Archive through January 05, 2003 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 2 » The Sinners Prayer as offered today in churches » Archive through January 05, 2003 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all,

Everytime one turns on a television set and watches a preacher, at the end they always end up asking people to say this "sinners prayer" with them.

Same with our churches today.

And of course there's always music that goes along with the pleas of the pastor...ummm, where did this come from? In the Bible?

I'd like to know where in the Bible this "sinner's prayer" is found. As far as I know, we believe with our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord and confess with our mouths.

An instance in the Bible of the Pharisee and the sinner at the synagogue, where the Pharisee is saying thank you to God for not being like the others, in that they are sinners. And the sinner, all by himself, says a prayer that simply says Have mercy on me, a sinner.

God's Word says that the man who simply asked God for Mercy for being a sinner, went home Justified.

So where in the Bible is todays prescription of this sinners prayer that I keep hearing all the churches calling people forward to say this prayer and all the preachers on television as well.

Have I missed something here?

Am I seeing something real that is existing in our churches today but NOT in the first Century Church?

Just an honest question.

I know for me, I didn't need to be in a church to accept Jesus as the Christ and indeed God, who died for the ungodly thereby proclaiming forgiveness to ALL WHO BELIEVE and was resurrected so that we may have eternal life with HIM. Nor did I have need to say this "sinners prayer" in front of the world or a church congregation for that matter. It was from my own mouth to Jesus Christ in the privacy of my own home.

God judges our hearts......nothing else.

Now when I got baptized at a church, of course that was my showing others that I'm a believer just like them. Was asked to give a testimony. So that would be "confessing with my mouth" I'm supposing.

Any thoughts how it came that we have all this fan fare in our churches today,,,,with the music softly playing in the background as the pastor pleas for people to come up front to say this "sinners prayer?"

Does this make me a ......eeee gags! a, a,,,,a ......HERETIC!!! Yowie..now that would be insane wouldn't it?

Anyway,,,just some thoughts.....

Denise
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, the "sinner's prayer" is not a formula--it's simply a prayer acknowledging that one is a sinner and lost without a Savior. In this prayer one also asks Jesus to be his or her Savior and submits him or herself to Jesus in acceptance of His death and resurrection for him or her.

In short, it's accepting Jesus as one's Savior. I suspect the reason something called the "Sinner's Prayer" has come into existence is that some people "accept Jesus" without surrendering and admitting they are hopeless sinners. In fact, I know a person who struggled for years to admit they were truly a lost sinner. They had no problem praying or claiming Jesus, but they refused for a long time to admit that they were hopeless and needed Jesus for their own acceptance by God. This person just couldn't say s/he was a sinner.

The so-called Sinner's Prayer is merely admitting one's abject need and accepting Jesus' gift and asking Him to be their Savior and Lord.

Further, the "sinner's prayer" is not something that must be done with an audience. It's always between the person and Jesus, but sometimes someone leads another to Jesus, and that person prays to admit his need and to accept Jesus while in the presence of the person who witnessed to him/her.

I had a negative visceral reaction to the term "sinner's prayer" for yearsóAdventists do not use the termóbut I've come to realize that it implies something important that most Adventists--and many others as well--have trouble acknowledging.

Isn't it wonderful that Jesus saved us In Our Sins?! And isn't it wonderful that he doesn't leave us there?

Colleen
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is "the sinners prayer"? Over at St. John's Lutheran where I attend we recite the Our Father every service. The Our Father covers everything we would every need to pray about.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, it's not a specific prayer (although sometimes one can find it printed so one can pray it without leaving out any component). It's just a prayer to admit one is hopelessly sinful and needs Jesus as one's Savior, and accepting His death and resurrection to cover one's sins. It's just a prayer to accept Christ.

