| Author | Message | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
I believe that Babylon spoken of in the book of Revelations is referring to a spiritual state that we as Godís people can go into if after a reasonable amount of time of growing in the Lord we do not overcome. The things to overcome mentioned in Rev. 2 & 3 to the seven churches are to be applied to us if we can hear what the Spirit is saying. Just like the nation of Israel went into Babylon because they did not overcome we to can go into a spiritual Babylon. Thatís why God said in Rev.? come out of her my people. Some churches are warned that if they do not repent that they may have their lampstand removed "lampstand means church" or name blotted out. This would appear the go against the idea that once saved always saved. Some think that Babylon refers to the old pagan religion or city in the mideast but the mass majority of God's people are nowhere near Iraq where natural Babylon is although a mixture of the pagan customs have been observed amongst Christians today. Does anyone have an views on this? | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Brad, I would have to ask you what you would believe Hebrews 6:4-6 says.? For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,and have tasted the good work of God,and the powers of the world to come,if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,and put him to an open shame. According to this verse it can only be one way. Carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Brad, I believe that Revelation is clear in those passages. The churches mentioned are not ready for the rapture except for the Philadelphian church. The others will have to go through the tribulation if they don't get their act together. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bible passages have literal meanings that the initial readers understood. Beyond that, they have theological meanings that can be confirmed by inductive Bible study. Beyond that, they have meanings for me. There were those seven literal churches when John wrote Revelation, and the people in those churches would have understood John to be speaking directly to and about them. His warnings, I believe, also make general statements about a Christian's obligation to stay loyal and faithful and trusting in God. It's probably fair to say that there are people today who fit the descriptions of those in the seven churches. Without having done a deep study into it, I believe Babylon is a spiritual power, but I suspect there may also be some literal political power that can be identified as Babylon and will be administering policies that are hostile to truth. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that there are flaws I'm to overcome after a reasonable amount of time to grow. Paul says God is faithful to complete the work he begins in us (Phil 1:4). My "job" is to stay surrendered to Jesus and to allow the Holy Spirit to make me aware of the flaws in me he wants to address. It's really not me overcoming. In fact, many of my flaws and deceptions and sins I would never know I had if God didn't bring things into my life and bring me face-to-face with them. I have to be willing to take responsibility for what I've done when my flaws become known to me, but then I have to surrender them to Jesus and ask for His grace to empower me to live a new life without them. I know we can do word games with the idea of "overcoming" and what that means, exactly, but I know this: my spiritual growth and sanctification is not my overcoming. It is Jesus through the Holy Spirit becoming more and more at home in me. It is the result of my surrendering to His love and discipline and allowing HIM to purify me. I could never overcome my sins. Only He can. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Colleen, I liked this comment:
At my church, the Pastor did a whole series on the book of Revelation last summer. It was my first time studying the book without seeing it through SDA escathology. It was so refreshing. He made the exact point you did. The book of Revelation was a specific message to a group of people who had no knowledge of cold wars and 20th century world powers. It was written as a message of comfort to a group of people who were under intense persecution. The message was quite simple, "hold on. God is in control." He stressed the fact that the book of Revelation is not linear, but is circular in its fulfillment and that the prophecies are not necessarily fulfilled by one single event, but by repeated events througout history. Its intent was not to be some sort of timeline that one could look at to pinpoint mileposts along the way to the New Jerusalem. In particluar, I found the discussion of the 7 churches to be quite interesting. He noted that the seven churches were located dead center between Rome and Jerusalem. Rome is typically viewed as the center of pagan worship. Jerusalem is symbolized as the center of true worship. The messages are delivered to churches/cities in the order that they show up on a map. He compared the messages to the Children of Israel's journey from Egypt (Rome), through the wildrness (the seven churches) to Canaan (Jerusalem). The churches then are states that we can find ourselves in. He also noted the chiastic structure of the message (something that you are probably familiar with). I don't recall the details exactly (I'm writing off the top of my head--and that's dangerous), but would be glad to go back and look at my notes if you're interested. I guess I said this to say that after studying the book of Revelation in that manner, I no longer have a need to have it "figured out." It is the "revelation of Jesus Christ" and it shows me the fate of all the players. That's all I need to know and it gives me the motivation to stay my course. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Does anyone have any views on Messianic Judaism? Some friends of mine are trying to get me and my husband to come to their church (synagogue) next Sabbath. The only thing I have read was a really good article by a rabbi which I will post...I am not sure his views are indicative of all Messianic Jews but they seem to be in line with my thinking. WARNING, THIS IS LENGTHY BUT GOOD. Here it is... The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ This excerpt from Arnold Fruchtenbaumís ìMessianic Bible Studyî radio program is vital, because many believers are not sure just how they relate to the Law of Moses today. This is a particular problem for Jewish believers. Our purpose, then, is to deal with the Scriptures from a perspective that is both Jewish and biblical, so that we might help clarify and resolve this issue that is so crucial and prevalent for those of us working here at Ariel Ministries, and Jewish missions and evangelism, in general. If there is one immediate problem that seems to face the new Jewish believer in the Messiah, it is this relationship to the Law of Moses. The dilemma is: to what extent is the Messianic Jew to keep the Law of Moses? Two factors have developed in the minds and teachings of many Christians that have contributed to the creation of this problem. One is the practice of dividing the Law into ceremonial, legal, and moral commandments. On the basis of this division, many have come to think that the believer is free from the ceremonial and legal commandments but is still under the moral commandments. The second factor is the belief that the Ten Commandments are still valid today, while the other 603 commandments are not. When confronted by a Seventh Day Adventist, for example, an individual taking such an approach runs into problems concerning the fourth commandment on keeping the Sabbath. At that point, the believer begins fudging or hedging around the issue, and inconsistency results. While many different groups ñ both Jewish and Gentile, Messianic and non-Messianic ñ claim that we are still under the Law, none who say so actually believe it! Everyone who makes this claim then proceeds to make major adjustments to it, so many changes, in fact, that Moses himself would not recognize his own Law. No one who claims such today truly follows it as it is written. The solution to this problem lies in discovering what the Bible says about the Messianic believerís relationship to the Law, especially the Ten Commandments. The Purpose of the Law of Moses It is important to note that the Scriptures clearly state that the Law was given to Israel and not to the Gentiles or the Church (Deut. 4:7-8; Ps. 147:19-20; Mal. 4:4). Another thing to point out is the means by which the Mosaic Law was given. Most know that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai from the Hand of God. Ten of those commandments, written on tablets of stone, were written with the Finger of God. The Old Testament indicates that the other 603 were written down as Moses was commanded by God. Letís move on to another area to answer the question, ìWhat was the purpose of the Mosaic Law?