I no longer believe that events are random or "from the devil". Since my life belongs to Jesus, nothing can touch me, not even tragedy, without first being permitted by God and coming to me through his love. (See the first two chapters of Job.)
I do believe that spiritual warfare is real, and the Satan can orchestrate events to try to destroy us and/or our faith. (Again, see Job.) But Satan cannot touch us without God's permission.
I also believe that we do make choices, and that God gave us the ability to do so. Exactly how to reconcile these two apparently contradictory beliefs, I'm not sure. I suspect that these two views (predestination and free will) are both true, and that reality is a paradox. I suspect that when we are no longer confined to and limited by time, this apparent contradiction will make sense. In the meantime, I see and experience that both of these things seem to be equally true, even though I can't philosophically explain it.
Calvinism has other specific theological principles besides predestination, but this is the one people usually mean when they talk about "Calvinism". I have discovered an enormous amount of freedom and relief in coming to believe that God is truly sovereign, and that he really does have plans to give us hope and a future; He really does prepare in advance good works which he appoints us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)
I'm not sure if I've answered anyone's questions or whether I've just muddied the waters, so to speak! The issues of predestination and free will have for centuries sparked intense disagreements among Christians, and I do not believe we should distract ourselves from the centrality of Christ, the cross, and the resurrection to debate endlesslsy a topic which truly cannot be completely settled this side of eternity. It makes for interesting discussion, but I've watched people become hostile to each other, take sides, and withdraw from each other over these questions. That, I believe, is not God's sovereign will for us, nor is it a wise free-will choice!
I just know I praise God for calling me to himself, and I praise Him that I desired to know the truth. However all this breaks down into predestination and free will I'm not sure, but I give the praise and glory to Him!
Colleen |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 2:03 am: | |
Colleen,
I'd say you did a heck of a lot better job than I could at explaining all that! And yes, I too, have seen people part over these issues. This is sad to see happen.
Now, here is a site that I happen to believe and it addresses both free will and a person's decision to accept Christ.
http://www.markers.com/ink/srmerit.htm
First it has a few paragraphs, then lyrics to a great song. But after that is the article that I'm hoping you and most all else would read. It is pretty convincing indeed and the way I believe too, although it does leave me with a few questions.
But I'm not about to enter that arena! At least not here nor this forum probably (I say this due to the same thing we both have witnessed regarding the "free will" "predestination" etc. subjects.
Anyhow, thanks for explaining what I'm not able to, in order to give Pheeki some sort of answer.
Peace and Blessings.
your sister in Christ.
denise |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 2:06 am: | |
I forgot to mention that the site above speaks about the very topic of this thread.
DtB |
James_Jean (James_Jean)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
I am sure this is putting it to simply, but thats the way I think. Predestination for me is this. I was predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved through faith in Christ. As is everyone from Adam to the last person. This is where my free will comes in I have to believe it. This applies not only for salvation but for works. I was predestined to do works that God has ordained for me to do but I have to be willing to submit to his Lordship. |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 9:44 am: | |
Since Charles Finney came up in two above posts regarding this sinners prayer, here is one of the many websites regarding this man and his teachings. This will be able to give us all a reasonable way to see the entirety of his teachings. There are many more sites if anyone cares to search them out for themselves.
And yes, it deals with Calvinism vs/and Arminianism.
http://www.jayforrest.org/finney.htm
Peace to all,
Denise Gilmore |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
there is only one person in the bible that makes it so clear on what it takes to be saved! And that is our Apostle of the Gentiles Paul. He states it so clearly and makes it so plain what it takes to be saved.
Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And also
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
these 2 passages should make it so clear that we need not to wonder what saves us TODAY! But thw SDA and many churchs will make it sound like this 1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures And belong to the Seventh Day Adventist church and Believe that We are the only church and that this Sabbath marked church will keep you in Favor with God. Then and only then will you possibly be saved.
Most churchs and even preachers on Television. You will Here Not much about it is Jesus and what he has done on the cross that Cleanses us from our sin debt to God and it his shed blood that takes away our Sin record.
