| Author |
Message |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 6:27 pm: |     |
It's www.watchthetower.com
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Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 8:13 pm: | |
Thanks Steve, Steve I have two questions for you. Did God command the children of Israel to posses the land of promise before He wrote the Ten Commandments or after. And what version of the Ten Commandments were the original Ex.20 or Deut. 5 |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 9:51 pm: | |
Hi Carol,
OK. I've killed a little time reading the article. Here is my response (it'll probably be longer than I anticipate.)
They start out by saying that Jesus was a "Great Teacher..."
Many don't realize that this apparently positive statement, is actually an initial deception to demote Jesus from who He said He to the level of a mere human being. More on this later.
Paragraph 2 is stated that Jesus gave His disciples a command that could be "an antidote to many of the world's ills." They explain that the commandment to love is the greatest and first commandment.
They are absolutely correct in stating what Jesus said about the greatest commandment. They are absolutely wrong that human beings following this commandment can solve many of the worlds problems. (The way I read Peter and Revelation, the earth is not going to be in very good shape near and at the end of its existence.)
Then a most important statement is made.
"Jesus showed us by words and deeds how to love God and fellow humans. Let us consider a few examples and see what we can learn from him."
In the Watchtower organization, Jesus is primarily the "way-shower," the "example." He is not our substitute, except for past sins! (The atonement of Jesus was not complete. Sound familiar?)
They present a few tidbits from the sermon on the Mount, regarding love of money and love of God.
They make this SDA-like statement:
"Those who learn about his qualities and come to love him are moved to observe his commandments. By doing so, we benefit ourselves."
Hmmm. Apparently the purpose of loving God (the first of the two greatest commandments) is to BENEFIT OURSELVES! Hey, what about God?!
They then go on to show how our love for "fellow humans" is so important. Then they state:
"Would not such love solve many of the problems that we face today? Hindu leader Mohandas Gandhi thought so. He is quoted as saying: 'When [we] shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems . . . of the whole world.' Jesus' teachings about love, if applied, can solve many of mankind's ills."
First, I would not take Mahatma Gandhi as a spiritual leader. I know that this is not politically correct, but I'm a Christian, not a Hindu. Secondly, following the admonition of Christ does not "solve the worlds problems." Most Christians know that when we love others, even our enemies, it does not necessarily make them our friends, nor eliminate evil.
Please don't get me wrong. We should love others. However, the ultimate result we hope for is their coming to Jesus for salvation.
They say:
"Jesus did more for people than teach them. He also extended practical help."
According to Jesus, His words are Life. The bread would pass through and be gone in a short time. But if one drank the water He provides, one would never thirst again! So much for "practical help" like fish, bread and water.
OK, enough of the minor stuff. Let's get to the very heretical part of their teaching in this article.
They try to explain who Jesus is by saying,
"He had a prehuman existence as the only-begotten Son of God."
To the average person, including Christians, this statement may look perfectly normal. Having studied with them for years and read much of their literature, we should NOT take that statement at face value.
They did not state that Jesus was one with the Father. They did not state that "the Word was God" (John 1:1). The NWT (New World Translation) of the Watchtower states, "the Word was a god."
In the Watchtower, Jesus is a secondary deity that the Father created at some point in the past, but who did NOT have existence from everlasting to everlasting.
Regarding Jesus' perfect life, they say:
"With the existence of a perfect human life, the price to redeem mankind from sin and death became available. Yet, the baby born on earth as Jesus had to grow up to be the 'physician' able to furnish the 'medication' to cure mankind's ills."
Question: Did Jesus have to grow up to be the "physician" to cure mankind's ills?"
Answer: I believe that Jesus, as a baby in the manger could have saved me from my sins. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the word. He didn't have to "grow up." That's a fairly infantile way to think about Jesus and His blood.
They say:
"He showed that a perfect man can be obedient to the Creator despite even the greatest trials."
Is that what He showed? Jesus did not live a perfect life to show us that WE can be obedient (to perfection) despite the greatest trials.
Jesus lived a perfect life so that we could be redeemed. Redemption was His purpose in coming, it was His purpose in living, it was His purpose in Death, it was His purpose in resurrection and it will be His purpose in coming again.