My older son just wrote his testimony, and he tells how as a younger person (Adventist) he never understood what it meant to accept Christ. He was baptized and joined the church, and he understood that he had to "accept Jesus". He just didn't really know what that meant. It wasn't until about four years after his Adventist baptism that he understood what it meant to know Jesus, and he intentionally accepted Jesus as his Savior. He acknowledged that he needed a Savior, and he accepted Jesus.

The Lord's Prayer does cover our basic needs. But each follower of Jesus has to personally surrender him/herself to Jesus and accept his sacrifice. That's all the "sinner's prayer" is!

Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Colleen,

I agree with this that you said:

"Denise, the "sinner's prayer" is not a formula--it's simply a prayer acknowledging that one is a sinner and lost without a Savior." I say AMEN to that!!

But this part is something I have yet to find in the Bible and you stated it twice in your post, can you show me some Scriptures?:

"In this prayer one also asks Jesus to be his or her Savior." and again later you stated it this way (this was the last part of the second time you said this btw):

"...and asking Him to be their Savior and Lord."

Again, please refer me to Scriptures as I've missed those ones.

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post and concur that many, if not, most of ALL the Christians I know, do NOT think themselves sinners or they minimize their sins by maintaining a thought something like this: "Well, I'm not THAT BAD as that guy or gal!"

Alot of Christians really do think themselves as being not sinful or not THAT sinful, don't they?

Boy, I can sure tell ya, that's not the case now nor was it the case with me! Yikes..infact, when I read God's Word for the first time, it shook me up cause it only convicted me of how bad a sinner I was. And THIS is what had me so amazed as to why our God would save someone the likes of me. Amazing Grace for sure!

Yes, Praise God that He saved us while we were yet in our sins! As to not leaving us there...hmmm, I'd say that spiritually speaking, since we have been born again, we are seen as perfect by God and are completely Sanctified and Holy RIGHT NOW. Infact, we are CURRENTLY seated in Heavenly Realms.

But there's a paradox of sorts. For even though through HIM we WERE made PERFECT (past tense), we are yet being made perfect and are yet being sanctified and being made Holy.....What a paradox huh?

So, it is God working in us to the Praise of HIS Glory. For we are HIS Workmanship (poem) to do the works of HIM that called us.

Oh, I know I haven't quoted Scripture and right now can't see well enough to look at the small print but hopefully someone will print the Scriptures here or wait until I can read the smaller print again.

We truly have an Amazing Beautiful God! Who can understand that kind of love? I sure can't. Sometimes when I think about it, it just baffles me how HE can love any of us.....but especially me! Do you ever just get knocked down by the reality of how much this God of ours Loves us?? I'm sure you do too, infact, anybody who really understands the Gospel probably has this happen to them on and off throughout their entire life. Don't ya think?

I read Pauls epistles and he is always amazed at the love of God. It kept just knocking him down too it seems like. By 'knocking down,' I don't mean, falling flat on our faces, I mean...BLOWN AWAY by such Love!

Maybe SDAs have that reaction because of the same reasons that some other Christians have...and that being that they don't realize what sinners they really are when compared to our God. Don't ya think that could be the case or a possibility anyway?

Course, I know when I was SDA and before that raised with the Jewish Customs, Feasts etc., I never really thought of myself as a sinner either. At least not until in my mid to late 30s...and I kept running from God as I did in order to avoid all the "rituals, Feasts, Sabbaths etc.," that we were to rigidly keep in order to be 'supposedly right' with God.

Once, I hit my 40s, and really started reading the Bible, it startled me at how sinful I was and all I could do was drop to my knees and repent with many tears. So, to church I go, then Baptism and here I am...still just a sinner....BUT,,,HALLELU-YAH! to God for HIS MATCHLESS SAVING GRACE!!

Well, there I went again...just rambling. Forgive me folks...I get wild over here sometimes. Ask anyone that knows me,,,(right Colleen? :) )

Blessings to all and thank you Colleen for help in this area.

