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Snali (Snali)
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone,I have a friend who is a long time SDA ans we have recently started a friendly conversation on SDAdoctrine and I have found that he wont even adress the idea that EGW might be wrong and he generally quotes the usual SDA texts and lines. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to approach this.
Snali
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know I sure don't, I have the same problem. The only thing we can do is pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to them and that they will listen. Some people are very open minded about everything, like my aunt who was relieved at my studies and who now believes that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. My mother, on the other hand, ignores anything that might refute her church. I have decided that her faith is in her church and I can only pray for her to find faith in Jesus. Our own testimonies and examples have to have an impact on them at some level I think. If we push too much, we push them away, so I think we should state why we believe what we believe and then if they have any further questions, answer them.
Jtree (Jtree)
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 4:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you have all heard the ol saying..

"where you treasure is, is where your heart may be found".
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, I've found that it's good to keep asking questions in a probing honest way that invites them to get into the Bible. Questions can range from anything to "Do you know what a Berean is, Mom? What does Paul say about them?....to "What's the New Covenant? Are you afraid that if you left the church you'd lose your salvation? Who is salvation through? Can you share with me the Gospel? How do you know if you're saved?..." Whatever the question, pray and ask God for help in the questions to ask. Jesus used questions alot to help his listeners seek their own hearts out. Excellent speakers and listeners ask questions to help change thinking in their listeners. Simply telling them doesn't work. It may plant seeds, but I find questions go a lot farther. God will indeed give wisdom to those who ask, and He will help you ask what He wants you to.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, maybe it's because I'm the daughter and she is supposed to know more than me. I don't know, but I have asked, "What is the meaning of the birth, death and resurrection to you?" I get NO RESPONSE! I asked what does Romans 14 say to you? I get, "oh, I've read that before, people have tried to use that one before." She has told me that I've been deceived and she is so fearful of being deceived that she is scared to death to even consider the fact that just maybe her beloved church, the remnant, doesn't have the truth. For this reason it is a cult, and the scripture says the veil is only lifted through Jesus. That is what worries me the most.

I will keep praying for the Holy Spirit to speak to her.
Jtree (Jtree)
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 4:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have any of ya's tryed using Mark Martin's real audio programs?

Just play one when they are around.

:-)

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/real.html

especially the Testimonies...
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is amazing, isn't it Sabra! Oh how that must hurt your heart so. All I can say is that maybe it's in those times that we treat those just as a believing spouse does a non-believing spouse....that our actions, our love for them, our following Jesus, without using words, will compell them to want what we have. Make her thirsty for Jesus, by God's grace.

I had a church member whom I tried communicating to about the deception of Ellen White. She told me that she didn't want to find out - if it was true. I guess that knowledge of how it could change her life forever was too much, and she'd rather live in willing ignorance than follow God. Ostrich with head in the sand mentality. Ofcourse I've been there, done that too. Praise God for Him touching our lives at just the right time. He is so gracious.

I did try those real audios with my husband at the beginning. They did more to turn him off from listening to "that crap" then good. I honestly believe through God's working in his heart in prayer that me being bold but gentle about why I was believing how I was, and times of silence and action did more for helping him then anything else. If the people are afraid to study the Word with you then you have to ask the question - this is a book you say you stand on...surely how can I intimidate you in the study of it. Show me what you know and I'll show you what I know. I remember when Jon's friend came over, I asked them to read Galatians together. We stayed up till 1 a.m. studying. At least it got them in the Word, though it didn't change them a whole lot except for start Jon on an understanding of the New Covenant, which eventually took him to where he is today. I think for Jon, to show that I can love his SDA friends goes farther then any words I have to say. Standing firm but yet loving others and hopefully touching their lives for Jesus. And only God helps me love...that's for darn sure. God keeps convicting me with "acting as if", and He'll supply the rest. In the act of obedience, lots of prayer and time spent abiding in Christ, He will change me and He will heal my own heart. I know that for sure.
Shephil222 (Shephil222)
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Carol,
I sent you an email a few weeks ago. Did you Get it? I was only wondering. If not I'll send it again. Ok. So, How is everyone doing? Great I hope.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, I think you may have hit on the main problem; do they really want to know? I know if somehow she came to understand it all she would be devastated. She works for SDA's, all of her friends are SDA, her WORLD is SDA. Unlike myself, who was married to a non-SDA and out of church for almost a decade. Strangely enough, I think I sort-of needed that time to dis-associate myself with that whole "world" and way of thinking. I know some are really sad to know the truth, they have their little comfort-zone there. God's grace is sufficient for them if they are truly ignorant, only He can judge their hearts.
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is a very hard thing to break from. Especially if you have no strong Christians are outside the SDA church....May I sugget though that if you ask her questions, encourage questions that will simply build a relationship with your mom in a non-defensive way (of course she may be distrustful at first but don't let it get to ya)....you know just questions about what Jesus means to her. And sharing what God's doing in your life. It'll make her thirsty I believe to want the vibrant alive relationship you have in Christ. :) That's why we are salt...to make people thirsty, and then we lead them to the Living Waters who will quench their soul!! Praise God for Jesus Christ. :) Blessings.