Near the end, they make another statement that seems OK to most folks. They say:
"His sacrificed perfect human life became the ransom price, able to redeem mankind from sin and death."
When Jehovah's Witnesses say this, they mean that the price Jesus paid is to ransom manking FROM their sins and give them an example to follow so that we stop sinning and start living an obedient, perfect life.
They say:
"On the third day after his death, Jesus was resurrected to spirit life, and some weeks later he ascended to heaven to present the ransom price to Jehovah God. By doing so, Jesus was able to apply the merit of his ransom sacrifice to those who follow him."
Two important points here:
1. "Resurrected to spirit life." The Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that Jesus rose from the dead bodily. They believe that His body was "evaporated into gases" by the Father. The Father then "manufactured" spirit-bodies for the Son so that whenever He needed to appear, He could APPEAR TO BE PHYSICAL, without really being physical.
(Isn't it amazing how these Satanic and demon-filled people always try to make our God into a deceiver? Satan is the deceiver, not God!)
Yeah, I know. Strong language. Let the arrows fly!
They finish off the next to last paragraph stating that by presenting "the ransom price to Jehovah God. . . Jesus was able to apply the merit of his ransom sacrifice to those who follow him."
The scriptures are very clear on this. Jesus' death on the cross was the point at which the Fathers wrath was taken off of mankind and placed squarely on the shoulders of Jesus, our Scapegoat.
And the "ransom sacrifice" is not given to those who "follow him." His salvation is given to all who BELIEVE. Remember Romans 5:8-9,
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
According to Romans, I wasn't even a follower in Jesus when I was justified by His blood! (The term "sinners" is used for unbelievers. The term "righteous" is used for believers.)
The article finishes off with a "wonderful" benefit for the reader.
"Would you be willing to benefit from this way of healing spiritual, emotional, and physical sicknesses? To do so requires faith in Jesus Christ. Why not come to the Physician yourself? You can do that by learning about Jesus Christ and his role in saving faithful mankind. Jehovah's Witnesses will be happy to help you."
They're happy to help you alright. They'll be happy to help you learn:
1. Jesus is just a "god" created by the Jehovah.
2. Jesus lived a perfect life to show us that we could life a perfect life.
3. Jesus died on a torture stake.
4. Jesus' blood given to the Father in heaven paid the ransom for the past sins of those who follow Him.
5. Jesus went into the tomb, and then His body was dissolved into gases by the Father, and was resurrected as a "spirit-creature."
6. Jehovah manufactured bodies as the need arose. Their "jehovah" apparently wanted to deceive people into erroneously thinking that Jesus had risen bodily from the grave.
7. Jesus does not have a body of flesh and bones as He states in Luke 24.
8. Jesus is the Great Teacher.
9. Jesus is the Great Physician.
10. Jesus is the Great Example.
11. Jesus was a Great Man.
12. Jesus was a Witness of Jehovah, and we should be too.
13. Jesus returned invisibly to earth in October 1914 and now is setting up His kingdom at 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, New York, 11201.
I believe the Bible. It says,
1. Jesus is not "a" god, Jesus IS God almighty in human flesh (Jn 1:1, 8:58, 10:30, others.)
2. Jesus did not live a perfect life to show me that I could live a perfect life. He lived a perfect life because I can't.
3. Jesus died on a cross, not a "torture stake." They weren't trying to torture Jesus, they were trying to kill Him.
4. Jesus' blood shed on the cross has made perfect forever those who believe in Him.
5. Jesus' body laid in the tomb from Friday to Sunday morning. His person (spirit) went to preach to the spirits in prison, He was not asleep or "dead" as JWs or SDAs reckon death. He resurrected to life, bodily, on the third day.
6. God does not deceive us by "manufacturing" bodies that "appear" physical, but are only temporary creations that will be discarded after each use.
7. Jesus has a body of flesh and bones as He said.
8. Jesus is not the Great Teacher who came to teach us a lesson. JESUS IS THE LESSON!
9. Jesus is not the Great Physician who came to cure us of mankind's troubles by showing us how to love each other. HE IS THE CURE FOR MANKINDS TROUBLES! HE IS THE MEDICINE!