Denise, Saved by God's GRACE. amen.
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 1:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,
I agree with your point, and I also agree with Colleen. The sinners prayer is "not" a formula, it is an affirmation of faith (funny thing is that when I was a SDA the affirmation of faith was the fourth commandment--but that is a horse of a different color).

1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. I believe that means all past present and future sin. As an Adventist, this meant that you had to make sure you confessed every sin--it was an ongoing thing. In fact, I even learned to ask God to forgive all my sins, "known and unknown." Well, God has brought me new understanding.

The greek word for sin comes from the root word "harmatano" which means to "miss the mark." Once again, as an Adventist, the "mark" was obedience to the ten commandments. Now, I understand the mark to be completeness in Jesus. Eve missed the mark when she believed that Serpent's lie that God was withholding something from them. When I miss the mark, I begin to seek to fill the God shaped void in me with all manner of false Gods. That is the essence of sin--unbelief.

In Acts 16:30, the Phillipian jailer asked the question, "what must I do to be saved.?" Paul responded, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." In other words, he was saying, repent (which actually means to "think again," not "change your behavior") from your "unbelief," or " think again" about who/what is the leader in your life.

So, when I confess that I am a sinner, I affirm that there is no good thing in me, and that salvation comes only through Jesus. I am ready to make him Lord of my life. It is a necessary step. I have been going to church for 40+ years. In that time, I bet I have missed going to church less than 10 times (be it on Saturday or Sunday). I have served in just about every possible position in the church, have given numerous sermons and bible studies. But, it is only recently that I have come to acknowledge myself as a sinner, separated from God. I believe it is important to make a conscious confession of this point. Otherwise, you live with the lie that says, "I'm not really so bad."

Now, herein lies the problem with the sinner's prayer (in my opinion). In most churches, it is just that, a formula prayer. As you said, the music begins to play something soft like, "Are You Ready for Jesus to Come?" and someone says, "Jesus is coming soon, get ready before it's too late. Who knows if this may be your last time in church. If you want to be saved when Jesus comes, repeat this prayer after me..." You are absolutely right when you say that there is no scriptural support for that kind of evangelism. That is nothing more than "fire insurance."

Unless a person has reached the end of their rope, repeating those words will be useless, because they will go right back out and continue to live under their own power--just as separated from God as they were when they came in. It doesn't matter if they are a drug dealer or the biggest philantropist in town. If they are not experiencing the life (the Greek word is "zoe"--it refers to the quality of life rather than the physiological aspect of life) that is only found in Christ, they are chasing a false God and therefore are a sinner.

So to conclude this rambling post, I think there is great benefit in confessing that you are a sinner and asking Jesus to wipe the slate clean and be Lord of your life. But, I think this is done in the quietness of ones spirit, and not through the recitation of a series of words. Its literally a matter of life and death.

In His Grace

Doug
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow Doug,

I have just learned a great deal from your post! Thank you 1000 times!

And this statement in part: "Unless a person has reached the end of their rope,...."

oh, how I can remember that so well! That's what it took in me, I know that.

I have a question for you. It's regarding this part of your post that I'm not quite understanding:

". If they are not experiencing the life (the Greek word is "zoe"--it refers to the quality of life rather than the physiological aspect of life) that is only found in Christ, they are chasing a false God and therefore are a sinner."

The question goes something like this, by 'experiencing life that is only found in Christ',,,,you are not at all suggesting a neccesity of behavioral changes, correct? From the rest of your post, I'm concluding that you are not, but for me and perhaps others to better understand that part, would you mind rewording it or clarifying so that we all (especially me) could benefit the meaning that you especially would like to get through.

Your post is a great benefit for the edification of the saints and I thank the Lord that you attributed to this thread.

May God Bless you always.

Praising God for His Word to us!