Praise the Lord. we all can be saved by what JESUS has done for us sinners. The Debt has been paid all we have to do is collect on what has been done for us.
speakeasy |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 1:50 pm: | |
Speakeasy, You spoke so easy that I almost didn't catch verse four, amen. Janice |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:19 pm: | |
Dear Speakeasy, and the others, especially anyone of a SDA background--Last week I had to take me mom to the local SDA church as she needed to speak with the pastor concerning something. I had never read the Amazing Facts books and he had a row of them on the bottom shelf of the bookshelf. So I asked him if I could have one of each. Well, today I read them. Whoa! Are they ever spun! These are full books written with pictures like a comic book only they are just black and white and they are big and thick. Real books, not those Bible Study pamphlets. The one titled Daniel and Revolation is a real spun book. It says boldly and plainly in big letters that to be granted eternal life one must meet two requirements and these two requirements are; observe the 10 commandments and accept Jesus as your Saviour. If you do those two things then you will be granted grace. Then it goes on to say that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the ONLY church that teaches these two requirements (it's not). Then they get some really goofy doctrine in there about the United States and the "last days", it didn't make any sense, they even get in that people should be vegetarians. They also get in the forth coming Sunday Laws and the Catholic church being The Beast an all Sunday churchs being Her harlots. Dang! It is really far-out. Any of you former SDA's out there ever seen this stuff? Wow! And, I just read that AFTER I finished reading todays devotional from my Lutheran church. What a contrast!!!!!!!!!! Colleen, have you seen that? If not, I'll be happy to photocopy it and send it to you. |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:53 am: | |
I only have the pamplets of what you are talking about. I use them to show people when I tell them what I came out of. Most people think the only difference between on SDA and the church down the street is the Sabbath. But when you show them 4 or 5 things that the SDA teach it is amazing to them. Our church just last week spent 1 Sunday morning talking about Legalism and you still can tell that most people really do not understand how much of a stronghold that the subject of the Law can be. It is like we (The Church) spent 2 hours on this subject and everybody knows all the traps that the legalist will use. I Don't know about all of you but it has taken me 4 years to get were I am at now. And I have along way to go. On our local Cable we have not gotten it yet but it is coming in a few months or so. But the 3ABN network will be part of the FREE package when you purchase basic cable. The Adventist purcahsed a low powered station about 40 milies out of Tulsa and they are now putting out 24 hour programming not all people in tulsa can get it. And to help out there adgenda the Adventist have purchased local programming from another christian station out of Tulsa and bought a block of programming on Sunday. The programming at this point is very tame but the Law is mixed in very lightly. Has anybody heard of "PREPARE THE WAY MINISTRY" It is adventist and is seen in Oklahoma City and Tulsa.The Pastor's name is Isaac Olatunji and he is an up and coming person in the adventist movement.When I saw his show about 4 weeks ago he held up one of the pamplets and said you can write or call and get this for free. And the Papmlete he held up was the 10 commandment one. I know the General Manager of the station and I am going to email him about this guy.
well praise the Lord and PRAY FOR OUR country and PRAY For ISRAEL.
Speakeasy |
Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:16 am: | |
I remember reading one of those on the Amazing Lies (oops!) website that said the theme of the whole Bible is the Sabbath, from Genesis to Revelation. Funny how even Genesis or Revelation center around the Sabbath, nor do the other 64. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
Joel, that's amazing! It's another illustration of how the shadow of Christ has replaced Jesus himself in Adventist theology and biblical understanding. Instead of Jesus, the theme of the whole Bible is the Sabbath?? Wow! That claim would imply that even Jesus foreshadowed the Sabbath. Somehow to Adventists the "main thing" is rest for themselves. The idea of rest in Christ being truly rest FROM themselves and relating TO another is absent.
Praise God for Jesus, our true Sabbath rest!