10. Jesus is first and foremost our Savior, not our example. Only after we have received Jesus in our hearts can we have the Holy Spirit to show us day to day what we should and should not do. (For JWs, the "holy spirit" is just an energy from God.)
11. Jesus was NOT a Great Man. Enoch was a great man. Jesus is our Great God.
12. Jesus is a witness of Himself as we should be also. Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; AND YOU WILL BE MY WITNESSES..."
13. When Jesus returns, no creature living, dead or somewhere in between will be unaware of the fact that Time has ended and the Creator has returned to take home His bride.
Don't know if this is the kind of review you were looking for Carol.
(Strong language, re: Satanic and demon-filled people. I particularly mean the leadership. And I mean what I say!)
Let me know what you think also.
Steve |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:03 pm: | |
Steve, that was great! It is amazing how many Jehovah's Witness teachings parallel Adventism's.
I agree with you in your assessment of Satanic and demon-filled people. Like you, I mean particularly the leadership. But all who belong to a deceptive cult are to some degree living under a spiritual claim of Satan. That does not mean they are literally demon-possessed or that they even know they are living under such a claim.
But it is a spiritual claim that, when we accept Jesus, we must renounce and relinquish to him so His Spirit can fill the place where that spirit had been.
Praise God for freedom in Jesus!
Colleen |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
Brad,
Not sure exactly, I just shut down my Bible software, but here's what I found:
God initially promised, not commanded, the land in Exodus 3:17. Later, He commanded men to explore the land (Numbers 13.) They explored, ten of the twelve freaked, the people rebelled (Num. 14), and God cursed. Then they ended wandering around for 40 years while most of them died.
Initially, the "command" was a promise. Later the "promise" became a command, and the people failed. Finally, under Joshua, the people inherited the promise by following the command!
I'll have to check this out further when I have more time.
You also ask, what version of the Big 10 were the original. I don't believe either of them were the "original." Remember, Moses broke the tablets of stone. God had to write them again.
However, both versions say exactly the same thing. The differences in wording of the fourth commandment is explained as follows:
The creation of Adam and Eve provided mankind with an opportunity to share in Gods rest. The exodus from Egypt resulted in the creation of the nation of Israel, providing Gods chosen people with an opportunity to share in Gods rest.
(My paraphrase from The Book of Deuteronomy, by P. C. Craigie, NICOT.)
I believe that the ten commandments found in Deuteronomy may be exactly what Moses received. Craigie points out in his commentary that, "God had delivered or redeemed (Exod. 15:13) his people from a situation of slavery; then, at Horeb, he enacted with them the covenant. Thus the Exodus is the 'gospel' placed at the head of the law." (P. 151)
If the Exodus was the Gospel to the Israelites, (and we know it was their great deliverance from domination by the world to live under God,) then the statements about the exodus found in Deuteronomy 5 may be exactly what God wanted as the people looked back on their deliverance.
In terms of the timing of the promise vs. the command, I'll have to look it up. No one I know is settled on one version of the ten commandments being the "original" and the other not being "original." I think they both are original.
That could strain the gray matter a bit, but they're both in God's word and they both mean exactly the same.
Steve |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to review this information and then posting your excellant thoughts on it.
I might add I have the same thoughts and that is such an awesome thing to me. We know nothing of one another and have not been in the same circle of inlightedness and yet we can agree on the basics. Could it be we have the only teacher and the only book needed to do this?
What I saw here was you do not hear of Jesus Death, burial and resurrection.
You hear subtleties and to anyone who has not come full circle in what they believe it can sound good.
I felt like I was reading SDA literature. This is ironic to me since I made statement to my son-in-law early into his involvement with SDA that if it had been JW"s who told him the "Truth" then he would have been a JW. He said"I don't think so", but this makes it hard not to think that.
There was this message on SDA Markee in our town: All thing are possible to them who believe.
My question is believe in what:
The the world is round
That Christ did it so we can too
That the Sabbath must be kept to quarantee salvation
That Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins so that we could be presented faultless before God.
Thanks again Steve, It is so encouraging to discuss in a way that is logical, Carol |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 3:06 pm: | |
Steve, That is where I made a mistake God promised not commanded in Ex.3:17. Do you believe that it was God's will and timimg for the children of Israel to have recieved the Ten Commandments first before entering the land of promise. I reason I'm asking is someone I'm not sure who say in a book, because they did not enter "God's rest"the promised land when God promised it to them, He gave them the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments instead. I'm begining to think that that statement was wrong.
As far as the orginal Ten Commandments go, if it is from Deut.5 that would take the SDA's version of the seal of God out of Ex.20:11
Thanks for taking the time for the info. If you find anything else let us know. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 6:49 pm: | |
Steve, I will be photocopying what you wrote. It is excallant. Thank-you. My sister-in-law spent a great amount of time recently trying to convince my 17 year old son that Jesus was resurrected only as a spirit being and that He could manifest a human appearing body at will. It was totally cornball. I guess I am just too polite as we were in her house so I said nothing. Yet, when she is in my house she also says this babble. For the sake of good raport with the in-laws I zip my lip. But, it is too goofy. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 5:43 pm: | |
No, Brad, the Israelites were not given the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath instead of the Promised Land. They did still enter the Promised Land, and they had the law and the ceremonies when they entered. It was not a "substitute" or "consolation prize".
The Isrealites were given the Ten Commandments in order to lead them to an understanding of their hopeless sinfulness and their need of a Savior. They were given the law to define them as a nation separate from all other nations and to establish them as being led by the only true God.
The Sabbath always was about their resting in God's completed work. While the pagans around them worked furiously to gain favor with their gods, Israel literally rested one in seven and propered beyond anything the pagans could understand. Yet Israel could not take the credit for their prosperity; they worked only six days a week. Neither they or the neigboring nations could say Israel prospered because they worked harder.
God gave Israel the law and the Sabbath to establish himself as their leader and to foreshadow Jesus, the Redeemer who truly would make them righteous and enable them to cease from their own works!
The reason Hebrews says they did not enter their rest is that in spite of having the law and the Sabbath, they could not gain the victory over sin and become righteous. Even though they eventually entered the Prmoised Land, they did not find spiritual rest. That law just continued to condemn them!
It's only on this side of the cross that we can truly enter God's rest because at last Jesus has healed the breach in the universe that separated us from the Father. Israel as a whole refused to live by faith in God's promises, and they could not enter His rest.
Now we can, when we accept Jesus, because He has made a living way to the Father. No, the Promised Land was never the ultimate goal from an eternal perspective. It was a metaphor of the rest we have in Christ, and even more than that, it's a metaphor of some day living physically with Jesus in his literal kingdom!
But TODAY there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God! The literal seventh-day Sabbath was only a shadow of Jesus' completed work in people's lives. It was never intended to replace or symbolize the Promised Land.
Praise God for giving us Jesus!
Colleen |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 9:08 pm: | |
Colleen, Thanks for the posting This gives me some important info. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Thje website is: www.watchthetower.org |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
Garner Ted Armstrong, estranged son of the late Herbert W. Armstrong and current founder of the Church of God, International headquartered in Tyler, Texas died today from pmomionia. I grew up having to go hear him speek so often. My parents got all the Worldwide Church of God literature and then later on the Church of God International trash. It was on the national news. |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:11 pm: | |
Garner Ted was expelled from the Worldwide Church of God by his own father, Herbert W. Armstrong. He allegedly was a womanizer.
He had a good gift of speech like his father. Cultic doctrines need a flowery, elaborate presentation to appear authentic.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
Does the transformation that happen in the WWCG seem possible in the SDA church? Is there one person that might have the courage to step up and say we are teaching error? I read a book by a former wwcg minister talking about leaving the shadows for the glorious life in Christ. But the denomination paid a high price...many splinter groups that didn't want to believe Armstrong was wrong (I think they lost 2/3 of their membership and almost as much of their $$).
Wasn't Armstrong influenced originally by EGW? |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 6:36 am: | |
Yes, the Worldwide Church of God paid a heavy price for embracing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The hierarchical structure of the WCG is presently being revised. For example, the Worldwide Church of God, here in Lincoln, Nebraska, now meets on Sundays and is seriously considering a new name. They used to have 150 members in this local church, but now they are delighted when twenty people show up for services.
Several years ago, I suggested to the local WCG pastor that a name change would be to their advantage in overcoming their cult image. So, in an email several weeks ago, he mentioned that possibility for his local congregation. Their denomination is currently working on ways to give the local churches more autonomy. In the past, they never took up any offerings in the church--they were sent directly to headquarters by the members during the week.
Also, in the pre-1995 days, the WCG rented their worship facilities in most locations. Obviously, Herbert W. Armstrong needed ALL their money to live a lavish lifestyle. After he was through with enjoying the sent-in monies, there was no money left over for church building projects. Some WCG congregations, like in Phoenix, Arizona, continue to have BOTH Sunday and Saturday services to accommodate the changes in their belief system.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 1:58 pm: | |
Yes, the price they paid was heavy. I've often pondered whether or not the SDA church could do the same thing. I have serious doubts.
It would require that someone at the top take a stand for truth. The complication I see, however, is that the SDA church has so many financial entanglements that I think it would be nearly impossible for the leaders to separate. Not that they couldn't, but I suspect that it would be easier for them to leave the church than to try to reform the one they have.
After covering the Robert Folkenberg story before he lost his position, I learned enough to strongly suspect that the church--not just individuals within the church--have made any number of quiet agreements to receive profits from any number of compromised business deals. By the time you have SDA employees sharing business deals with Vatican representatives and splitting profits, you have major entanglements.
When I learned that as far back as Robert Pierson (maybe farther--that's just the name I learned) there had been acknolwedgment from the top that the church was covertly engaged in sharing profits with a man who also represented the Vatican, I realized that most likely a person cannot even become the GC president unless he knows and to some extent endorses some of the business connections which the people in the pews would be scandlized to know.
So, all this is to say I think it would be extreemely difficult for the SDA church to reform. I think it would be much more possible, if any SDA leaders did become convicted of the need to embrace truth, to leave and even start over than it would be to clean up what exists. The spirit of deception permeates every level of the church and its activities.
I'm not saying God could not bring about such a miracle; I'm only saying that from my perspective, I think it would be much harder for the SDAs to reform than it was even for the WWCG.
I am grateful, though, that God is sovereign, and he will persist in drawing honest hearts to him.
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 9:34 pm: | |
The local sda church rents its social hall out on Saturday afternoons between 2 p.m. and 5 p.m. to a group of leftover Herbert W. Armstrong devotees. So, the church over here is very dilligent about getting the sermon over on time so the potluck can be cleared up in time for the other group tgo use thev area. At age 26 or so I regurally attended WCG meetings. Them after a long while I asked the local pastor of the Fresno congreation if I could join the WCG. We sat at a table and talked and he told me it was his understanding that I was planning to go through the nursing program at a local college. I told him that was correct, that was my plan. Then he told me I could not be a nurse and a member of the WCG because only God had the authority to heal the sick and if I wanted to be in the WCG I mutfind another line of work to go into. I never set foot in another WCG meeting, ever. HWA's wonderful first wife was left to die from a condition that with a simple surgery could have saved her life as well as given back to her a good quality healthy life. She died from a hernia. They would not seek medical care at all. If a former WCG member was at a store and a current member saw the person they were to treet the former as though he/she did not any longer exist. Total shunning. Some folks I had went to h.s. with were WCG. The husband never became a member but always attended with the wife who was raised WCG. Then their house burned and a local Baptist church which neither one had ever attended took up a special offering for them and someone from the Baptist church came and gave them a check and told them God had placed a burdon on the hearts of the congreation to help out them as they were in the same community. My friend told me it just blew her away that those preople who she believed were led by satan could do something so wonderful to a family they had never met before. She, her husband and children then left the WCG and became "normal" Christian. To me that truly was an act instituted by The Holy Spirit. |
Madelia (Madelia)
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
I just realized when I saw the title of this thread: the name of the conference president in my state is Bill Miller; wonder if his parents did that intentionally. |
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