Oh, ps....I totally understand to time for dis-associating yourself....had to do that myself. Totally repulsed me to do anything with an SDA.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mom and I have decided in the separation of church and our relationship! We don't discuss any theology. She is one to ignore things while I am one to dredge things up for years, so it is best at least for now that we simply take her aproach and ignore the subject. We aren't enemies, we actually get along better than we used to, she did mention to my aunt (which my cousin told me) that she sees I am closer to God than I have ever been. It's all a process, I'm sure, of which I have no control. I just pray that God can use me in whatever way He needs me.:)
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very true. Blessings, Sabra.
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jtree,

Yes, Pastor Mark Martin has an excellent Web site.
The audio messages add alot to his online ministry. I also like his doctrinal studies.

Dennis J. Fischer
Daniel_Marsh (Daniel_Marsh)
Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sherry2, have you tried a indirect approach like giving her a copy of a book called "Combating Cultic Mind Control" since this book does not directly attack adventism, but deals with common mind control tatics like the information control tatic you describe above, that being selective sources of information and avoiding material that is critical of her church. Often, someone in these situations can read a book like this and spot these tatics in other groups, then the Holy Spirit helps them start recognizing those tatics in their church.

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/books/combatting.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=combating+cultic+mind+control
Lucias (Lucias)
Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't necessarily have an answer. But I do think anything that uses the word "cult" will immediatley send up the defenses, especially if given them by an "outsider".

I may be wrong about how people will react. I usually am ;-)

Higher up in this thread was the question of "do they really want to know". And I do think this is key. Inertia is powerful.

I have a relative who has said, "Mother studied into this. If there was anything to it she would have found it." also when the topic of plagerism came up "Oh that we dealt with that in the 80s. They looked into it and found there was nothing to it."

Essentially, as long as someone, anyone, believes it then its OK by me. But I don't want to look into it myself.

This is key.

But I also do not think that one who believes as SDA's do is not saved. I would hesitate to push to hard because there is also the risk that they will react to the entire Christian faith.

I really do think Paul meant what he said in Romans 14 when he said we should welcome those of other opinions on disputable matters, and then listed all of the points we dispute on. But, he says, not for arguing.

I think that goes both ways.
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Daniel. Thanks for the book name. I think you meant to direct your post to Sabra. She was the one asking for help I think, not I. But a good book no doubt.

Lucias, right with ya. I have been told, even by people here, that now, wasn't it great to be saved - in context it denied that I could've been saved as an SDA. It hurt and it was wrong. It still ticks me off to think about. If there was one place I expected to be safe from that rhetoric it was here. But we're human... Was I saved while SDA. You better believe it! Is every SDA walking saved? No, just as not every Baptist, Pentecostal, or other "Christian" is. Our walk with Jesus is based on our faith relationship, not on our denomination. It's based in Christ. Perfect theology does not save us. Perfect Christ does. "Call upon the Lord and ye shall be saved" applies to SDA's too. Doctrines are extremely messed but when one serves God out of trueness to his/her conscience, to do otherwise would be sin. God looks upon the heart.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good point, Sherry! I didn't KNOW I was saved securely until I left Adventism, but I know that all my life I wanted to know truth, and I wanted to belong to Jesus. Even though I really didn't understand what that meant, I wanted it. I absolutely believe that God knows our hearts. If we are open to truth and desire to find it, he honors that desire. I believe that many Adventists are saved because they really want the truth and really want to know Jesus and have accepted him as far as they are able to understand what that means.

The beauty is that, as you said, Sherry, our Perfect Christ saves us, not our theology. I suspect that if those who desire truth live long enough, God eventually leads them closer and closer to leaving until they finally leave. Especially now, since the hidden secrets of the past and of EGW's plagiarism and of the unbiblical doctrines is no longer a secret from anyone honestly desiring truth, people are more and more able to pursue it.

I know that I was saved as an Adventist as I look back. I wasn't sure at the time, but in retrospect, I know I was. I know that the Holy Spirit was leading me for years, desiring more, desiring answers, and finally leading me to that place where obedience is really a crisis: would I risk everything to leave Adventism.

I know that not all Adventists are saved. But I know that many are, and God is calling them to himself.

God is so good! He saves us IN our sin and deception. Our response is to trust him as he reveals himself to us and to respond with obedience as he shows us more and more truth.

Thank you for such a great post above, Sherry!

Secure in Jesus,
Colleen
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry and Colleen,
I do appreciate your posts on "being saved" in the SDA church. "Being Confident...that He...will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"
"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, to lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me".

I am SO thankful for this forum! You ALL have been helping me alot, as I continue to read the discussions. I am so full of hope as I learn to focus on Christ alone.

Because of Him,
Janet
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Inertia... Means an object at "Rest" (as in Sabbath) tends to stay at "Rest". Hmm...
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, The more I get into reading these messages, the more I feel like I am in a dream and am reading my own thoughts, what you are saying are my thoughts exactly. My mother has been with SDA for over five years now, and it used to be that mama was proud of me and bragged to coworkers of my knowledge of Holy scripture but now that she has come to know the TRUTH according to EGW, all of a sudden I am a know-it-all who thinks she hasn't gotten enough sense to decide her beliefs for herself. She smarted off and asked who told me that only Baptists went to heaven. I truly believe, in fact know, that my mother has never studied her Bible at all until she got literature from my sister, a SDA, I think that she feels good about herself since she gave up the makeup, the jewelry, the meat, Sunday service, etc. You now the drill. Anyway, I do think that she believes that since she is the mother and I am the daughter that she indeed is more mature than I am. In spiritual years, I am ages older than her. Sorry mom, being older doesn't necessarily mean being more mature, besides that, we are told that as NEWBORN BABES in Christ we should earnestly desire the sincere milk of the Word so that we can grow. A study of this scripture gives insight to the fact that just because we came to the Lord, prayed the sinner's prayer, and got baptized doesn't mean that this is where it ends. After all, Jesus did tell the religious leader that you must be born again, and a study of what that means would reveal a lot about our spiritual understanding of the true salvation plan. No.1- We are Saved by grace through faith and No. 2-faith comes by hearing and No. 3--Hearing from the Word of God and believing is the key to our salvation, not WORKS or observances. He writes his laws in our hearts and the laws are summed up in Matthew 22:36-40 and is the new law given with the death of Christ. If you study I Peter 2:2--The word desire is rich in meaning as we study it out, the word earnestly means that we do it with pure hearts while digging for truth in the word. The word sincere in this verse means that the truth of the gospel is poured out throughout scripture with the love of the Holy Spirit, God loves us and we are to grow and feel confidient in the fact that he is truly ABBA=daddy and we can overcome any obstacle when living in light of his truth. This certainly doesn't give any of us the license to send and it offends me when people tell me that the Eternal Security theory is a bunch of hooey (This is exactly what my SDA sister calls it, a bunch of hooey) I did what many have said to do in this forum, I have asked her about her salvation, you know the question: If you died right now, where would you be throughout eternity? Well, I got the reply that there was absolutely no way that anybody could know for sure where they would end up. When I told her that this was a lie, two days later my mailbox was filled with books from the SDA church library. I took these books and got my red ink pen out and used a concordance to find scripture to write along side the lies within those pages and returned them to her with a letter and some books of my own from reliable Christian evangelist resources, the next week I got those books back with a request not to send anymore 'religious literature of any kind' and a note to say that she had to throw her church books away because I had chosen to deface them. Sorry folks, but I do not and will not ever apologize for doing the work of an evangelist and exposing the lies of EGW as you all have been doing at this great forum. I have heard of forums but this is my first time to join one and I am loving it, I am glad that my husband loves to hunt and do other things and not get mad at me while expounding on the gospel. He loves it that I am so happy here at this computer sharing with my new found brothers and sisters in Christ. Looking forward to further correspondence with you all as I learn how to manoveur through this site. Love you all, Janice

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