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 1:02 am: | |
One quick thought on this very subject; When loved ones (friends or kin) find out their loved one has left he SDA denomination do the SDA's ever ask their loved one, "Do you still embrase Jesus?" My guess would be that they do not. My guess and my experience is that the first response of the SDA to the one who no longer is SDA would be, "Do you still embrase the Sabbath?" meaning, the weekly seventh day of the week and not our Lord Jesus. I truly and honestly believe in my heart that most SDA's base their salvation on their adhearance to the weekly rules of Sabbath observance and not on Jesus. And, the intesesting thing to me is that the rules for Sabbath observance are as many as there are individual people who claim to be "Sabbth-keepers". For example, some will spend no money on the Sabbath, others will go out to eat after church figuring that the manservent, maidservant rule dosen't apply to them as the waiter/waitress is really working for the restruant and not them. My SDA kin will stay night at motels over Friday nights but they will be sure to pay for the room before sunset on Friay. Never mind that when they check out on Saturday morning they have to deal with the motel clerk and the rest of the motel emplyees have to be at work so my SDA kin can stay night there. That one never did jive with me. When I was a little girl my parents would let me play and swim in the ocean and the lakes and the rivers on Sabbath but not in a swimming pool because to do the nature thing was honoring God on His creation but swimming pools are manmade and to swin in a swimming pool on Sabbath would be honoring man and mans creation. I have a friend who was raised SDA and her parents won't even go get their mail out of their mailbox on Sabbath beieving that nothing secular should be done on those holy hours. Most SDA's I know even read their newspapers in the morning before heading off to church on Saturday mornings, some will watch t.v. during that time and others won't. There is just no consistancy as to a consensus among SDA's what consttutes "keeping the seventh-day holy". It is a lot more easy to understand that Jesus is where my loyalty belongs EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!.. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 5:50 am: | |
I've been corresponding with a Sabbath keeper who is not SDA, not sure his denomination but ya know, something in our conversation made me realize that observing the Sabbath is really idolatry in a way. It gets so much attention and precedence that it actually becomes a matter of worshipping the creation instead of the creator.
They don't realize that God did in fact create the Sabbath it wasn't here before time.
If there is going to be a shadow, there had to be something there first to make the shadow. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 12:32 pm: | |
Very good point, Sabra.
Colleen |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 3:41 pm: | |
Susan, I read EGW's book on Child Guidance and sent my sister a letter showing some of her wild statements and that was another letter that my sister admitted to finally reading but wrote "return to sender" on it because it grieved her when she got to the part where I reminded her that both she and her husband were divorced with living spouses which was considered adultery according to the teachings of Jesus and she was offended because she was taking pride in the fact that she was "keeping" the big 10. Funny how some pick and choose from the list like it was a restaurant menu, huh?
To be more specific about what I said about the book on childcare, EGW wrote that if we raised our children to observe God's laws and lived a godly life as an example for them to follow that it would "open up the pearly gates for their children" and they would gain access to heaven. Now I have to ask all of you: Is this the gospel according to the New Testament teachings?
My Bible does say that we are to train up a child in the right ways to live and in doing so, it will be instilled in their memory but I don't think that when the Bible says "when they are grown that they will not depart from it" means anything more than the fact that their conscious will bring it to rememberance when they go against it, it certainly doesn't assure them entrance to heaven, only the applied blood can do that. I believe that if we live a godly life full of love towards our children and teach them God's laws of love and decency that it does make it harder for Satan to deceive them but again, it is not a guarantee that you go to heaven because you learned something, amen?
If we really studied the law in detail too, we would find that obedience to the law brought blessings to those who lived them and those who lived them were judged by them, but I apologize if I am wrong here with what I am trying to say, but blessings and judgment here don't mean "eternal" and were earthly in nature, example: Canaan, the promised land. Even those who help the Jews are promised blessings and those who are against the Jews will receive curses, so, that would tell me too that God is definitely not through with his dealings with his wife/Israel, but Jesus' bride will enjoy the wedding feast during that same time, the time of Jacob's trouble.
Guess I need to save that for the rapture thread though before sending another long post out.
Good night for now,
Janice |
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