| Author | Message | ||
| Kme |
To: Richard Hardison Considering the fact you claim not to have ever been an SDA, I do not understand your position. Clearly, you are a "Seventh-day" believing Christian who for some reason finds it necessary to disagree with SDA's, as well as, former SDA's. Consequently, I must deduct from this that you definetly have an agenda of some sort. Maybe, confusion is what is driving you to this website. I must tell you, that since you are not an SDA, nor a former SDA, you cannot possibly understand what, or should I say, how the Adventist church indoctrinates its members with false doctrine. Therefore, you also cannot imagine the fleshly emotional affect much of what you say has, on those of us who are trying to break free of these teachings. I myself was a 5th or 6th generation Adventist. The reason I am visiting this website today after quite a long time, is because of the very damaging way the very falacies you are defending are taught. We have been hammered with fear concerning 7th - day Sabbath observance! Fear that was largely fueled due to teachings of EGW! I understand that you don't believe she was a prophet of God. However, you can not possibly understand the way her writings were and are being used to scare people into remaining in a church that they are afraid to leave because of things she "predicted". I do not believe she was used of God in any way, yet I am still haunted daily by the things that were programmed into my head about the last days and salvation. Colleen, I so appreciate your responses to the remarks made here. They are points of grace which comfort me in times when I fear I've been deceived, as was predicted would happen to many in the last days by EGW. Thank you. It's very hard to block out the constant tauntings of well-meaning family and friends. I've been trying to break free of this for a year and 1/2 and sometimes it's almost more than I can bear! Trying to focus on Jesus! kme | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lydell, Thank you so much for putting up the EGW references above. I have been wanting to do that, but I'm so swamped with work that I haven't had the time to look for the quotes. I even have some fairly accessible at the moment. Thank you again. Kme, thank you, too, for sharing your experience today. You stated so clearly what so many of us experience and have experienced. And you are right; no one can actually defend EGW and her theology and her statements claiming direct divine revelation without having an agenda! Satan is the accuser of the brethren. When we walk with Jesus, the fear and debilitating doubts we experience are spiritual attacks designed to pull our attention away from Jesus and from our personal relationship with him. He is so faithful to us. He never leaves us alone, even in our doubts, and he provides for us during those times. The security of learning to rest in him even when we can't see clearly is unlike anything I've experienced before. The truth is, we can expect attacks and trials and slander and detractors. Jesus said it would happen, and it happened over and over to all the apostles. But no attack or doubt or argument or offense of any kind can undo what Jesus has already done: sealed us with the Holy Spirit and put his eternal life and his love in us. Nothing anyone says or does to us can undo the fact that in Him we are righteous and beloved of God. No argument or smoke screen can obscure reality and truth. I praise Jesus for choosing us and loving us and revealing "ongoingly" his truth to us. In Him reality begins to make sense. I suspect that short of living free of time eternally and being able to see what we cannot now see, the closest thing any of us will come to knowing the "unifying theory of everything" that physicists are trying to discover is actually knowing Jesus. Praise Him for His excellent greatness! Colleen | ||
| Joni |
Amen!!! KME and Colleen. I am re-reading a book called THE BONDAGE BREAKER by Neil T. Anderson. I just read a part that I would like to share. "The first step to freedom in Christ is to renounce your previous or current involvements with satanically inspired occultic practices or false religions. You may have tried many ways in the past for resolving your spiritual problems and finding meaning in life. Any activity or group which denies Jesus Christ, offers guidance through any source other than the absoulte authority of the written Word of God, or requires secret initiations must be forsaken. No Christian has any business being part of a group that is not completely open about all they do. (1John 1: 5,7) If the leaders of any group demand absolute authority instead of serving the needs of their constituents, do not submit to them." The sda church is not upright, they lure you in with Revelation Seminar's and they don't say what church they are from. This is dishonest. It is not Christ like. They use EGW more than the Bible. One time in SS years ago we were using a book called THE NAMES OF GOD, by Kay Authur. It was not an adventist book. There were many in the class. One of the common answers to many of the discussions/questions was "lets see what EGW says about this". This was when I really knew that I had to leave that church. Hang in there. God is Big. He is close and He is the one who is seeking