| Author | Message | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Yeah Colleen, during his sermon on one of our first visits to our church, the pastor said something like, "I want to just read a quote from this book that is one of my favorite...." and we instinctively started to get up thinking, "okay, we're out of here" expecting to hear "favorite authors". You and I both know that, "one of my favorite authors" was always a code word for "here comes an EGW quote". Thankfully we hadn't stood up too quickly. The rest of his sentence was "...translations of the Bible". ha | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Sherry, I recently had the same thing when I asked my pastor about the Deut text I asked about on another thread. He gave me 6 pages of why we worship on Sunday (!!!!!!!!!!) YUCK!! I was getting that sick feeling and instead of argueing with him, I gave him a copy of some stuff I wrote on how I came to the conclusion to esteem everyday alike. He didn't respond yet, but, I got to thinking,...he is a very Godly man, I have learned so much from him, he is obviously walking with God, (at least evidiently) and I got to thinking about Romans 14. One man esteems one day above another.....that man is not me but doesn't mean that it is wrong. Maybe we have the choice there because some of us need more guidelines than others. I have been learning a lot from the Messianic Jews, they understand that they are not under the law but they really ENJOY the feasts and the Sabbath as a CHOICE, not an obligation, they don't judge anyone for not seeing it the way they do and they don't think they are holier than the next guy. I know when I joined theBaptist church, the pastor told me I had to believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus and be or have been baptized by water and those were the only requirements for membership. I know he is not legalistic, but he was probably taught that Sunday is the Lord's day and should be separate from other days. He probably never had to think about it any other way. Maybe your pastor is the same, maybe he has just never thought about it any other way! Pray about it and then talk to him and let the Spirit speak through you, not to change his thinking, just to clarify where you are in your own understanding and then see where it goes from there. I noticed last Sunday my pastor mentioned that we should be worshipping God everyday,and everywhere, not just in church, maybe that came from something I shared with him, I don't know, but it's worth a talk for sure. Either way, God honors your understanding and his too. It's just so hard not to cringe and get that knot in your stomach when you hear "the law" all this talk about the 10 being posted in the courthouses lately has had me feeling uneasy too.  Let us know!! Blessings! Sabra | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Thank you for all responses. Appreciated much. I will talk to him. Doug, Janet, Sabra, greatly appreciated your kind responses. I definitely don't want to lose my bondage detector. And I'm right with ya, Sabra, on cringing when I hear the 10 being posted in the court.. why don't they try listing the two greatest that Jesus said and call it a day! Lydell, appreciated your response, albeit, to be honest I was put on the defensive by a number of comments. But I know you don't mean to. Just to let you know, our church is pastored by 6 or more pastors, each in a different area. We don't have a senior pastor at present. That man, whom I greatly respected and led in grace hugely, moved on to be vice-pres. of a Baptist College. We've been in the "waiting" for almost a year now. To judge whether to leave or not over one pastor is not right. To speak with him is right. But I am getting sick of the push to give, give, give our money that was never emphasized before(members confirm this) this pastor took over this last year. Anyhow. And I say this kindly but please understand I don't believe my life was a waste, in or out of Adventism. God worked in my life all the way. I've seen Him perform miracles in my life both in and outside of Adventism. I simply wish it was possible to settle in a congregation with 100% confidence. But apparently that will never exist. I see this church as owed a debt of gratitude for bringing me the truth of the gospel, at the same time I am praying it is not our final resting spot. I'd love to go where people are not afraid to raise hands in worship. However, this is where God's put us, and from here on out it's got to be my husband's leading to decide we need a different church. So here I go atalking to him hopefully before the end of the week. I just pray we get a senior pastor soon whose full of God's grace, and then maybe the rest will take care of itself. Thankyou! Sherry | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sherry, please know that I in no way meant to put you on the defensive! Like I said, it was just some things for you to think about. It's always so hard when we can't be there and actually see for ourselves the situation that someone else is talking about on here. There are so many aspects of the situation that we kind of have to fill in the blanks on, guess at, etc. And it makes it tough when we really only get someone's comments and then make our own. You know, it's a bit like we are always talking in shorthand! It's so much easier when we are unable to talk face to face and ask questions, hear the answers, and ask more questions for clarification. Man, 6 pastors is a bunch. And I can see that it leaves it kind of a different situation with