Denise, still the berean and still a learnin' :)
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 4:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, Were you Worldwide Church of God? If not, then what denomination were you in? My parent raised me mostly SDA but also we went to the Church of God, 7th=day as well as the WCG and after Garner Ted got kicked out we went t his church, the Church of God, International sometimes, too. My favorite church growing up was the 7th-day Baptist. Of course, Sunday churchs were not even an option. But, my parents didn't much like the 7th-day Baptist because that church doesn't have enough rules and, on, no!, there is pork at the potlucks! I always remember telling them that so what if there's pork, they don't have to eat it. But, it just was too disguesting to them that there could even be pork at achurch function. Well, that's life! (For some of us, anyway.)
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 7:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I understand it, the Sinners Prayer originated with the Pentecostals. I guess you could call it the 'closing' to their emotional sales pitch to 'get saved' and avoid hell. Remember also that many Pentecostals believe in 'once saved,always saved'. So, for them, a confession as found in the Sinners' Prayer is assurance enough that the person is 'saved' and now can't be lost. It's not Biblical, and what I find is that usually the Sinners Prayer goes along with some pretty bad theology.

On the other hand, I have seen something like this prayer used with folks who want to accept Christ, but are totally unchurched. They just don't have any concept of 'prayer' or talking to God and for these folks a prepared prayer like this one or the 'Our Father' can be a good way to get them started. I'd say in the end, the test of whether something is 'good' or not is just to look at the fruit it bears and the purposes for which it is used. Does that help?

Bill
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 8:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,
Thank you for your kind words. You know, for the first time in my life, I actualy feel like I have something to share--course I didn't know that before (when all I was sharing with people was a bunch of rules). Essentially that's like telling an alcoholic that if he wants to be well, all he needs to do is quit drinking. I'm not sure how familiar you are with AA, but they call that a "dry drunk." The reason is that he has essentially only changed his drug of choice. Whatever was causing him to drink in the first place has not changed.

I was using the alcoholic example as an analogy, but now let's get practical with it. What is it that was causing him to drink? Its the God shaped void in his life. All he knows is that he is experiencing pain and he wants it to stop. Because he is a sinner (remember, we said that was a failure to believe that our completeness is found in Christ), he seeks to fill the emptiness with a bottle. If he comes to most churches, they will tell him he must stop drinking if he wants to be a Christian--afterall drinking (the behavior) is a sin. So, he says okay, and quits drinking. The problem is that he still has that emptiness and will likely run to some other addiction (eating, need to control, workaholism, legalism, relationships, etc. etc.) to ease the pain.

I intentionally provided a list of activities that most Christians don't consider necessarily sin. I could just have easily added things like (illicit sex, drugs, materialism, etc.). The bottom line is that this man is not free. He is as much in bondage now as he was when he was on the bottle. What he needs to recognize (more than a mental assent) is that his completeness can not be found in any of these things. It can only be found in Christ.

This is where I believe many churches let people down. They make the goal eternal life (with the emphasis on the quantity of life) In other words, "you can live forever." That's what I meant by "fire insurance." I remember thinking (and I'm sure others can relate) that I wasn't sure I wanted to live forever (because it would be boring), but I didn't want to die either (so I continued on my little hamster wheel, trying to be a good little boy). What a miserable existence--I was just like the alchoholic.

On the other hand, Jesus offers eternal life (with the emphasis on the quality of life--zoe). He says we can have the completeness that Adam and Eve had, but we can have it forever (and it can begin right now). Do you see the difference? Humanly, we ask, what's the minimum standard to get in. God's not concerned with those standards, because he wants to give us everything. That's why he has given us His Spirit as the earnest (downpayment) on our inheritance.

Once again, this is a long post, but I need to make one more point in conclusion. I think by now you know that I am not talking about behavioral change (necessarily). God is not keeping track of our wrongs to see how much zoe we are experiencing. The magnificance of the Gospel is that he freely offers us water from the living fountain. Because we still have a sinful (unbelieving) nature, we will not experience that total completeness until the second coming--when we receive our glorified bodies. But God, in his wonderful benevolence makes up for our inadequacies. He said through JOhn, "these things I write that you sin (unbelieve) not (and that you would experience the fullness of my gift). But if you do sin (fall short), you have an advocate in the father." Now that's grace--and its made perfect in weakness!