you. He loves you with an everlasting love. When I realized that God is God and that satan is nothing, he can't even be in all places like God can. He uses schemes to trick us. He is like a cockroach and we have the authority in Jesus Christ to squash him. He can use our past to torment us, if we do not break the bondage and renounce anything we have been in that is false. Be free, and be healed. God is a healing God. His Spirit will refresh us with His fruits of LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE,KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS, SELF-CONTROL; against such things there is no law... If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ. God loves us. Just as we are. He does not wait for us to change ourselves and get good. He saved us as we were, sinners, and He grows us in grace and love and truth. I praise Him. And I trust Him. I trust Him with my life. And I Pray the prayer in Ephesians. Eph. 1:18 "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you will know what is the hope if His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." We are His body. He loves us and wants to sup with us and show us a more glorious way, in Him. He is gentle and loving. Contrast satan, he will accuse you and bring no peace, he says you are not worthy, look what you have done. you will never make it. yuck yuck yuck. Jesus says, Neither do I condem you, go and sin no more. What glorious love is bestowed on us. I keep falling in love with Him over and over and over and over again. He gets better and better as the days go by, oh what a love between my Lord and I, ..... Love in Christ, Joni | ||
| Sherry2 |
Richard Hardison...in reference to D. M. Canwright...from his book "Life of Mrs. E. G. White Seventh-day Adventist Prophet Her False Claims Refuted" original copywright 1919, recent republishing 1998. From pg. 48-49 (references from pg. 87-89 of original)Canwright wrote "All her life, energies were devoted to building up a sect, and promulgating narrow, sectarian views. She built high the middle wall or partition seperating her followers from all other believer in Christ. She was self-centered, and on occasion, boastful. Her writings to her people abound in references to herself, to her ill health, and how she was often raised from beds of sickness to attend meetings. The evident object in this was to arouse sympathy, and to cause her followers to regard her as a special subject of God's providence. As to boastful claims, the following is a sample:'I could prove greater devotion than anyone living, engaged in the work' ("Testimonies", Vol.1, p. 581. See Prov. 27:2). In advocating reforms, being naturally fanatical, she was inclined to take extreme views, which , although represented at the time as founded on divine revelations, she was later obliged to abandon or greatly modify. With her friends she was sociable and an agreeable companion. But she would never tolerate any question of her authority, or any expressed doubt of her inspiration. Either would instantly stir her upmost wrath. She admits tampering with the messages she says God gave to her for others, and never seems certain that she wrote them just right. At first she says:'When obliged to declare the message, I would often soften them down; and make them appear as favorable for the individual as I could...It was hard to relate the plain cutting testimonies given me of God'("Testimonies", Vol. 1, p.73). In Testmonies, Vol. V, p. 19 she denies having done this. She says:'I take back nothing. I soften nothing to suit their ideas, or to excuse their defects of character.'" Later in the next page this paragragh can be found : "Again Elder Wilcox said: 'Mrs. Whitenever claimed or assumed leadership among the people.' The very opposite is true. She did both. The highest officials in the denomination were subject to her. Like the Pope of Rome in medieval times, her power and influence in the church grew until she becamse supreme. She made and unmade conference presidents with a word of mouth or a stroke of the pen. She said who was and who was ot to fill office. She said wher to buy and build, and where not to. If she said, 'Go ahead,' no one in the whole denomination dared say otherwise, even though it meant the loss of thousands and tens of thousands of dollars." I could go on with this book. Your noble Christian woman is not painted by Canwright here. You wanted me to prove to you otherwise from what Canwright previously said (which you did not show a text or quote of reference), but I have shown you from Canwright's book that it is scathing in regards to her and obviously his feelings had changed. Why? I think he answers it in pg. 50 (reference to 91-92 of original) of "But intelligent, thinking persons found that Mrs. White made mistakes; that she was often, very often, influenced by one person against another; that she got her information from men, not from God. The cases were so plain and so numerous that there could be no doubt about it. Then, these persons must either acquiesce in what they doubted or disbelieved, or rebel and leave the denomination. Hence, all along the years many left, while others swallowed their doubts and remained." I think for a season, he did swallow his doubts and remain. Many of us did the same too, but praise God for His gentle prodding, we couldn't ignore the truth anymore, and we left behind a false prophet who indeed is similar to Joseph Smith, like it or not. | ||
