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Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ever wonder why Adventists do not generally disclose, discuss, or pray about Christian martyrdom and persecution in many lands today? Is it because these Christians are not dying for the Sabbath? Why don't they want their members to realize that thousands of devout Christians are dying for Jesus every year? Why do they routinely omit these facts in their sermons and publications?

Recently, for example, I read excerpts in the Adventist Review Online about their ongoing work in China. They were stating the widespread success of their work in many small groups, even mentioning a Chinese Communist leader coming to their special events to give them praise, etc. On the other hand, I read the Voice of the Martyrs magazine that details gruesome persecution of God's people worldwide today--especially in China.

Historically, the official SDA Church has been in close touch with persecuting governments and their leaders. Remember how Adventists used to praise Adolf Hitler for his personal vegetarianism? Also, to avoid persecution in Nazi Germany, Adventists quickly renamed their Sabbath Schools to "Church Schools" to avoid sounding like Jews. In the former Soviet Union, Adventism was split into two separate groups. Many in the unofficial group (underground Adventists) suffered in the gulags (prisons)and harsh Siberian labor camps for their uncompromising distinctives. The official SDA group attended school on Saturdays, served on-duty in the Soviet military on Saturdays, etc.

I would be interested in your thoughts about some of these topics.

Dennis J. Fischer
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Dennis, this to me is a very interesting topic. Several years ago I was in Southern California for a weekend and I attended a Seventh-day Baptist Church on Saturday morning. They had a guest speaker that day who was speeking about the terrible pursacution of Chritians in some lands, especially Red China. Most of the martyered in China have been of the Catholic faith. The 7th-day Baptist church then took a special offering to give to this non-denominational group with the work it is doing in countries where the Christians are so very oppressed. Then, just about a year ago I ended up in the local SDA church on Saturday morning and the topic got on to how the true Christians would be persucated in the last days. Being a bit bold and at the same time wanting to let those SDA's know the truth in this, I told them of he talk I heard at the SDB church a year before about the terrible conditions the Christian have in China and I requested before the SS be dismissed we have prayer for the persucated Christians in China. He did pray for the persucated Chinese Christians. However, only Our Father in Heaven knows if the word "Christins" in his prayer ment Christians or if it ment Seventh-day Adventists only. One elderly lady stopped me afterwards to tell me she was totally unaware that non-Sabbath-keeping Christians were persucated. And she asked me if I was sure I got my information acurate. I told her to read some of the Chrisian magazines that can be purchased at any Christian bookstore and she would find out for herself.
Rkymtnhi (Rkymtnhi)
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am new to the forum,so this may have been mentioned earlier. It is interesting to me that Saul, before he became Paul, was persecuting Christians because they were NOT keeping the law. Christians were proclaiming Jesus only, and that brought persecution to them. SDA's teach they will be persecuted FOR keeping the law. True Christians will teach Jesus only and history will likely repeat.
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 1:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Rkymtnhi,

You will enjoy this site and I'm glad you are here!

That's a very interesting thing you brought there about Saul/Paul. Good point I might add.

As to whether or not this will repeat itself..hmmm, I'll let others answer this one.

But one thing is certain. We (this includes you :)) have a great future to look forward to and in the meantime we have an Amazingly Loving God that gives us His Peace and Assurance, no matter what.

In Christ,

your sister, Denise
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 1:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Your post, hits the nail on the head, I believe. It all stems around the Sabbath. What a sad commentary huh?

I'm sure that there are some SDAs that don't make this their number one issue, as I know a few. But, all in all, this is the core issue.

Thank God for His Son Jesus the Christ, our Sabbath Rest!

Resting in HIM,

Denise
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, Dennis.

Donít forget that when EGW was in Australia, she caved in to the Sunday laws of the time.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Nine, page 238, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Religious Liberty Work

"At one time, those in charge of our school at Avondale [Australia] inquired of me, saying, 'What shall we do? The officers of the law have been commissioned to arrest those working on Sunday.' I replied, 'It will be very easy to avoid that difficulty. Give Sunday to the Lord as a day for doing missionary work. Take the students out to hold meetings in different places, and to do medical missionary work. They will find the people at home, and will have a splendid opportunity to present the truth. This way of spending Sunday is always acceptable to the Lord'"

Can you say ědouble standard,î kids? ;)
Rkymtnhi (Rkymtnhi)
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are absolutely right, Denise. Jesus is my complete rest, and for me that includes resting in Him regardless of how the end times "pan" out. It is such a relief to not worry about the persecution the SDA's teach anymore. In addition to Saul persecuting Christians for NOT keeping the law, Jesus was crucified for NOT keeping the law. So the last sentence of my previous post could have been said better. IF history should repeat itself...and this is just a thought, it seems doubtful that persecution would be as a result of keeping the law. And as long as SDA's are wishy-washy (example:Austrailia) and teach Jesus plus the law, with emphasis on "the law" they will have less persecution than those who take a stand for Jesus only.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Law" to SDA's generally means a lot of rules about what one can & cannot do between sunsets on Fri. and Sat. evenings. To an almost equal extent it includes not eating certain meats, particularly pork. I remember 2 yrs. ago when Gore & Leiberman were running for president & vice-president, a lot of SDA's got really jazzed about the possibility of having a "Sabbath-keeper" as v.p. It irritated me that they would rather have a non-Christian in the White House that was a Sabbath-keeper than a devoted Christian who believes in Christian principles but whose main worship day is Sunday. This entire notion of a universal Sunday law is nonsense. Do the SDA's really think with as many Jewish leaders in our country who hold high positions in business as well as politics that they would promote a national, let alone universal, Sunday-law? Get Real!
Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7)
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In all honestly, you have to look at the Sunday Law... ahem, "doctrine"... you have to call it exaclty what it is, a scare tactic. It's just yet another one of their many many many cultic doctrines. Yes, it is nonsense to think that a Sunday Law would be passed, and at the same time it doesnt surprise me about the whole Lieberman thing in 2000.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, we have pondered exactly the same questions. I will never forget our first Missions Sunday at Trinity Church. We were a bit hesitantóremembering, of course, the (dare I say) BORING mission talks we had heard forever.

We were overwhelmed when we walked into church to find the room completely surrounded by flags representing scores of countries with Christian missionaries. The sermon was moving and was entirely about the gospel and God's call to us to participate in it. There were NO self-serving mission stories or fictionalized adventures.

Perhaps, however, the most moving part to us was that we were given a sheet of paper listing the major countries where persecution of Christians was occurring. It gave statistics including avereage numbers killed per year, numbers of Christians compared to the rest of the population, the particular conditions and hardships Christians faced in each country, etc. The flyer also designated days during which we were invited to pray for God's people in the specific countries.

I put that flyer on the fridge and prayed through the following week. It was overwhelming to realize that God's people ARE suffering now instead of waiting for an eventual persecution.

I am convinced that in a strangely perverse way, some of Ellen's prophecies hinted at the truth; they just twisted the truth to make us believe that the opposite of what was real would happen. I guess that shouldn't be surprising, though, since a power opposed to God was using her.

I have begun to pray for God's people throughout the world. What a privilege to be one in Christ with his whole body!

Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for your comments. Many people are annoyed when the uninvited cult visitors of the Mormon and JW religions show up at their doorstep. To their credit, both groups fully indentify themselves--even with name tags on in the case of Mormon missionaries. Personally speaking, they do not really annoy me very much; however, when Seventh-day Adventists show up on doorsteps they frequently arrive with deceptive armor.


For example, the SDA literature evangelists (colporteurs) tell people that they are from the Home Health Education Service. When directly asked what church they attend, the LE will usually respond by saying, "I never tell people what church I attend, because that may limit the amount of good that I can do. I am sure your understand." People sign large credit contracts, in the hundreds of dollars, to make monthly payments. Many of their customers are poor, high-risk credit customers that are supposed to mail the payments to the regional Home Health Education Service (usually, in the past, the Union Conference headquarters). Under reorganization in some areas, the SDA publisher now directly carries these accounts under a deceptive name.

In California, several decades ago, the SDA publishing leaders experimented with colporteurs accepting a bank card for SDA book sales. Some felt that this was the ultimate answer or solution to delinquent accounts, bad checks, stopped payments, repossessions, and resales. With a high percentage of customers complaining to the credit card company for being defrauded and deceived, the bank card company withdrew the HHES privileges for offering credit. The bank card company simply stated that they did not want to do business with a company that had that many customer complaints.

Sadly and regrettably, as a former publishing leader, I was a zealous advocate for this type of public deception. I even heard of one instance when a county sheriff was sent to repossess SDA subscription literature. Remember seeing all those Bible Story book samples in your doctor's office with lead cards inside? These medical centers are not aware that they are a vital part of the SDA evangelistic team. It is high time to expose their deceptions. And they all said AMEN!

Dennis J. Fischer
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen!!

Colleen
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with you Dennis. Whenever I go to see a doctor, I take a minute to inform him of the true origin of the free book and ads in his waiting room. A Christian doctor really appreciates being told that they have been deceived.

Those cards really really irritate me!
Bmorgan (Bmorgan)
Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen!
Dennis, I worked as a student colporteur for three summers while I was in college. Although I was successful enough to obtain scholarships, I cringe as I now recall those days. Even then I felt a great uneasiness about the whole deal. Now, even good memories are tainted and I feel angry and ashamed, for like you, Dennis, I am well acquainted with the many deceptive practicesof HHES.

I praise God for His redeeming, cleansing power.
Bmorgan
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that I don't get out as often as others. So am a bit lost as to what those cards are that you all are speaking of.

Someone enlighten me please for I too, have a doctor who is a Christian. She has many Christian books and magazines in the office. Could these things be in regular magazines of any Christian group?

Thanks in advance,

Denise
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahh, you've seen them Denise. The book we are talking about is the free first volume of the "Bible Story" series that the SDA's print for kids. Of course, it isn't really taken from the Bible, but EGW's writings. It has a blue hardcover. The cards are really pamphlets I guess, they are advertisements that try to get the parents to buy the books. On nothing anywhere will you see something to indicate that it is the SDA denomination that produces them.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is HHES and Dennis, on you post from Sunday the 15th I don't have the faintest clue what you are referring to. Please explain. By the way, is the word, "coulporters" a made up adventist word or is it a real word that is in the dictionary? If it is a real word does it mean, "door to door religious book seller"?
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 4:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,

Believe it or not, I haven't seen them. At least not to my memory. Course, my memory leaves something left to be desired. A hard cover book that is blue? I'm really not knowing what that could be. I have a hard back book that is blue but it's a 12 step book for alcoholics...hehe. True though.

Now I'll be on the lookout for a blue hard cover book in my docs office or the library here in this apartment building that I live in. We have a library here and I sabotage it by taking out all the JWs, SDA and other cult books and replacing them with Dale Ratzlaff's books (which I'm now out of :( ) and I used to have other material that opposed the SDA especially but there again, I'm out and in need of fresh supply. Seems these books disappear from our library here quite fast! So someone is reading them.

We have alot of SDAs in this building and I had no clue as to how many until this past year. It's astonishing how many SDAs live in this building and put their books in the library. I'm on the constant lookout! You know, the official censoror of our library...hahhhh ahhhhhhh hhaahhhhhhh..<~~~~that was supposed to be an evil kind of laugh..don't quite know how to type that sort of thing out. Hmmmm, I'll work on it. :)

Still not sure though if these cards that you all are speaking of are or could be in other books. Can they?

Thanks Lydell for some description and please let me know if these cards can be in other material. This keeps me busy and gives me purpose. True story. It's fun actually.

Blessings to all,

Denise the library censor lady
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 6:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re: Those blue books with the cards: Do you emember Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories? Just like in your 12 step recovery program, there are 12 volumes in this set of books. They are made for adults to read to kids. They have a promotional one just made for advertisement that their literature agents go to just about all the doctor, dentist, chirpractor, midwifes offics, etc. and they plae this come-on issue in the waiting rooms, especially in pedriticians offices. Inside the front cover of this book is a glued on pocket with prepaid postcards to mail in or a free home trial of these books. Then after the person gets their free home trial they are expected tp send the money to pay for them. I honestly don't have a clue to how much those books are now but they used to be around $20.oo per book! My mom bought an entire set in perfect condition at the swapmeet for ony $2.oo per book. About 12 step programs: my son went to his first AA meeting last night. I asked him after I picked him up what he thought. He said after seeing all those loosers who turned into drunks he's decided after he gets off probation to give up alcohol and be a pothead! Gasp! Motherhood!
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 7:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, along with their sometimes being tear out cards in the free book, there is usually a little cardboard stand somewhere on a table in the room that holds little pamphlets advertising the books.

Gee Susan, that must have been really disheartening. Does he have a sponsor yet? Maybe the sponsor can cut thru the wiseguy comments. Praying he will stick with the program. Over the past 5 years we have had at least a half dozen folks in our church get clean and sober going thru AA. It's always interesting to me to watch. Those who go to church and AA usually are successful. Those who go to church for awhile, and then drop that and just continue to attend AA usually fail and end up back in the booze and drugs.

It's a joy watching one young woman in particular right now. She had been doing the AA program and coming to church regularly. She just always looked jittery, oppressed, and so sad, like she was ready to run and hide. She first dropped church attendance, then the AA meetings, and eventually ended up in jail. She is now back and appears to be solid. She was baptized a handful of months ago. And when you see her now, there is a look of real peace about her. It's precious. She's working and it looks like she will be getting her kids back in the next month or two.

Just telling you all that as encouragement Susan. The battle your son faces is an absolutely huge one. But God CAN HEAL these folks and turn them around.

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