There has been much talk on this forum about worship. I believe that true worship only occurs when one understands what I just wrote. We see God as worthy of our praise and adoration. We fall before him and say, "holy, holy, holy." Absent this understanding, we can do church (I did that [and still do from time to time], we can have religious rituals (oh don't I know about them), but we cannot worship.

Hopefull this answers your questions. I have responded as God has revealed his grace to me. I like your signature line though. Be a Berean and check it out for your self.

In His Grace

Doug
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 8:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill,
Can you explain what you mean when you say that most Pentecostals believe in "once saved always saved?" What does that expression mean to you? Thanks.

Doug
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, Jesus is t5he one who TAUGHT his followes to recite the Our Father. When I say the Our Father I can assure everyone, especially our Lord Jesus that even though I know the words by heart none of the word are said without 100% heartfelt meaning on my part. The words of the Our Father are the second most favorite part of the wortship service for me. The first being partisipation of the Eucharist. The third most meaningful part of the service is reciting the creeds. I LOVE reciting the creeds. I often do this while alone driving he car. I also am working on memorizing the Prayer of St. Francis of Asissi and the Prayer of St. Patrick. BTW, I recently attended the local SDA church with my elderly mother and the minister up front recited the Prayer of St. Francis of Asissi. He didn't identiy it as such, I guess for not wanting yto freek out he Adventsts, but he di say something along this, "I want to read to you a lovely prayer I have come across and I want you all to reflect on the meaning of the words while I read this prayer". I immeditelly recognised it as the Prayer of St. Francis and on the way out after the service concluded when the minister was at the back greeting the customers I told him how the Prayer of St. Francis is one f my favorites and I quietly at my seat said it along with him. He said to me, "Yes I read the Prayer of St. Francis" and that concuded that conversation. Yep, this was in the local SDA church just recenty.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I agree with what you said about not being able to worship until we find we are filled with Jesus. (Not your exact words...) Worship was what was missing for me all those years.


I totally agree that accepting Jesus is something that happens between that person and God. I totally agree that praying to accept Jesus is not about just making sure we live forever. In fact, the only reason I even used the words "sinner's prayer" is that I believe the two things it stresses are important: admitting one is fatally flawed and hopeless, and accepting the only hope in the universe: Jesus. The "trappings" that often go with something called the sinner's prayer are rituals that often serve no purpose.

It still is so amazing to find that Jesus really fills me, and I love worshipping nowówhich, by the way, does not have to happen just at church, either!

Praise God!

Colleen
Windmotion (Windmotion)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lately I have been trying to reconcile the "once saved always saved" argument in my head. Recently I concluded it isn't the same as the "can you lose your salvation" argument. To me, losing your salvation implies a one time mistake having lasting consequences. Such as you misplace something stupidly, and then you really want it, but you can't find it again. I do not see how salvation can be lost in this way, but after much thinking and reading I have conceded that if a person truly rejects Christ, He won't make that person stay a Christian. (I don't believe this happens often.) Anyways I don't think God forces someone to be saved.
-Hannah
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do some of you folks on this forum disagree with Christian rituals? By rituls I am referring to such things as taking part in the Eucharist, reciting the Our Father, reciting the Creeds, even bapitism, etc.? I love the rituals. To me they are not meaningless rote but rather are very rich and meaningful in my Christian walk and also with helping me learn to trust my Heavenlly Father in Faith. The rituals are one of the things that I so love about worshipping weekly at St. Johns Lutheran. Some Lutheran churches even have more rituals than at St. Johns so when I'm fortunate enough to be out of the area and I end up visiting at a Lutheran church that even has more rituals then oh, boy, I feel like I've walked through the pearley gates and I love every minute of the worship service. Those so-called, rituals are not meaningless. They are deep and just overflowing with bringing one in a close accord with our Lord Jesus.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 6:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, I think you sort of answered your own question. You love it, so unless the Holy Spirit leads you otherwise-enjoy! I don't prefer that much structure. I rather like going to a church that allows the Holy Spirit to take over the service and something new going on. That's my preference. I don't like repetition, the same ole thing week after week, and I don't like a quiet crowd. If someone wants to stand up and shout hallelujia, I think it should be welcomed. On the other hand, I don't like 'wild' churches where there's so much confusion there's no reverance. We're all different and we all walk in the light we have. :)
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that worship rituals are neither bad nor good in themselves. Some people, such as you, Susan, really benefit greatly from formal worship and ritual. Others are able to worship more freely when they are not "led" through the steps.