| In_his_service |
I also have read Canright's book. He did not support Ellen White, nor did he, in any way speak highly of her or her ministry. Despite SDA reports to the contrary, he died a Baptist minister and did not recant his information about White. To this day, he probably remains the most damning witness to her ministry. He knew her personally, knew her deceit, and made it known to the denomination nearly a century ago | ||
| Snali |
HI, I couldnt sit silent and let,what appears to be ,a glofification of egw go on. As KME states you,cannot possibly know what it has been like for those of us who left the sda church after years of indoctrination, of having slammed into your mind over and over again egw said this or sister white said that. I also read Canwrights book and he made it very clear that they were some very brutal people,if you disagreed with them on anything,she would suddenly have one of her "visions" and would use her "divine" inspiration to attack those that opposed her. Well it still goes on today,if you disagree with the sda church you are hit with egw,and if you dont like egw then you are well on the road to hell. All of us live with the things we were taught and we live with all the haunting memories of what we were "taught."Its bad enough that we have sda people both friends and families out there thinking we are doomed without coming onto this sight and having someone try to put some sort of soft touch to her or what we went through. Sir I dont know you or your heart and can only assume that you mean well,but until you have experienced what we have(not something I reccomend)dont try to tell us what egw was. snali If I have offended anyone,that was not my intent I have a tendency to get wound up about things so as a result I tend to get kind of blunt. | ||
| Kme |
Thank you to those of you who posted quotes from Canwright. I personally have not read his book, but have heard about him from another SDA. Of course that not being favorable. The problem here with EGW and the way she has been promoted with the SDA church is that those of us who grow up in that church often don't know what is from the Bible and what is from EGW. Of course we don't realize that until we start to study outside the church doors, and with other people. I can remember the first church we attended after deciding to look into other denominations, and still feel the shock of finding out that many things I thought came from the Bible were in fact from EGW. I would say in Bible study after making a statement or asking a question, "Was that from the Bible or not?" Fortunetly, the church we were attending at that time was a 7th -Day church, who had some SDA's who attended there from time to time and were familiar with the problem. That, if you really think about it is extremely disheartening and scary. I have an SDA friend who is quite liberal from traditional SDA points of view. She is attending one of those "terrible" celebrational churches that is a little less legalistic than your average SDA church. She does not believe in EGW at all, and thinks that the church she attends does not use any of her teachings. What my friend doesn't realize, is those teachings are so intertwined if not the very fabric of the doctrines of any SDA church. But there is no way she would believe me if I tried to convince her of this. It took me two years of contemplation after first being told that, before I would even consider that it was possible That my friend, is an example of how damaging the falacies of that church are. Knowing the Written Word of the Bible is so important! Unfortunetly, most SDA's really don't, although they certainly believe they do! I recently had a conversation also with an SDA relative who thinks that the Bible has mistakes in it. She also has recently been studying with a group who uses the Hebrew names only for Jesus and God, because they believe in the translation of Hebrew to Greek (I may not be correct in that order, it might be Greek to Latin to English feel free to correct me somebody) that the Greek's used the name of their pagan gods "Jesus" for Jesus. I hate to even write such a thing! They also believe that the Anti-Christ will use the name Jesus as part of the deception. Do you see how these "little" mistakes in the Bible can set you up for huge deceptions, when that's what you are supposedly teaching against? I love the Written Word of God, and I do believe it was inspired, and we should pray to be led by the Holy Spirit and trust that we are, even if we come to some other conclusion than what the SDA church teaches. The God I believe in has the power to preserve His word and if I questioned it in that way, I'm afraid I would have to forget it all. Has anyone else heard of this? Maybe it needs to be on a different thread. | ||
| Lynnw |
Kme, If I didn't know better, I'd say you were my friend, Pam. Absolutely every word of what you just wrote is exactly what she has told me - from the part about not knowing what's EGW or Bible to the part about only the Hebrew name for Jesus being valid. And that terrible celebration church. You two must be running in the same circles. | ||
| Lynnw |
Lydell, I just noticed something amusing in your 9-27 post. First the quote, "People say today 'only the Bible' but this is deceiving. The Bible must be interpreted by the prophet of God, Ellen White." Review, June 24, 1982, p. 15. Then the title of the article, "All Things Through Christ". ...huh? | ||
| Sherry2 |
Hi Lynn...welcome to the forum. I don't believe I've seen you here before. Are you new or been here a while? Can you tell us about yourself? What brings you here? I'll say that's amusing too to find an article referring to needing EGW, and then titled all things through Christ...there's a contradiction in terms. Phewy! :) Well if you're new, welcome. If not, well glad to say "hi" then. :) | ||
| Windmotion |
I read Canwright's book for the first time on the ellenwhite.org web site, and it made me very sad. I also read an interview from Kellog, another man who was intimately involved with Ellen White. I conclude from these two sources that she intentionally deceived her followers to give herself more power in the church, but also she was controlled by men around her to give themselves more power as well. Satan is the deceiver of the brethren. If he didn't work through her directly, he sure must have been pretty happy to see what she was doing. I have never read the book before because it is old, and I thought all his problems would have been rectified by now. But I was mistaken. I don't see how anyone could read that book and remain a seventh day adventist. Any thoughts? --Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hannah, I had the same reaction when I read Canright. How could anyone read this and remain Adventist? I can see why the Adventists have worked hard (and mostly successfully) to discredit him. I also agree that the people around EGW were as culpable as she was. They used her, she allowed herself to be used, and everyone profited in some way. Welcome back, Lynn! It's been a long time! Colleen | ||
| Lynnw |
Hi, Colleen, Sherry, and the others. Sorry to be gone so long. Glad to see you're keeping up the fight. I took some time off to get some much needed work done around here and to spend time studying Hebrew. Still have a lot to do and to learn, but I just have to stop by for an occassional visit. | ||
| Richardhardison |
KME, I'm sorry this has taken so long. Last time I was here I tried to post but, alas, the system wouldn't allow it. The admin section has the reason. I'm not "Seventh Day" anything. I don't "glorify" EGW anymore than I glorify Calvin (whose followers operationally view him as an inerrant commentator). I've had conversations with a good many SDA and pointed to a few problems they have had, pointing to scripture and no where else. For me the final word is scripture. If you disagree with the Word then your argument isn't with me. I never said Canright endorsed EGW. He knew both James and Ellen White intimately, yet, in the end, called EGW a noble Christian woman. AND yet died outside of the SDA never having returned. I really don't see that the SDA really discredited Canright. They certainly smeared his books, but when pushed into a corner were forced to admit that he acted honestly having left openly and stating his reasons for doing so. this is in comaprison to many who left quietly then speaking out. Canright laid it on the line and it cost him. He, however, was willing to pay the price for his principles. Personally, it didn't take reading Canright, I looked at what they believed and knew I would never become SDA. I was fortunate there as the Church I was raised in taught me the final authority was the Bible and if it disagreed with that it wasn't of God. | ||
| Kelly |
Excellent statement Richard! "If you disagree with the Word then your argument isn't with me." | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Just wondered if there were any FAF members or groups in or near the Nashville area? Thanks, Janet | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Janet, I don't know of any groups. We can pray that someone will start one! Colleen | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Thanks. I know of one other friend here, (who I went to Acacemy with up north in another state), who has been discovering the truth of our "heritage"...and we have had many wonderful discussions. I so enjoy learning about the real Truth. I have many Christian friends to share with, but there is just something about FAF that goes even deeper...you all REALLY understand what it is like to try to "reprogram" (for lack of a better word) the whole of our being. Thanks for your prayers and being available!!! God bless FAF, Janet | ||
| Too_Dee (Too_Dee) |
Hi, Does anyone know of a meeting place in the San Francisco Bay Area? Thanks. Too Dee | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Greetings all. I know it has been a long time since I have been here, but felt the need to take a step back for a while. Each of you continue to be in my thoughts and prayers. I have been attending a grace filled fellowship for the last two years, but am feeling the need to explore some other options (not due to any problems necessarily). I am wondering if anyone knows anything about the Vineyard Chrsitian Fellowship. Any information about their theology, practices, beliefs, etc. would be greatly appreciated. In His Wonderful Grace Doug |