î The Bible gives us several reasons for the purpose of the Mosaic Law. The first purpose was to reveal the holiness of God, to reveal the standard of righteousness that God demanded for a proper relationship with Him. Let me emphasize that at no time is it taught in Scripture that the Mosaic Law was the means of salvation. Such a concept would make salvation by means of works. We know, instead, that salvation was always by grace through faith. The content of faith has changed from age to age; exactly what one had to believe to be saved differed from age to age, depending on progressive revelation (that which God has revealed over time). But the means of salvation never changes, and the Mosaic Law was never intended to give the Jew a way of salvation. It was given to a people already redeemed from Egypt, not in order to redeem them. A second purpose of the Law was to provide the means or the rule of conduct for the Old Testament saints. We find this in Romans 3:20 and 28, where Paul makes clear that no man was justified by the works of the Law. The Law was never, ever a means of salvation. Rather, the Law always had other purposes, and, in this case, it provided the rule of life for the Old Testament believer. Two more purposes were: to keep the Jews a distinct people (Lev. 11:44-45; Deut. 7:6; 14:1-2); and, to provide Israel with occasions for individual and corporate worship. A fifth purpose for the Mosaic Law was to reveal sin. Three passages in Romans point this out. In Romans 3:19-20, Paul emphasizes that there is no justification through the Law. By means of the Law no Jewish person will be justified. So what is the Law if not a way of justification, a way of salvation? The Law is there to give us the knowledge of sin, to reveal exactly what sin is, as Paul repeats in Romans 5:20 and 7:7. Paul became aware of his own sinful state by searching the Law and realizing that he fell short of the righteous standards of God (an example of the first and third purposes of the Law at work together). Another purpose ñ this one is strange but true nevertheless ñ is to make a person sin more (Rom. 4:15; 5:20). Paul explains what he means by this in Romans 7:7-13 and again in I Corinthians 15:56, where we read that the power of sin is the Law. Basically, Paul is saying here that a sin nature needs a base of operation; furthermore, the sin nature uses the Law as a base of operation. Paul notes that where there is no Law, there is no transgression. He did not mean, of course, that there was no sin before the Law was given. Rather, the term ìtransgressionî is a specific type of sin violating a specific commandment. Men were sinners before the Law was given, but they were not transgressors of the Law until the Law was given. Once the Law was given, the sin nature had a base of operation, causing the individual to violate these commandments and sin all the more. This last purpose led to a seventh purpose, which is to lead us to absolute faith, specifically faith in Jesus the Messiah (Gal. 3:24). As hard as we may try to keep the Law perfectly, our sin nature prevents us from doing so, as Paul describes in the seventh chapter of Romans. There is yet another purpose, but this will be covered more appropriately later in this study. The Unity of the Law of Moses It must be understood that the Mosaic Law is viewed in the Scriptures as a unit. The word, Torah or ìLaw,î is always singular when applied to the Law of Moses, although it contains 613 commandments. The same is true of the Greek word, Nomos, in the New Testament. The division of the Law of Moses into ceremonial, legal, and moral parts is convenient for the study of different types of commandments contained within it, but it is never divided this way by the Scriptures themselves. Neither is there any scriptural basis for separating the Ten Commandments from the whole 613 and making only the Ten perpetual. All 613 commandments are a single unit comprising the Law of Moses. It is this principle of the unity of the Law of Moses that lies behind the idea of keeping the whole law in James 2:10. The Apostleís point here is clearly that a person needs only to break one of the 613 commandments to be guilty of breaking all of the Law of Moses. And this can only be true if the Mosaic Law is a unit. If it were not, the guilt would lie only in the particular commandment violated and not in the whole Law. In other words, if one breaks a legal commandment, he is guilty of breaking the ceremonial and moral ones as well. The same is true of breaking a moral or ceremonial commandment. To bring the point closer to home, a person under the Law of Moses who eats ham is guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments, although none of the Ten says anything about ham. In order to clearly understand the Law of Moses and its relationship to the believer (Jew or Gentile), it is necessary to view it as do the Scriptures: as a unit, one that cannot be divided into parts that are nullified and parts that are kept. Nor can certain commandments be separated in such a way as to give them a different status from other commandments. The Law of Moses Rendered Inoperative The clear-cut teaching of the New Testament is that the Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative with the death of Messiah; in other words, the Law in its totality no longer has authority over any individual. This is evident first of all from Romans 10:4, with Paul telling us that Christ is the end of the law. Galatians 2:16 concurs, stating that neither is there justification through the Law. Furthermore, there is no sanctification or perfection through the Law (Heb. 7:19). A second important point here is that the Mosaic Law was never meant to be a permanent administration, but a temporary one. In the context of Galatians 3:19, Paul describes the Law of Moses as an addition to the Abrahamic Covenant. It was added in order to make sin very clear so that all would know they have fallen short of Godís standard for righteousness. It was a temporary addition until Christ . . . till the seed should come; now that He has come, the Law is finished. Third, with Christ there is a new priesthood, according to the order of Melchizedek, instead of the former order of Aaron. Whereas the Law of Moses provided the basis for the Levitical priesthood, this new priesthood required a new law under which it could operate. Hebrews 7:11-12 explains that only one type of priesthood was permitted and that was the Levitical priesthood. But the Levitical priesthood ñ and its sacrificial system of animal blood ñ could not bring perfection; only the Messiahís blood could do that (Heb. 9:11-10:18). The Mosaic Law was the basis for the Levitical priesthood. But for the Levitical priesthood to be replaced by a new priesthood, the priesthood of Melchizedek, a change of the Law was required. Was there a change of the Law? Hebrews 7:18 states that the Mosaic Law was disannulled. Because it is no longer in effect, we can now have a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. If the Mosaic Law was still in effect, Yeshua could not function as a priest. But the Mosaic Law is no longer in effect, and so Jesus can be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The fourth line of evidence for the annulment of the Mosaic Law zeros right in on the part of the Law that most people want to retain ñ the Ten Commandments. Second Corinthians 3:2-11 is very significant here: First, we need to see what Paul is saying in this passage concerning the Law of Moses. He calls it both the ministration of death and the ministration of condemnation (vv. 7, 9) ñ both certainly negative but valid descriptions. In addition, Paul is clearly emphasizing the Ten Commandments, as it is these that are engraven on stones. The main point, then, is that the Law of Moses, especially as represented by the Ten Commandments, is a ministration of death and a ministration of condemnation. And this would remain true if the Ten Commandments were still in force today. But they are no longer in force, as the Law has passed away (vv. 7, 11). The Greek word used is katargeo, meaning ìto render inoperative.î Since this passageís emphasis is on the Ten Commandments, this means that the Ten Commandments have passed away. The thrust is very clear. The Law of Moses, and especially the Ten Commandments, is no longer in effect. In fact, the superiority of the Law of Christ is seen by the fact that it will never be rendered inoperative. Paul sheds more light on this in his letter to the Ephesians (2:11-16; 3:6), explaining that God has made certain covenants with the Jewish people. (In fact, God made four unconditional, eternal covenants with Israel: the Abrahamic, the Palestinian, the Davidic, and New Covenants.) All of Godís blessings, both material and spiritual, are mediated by means of these four Jewish covenants, which are eternal, as well as unconditional. At the same time, Paul points out that God added a fifth covenant: temporary and conditional, this is the Mosaic Covenant containing the Mosaic Law. According to Paul, the Mosaic Law served as a wall of partition (Eph. 2:15). And this is yet another purpose of the Law (one which we alluded to earlier): to serve as a wall of partition to keep Gentiles, as Gentiles, from enjoying Jewish spiritual blessings. In the Old Testament, if a Gentile wished to become a recipient of Jewish spiritual blessings, he would need to take upon himself the entire obligation of the Law ñ from circumcision to living as every other Jew lived. Only a Gentile who converted to Judaism could enjoy the blessings of the Jewish covenants. If the Mosaic Law were still in effect, there would still be a wall of partition to maintain this distinction between Jews and Gentiles. But the wall of partition was broken down with the death of Christ; again, the wall of partition was the Mosaic Law, and so the Law of Moses was rendered inoperative. Now, Gentiles as Gentiles, on the basis of faith, can and do enjoy Jewish spiritual (though not physical) blessings by becoming fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus. To summarize, the Law is a unit comprised of 613 commandments, and all of it has been invalidated. No commandment has continued beyond the cross of Yeshua. The Law exists and can be used as a teaching tool to show Godís standard of righteousness and our sinfulness and need of substitutionary atonement. It can be used to point one to Christ (Gal. 3:23-25). It has, however, completely ceased to function as an authority over individuals. Hebrews 8:1-13 draws a parallel between the Mosaic Law and the New Covenant: The writer, quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34, states that as soon as a ìnewî covenant was enacted, it rendered the Mosaic Covenant the ìoldî one ñ and that which is old is nigh unto vanishing away (v. 13). The Mosaic Law grew old under Jeremiah and vanished away when Messiah died. The Jewish Believer Is Under A New Law The Law of Moses has been done away with, and we are now under a new law. This new law is called the Law of Christ in Galatians 6:2, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Romans 8:2. This is a brand new law totally separate from the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ contains all the commandments applicable to a New Testament believer. The reason there is so much confusion over the relationship of the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ is that the two have many similar commandments, prompting many to conclude that certain sections of the Law have, therefore, been retained. But we have already shown that this cannot be so, and the explanation for the sameness of the commandments is to be found elsewhere. First, we must realize that there are a number of covenants in the Bible, including the Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, Mosaic, and New. A new covenant will always contain some of the same commandments as the previous covenant, but this does not mean that the previous covenant is still in effect. While certain commandments of the Adamic Covenant were also part of the earlier Edenic Covenant, it does not mean that the Edenic Covenant was still partially in force; on the contrary, it ceased to function with the Fall of man. The same is true when we compare the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. There are many similar commandments. For example, nine of the Ten Commandments are to be found in the Law of Christ, but this does not mean that the Law of Moses is still in force. Let me illustrate this by using an example which you may have also experienced. I received my first driverís license in the State of California; as long as I drove in California, I was subject to the traffic laws of that state. But two years later, I moved to New York. Once I left California, I ceased to be under Californiaís traffic laws. The traffic laws of that state were rendered inoperative in my case. Now my driving was subject to a new law ñ the traffic laws of the State of New York. There were many laws that were different: In California, I was permitted to make a right turn at a red light after stopping and yielding the right-of-way. But in New York this was not permitted. On the other hand, there were many similar laws between the two states, such as the edict to stop at red lights. However, when I stopped for a red light in New York, I did not do so in obedience to the State of California as I once had, but in obedience to the State of New York. Likewise, if I went through a red light without stopping, I was not guilty of breaking California law but New York law. Many laws were similar, but they were, nevertheless, under two distinctly different systems. The Law of Moses has been nullified, and we are now under the Law of Christ. There are many different commandments: The Law of Moses did not permit one to eat pork, but the Law of Christ does. There are many similar commandments as well, but they are in two separate systems. If we do not kill or steal, this is not because of the Law of Moses but because of the Law of Christ. Conversely, if I do steal, I am not guilty of breaking the Law of Moses but the Law of Christ. For believers, this understanding can resolve many issues ñ such as women wearing pants, the Sabbath, and tithing. As the commandments concerning these things are based on the Law of Moses, then they have no validity for the New Testament believer. The Law of Christ is now the rule of life for the individual New Testament believer. The Principle of Freedom What we are saying is that the believer in Yeshua Hamashiach is free from the necessity of keeping any commandment of the Law of Moses. But it is crucial to note that he is also free to keep parts of the Mosaic Law if he so desires. The biblical basis for this freedom to keep the Law is evident in the actions of Paul, the greatest exponent of freedom from the Law. His vow in Acts 18:18 is based on Numbers 6:2, 5, 9 and 18. His desire to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost in Acts 20:16 is based on Deuteronomy 16:16. The strongest example is Acts 21:17-26, where we see Paul himself keeping the Law. So, if a Jewish believer feels the need to refrain from eating pork, for example, he is free to do so. The same is true for all the other commandments. However, there are two dangers that must be avoided by the Messianic Jew who chooses to keep portions of the Law of Moses: One is the belief that one who does so is contributing to his own justification and sanctification. This is false and must be avoided. The second danger is that one may demand or expect others to also keep the Law. This is equally wrong and borders on legalism. The one who exercises his freedom to keep the Law must recognize and respect anotherís freedom not to do the same. Copyright © 1997, Ariel Ministries. All Rights Reserved This study is available in its entirety as Manuscript No. 006 for $3.00,or as a more detailed study with difficult passages, like Matthew 5:17-19,in Arnold's book, Israelology for $30.00 from:Ariel MinistriesP.O. Box 3723Tustin, CA 92781-3723Tel: (714) 259-4800Fax: (714) 259-1092E-mail: arielweb@ariel.orgPlease add $2.00 for standard U.S. postage (except foreign). CA residents: please add 7.75% sales tax. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Great article! While there are obviously Messianic Jews who are truly converted and understand the New Covenant from their independent Bible study, like the one above, many of them are still caught up in legalism. I know people who have spent time attending a Messianic Jewish church as a possible solution for no longer believing in EGW, and the services are still focussed on OT rituals. Judaizing, or requiring Gentiles to adopt Jewish rituals and practices as part of becoming Christian, was one of the early heresies against which Paul as well as the apostles at Jerusalem (see Acts 15) strongly preached. Gentiles were never to adopt Jewish customs as part of becoming Christians. Such customs were not part of their heritage, and those customs had no place in Christianity because the law is now obsolete. Read Galatians again to verify this, as well as 2 Corinthians. I'm not saying it's wrong to attend, but I'm saying that the focus is still on the things we're beginning to leave behind! If we had been Jews, maybe such a thing would have meaning. But Adventists, as pointed out above, have always had a twisted understanding of the law. Messianic Judaism will probably not help an Adventist to clear up his confusion. Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Yes Brad, I do have many comments but unfortunately I have to get to bed. At least tomorrow is Friday and I can stay up late tomorrow so I can talk to you about Babylon, but think on this until then: Every nation in the world is using English as a second language, so, we are like the old Babylon in that we have once again conquered the language barrier. Many think that the tower of Babel was the beginning of different languages, for discussion tomorrow with me, please study about what happened after the Ark landed, specifically Genesis 10:20 "their tongues" and read on just a bit further in the next chapter and see the mind set of the people in Babylon, read Genesis 11: verse one says: And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech....verse 3 says they said one to another. Go to, let us make brick, and burn them,throughly, and they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4. and they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. This is an advanced people speaking one language and living together as a people and that is where this phrase was coined from: The sky is the limit!!! Isn't that the way the world is now? Just look at what we are doing here at the forum folks, this thing goes around the world, we can speak to anyone, anytime, anywhere, but let us not get the mindset of ancient Babylon and think that we can get to God by doing it "OUR WAY". Till tomorrow, God bless and good night. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Carol, I believe that for one to trample on the Son of God and to think of what He did on the cross for us, as an unworthy thing would be worst than being Satan and being cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus loves us so much that He identifies Himself with us when He said things like: When Paul called Saul at the time was persecuting Christians Jesus asked Him why do you persecute Me? Whatever is done to the least in the kingdom of heaven is as done unto Me. Or when Jesus said that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist. After He said that John was the greatest up to that time. Jesus also said that John was Elijah if you can receive it, this maybe in type of the coming of the Lord through all in His kingdom that overcome. We overcome not by our strength but by His resurrection power working in us through faith in the outward sign of baptism in water. This speaks of dying to self then by being sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit and with the Holy Spirit we rise up to live with Him in newness of life. Sabra, You are right, but there were a few in the Church of Sardis that are worthy and walk with Him in robes of White. I could be wrong but I believe that they are the first who are caught up in the time of transition into the third heaven, before the 1,000 years of the Kingdom Age that we are about to enter. The reward for the church of Sardis is to walk with Him in His robes of White. It may seem like the smallest reward of all, but perhaps it is the greatest. Just think of it to walk with Him in His robe of white. The Ladiocian Church was told to buy white garment. They must have been wearing their own righteous works and thought that was good enough. The Church of Philadelphia when applied spiritually to us will no doubt be in the Kingdom Age, but even they have to make sure no one takes their crown which I believe it related to dying to self and having Jesus in our old mans place. Coleen, You nailed it right on when you wrote: my spiritual growth and sanctification is not my overcoming. It is Jesus through the Holy Spirit becoming more and more at home in me. Many have said that we have to be holy or we should live like Jesus did and not sin. The truth is in what you wrote, It is Jesus through the Holy Spirit becoming more and more at home in me. We are just His temple to live in. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Brad, I'm not sure what you meant by this statement:
By this are you saying that the when we "die to self," that the Holy Spirit enables us to live as Jesus did?" Thanks. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Brad, I do not understand why you gave me reference from Hebrews 10:29 when I was talking about Hebrews 6:4-6. I thought there was conversation about once saved always saved and in light of that conversation I said Hebrews 6:4-6 in my opinion could be taken only one way, and asked that you comment on that. As far as the trampling the Son of God as Hebrews 10:29 says I agree totlally. I am in full accordance with the fact that if we treat the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing we will be severely punished. In my opinion treating the blood of the covenant unholy would be to deny that it is in fact the only thing from which we are redeemed, from which we are santified, from which we are made righteous, from which we recieve an inheritence that cannot be taken away, from which we recieve the free gift of God(eternal Life). Again I would wonder why you went to another verse when in fact I stated plainly and even wrote it out. May we reason together, Carol | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
My friends who are trying to show me how everything comes together in Messianic Judaism sent me this. I see some error in it. Does anyone else? THE COMMENTS IN CAPS ARE MINE. SHE WRITES.... I must warn you that the "Messianic" movement itself is in as much chaos and strife as the mainstream Christian denominations. Much like the SDA's they also want to be accepted and loved by the world of "christianity" and as a result many compromise the pure faith in favor of old, fossilized TRADITIONAL customs which render them "acceptable" by the Christian talking heads of today. There is much truth mixed with lies. We have to be very careful not to trade one cocktail of lies for another less obvious cocktail of lies. The hardest lesson I have had to learn is that truth isn't found through association, it is found through complete faith and trust in Yahshua. This is painful, when it forces us to let go of things that we once held near and dear. But this is the work of Yahshua in our lives, transforming us into His image, burning off the fat of our fleshly natures and recreating us into new creatures who love Him first and foremost, even to the point of laying down our lives in His name. It makes us bold and compassionate all at once. I am so touched by your sincere search for truth and knowledge. My husgand and I also share this same goal. I hope that your husband will see that you are not rejecting Yahshua when you question EGW and the SDA denomination. No where in the New Testament does it tell us to put our faith in a prophet or a denomination in order to obtain salvation. The SDA's are not alone in promoting this view, Baptists, Mormons etc...all have their own set of laws by which you must conform in order to "ensure" your salvation. PHEEKI SPEAKING: HERE IS WHERE WE DEPART WAYS.... Also, I would ask that you consider a simple fact between now and when we visit together. The New Testament did not exist when Paul and the other apostles were teaching the former Gentile believers about Yahshua. Whenever you see the term "Scripture" used in the New Testament it is ALWAYS a reference to Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. Never is the term Scriptures applied to Paul's epistles or any of the other New Testament books that we today base our doctrine from. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that these books are not inspired, merely pointing out the fact the Scriptures Paul taught from were not the ones that we are taught to search in Christianity today. Paul praised new believers for their diligence in comparing his words to that of Scripture (Old Testament) to see if he spoke truth. Paul told us that the Scriptures contain everything we need for salvation and it should be the source for our doctrine and reproof of one another. How many Christian denominations do you know of today that base their belief and understanding of Yahshua in the Old Testament? Peter warned that those who were untaught (in Torah obviously) and unstable would take Paul's words and twist them to their own destruction. Paul himself proclaims that the Torah is holy and good and that our faith should ESTABLISH the Torah. Paul is accused by religious Jews in Jerusalem of preaching that the Torah of Moses was abolished. Paul is quick to take the Nazirite vow which involved sacrifices in the Temple, in order to prove that this is a false accusation. This action is actually recommended by the ELDERS to Paul in order to prove that he was not guilty of these accusations. A great deal of trouble in my mind to refute this teaching. 18On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. Acts 21:18 Clearly James is considered the leader of the apostles, not Paul. And chronologically the book of James should come first in the New Testament, rather than the gospels. Here Paul is speaking with the key leaders of the Nazarenes or "The Way" as Paul himself labels their movement. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. Acts 21:20 Here the elders are clearly indicating that the idea of rejecting the laws of Moses and their customs is not something that Yahshua taught or that they support. They were glad to see believers being zealous for the law. Verses 23 and 24 describe the solution to the problem, Paul should take the Nazirite vow (detailed in Numbers 6) in order to show this as a false accusation. Verse 25 refers us back to the Jerusalem Council's decision on Gentiles and the reasons behind it which are found in Acts 15. However, I will quickly note that the reasoning of Acts 15 was to keep from burdening the elders and other teachers. Acts 15:21 clearly indicates that these new believers were expected to attend the local synagogues on Shabbat where they would then learn the teachings of Moses (Torah). Later you can read in Acts 28 where Paul declares that he has never gone against Torah or the customs of their fathers before him. Clearly Paul is declaring himself to be a Torah-observant believer and the result is that no one has any cause to disagree with him. Another great example is of Stephen, the first recorded martyr. Acts chapter 7 contains this story but if we read Acts 6:11-15 we learn what the FALSE accusations against Stephen were. The two main accusations were: 1) Stephen speaks against the Temple, saying that Yahshua of Nazareth will destroy it. 2) That Stephen speaks against Moses and the law, saying that Yahshua changed these "customs" (another euphemism for Torah) that Moses recorded. The writer of Acts is quick to declare that these were FALSE charges, hence there was no truth in them. The first seems to try to insinuate that Yahshua had no respect for the Temple, however, we know this is false (He chased out the money changers) and that Yahshua was giving us a dual prophecy when He spoke of the Temple's destruction. And 2nd the accusation that Yahshua changed the laws of Moses are vehemently denied by Yahshua Himself in Matthew 5. Yahshua declares that until heaven and earth pass away not one letter or even one decoration, the little crown on the Hebrew letters, would in any way pass away from the Torah. The same false accusations that were used by the enemies of Paul and Stephen (and the enemies of Yahshua) are being taught from the pulpit of very nearly every Christian denomination today! A new gospel is being embraced, a gospel that is a far cry from the one that the Apostles taught. The Old Testament view of the New Covenant, or more correctly translated, the Renewed Covenant (Brit Chadasha) is a great topic! Be strong and of good cheer, the turmoil in your life is evidence of the Spirit working in your life and of your faithfulness in responding to Him. Search out and study EVERYTHING! YHVH will reward you with Truth and Light. I have to run now, but I am so looking forward to visiting with you guys! WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oh wow, Pheeki! Yep, this is classic scripture twisting. There is a lot of eisegesis (reading oneís own preferred interpretation into a text with no supporting evidence). I also see question begging (saying this proves that, without substantiating the claim) and non sequitur (out of sequence reasoning.) Their main starting point is that Jesus, the disciples, and the Apostles did not have the New Testament. Therefore, they only meant to teach the Old Testament. Then they go on to note the many references to the Old Testament to further prove their point. Oh, PUH-LEASE!! If you are teaching an entirely new concept to people from a certain tradition, of course you start your argument from where the ìaudienceî has understanding. The many, many, MANY times that the writers of the New Testament said ìthe Law and the Prophetsî were fading, incomplete shadows pointing to the Gospel and Jesus flatly rejects that reasoning. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Carol, My wife rearranged the room and I could'nt find the bible and I had assumed the text from Heb. 10:29 was before or after Heb.6:4-6. In regards to the question what do I think. God always gives us freedom to accept salvation or to walk away from it. I think that to walk away from salvation and to come back afterward would be like crucifying Christ a second time which would be immpossible. Doug, I left out a word, we are the temple for Jesus Christ to live in and manifest Himself through. In other words we are his hands and his feet. Our words are to be His words. This can only done through the power of the Holy Spirit that is working in us. Grace and Peace Brad | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
thanks Jerry. I had to think b/c it is true that Paul hadn't written his letters yet, and the disciples hadn't written the words Jesus spoke yet... but to go back to relying only on the OT is absurd. Everything changed when Jesus came, he is the exact representation of God's true character (not the 10 Commandments as some SDA have said) and to ignore the NT is to put Jesus in the shadows and the OT (Law and Prophets) in the limelight. Sound familiar? Perhaps my friend has joined another form of SDAism? Staying in the comfort zone? I also think they don't believe in the Trinity...but more on that later as it is more fully revealed from them.... They are truly passionate to share what they know. I told them from the beginning I would not be pulled back into bondage. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Brad, I am in total agreement with you that to walk away from our salvation is not a possiblity because like it says once we have been enlightened and tasted and are sure we are saved then there is no possiblity to go back because Christ is the last sacrifice for sin. Now I would like to say to those who might be of the inclination to believe that we do not know when we are saved that they in fact are not saved. That is what this verse is saying also to me that if I have been enlightened(know that I am saved),if I have tasted(then I know whether I like something or not, know whether I will keep on eating it or never want it again)and why would anyone not like a free gift of eternal life? I like the way Bob George of People to People radio ministries and author of many books one being Classic Chiritianity puts it "You can't come back from somewhere you have't been. You cannot say you can lose your salvation unless you are already secure in knowing you have salvation and I dare say if someone tells you that it is Biblical to never say you are saved then you have a real problem. I gave birth to 3 children; they were all different; they are all different but I know what joy I felt when their birth occured. It was the most wonderful, awesome, powerful, breathtaking experience I have ever had. I know it because I expereinced it and even though this happened 38,35,& 34 years ago I still remember it well enough to this past year write a detailed description of that glorious event for all of them. I had a daughter-in-law ask me if I just wrote that up now or if I had written it up earlier and I said just now. That's the way I feel about being saved it is the most wonderful, awesome, powerful glorious thing that has ever happened to my spiritual being. Now when I see it happen to my dauhgter because of her husbands dupation into SDA I feel born again the 3rd time. If you aren't saved there is nothing to talk about just like if you haven't expereinced the joy of birth you cannot speak of it. But I have experienced both and I will and do, and you cannot shut me up(sorry)talk incessantly about both. And you know even when I get upset with them it never takes away from that glorious day. Likewise even when I do things that I know are contrary to God's perfect path for my life he always takes me back to how glorious His plan of salvation is for me. Enough for now, thanks for the understanding of the mixup scripture, Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, I just want to caution you to please be careful. I totally agree with Jerry above; that letter is classic scripture twisting. I've had correspondence with someone who has been studying with Jews (I suspect Messianc Jews, and the gospel is completely confusing to this person. The doubts cast uypon Paul are consistent, and they lead those who study into doubting that one has to accept the blood of Jesus as essential for salvation. Jesus, yes; his blood--well, that's a PAULISM! Peter, in 2 Peter 3:16, elevated Paul's writings to the category of scripture. The Messianc Jews refuse to see this. They are completely based in Old Covenant teachings. (I'm sure there are some that aren't, but so many are!) Colleen | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I suspected as much. Too much of it feels and sounds like Adventism. I am grateful to all who give input on this b/c I do not want to get sucked back into bondage. The H.S. gave me a funny feeling about it. I knew right away that the part about the apostles only teaching from OT scripture was a technicality. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, From the things I have seen you post, I have no doubt that you and you alone togehter with the Holy Spirit will figure things out. That does not mean that you should not look at any other material,but when you do you will find just like you just did that the H.S will be there to give you that uncomfortable feeling. Don't expect to know all the answers. I can say that because 6 months into my incounter with SDA I had a Bible that was full of post-it notes on all the things that I thought could possibly be relevant and then little by little God revealed more. And I am still in awe of the way that happens. I don't know if you say my post about reading Sabras post to another web forum but that was scripture that hadn't crossed my path yet and I was blown away by it. There is no doubt in my mind that God does not intend for us to hold Saturday as the only day to worship but it was such a positive for me. If you didn't see it she was comparing Jermiah 17:21 to John 5:8. I have others that have come to me in mysterious ways because I was not looking for them but they came and I just cannot Praise God enough for the way he goes before me. I know he is doing that for you also. Trust in God alone and he will guide you to all truth. Carol | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I wish I could say that I had no doubts about it. I sat through a sermon yesterday that admonished us to keep the Sabbath better. Of course no exact guidelines were given, just that we probably were not keeping it like we should be. The focus is all wrong, it is on us! We should be focusing on bringing the "good news" to others, not tying to make ourselves better. That is the problem with the SDA church, it focuses on "self" instead of others. It creates introverts instead of people assured of salvation, ready to spread the "good news" to the world. If you are so worried that you might have not kept the Sabbath right, or ate the wrong thing, or are searching your conscience for an unconfessed sin...well, that pretty much takes up all of your time. The devil sure can work with that kind of focus. Then you get depressed b/c you fall short of standards...discouragement sets in and then often you just don't care anymore or you live very anxiety ridden. I told one of the ladies in the church yesterday that I wasn't an SDA anymore. She took it pretty good. She is one of the ones up there that seem to be on fire for the Lord. Still I thought afterwards that maybe I shouldn't have. I don't want my kids looked down on. It was a brief conversation but I was able to tell her about my differences with the baptismal rules SDA have and what the bible says. Maybe she will think about it? | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
colleen, I looked up 2 Peter and thankyou so much. I always find something good on this website to help me understand, and that I can pass on to others. We have a consortium here! doug...Please tell more about Revelation. Get your notes out and tell us anything you think pertinant. I have never heard any other views than that of the revelation seminars. (SDA). Your prayers are working, my husband and I are getting along pretty well. I bought my Mom her own NIV VERY LARGE LETTERED Bible with tabs and her name engraved on it. She was quite pleased. It occurred to me she has probably never had her very own Bible with her name engraved on it. She stayed up until midnight the first night reading it-she was so excited. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Pheeki, I went yesterday with my mom to the SDA. It was nice. No preaching, no sermon, only music by a slew of Monterey Bay Academy students.Several folks at that church have asked me how come I don't attend there unless I'm bringing my mother. I try to be tactful and tell them tht I have never considered myself SDA since reaching majority but I do hae a group of Christians I regurally wroship with. Some ask who/where questions, some just don't want to get into it. One lady when I told her I joined St. John's was very, very sweet about it, saying something to the effect that we each nee to attend where we get the Word of God to meet our own needs, etc. She even is a teacher up here at the SDA school. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Janice,Sorry that I did not get back to you sooner. The other thing that came to my mind after reading your message was in what occured in the upper room. Babylon counterfeited the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a way. They were all of one mind and accord in the upper room and spoke in different tongues that other people understood. This may have been a reversal from Babylon when they all spoke the same language and then after their language was broken they became confused. In the upper room they were of one mind and accord. One thing that came to my mind the other day was that Jesus did not have to must if anything to say about Babylon or the Beast. Matt. 24 He mentioned what Daniel said and thats about all. He sure had alot to say about the Kingdom of God though. John saw into the future and forewarn us about the negative things to come as well as the positive things concerning Jesus Christ during the Kingdom Age. Let me know about the other things that you going to say about Babylon. I still find it interesting. God Bless | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Brad, I agree with your comments about Pentecost reversing Babel. I've thought about that, too. When God confounded the languages at Babel, he said if he didn't, nothing would be impossible for them. Think of the implications for evil if nothing were impossible for people who had no barriers keeping them from sharing their unique knowledge. With language divisions, people grouped themselves and became protective of themselves in a new way. They developed "national" secrets, and they had reason to distrust each other. Collaboration had to stop. After the story of Babel in Genesis, the Bible is silent about God intersecting human history until the call of Abraham. Some commentators say that Babel marked God's removal of his divine intervention in human affairs, allowing humanity to go its own way until God again appeared to Abaraham and instituted his covenant with him. Interestingly, the confusion of languages coincided with God removing his divine intervention. At Pentecost, God finally reuinted humanity with himself. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, men and women could be one with him for the first time since Eden. The mark of God's entering humanity in an intimate way, the most intimate since before sin (the Holy Spirit indwelling people), was the gift of tongues. The presence of God restored the possibility for people to be in unity once more, to be able to collaborate and understand each other. But now, true unity is possible only through the Holy Spirit. The fact that evil people have also transcended the language and nationalistic barriers is a counterfeit unity. Collaboration without the Holy Spirit is self-centered and greedy. People collaborate only to ensure their own success. With the Holy Spirit, people work for each other's good. Their goal is not their own success, but the honoring of the Lord Jesus. It's amazing to begin to discover how much the Old Testament pre-figured or foreshadowed Jesus and his work. God is amazing! Colleen | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Colleen, I appreciated what you had to say for more insight about how the Holy Spirit is at work in our lives. Here is some info. on how creation pre-figured spiritual things for us today. Expecially the first four days. From the days of creation to the law and the nation of Israel, they all had significant meanings so that we who were spiritually blind can see Godís purposes in the new Covenant. If we look only at the shadows, types and patterns in the old Covenant and fail to see what they pointed to in Christ, we will be lead into confusion. Jesus said in John 3: 3 that unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God. The things and ways of the old covenants were local and physical in nature that pointed to worldwide and spiritual things for the new covenant. Even in a sense what one man did ìthat is Jesus Christî now many men and women now do worldwide. Jesus had the Spirit in full measure, but now the same Spirit is diversified and given to us as He wills, though every believer has a measure of the Spirit at all times. Without going into much of the fine details of offerings, sacrifices and things that the sanctuary had. Iíll bring out some things that will help us understand why the Holy Spirit will write His laws in our heart and mind. I believe the Holy Spirit wants us to understand the ways of the new covenant by looking at the old covenant laws and understand what they pointed to for fulfillment in the Spirit of the law. But before we get into the law lets look at creation. THE FIRST DAY Genesis 1 The Creation 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. On the first day God created the heaven and the earth and said let there be light. This would point to Jesus as that light of the world. By the way Jesus said that we are the light of the world in: Matthew 5 14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. No wander why pagans of Babylon worshipped their sun-god on Sunday the first day of the week. Satan desires to be like God to distract people away from the true God. Sunday the first day or eight day had many interesting things that took place on that day. The nation of Israel about twenty times a year had to perform ceremonial requirements on Sunday as well as every Sabbath. The greatest day in the old covenant was the Day of Atonement that was on the eighth day being a Sunday. This was when the record of the sins of Israel was wiped clean. Jesus rose from the grave on a Sunday and that was the most important thing that ever happened. Had Jesus not rose from the dead we would still be dead in our sins. The next most important event that happened on the fist day of the week was the day the church was born when God gave the infilling of the Holy Spirit to the believers in the upper room. Jesus also appeared after His resurrection, broke bread and gave it to His disciples on the first day of the week. Why did God do all this on a Sunday when the Sabbath day was the day that He blessed and set apart to be holy when so many wonderful things occurred on the fist day of the week? Most likely the things that were done on Sunday brought light to the world in what they represented, while the seventh day brought the best to us personally. No wander why the early church would keep a tradition to meet on that day. That also made a statement to the Jews, that they were free from the law of sin and death. Genesis 2 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." SECOND DAY Genesis 1 6Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. " 7Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. The second day of creation God created the expanse or the separation of water from the earth into the sky to form clouds. We do not always see the expanse between earth and sky but we know it is there, God called this heaven. This pointed to the third heaven that is in the Spirit realm. The second heaven was created on the four day. The third heaven can be seen in our relationship with God as our Spirit ascends like water into the air, this is what the meaning of being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds is about. By faith when we were baptized in water we died with Christ. Than as Christ rose from the dead, our Spirit separated from the earthly things into the heavenly things just like water expanding into the air. As clouds are formed by the expanse of water, we come together in fellowship with Christ and each other in the Spirit. Then as rain comes back to the earth we are sent into the world to give it life, with Christ ìImmanuelî manifesting His life through us. And there you have the coming of the Lord. THIRD DAY Genesis 1 9Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13So the evening and the morning were the third day. The third day God separated the waters on the earth and made land appear. This was the day the Garden of Eden was created with all the plant life God gave for food except from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God created all things and rested the seventh day and said it was all very good. This day of creation speaks of the freedom we will have in the Garden of Eden, and eating from the tree of life. The freedom Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden is to return after this world becomes the Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords. God will use His freedom fighters to fight with a spiritual sword ìword of Godî from their mouth all who are modern day Pharisees. We will no longer be under rules and regulations that some religious people have used to keep people out of the Kingdom of God. There are things that God said were free for us to use, but society has outlawed. These are the rules and regulations that will be done away with in the Kingdom of God. Then there are rules and regulations that are to be established as laws with two or three being in agreement. We need certain rules and regulations just for our safety and wellbeing. FORTH DAY Genesis 1 14Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. On the fourth day of creation God created the heavens beyond our planet and atmosphere. He also regulated the time of day. This day points to the new heaven that waits for those in the third heaven after they physical die on earth. The new heaven will have no regulation of time for there will be no sun. The Lord will be itís light. This sounds like the condition before the first day but we will not go there unless creation has to start all over again. The new heaven will be a place where righteousness dwells. That means the third heaven has a few problems in it like, what happens after the 1,000 years when Satan is released from the Abyss for a short time to try and deceive the nations. Thank God he will be thrown into the lake of fire and not down to the new earth like the first time he was cast out of heaven. Just like the old covenant ending because it was not perfect and the new covenant took over, the new heaven and new earth will replace the third heaven and this earth. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
TALK ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABYLON...I SENT A COPY OF WHAT COLLEEN HAD WRITTEN ABOUT JAMES TO MY MESSIANIC FRIEND AND THESE ARE HER COMMENTS. IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME. IT'S LIKE THEY HAVE MADE CHRISTIANITY SO COMPLICATED. wHEN YOU SEE ## THESE ARE HER COMMENTS NOT COLLEEN'S. I just went through the book of James at our Trinity Women's Ministry Bible Study last quarter. I'm so amazed at how the New Testament makes real sense when you see it in a historical and cultural context. I'm finally getting a NT education! ##But the point I want to make is this: James is not a book about law and works. That book always confused me. I learned, finally, that James was the first book written in the New Testament, and it was written approx ten years (give or take a couple) after Jesus ascension. It was written by James, Jesus' half-brother, who was the head of the fledgling church in Jerusalem. The audience for James was the scattered Jewish believers. At Pentecost, when 3,000 were converted in one day, the church was born. ##Thats not accurate. The "church" never existed during the life of the apostles. The ekklesia (assembly) existed for the first time at Mt. Sinai for the giving of the Torah. The term Pentecost is a Greek term, and obviously the Hebrews were not celebrating Greek festivals. Rather this was the feast of Shavuot (weeks) which celebrated the giving of the Torah. Coincidence? I think not! Because at Mt. Sinai 3000 were killed after they bowed the knee to an idol, an idol which they claimed represented YHVH! ##So on the day of Shavuout when the Ruach is poured out, 3000 people are saved. What an amazing phenomena because now Shavuout represents the Torah and the Ruach! Jews from all over the world had attended Passover in Jerusalem, and they had stayed on for the Feast of Pentecost which happened about 10 days later. ##Shavuot means "weeks" and Pentecost means "50th." From the day following Passover begins what is called "the counting of the omer." An omer is a unit of measurement. The counting of the omer ties the Passover celebration to the celebration of the giving of the Torah and the spring feasts are not considered complete until Shavuot. What I mean is that the feasts of Passover, Unleaved Bread and First Fruits, are not complete until the Feast of Shavuot. After Shavuot comes what are termed the fall feasts. ##From the day following Passover, you count 49 days and then the 50th day is Shavuot/Pentecost hence their meanings of weeks and 50. Scholars agree that the Messiah lived and walked the earth for 40 days after his resurrection, at which time He told the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem. They would have been expecting Yahshua's promise to occur on Shavuot. Therefore, 10 days after Yahshua departed would have fallen on Shavuot and the time line would make sense. But it did not happen 10 days after Passover. The amazing miracle? Thousands of observant Jews left Jerusalem as newly converted Christians. ##If the Apostles heard this tidbit they would be shocked. No one even knew what a Christian was back then and it wouldn't be for some years to come. Christ is a Greek term, and was actually used before this time period as the proper name of one of their gods. The name Christian is first used by Greek gentiles, most likely as a term of derision which associated the body of believers with pagan Christ worshippers. The later use of Jesus with its unnecessary US at the end was a common practice among the Greeks in honor of Zeus. There are many examples of this, Tarsus for one. They heard Peter preach, and they heard the news of Jesus death and resurrection. ##From what I understand all the Apostles did was preach Isaiah 53 which was the HafTorah reading for that day. They taught Yahshua as the fulfillment of this prophecy and the Ruach convicted the believers. They left that place as Jewish as when they had first arrived, but they left as TRUE Israelites rejoicing in the fulfilling of their Scriptures. Those thousands of new Christians went back to their homes and communities no longer looking for a Messiah-they were Christians. They had no congregations in which to worship. They were isolated and scattered; they were the beginning of The Church. ##Nope, actually all the Scriptural and archeological and extra-Biblical evidence tells us that they continued to worship in the synagogues, totally undiscernable from their non-believing Jewish counterparts. However, I have no doubt that they did congregate together as well. James wrote to them to encourage them. Paul hadn't been converted yet; these people only had the OT and the news of a risen Messiah. James had to encourage them in their Christian life using words and paradigms that made sense to them. They had only been Christians a few years, and they had no NT to study and no groups of believers to talk with. ##True, but then they didn't need the NT to know Yahshua. They already had the Torah which is all they needed for salvation, for doctrine and for reproof. James isn't teaching them some new religion, he is showing them the hidden Messiah in their own Scriptures. He is explaining the concept of faith and the Torah and how they operate together as one function. When James talks about the law, he distinctly refers to the Royal Law of Scripture (James 2:8): "Love your neighbor as yourself." He even calls it "the law that gives freedom." (James 2:12) When he talks about faith and works, he's talking about these Jewish Christians living by faith in Christ, but letting that faith build their trust in God so God can help them live lives of integrity and love. ##First of all, James starts his letter by stating that he is a bondservant to YHVH and to Yahshua. He isn't talking about being free, as in not having a master that he serves in obedience. ##The "Royal law" here is taught in Leviticus 19:18. It isn't something new that we are at liberty to define according to our own personal whims. The concept of the Torah bringing liberty was first taught in the Tanakh as well. James makes a very big deal about these scattered Christians learning to live with love: don't gossip, take care of the poor, pray for the sick, ask God for wisdom, etc. He's telling them: in your new life of faith and grace, you will reflect God. You must not think that now that Messiah has come you have the "freedom" to do anything your whims tell you to do. You now have to "speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (James 2:12-13) What a very New Testament concept! Mercy triumphs over judgment! ##Its ironic that there is more mercy and grace taught in the Tanakh than there is in the Brit Chadasha. There are not very many new ideas anywhere in the Brit Chadasha because the Brit Chadasha is founded upon the Torah and uses it as its basis for authority. When I understood that James was writing to hard-core Jews who had no "blueprint" for how to be Christians, the book suddenly made sense. James isn't saying you have to have faith, and then you have to have works. He's saying, if you have faith, your works will be merciful, and you will fulfill the Royal Law. ##Faith and works are the same thing is what James is telling us. We cannot try to seperate them out and make faith into some sort of intellectual exercise. Even the demons believe that Yahshua is YHVH, so what? That doesn't save them, now does it? No it is true faith, which is a combinations of faith and works by which we are justified. If you claim to have faith but you do not display obedience to your master then you are a liar and there is no truth in you. ##Why would a Jew want to be a Christian, named after a pagan Greek god? The term Christian was pagan, not from the Apostles and the early assembly of believers. They were all Israelites or Nazarenes or followers of The Way, but did not consider themselves Christians as the pagans called them. It wouldn't be until much later when the gentile pagans hijacked the pure faith that all these labels became popular and the term Christian was eventually adopted. James, in reality, is a book of grace-not a book of works and law! What a surprise! Colleen I THINK SHE IS SERIOUSLY BORDERING ON BLASPHEMY HERE...WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Pheeki, that last paragraph sounds remarkably similar to the SDA's twists and turns that end up with them declaring themselves to be far superior to all the rest. Our pastor likes to say that the gospel is so simple, it takes a man to make it complicated. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Thank-you Lydell. That is what I have been maintaining this entire time. I am going to stop communicating with them because I don't think they will listen objectively to anything I have to say. I mean, to basically say the NT is full of error and that Jesus' name is pagan, and all Christianity is pagan...come on. God has protected the Bible and has put in it exactly what he wanted put in it and I trust him! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree with your assessment, Pheeki. Colleen |