Certain practices, such as baptism and the Lord's Supper, are "rituals", if you want to call them that, that Jesus asked us to do. These are physical reminders of and symbols of truths so important that we need to seal them in our experience not only mentally and spiritually but physically as well. I suspect that worship style preferences have something to do with personality and also something to do with what parts of our worship freedoms were denied us in our past.

I always liked the "high church" feel of SDA congregations that had choirs, pipe organs, and lofty music. In fact, I remember how condescending I felt about churches who used "cheap" music in their services. (Can you tell I was thoroughly shaped by an SDA music degree?)

To my astonishment I LOVE the worship and praise music we have at church now. In fact, I've discovered that knowing Jesus and knowing I'm saved has made those songs meaningful in ways they never could have been before. I think that the more formal, classic worship services really do provide wonderful ways to worship the "transcendent God", God who is bigger and outside us, God who is God of the universe. Worship and praise music, on the other hand, provides more of an outlet for experiencing and worship the "imminent God", God who lives in us. Both aspects of God are true. But I had so much "transcendent worship" without even personally KNOWING the indwelling God in my life that I find it an amazing privilege stand and clap and worship the God who saved me and love me!

I still love the transcendence of great classical music and worship, but I no longer find it complete. On the other hand, I know former Adventists who find so much freedom and reverence and holiness in the beauty and liturgy of of Episcopal services, for instance. I suspect that people who grew up in small churches where neither the services nor the music were well-prepared or meaningful and where the people did not have relationships with God will find deep satisfaction in liturgical services where the specific beliefs and practices of Christianity are emphasized and deliberately practiced.

At any rate, rituals are fine as long as they do not become the focus of our attention or something we think is essential for knowing God. As aids to worship, they are wonderful.

Praise God for the freedom to woship Him as He leads us to worship!

Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Doug and everyone else postng or reading,

I'm not too able to type right now but this is aa great thead! I wil respnde as soon as pssible. Perhaps toight.

Blessings to ALL!

Denise Gilmore
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The comments above are wonderful. Yes, I really prefer the literagy form of worship. However, on Monday evenings I like to attend a prayer and praise group over here at St. Pats Catholic. It's held in the smal side chapel nd several folks bring theit tamberines and several of the Hispanic ladies bring those instraents that have beans in them that they shake to the music that makes such a lovely sound. Are they called marrichies? There is no piano or organ. We sing praise songs. Ther are several of us who go regurlly who are not Catholic. Most of the folks there do the talking in tongues. I watch and listen. It sounds nice. But, even this is very sturctured and at the same time very lovely.
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, when I say 'once saved, always saved', I'm referring to the idea that once you are 'saved'you can never be lost. According to this idea, even if you turn your back on God you aren't lost----instead, they call it 'being out of fellowship'. It's as if God is a tar-baby and once stuck to Him you are always stuck, and this teaching is just not Biblical. The New Testament teaches that you can rebel and choose not to be a Christian and be lost.

Clear as mud?
Bill

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration