| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hmmm, I have the Apocrypha here in my home. It consists of 15 books (at least the one I have does). The Mormons and Ellen White both used the Apocrypha. EGW referred to it as the "hidden book." And if I had a whole lot of energy into finding her statements, twice that I recall, I'd post them and what books they were in that she supposedly gained a vision into these writings. The Mormons use 1 and 2nd Maccabbees along with Esther. Also in the Apocrypha was a book named Esdras which is Ezra in our Bible. 1 letter from Jeremiah in there and more. It is useful for some history when I read this book. Pretty accurate some of the time too. Yes, infact EGW and those of her day most all had Bibles that included the Apocrypha. That's why the Bibles were so big. It was located between the minor prophets and the NT. Peace. Denise Gilmore | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Pheeki, For the sake of historical accuracy, Ellen White's will made no provision for her debts. The SDA Church had to finance the red ink of her bankrupt estate. Interestingly, the church did not have the money needed, so they had to borrow the money and make payments until 1933. Also, the generous provisions in her will, for her posterity, were DELETED due to lack of assets. However, a one-time settlement was made with the two surviving sons of Ellen White. I understand, with the rate of exchange now, each son received a so-called "modest settlement" the equivalent of about $500,000.00 in current monies. The church in effect bought out the two sons with the stipulation that no future royalty income would belong to any family member. What a financial mess she left for the struggling SDA Church. She truly lived the life of the rich and the famous. How many people do you know that have a full-time nurse for 33 years, and also a full-time seamtress, gardener, bookmakers, cook, et cetera? Wow! In contrast, during this same time, my hard-working ancestors lived in sod houses on the North Dakota prairie with inadequate food for their families. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Dennis, I am shocked. A quote by Ellen comes to mind because it struck me at the time as very condemning. The comment was (paraphrased from ancient memory) that mothers should not waste time by doing embroidery or putting fancy needlework on their childrens clothes but should be focusing on more practical things (seems like she said something like fitting them to do the Lord's work or something). This bothered me because my favorite hobby was sewing, I loved to smock and embroider things for my girls and spent my free time doing this. They loved it too because they knew that I cared about them to go to such trouble to make things pretty for them. After I read it, I felt like I was sinning and would be held accountable for this. Now I find out she had her own seamstress who could spend her time sewing- probably for Ellen's children. I feel really down today. I felt like my mother was making such progress in Bible study. I had been pulling studies off the web about Christ being the end of the Law, etc. She was starting to quote me texts that she never understood as an SDA, she agreed with some things I found out about the SDA and she knows they are in error...yet she tells me today "What if you are wrong, what if the SDA's are right? I don't know what to believe and more. You tell me one thing my SDA preacher son tells me another..." So, I almost feel we are back at square one. Maybe I should back off and let the Holy Spirit work. Perhaps I am pushing it too hard? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, it sounds as if your mother is under conviction. Her doubts are similar to those I had at the beginning of my "waking up". Pray for her; encourage her to be in the word. Encourage her to pray and to concentrate on reading the Bible. Reassure her that the Holy Spirit will make the truth clear to her as long as she is seeking it and asking God to reveal it. Those were such interesting facts, Dennis. In Canright's book about the life of EG White he also pointed out that in 1914(?)óshortly before her death, at any rate, her yearly royalties for her books equalled $100,000. Consider the exchange rate for that time, and consider that those royalties were for one year! She also had a home in Australia and a home at Elmshaven in California. Pheeki, your children are so blessed to have had you embroidering and smocking their clothes! God gives us our talents on purpose; they make us who we are. He KNOWS when he gives them that they will bring us satisfaction! I think the Giver of our good gifts is the One whose "permission" we need to use them, not a self-appointed profit! (Did I say PROFIT?!) Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, be gentle with your mother as I also believe she is searching and it may take a while. If I would have a speck of light from my son-in-law that he was anyway doubting SDA this form and the whole world would not be able to contain me. It would be like the day my daughter was born 35 years ago and after a long labor the doctor said it was a girl I screamed and broke the wrist straps I had on because I was somewhat out of control. As I just shared with someone Sunday, who had written me a courage note, it has been like a long labor but oh the results are so wonderful and all the pain is forgotten and I am waiting for that day. I had one boy and loved him dearly but a girl was something I had only hoped for in my dreams, one of the few things I have ever really gotten that I wanted. That's not to say that I am complaining about my plot in life but I have a brother, whom I love dearly and believe him to be the perfect christian, who has built 4 new houses in his lifetime and I am totally happy for him while I sit in my house that is by the standard of the one I grew up in a mansion. It is an old house but we have remolded it and I really do appreciate it. Sorry to go on but I just wanted you to know that it may be a long wait but cling ever so hard to that one glimmer of hope if she is making any progress in listening to something other than EGW. Have to go to work now talk to you later. Carol | ||
| Rkymtnhi (Rkymtnhi) |
I was talking to a conservative SDA and he said,EGW said in Great C that the SDA church would go out of existence in the end times. Did she really say that? If she did, could that be classed as a major cover up? | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
The following is and excerpt from a letter on the truthorfables.com website. Something struck me while reading it. I will tell you after you have read it. My daughter is here with me, (she is absolutely scared to death to challenge any of Mrs. White's writings, d/t thirty-four years of reading and venerating EGW). When I asked her last week if she was ready to *check her out* she said she was. That was HUGE! I wondered if she really could break free from the mind control that has had her spellbound these many years preventing her from evaluate her writings against The Word of God. Well, yesterday when I got out the printed material from your Website (which is so well laid-out and so honestly courageous!) that demonic familiar spirit of Mrs. White was here to rear its ugly head and demand, "FIRST you must show me where in her writings she ever said ...(this was out of character for my soft- spoken usually politely cooperative daughter) She knows there are no EGW Books in my home except for G.C. and that I do not have access to any of EGW's books these days and consequently would not be able to take her to the page and paragraph to see with her own eyes. SO...end of discussion for now. I would be gagged and unable to proceed any further to put EGW to the test. I tried to just read to her the Deuteronomy portions regarding the test of a prophet immediately she became very angry at my reading of this Word and said if I kept on she would have to go outside, that she was not going to listen to anything unless I could beforehand show her in a book where it is written. She hurried out into the cold without a coat in almost a state of panic and with no place to go except into her car where she sat for nearly 7 hrs. rather than hear the Word of God in a warm house with food and drinks. PLEASE, surely someone is familiar with this threat that prevents the cult members from putting her to the test and can tell me where to find it and if possible scan the page and forward it to me. That would be absolutely wonderful. I anxiously and prayerfully awaiting your reply. Thank you for your time. What struck me when reading this was...what she attributed the anger to that the SDA feel when EGW is opposed. She called it "that demonic familiar spirit of Mrs. white." Interesting. What is it that causes people to flee when confronted with scripture. What is it that makes them so angry? Aren't we all christians? Can't we all talk about Jesus in a loving way regardless of denomination? What kind of spirit is driving Adventism? I feel a deep oppression when my husband is so angry with me, it feels like his soul is so dark when he defends Ellen. What is this hold, where does it come from? That letter kind of scared me. Could be my SDA backgroud...we sat through hours of Bible class at _______ Academy listening to backmasking (Beatles, Led Zeppelin) and scared to death. Remember when that was popular to get kids to stop listening to rock? well it worked, I broke all of my Queen, ELO, AC/DC albums! the eagles were the worst having a picture of Anton LeVey in the hotel California album jacket (if you looked close enough magnified 100x in the correct lighting...) anyway, my parents spent good money on that bible class and I used to leave there shivvering I was so scared! Not a feeling of peace and freedom but of oppression and fear was given to me there! So, perhaps this demonic influence is keeping people from recieving the truth or is this idea stemming from my brainwashing in adolescence? still seems strange! Any thoughts? | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Gee Pheeki, I so agree (I love your name by the way.) You know, when I have the occasional doubts or fears because of my "baggage" (I'm just over a year out of the church) all I have to do is read the above to reassure me. Am at work (shame on me) and don't have the exact quote or verse, but I remind myself of God's Word which tells us His Spirit is not one of fear (or confusion.) It is impossible, in my mind, for this God I know, love, and worship, to be a source of fear. And you're right, when I was in Adventism, and most of the SDAs I know, become so angry and intense if you question EGW or the church. Why is it not possible for these "Christians" to calmly and lovingly discuss these things? Doesn't make sense. Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Hey, I'm discussing the flood with my cousin and giants and anyways, I'm re-reading the story and I don't see that Noah preached to anyone or that anyone else had a chance to be saved. Is this right? | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, I am so sorry you have to go thru this, because I know from my experience with my daughter's husband just exactely what you are feeling. She has felt like she has been robbed of a marriage that she worked hard at keeping most of the time thru doing just what her husband wanted, such as waiting 6 years to have a child when in fact she would have had one 9 months after they were married, stayed with him while he did not work for a year waiting for a pipe dream job to materialize and in the end finding out the person who was heading up this company was in fact doing it illegally. She did not go to church on a regular basis because that was not something he had grown up doing so rather than make waves she just went along with it. I remember particularaly one Christmas Eve I asked her if they wanted to come to Chrsitmas eve service of which she had gone every CE until she married and she asked him and said No he doesn't want to come, remember this is all before he was hooked into SDA. Then after he was hooked and she wanted now to go to her own church he used that aganist her saying she never wanted to go before and possibly that was said because he believes I am the reason she would not go to SDA any more after she had gone a few times and then decided as I have shared before that God showed her that we are not under the law but under grace by scripture she was lead to in Galatians. She has begged him to just look at what the Bible says on issues and leave the EGW stuff alone but he has a right to do what he wants to do. I say anyone who thinks they have the right to step out of the oneness of their marriage and decide without ever talking with their mate about something that will change their lives totally, then that is not very Christ like according to Pauls teachings on marriage. You are in my prayers.Carol | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, My favorite part of Noah's life is recorded in Genesis 6:8 as follows: "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord." (NASB) In 1 Peter 3:20, we find that the spirits in prison, that Jesus' spirit preached to, "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept WAITING in the days of Noah, DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ARK, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water." (emphasis mine) The above passage does not specifically state that Noah actually preached while building the ark. However, it does say that God kept patiently waiting DURING the construction phase of the ark. Exactly how God communicated with the antediluvian world we do not know. One can conjecture that the building phase may have included audible warnings from Noah. After all, the building program, including its mission and purpose, was not a secret between Noah and God. All in all, it is most likely that Noah had many interactions with his unbelieving friends and neighbors. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I don't know Dennis, I checked the original Hebrew for "perfect" where Noah was found perfect and it is a meaning of without defect, without blemish, perfect. I think that it means that he and his family were the only ones left on the earth that weren't corrupted by the giants, which I believe to be the fallen angels. I have done a lot of research and study into this and the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 is the same "sons of God that is in Job. I know this is a very debatable subject and I'm not trying to debate. I remember being specifically taught that Noah preached to the people and they made fun of him and wouldn't listen and when the rains came they banged on the doors and pleaded to get in. NONE of that is in the Bible and that makes me a little suspicious as to why the "inspired" prophet wrote those things. I think it was specifically to keep us in the dark about the giants so we would be in the dark in the end times-well that's another subject. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The passage in Genesis 6:8 says not only that Noah found favor ("grace" in the KJV) in the eyes of the Lord, but verse 9 also states that he was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. Whether or not Noah's "perfection" had anything to do with being untainted by Nephilim is nearly irrelevant. The meaning of this passage is that he honored God, unlike his neighbors. That honoring of God would have included staying untainted by the Nephilim if that were an option for him. You're right, Sabra, that there is mystery and something non-human suggested about the Nephilim. In fact, my personal theory is that the Greek myths about the old heroes (Atlas, Hercules, etc.) may well have evolved out of the Nephilim interacting with humans. (The Greek hereos were reputed to be half god, half human.) But all of this is pure speculation. We do not have facts to prove it, and we have no scientific evidence that such breeding is even possible. (We can't even cross-breed different species! The best we can come up with is a mule!) The one thing we do know is that most myths have roots in something that happened, even if the reality is lost in antiquity. But back to Noah. I'm going to resort to a rule for interpreting literature that I've just been teaching my students (they're just beginning to write literature analysis). You cannot make conclusions that the text does not support. While the Genesis account does bring up the Nephilim and the suggestion that whatever they were, their presence led to widespread wickedness, we can't logically conclude that the passage stating Noah was perfect and righteous means he and his family were the only one genetically untainted by the Nephilim. That MIGHT be true, but that passage (v. 8-9) can really only be interpreted exactly as it reads: Noah found favor in the eyes of the LordÖand he walked with God. You're right about Mrs. White taking liberties with the story, however. I'm not sure, though, that her fabrication was to cover up the giants. I'm not convinced Mrs. White really knew about the giants! I have a growing suspicion that she didn't really study the Bible or know what it really said. After all, she also said that Eve wandered away from Adam before she ate the forbidden fruit, and the Bible says Adam was with her. But that theory did not originate with EGW. She copied that from other religious writers who had it wrong before her. The giants undoubtedly were real. What exactly they were (fallen angels?) is not known. I think we can't conclude too much about them; we have to sort-of hold that whole concept loosely. They were real; they were related to great wickedness; the Bible follows their mention with the story of the cleansing flood. Whatever the truth about them, though, God has chosen to leave it veiled. Apparently the details are not important for us to know at this time...although it's really an interesting subject!! I really have a LOT of questions I'll want answered when I'm no longer confined by time! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I'm not suggesting that EGW knew anything about the giants, but that she was inspired by satan and he knew. "As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man" think about that one a while. The first, and oldest, belief is that "the sons of God" were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim. This view was widely held in the world of the first century, and was supported by Flavius Josephus and Philo and many others. It is indeed interesting! I heard a news report of some lab in Europe growing "cloned" pieces and parts and they can't keep them contained because they outgrow their containers! I dunno...... | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-28.html Check this out. the beginning of the page is talking about Mormonism and Nephilim but then it goes on to talk about a dream a former Mormon had about how only a remnant of Mormon would accept the New Covenant, etc. Quite interesting from another religions perspective. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Hey am I right I thought Pope Ellen said we were giants? | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I remember having a book as a child that showed how man has detiorated, it showed Adam as a giant. She did say that I can't say where though. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Yes, when I was a kid we were taught in SDA school that the first people were giants but because of sin people have become small. I also remember as a kid asking my parents about that and they told me EGW just made that up and to forget it. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Denise, I saw your post about the Apocrypha book and thought that I would mention to you what the word actually means. The word apocrypha means--probably not true! How's that for an eye opener? As a child, I remember a door-to-door salesman selling a big family Bible to my mom and would sit for hours just looking at the beautiful pictures, back before I could read. Anyway, a short time later I noted that my grandmother had a Bible identical to ours, or so I thought. Her Bible was actually the Catholic version, not that grandmother was a Catholic, maybe my aunt that lived with her for a while purchased it since she was an Episcopalian-can't spell it--anyway they are a branch off of Catholicism, so maybe she got it. This book had the Apocrypha in the middle of the book and as I learned to read and went back to that Bible, I found that our Bible didn't have these books. It made me wonder but I didn't think much of it until I was much older and heard my daddy talk about people taking from and adding to scripture. I began to wonder why anyone would take out part of the Bible. Years later, I heard a preacher speak on the subject of adding or taking away and asked why it was that we were guilty of taking those books out. Here is the simple answer to a lifelong puzzle. The Apocrypha were taken out of our KJV Bible because the Catholic church had added them in the first place. It isn't a sin then to remove something that didn't belong in the first place. I also discovered that there are other books out there that Catholics have written that endeavor to clear up misconceptions about the Virgin Mary and these books give the go ahead to the Catholics to lift up Mary and worship and pray to her and asking her to petition Jesus for favors. One of those books was called "The Forgotten Books of Eve" and the other was something like "Lost Books of The Bible". I got those books to study them to compare them to scripture and you wouldn't believe the nonsense. I found in one chapter of those books where the virgin Mary was a very young girl of about 14 years of age but Joseph was actually a widower of 35 or so and had several children that needed a mother. Joseph supposedly took Mary as a wife to raise his already born children and never KNEW her, folks, this is heresy of sorts because the Bible says that he knew her not UNTIL not he NEVER KNEW her. For some reason, the Catholics feel the need to keep Mary a pure virgin throughout her entire life. The Catholics are a prime target for the SDAs because they have been led to believe that they can't know the scripture and must depend on the pope to forgive them. My daddy was a worldly man but had read the Bible and the one thing that he insisted on was that I call him daddy and never FATHER. The Bible says that thou shalt call no man Father and daddy took that verse very literally. He told us kids that should anyone ask who our father was that we should answer them by saying my daddy's name is Thomas. I guess it was kind of extreme but with that knowledge, it helped me see of the lies found in Catholicism as well. I also purchased a Mormon bible, PLLLEEEASE don't do that folks. Their bible states that Adam freely ate of the tree of life so that all men might know joy!!! How is that for a lie? Mormon men are also taught that if they place a veil over their dead wife's face while she is in her coffin, he will keep her from seeing heaven, another ridiculous belief from another ridiculous cult. Jehovah's Witnesses are a whole other story that I will have to get to later. Just in case you want to study to better prepare to witness to any of these groups there are web sites out there to check out too, you can get on a search engine for many of them. I can't wait to sit down again and chat with you all, but it is almost 11:00, and I need to get in bed. God bless you, Janice | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
I believe that the word apocrypha means "hidden", not "probably untrue". I copied this from another site. Please don't hold me responsible for the big words: Etymologically, the derivation of Apocrypha is very simple, being from the Greek apokryphos, hidden, and corresponding to the neuter plural of the adjective. The use of the singular, "Apocryphon", is both legitimate and convenient, when referring to a single work. When we would attempt to seize the literary sense attaching to the word, the task is not so easy. It has been employed in various ways by early patristic writers, who have sometimes entirely lost sight of the etymology. Thus it has the connotation "uncanonical" with some of them. St. Jerome evidently applied the term to all quasi-scriptural books which in his estimation lay outside the canon of the Bible, and the Protestant Reformers, following Jerome's catalogue of Old Testament Scriptures, applied the title Apocrypha to the excess of the Catholic canon of the Old Testament over that of the Jews. Naturally, Catholics refuse to admit such a denomination, and we employ "deuterocanonical" to designate this literature, which non-Catholics conventionally and improperly know as the "Apocrypha". My words again: It appears to me that there were a host of writings competing for inclusion in the official Bible, and some were weeded out as not being truly inspired. A couple of popes in the fifth century strongly condemned such writings. I don't remember where I heard it, but I recall a story about when the Bible was being officially compiled, the monarch who was bankrolling the endeavor ran out of money and/or patience with the project. A deadline was given, and those books that were agreed upon were included as official, and those yet under debate were included as the Apocrypha. The entire story is, if you'll pardon the expression, apocryphal. |