no senior pastor at the moment. Sounds like, in that case, whatever this particular pastor has to say will be HIS opinion and not necessarily the stance of the church body. Yeah, I see your point. Yes, I know you are right. Nothing of our lives is a waste! I too know that the Lord was with us through those days of the SDA's. Boy was that lousy wording on my part. Thanks for calling me on it. When we give our past to the Lord, He always take it and reinterprets it to build something good, you are so right. But Sherry, I DO believe that it is possible to settle in a congregation with 100% confidence. And I have to believe the Lord will get you there in His time, as you listen to His leading. (I'm praying for your hubby!) I doubt we will ever be someplace where we are going to agree 100% with everything someone says. Hey, that doesn't even happen with our spouse! But, that 100% confidence comes in when we can look at the character of the pastor of the congregation, and see that it is such that he is truly a committed, spirit-filled believer who does listen to the Lord, and that the leadership is in unity. The pastor will still be a human being, still as capable as we are of making mistakes, still in his own learning process ....no pastor is a perfect human being with perfect knowledge. We went through a time of seeing our pastor act with a lack of good judgment and cringed. But you know, the Lord took care of that situation. The pastor looks back and shakes his head now and says, "MAN, I can't believe I didn't see that coming and let that happen!" And will tell you that he has learned from his mistake, and we have seen it put in action. And we actually saw the unity of the leaders of the church grow even stronger thru the experience. It pointed out areas where we needed better communication. And those changes have been made. Church is not a static thing. Just like an individual can grow and change, a church body does, too. | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Sherry, I like to look at the 35 years I spent inculcated with SDA doctrines like this: I wouldn't do it over again but, at the same time, I wouldn't change a thing. Sort of a duality of thinking, you know? It nearly killed me (or so I thought), but I'm so much better off on this side of the pilgrimage. Try to enjoy the entire experience, knowing and resting in the hands of Him who brought you here and will bring you home. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Thanks for your kind words, Lydell. Much appreciated. I try to take things with a grain of salt, but don't always do well at it. It's very hard for me to put roots down anywhere. Even though I was SDA for 20 years, I never felt I belonged. And that is my personality that has been a loner for most of my young life (see I'm still a baby at 32)... I was more of a church hopper. I guess that is a hurtle, the Lord and I are gonna have to tackle together no matter "where" that church is. I'm totally understanding of the duality of thinking, Freeatlast. It is awesome to see how He uses everything to His honor and glory, the good or the bad. Like the verse that talks of restoring to us the years that the locusts have eaten...truly if I hadn't been sold a slave to legalistic bondage, would the joy of salvation and grace have astounded my heart so?! God is good! | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Exactly Sherry! I would never appreciate the taste of grace so much had I not experienced the starvation of legalism. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sherry, you are so right! I now thank God I was raised Adventist because I understand grace so much better. I'll pray that you and your husband will find yourselves in a church (maybe the one where you are now!) where you both feel at home. God does lead us to places where he can teach us and we can grow. In the meantime, it would be very unsettling to have a church so big it had 6 pastorsóbut no senior pastor! And pastors, I've found, often see things differently from each other even when they love the Lord. Love in Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
The Law. Just what does it mean? Here is a link to help and if it doesn't help, please post your problems with this or your amens. I would like to hear others thoughts into this matter. Thank you and Peace in Christ Jesus. Denise Gilmore http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/sda_law.html | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
It is my sincere belief that the law, as one sees the term mentioned throughout the Bible, is precisely one thing. It is ěTowrahî or ěTorahî which refers to the first five books of the Bible. In particular, it is important to note that references to ěGodís lawî, ěThe Law of Moses,î ěThe Lordís Law,î ěThe Law of God,î and ěThe Lawî almost all refer to this. Wherever the Bible mentions the law, it is best, in my opinion, to assume that this the meaning in the absence of any clear evidence to the contrary. Deuteronomy 4:44,45 [44] And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel: [45] These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt, (What follows is the Ten Commandments and the statutes and ordinances.) My guess is that the next two questions about this are: 1. Does the Law change? 2. Did God intend the Law (Torah) to extend to all that have a relationship with God? My answers, as best I understand, are: 1. Absolutely! Just look at the introduction of the Ten Commandments in Exodus. This was a mammoth change from what God gave to the patriarchs . However, just as we saw a huge change in the Law when God freed the Israelites from their slavery to the powers of kings or pharoahs. We saw an even larger change when Christ freed us from our slavery to sin. 2. Yes and no. I believe that God has always meant to extend all benefits of the plan of salvation to all people. However, some parts of the plan (law) were given to and carried out by only certain people. If there is such a thing as an ěunchanging, universal Law of Godî I doubt that any person has seen or can possibly understand the smallest part of that law. It might be summed up in one perfect word, it might be incredibly huge to put into words, or it might be a concept we cannot possibly understand. In the end, I believe that what God has given to many different people in many different ways and at many different times throughout the Bible, can be summed up in one word: Love. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
And I say AMEN! to that brother! In Christ Jesus, Denise Gilmore | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Very good post Jerry. I just spent a few minutes in an SDA SS waiting for church to begin and caught the end of what the Dr. was saying. He was talking about the new covenant and how it was a call to perfect ourselves and become like Christ. Actually I couldn't tell you what he was really saing because it was confusing what he was trying to get across. I looked around and people looked like robots...staring off into space, probably sitting there thinking how they don't get it and blaming themselves. Sad. Then the pastor had a sermon on the parable Jesus told about the bad steward in Luke 16, who was told he was going to be fired as the steward so he went out and started cutting deals to collect debts and then his boss praised him. I took the parable to mean winning souls for heaven (by telling the Gospel) but he equated it to tithing. He didn't use the actual word tithe but he was talking about stewardship and money. Does anyone know if this parable is about money or people? (as in not failing to spread the "good news" for the kingdom). I am really confused. Disclaimer: For those who don't know me, I only attend the SDA church because my husband refuses to leave it and my kids go to SDA schools, so for the sake of my family I still go but I don't believe what they teach nor do I consider myself one. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I think the parable of the good steward is about winning souls for Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I believe the parable of the steward in Luke 16 is showing that "people of the light" (v.8) are often foolish when dealing with the people to whom they're to minister. Jesus was saying to use the material blessings God gives us to serve others, not just to please ourselves. If the worldly steward was shrewd enough to see that he could protect his own future by indebting his master's debtors to himself and also obtain at least part of the debt he had previously failed to collect, then how much more should we, who have a higher calling than worldly success, be willing to use our material advantages for the service of others? If we choose to use our assets for ministry and service, we are building for ourselves a much more secure and wonderful future than if we merely make sure that we're comfortable now. An important part of this parable is Jesus' explanation which follows. If we're not honest and responsible with worldly weatlh, "who will trust [us] with true riches?" And, if we're not trustworthy with our master's property, (everything God gives us), "who will give [us] property of [our] own?" (v. 11-12) In other words, if we're not responsible to use the material blessings God gives us for his service, how can we expect eternal blessings? At least that's how I understand the parable. Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hello Colleen, I've re-read Luke 16 and see that just before that parable is the parable of the lost coin, the parable of the lost son and then the parable of the shrewd stewart. All of them, about money er so it seems. But, that is not at all what I see into these parables. We cannot "buy" our salvation. At the end of the parable of the shrewd stewart the Pharisees, who loved money, were snearing at Jesus for these sayings. And Jesus says this to them: "You are the ones who "justify" yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." In the lost coin parable, it is not the coin (money) that is the important part of that parable, rather it is God's mercy. Same with the lost son parable and I believe it's the same with Luke 16 and the shrewd manager. Notice that right after the shrewd manager parable is yet another parable of what would appear to be about money. The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Again, I believe that in all these parables, it's about MERCY, not money. God desires MERCY. If God were to deem our salvation upon our handling of money, then Grace is NOT Grace in my humble opinion. Infact, in this damned world, there are too many people that will esteem their money over another human being and Godly things like MERCY. If money handling is a "will get salvation or won't get salvation," then God is about money not MERCY. I happen to believe that God is about MERCY just as Scripture states. If it's about money, I want no part of Christianity. I've known many people who eat 3 meals per day all their lives, yet ignore the homeless and hungry. This is an atrocity to me and I believe, in the eyes of God as well. I could cite case after case of people esteeming "mammon" over things of God, that claim to be Christian. My humble opinion is that they have their hearts set on what is not of God. I'm just waking up so if this doesn't make sense or is scrambled (which it shouldn't be), forgive me. My whole point is this: Money will not buy salvation. Nor will how we handle money. God desires MERCY, MERCY, MERCY. A question I will now pose to all posters: Do you believe that if you handle your monies irresponsibly, that God will deny you salvation? And an inverted question posed as well: Do you believe that if you handle your monies responsibly that this assures you a place in Heaven? With love in Christ Jesus, denise, your pauper sister. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Colleen, The reason for my above post was due to this statement of yours in your post and I forgot to paste it into the above post. Here's your last statement: "In other words, if we're not responsible to use the material blessings God gives us for his service, how can we expect eternal blessings?" Peace to you, Denise Gilmore | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
We don't be denied salvation because we are irresponsible oofs. We do not gain salvation because we are headed towards a killing on Wall Street. Yet we should each manage the best we can with what we have. We are all given our talents and our shortcomings. Some folks who get the same amount of oney and have the same expenses can save while the other person consistantly has more month than money. But, I'm sure the more month than money person will have other abilities that the good budgeter would be envious of. Isn't is great that we are each unique and special? | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
And another question yet. If one has no money or assets to use in Gods service, what does that bode to those of us that fit this catagory? I'm still standing on the Rock of AGES...Jesus Christ our GRACE (unmerited favor). It is matters of the heart that count with God and nothing else as far as I know. We could assist in missionaries with our money, we could tithe until we are blue in the face, we could buy people lunches from time to time (which is usually the case..just time to time, but not as a common pratice), we could give a $10, $20 bill to someone in need once in a while. BUT, although we may feel JUSTIFIED (especially in the eyes of men) and then think we are justified with God, is not correct as to heart matters. God looks into our hearts, the very hearts He created and sees our 'motives' for doing such things. THIS is what counts in God's Eyes. Not our once a year gift to someone who starves all year, not our once a month lunch that we may offer within a congregation, not our once a month meal we give to the homeless at the shelters yet leave them either homeless or for those who are not in shelters, leave them homeless and give them a one night stay at our home only to leave them homeless for the rest of the year, not to mention hungry. Again, I say, we are Saved by GRACE=unmerited favor of God Almighty. When it is time for rewards at the bema seat of Christ, this will show our real "good deeds." Seems too, that Jesus didn't have a great love for money. Infact, He is the opposite. He is a God of MERCY, LOVE AND GRACE. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Susan, I was typing as you apparently were posting. I agree with you. Money is fine but our talents are not composed of money as the usuall state of affairs for most people. Our hearts have imbedded on them, our talents. These are what God gave us to serve others with. I know for a fact, speaking for me so I'm an expert in this what I'm about to say. Most Christians will offer a $10 or $20 bill every 3-6 to me but never call, never visit, never see or ask for that matter, how I am doing, never take me to church or invite me to their home for some warmth of heart. Did that money given to me show me love? Nawww, it shows me that most people think and even feel justified in simply just doing that but nothing else when it comes to matters of the heart/spirit within me. To be honest, my walk with Christ has mostly been void of human contact from acclaimed Christians (with a acception of this blasted internet). This is a depressing situation most of the time to realize that folks seem to think that the $20 they gave to me 3 months ago, shows me that they truly are concerned about me or even think about me in the meantime. No phone calls, no visits. And when I lay dying in a hospital bed, 10-1, there will be no Christian at my side to pray with me. It will be me, strangers i.e. hospital staff and God. I've seen this for years with others and know my fate in this arena as well. And infact have been hospitalized but who could know as they never called to see how I'm doing, nor come to see me where they would have been informed by my manager as to my whereabouts or state. So that $20 that may have been given me was the last recall of Christian Mercy and Love. How sad that some think I'm that easily bought. Or that easily fooled. I know who doesn't really care and that would consitute most all people that I know that are Christian. Or they may care, but their showing of this care was absolutely lacking and infact missing. This is probably not a good day for me to post eh? Well, truth be known, this is my thought into these matters most every day, as I wonder where my "friends" are. Blessings and Peace, your sister who WILL meet you at God's Throne! | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Are you in the U.S.? If so, what state? |
