| Author |
Message |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:57 pm: |     |
I don't usually ring in on this topic because to be quite honest, I am not sure what to make of it. I am open to the possibility that there is a continuation of life (in some form) beyond death, but I am not ready to say that the saved are in heaven just yet.
In the same way that Lydell is uncomfortable with the wicked existing in hell already, I am uncomfrotable with the idea of the righteous enjoying their reward already. I believe that occurs at the second coming. The story of Lazarus (the real Lazarus, not the one in the parable) illustrates my point. He had been dead for four days when Jesus raised him. Wouldn't it be cruel for him to be enjoying his eternal rewards, and then be "recalled" to a life of sickness/death again? Also, was his memory of heaven erased when he returned to earth? Could death be just how it is described in the Bible--sleep, dreamless sleep?
It seems to me that there are verses that support both arguements (that there is life after death, and that there is a pause between death and the second coming). Because God has not revealed this to me with any degree of clarity, I am willing to concede that it is not important for me to know right now.
However, this I do know. From the moment I accepted Jesus as my saviour, my eternal destiny became secure. I don't have to know all the details in order to accept that.
In His Grace
Doug |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:04 am: | |
Yes, I too believe that the exact, personalized REWARDS will be given later; however, I do believe the Bible clearly teaches that at death the immortal soul/spirit goes to either heaven or hell. There are later various degrees/tiers of rewards for both classes of people as they reunite with their bodies or physical tent (using Pauline language). As on earth today, the godly and ungodly have a vastly different stature before God.
Heaven will not be the same for everyone, nor will hell be the same for everyone. God is not obligated to save anybody, nor to treat everyone the same. With objectivity far beyond our human ability, our sovereign and awesome God gives us an INDIVIDUAL assessment that truly reveals His great love and justice.
Unlike our Adventist friends, who are planning to put God on trial to determine whether He is honest, just, and fair, we can truly trust His judgments. If we cannot even trust God now, we will most certainly not be with Him forever.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Angie (Angie)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Dennis That is exactlly what adventist think they will do,put Jesus on trial.For some reason,I believe that when in Heaven;if our loved ones aren't there we as Christians,know that God is just in his judgement and knows all things,and he wouldn't be nothing but 'fair' in his judgement so as Christians,we know that he is being 'right not to have them there.I know that to say that would be easier than watching a loved one burn,but it has to be something like that,don't you think??Or maybe we don't see them and their memory is wiped away??I don't even know if that part is even in the Bible or if it is one of EGW quotes branded on my brain!!Anyway this is one subject I need to stay away from until I can study it more!!SO I have to go now and do my home-maker things,I've been on-line since I got up this morning!! God Bless, ANGIE |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 4:28 pm: | |
Angie, It is getting late for me, but I did want to address your post concerning the state of the dead. Please don't ever get caught up in the idea that there are ghosts roaming about anywhere because God plainly says that a man is given "once" to live and after that "the judgment". Any supernatural activity from someone who seems to be a departed loved one is no more than one of Satan's demons, and if the Devil can get you hooked into believing that you saw your dead grandmother or anyone for that matter, then what it does is make you begin to doubt what clear Bible scripture has to say on the subject. Don't believe one thing and next day you won't believe two, then three, etc.
The fact is: When Jesus descended into the lower mosts parts of the earth, hell, grave, etc. after his death, he changed everything and that was why Jesus told the thief that he would be with him that day in paradise. Study out what the gospel of Matthew says in 27:52--And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And came out of the graves, AFTER THE RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This is where it all changed. Before Christ's death, men went to the grave where there was a great gulf that separated the righteous dead from the wicked dead. Many SDAs will try to convince you that Jesus' story of the rich man being in torments is just an analogy of some sort since taking it literally would cause them to question and doubt their beliefs on both "soul sleep" as well as that of a "tormenting eternal hell" so when asked about this passage, they usually find something to jump over to to keep the subject from being pursued further.
Also, all of the Pauline Epistles speak of Paul wanting to be with the Lord greatly but prays for the grace to do the work of an evangelist that the Lord had sent him to do. He spoke in other places about "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" too. Paul certainly preached that presence with God was instantaneous. Seems that I remember too that somewhere the Bible mentions that Jesus was the "first fruits" AFTER the resurrection. Study up about first fruits to help with this better.
The reason I highly discourage a belief in ghosts is because we are also warned that even Satan can appear as an angel of light and his demons can appear as ministers of righteousness. We are warned against any form of witchcraft and reading horoscopes, palm reading, tarot cards, crystal balls, ouiji boards, etc. are forms of seeking spiritual access to an area that God calls us to walk in faith.
I was personally raised with Dell Purse Horoscope books and it certainly didn't help that my birthday fell on Halloween either. Consider the fact that horoscopes are just like any other type of prediction, the odds fall 50/50, right? That reminds me of the joke about old Dionne Warwick and her phone line for horoscopes going bankrupt--the joke is: Why didn't she SEE it coming? Ha, ha.
Another topic that I would like to bring to the forum is this: All holidays that celebrate God and his blessings and gifts seem to have just enough element of the devil in them to make you want to quit celebrating holidays at all. I could really open up in the forum about some of the occult rituals that have infiltrated our Christian holidays. Examples, Santa Claus, the Easter (Queen Astar, fertility goddess) bunny, sunrise services (Sun worshipers) and the fall festival of course is the worst with the worship of the dead (Originated with Catholics) among other things but have to stop right now and get my things ready for work early in the morning.
Looking forward to your comments.
Janice |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 8:24 pm: | |
Dennis, that is an interesting thought, that the souls of the wicked dead are in hell but without having been given yet their specific judgment. It's the opposite of the saved souls being present with the Lord but lacking their full reward and bodily redemption. Thanks for saying that.
As far as holidays are concerned, Jesus redeemed everything for us. Jesus "redeemed" the reputation of the cross, a pagan instrument of torture, and by dying on it made it a symbol of life. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, I am SO GRATEFUL to finally have Easter! I can actually celebrate the resurrection without the fear of contamination by Sunday worship!
As an Adventist, the only acceptable Easter symbols were the pagan ones: bunnies, candy, eggs...Now I can embrace Sunday services--at sunrise, if I wish!--and celebrate the emtpy tomb! I can truly celebrate Christmas now; it stands for something that is more precious than life: Jesus' birth. Even though I have personal feelings of antipathy toward Hallowe'en, I completely respect and support the purpose of many people and churches to create a safe place on that night where people can come, have fun, and even hear the gospel.
Pagan influences are everywhere. I believe we give them too much power in our lives if we withhold from Christian holidays because they've been tainted. If we are worshiping Jesus, He blesses our holidays and makes them celebrations of himself. In fact, they seem far less pagan to me than they used to seem!
I praise Him for redeeming not only the past but the present and future as well!
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:16 pm: | |
Janice, I recently read about a doed headlines we'll never see and one on them was, "Psychic wins big in lottery". But, then I thought about that. It was ment as a joke but really that isÝa headline I've never seen. And, I do think is the self-proclaimed psychics really had that ability they would for sure be cashing in big with the lotteries. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:18 pm: | |
Janice, I recently read about a dozen headlines we'll never see and one of them was, "Psychic wins big in lottery". But, then I thought about that. It was ment as a joke but really that isÝa headline I've never seen. And, I do think if the self-proclaimed psychics really had that ability they would for sure be cashing in big with the lotteries. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
As a child I was only allowed to have the pagan symbols of holidays, the egg hunt, sitting on Santa's lap in the department stores, etc Yet, my parents never had a Christmas tree in their home. Holidays were totally weird with my family. I was not alloweedto go trick-or-treating because celebrating was wrong, yet my parents would purchase bags and bags of candy and pass it out to the kids that came to our house oooahing and aaawhing over their costumes. Never made sense to me. If it is wrong then it is wrong and that's that. The honest thing would have been to tell the trick-or-treaters that they didn't partisipate in Holloween and leave it at that. I got to sit on Santa's lap in the department stores and my parents always would drive me around in our city to see the pretty decorations and lights but we did not have Christmas in our home because it was wrong. The same went for Easter. I was told it was wrong to celebrate Easter as a Christian holiday but it was o.k. to have the fun of coloring eggs and finding them in the yard. Shortly before my dad died he mentioned "those heathens who worship the sun". I asked him who he was talking about and he told me he was referring to all the people who think they are Christians but they really aren't because on Easter Sunday they go over to the beach before sunrise so when the sun comes up they can show the world what heathens they really are by worshipping the sun. Fortunatelly for me I had no contradictions about birthdays. I was taught they were a special day for that person whose birthday it really was. However, Groundhog Day has always been a big day of celebration in my family. It always seemed like a holiday we could embrase that most likely had no pagan heritage. Come to think of it, I think I'll do an Internet search on Groundhog Day just to make sure there is nothing pagan about Groundhog Day. You know, in the Communist countries the biggest holiday is May Day. See, they don't have open religion so to keep the peons at the bottem happy with a holiday the governments give thm the beginning of spring to celebrate. |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:23 am: | |
I agree with what you said,Colleen. I would imagine if one wanted to look into it deeply enough, you could probably find some "pagan" connection with virtually every day of the year. But why would you want to do that? God created the world. I see him as owning the days also. I'm not willing to give satan ownership of any day of the year.
Janice, I personally don't see any redeeming aspect of Halloween. However, there was another thing that happened on the same date, that is that Luther nailed his thesis to the door of the cathedral that day and the Reformation got going. Some churches have a fall, or havenst festival, if the Lord is the one who gives harvest, then there is certainly nothing wrong with celebrating harvest!
You know the gifts at Christmas are supposed to be representing the greatest gift that we received thru Christ's birth. The lights on the tree began as a way of representing the light of the world we have in Jesus. And NO the tree does NOT harken back to some pagan festival, it is done to remind us that Jesus is the life. The sunrise services at Easter, contrary to what the SDA's have said, are not taking place because of worshipping the sun. They happen because people are remembering back to when the women went to the tomb early on resurrection day. It is a celebration of our faith.
I think one of the things most go thru after leaving Adventism is learning that there ARE good resons why there are different symbols used by Christians during the Holidays. It is a process of unlearning the sda lies.
The way you counteract stuff is by replacing it with the positive. You take back ownership of it for the King. For instance, I cringe when I hear parents growl, "I'm not going to let my kids listen to THAT kind of music", yet never give them anything positive to put in its place, never actually discuss what is positive or negative in music or art. They automatically assume they can give their kids hymns alone to listen to.
It's really an absure idea. HE invented music. And has placed in the soul of every culture on the planet that prompting to make music about feelings and things that happen in their lives. And He didn't give just one kind of music but a great whomping variety of it. When we say that "only hymns are good" we are actually giving up ownership of all other music to satan.
The same thing applies to the holidays. They are most awesome opportunities for witness, if we will just allow Him to give us the creativity to use them to spread the kingdom. Does a satanist enjoy celebrating his high sabbath of the year on Halloween? Maybe. So why should a Christian sit back, hide out, or be a sanctimonious pain in the neck (you know...giving a little unsuspecting kid a tract condemning him to hell instead of a piece of candy)? Instead, we throw a better party that focuses on the Lord. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:31 am: | |
At the Lutheran church we have an annual celebration that I immagine is exclusiveally Lutheran called Referrmation Day. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:37 am: | |
Lydell,
I used to be one of those dogmatic folks when it came to holidays--Christmas especially. I have backed way off of that. After my first Christmas outside of Adventism, I remember thinking, "finally, I undestand the true meaning of Christmas." But I am here to tell you that there is no way that I can accept that the presents, the trees, the lights, etc. are anything other than what they are--pure commercialism. Maybe those symbols had some spiritual significance many years ago, but I think most of that is gone now.
If you don't believe me, consider this: Most CHristians readily admit that Jesus was not born on December 25th. Instead, He was probably born in the spring or the winter. Do you suppose that Christmas would be as big of a celebration (even among Christians), if we moved the celebration to October, and didn't celebrate anything but His Birth? I think not.
Doug |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 9:39 am: | |
About Sunday = pagan:
Donít forget. The ìSunî part of Sunday only occurs in Northern European Languages.
In the earlier languages used in Christianity, Greek and Roman, it was:
kuriakos hemera and DOMINICA, respectively. Both of these do NOT mean ìday of the sun.î They mean, literally, ìThe Lordís Day.î |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
Good point, Jerry.
I understand your feelings about the commercialism of Christmas, Doug, but I have to say that the whole Christmas package looks different to me now than it used to. We had a really unusual experience the Christmas of 1997 that helped me see that God is not necessarily displeased with the decorations, etc.
1997 was the year we decided we would have to leave the church. We didn't actually leave until the next year, but we were on a no-turning-back trajectory out. We were beginning to agonize about the practical implications of leaving; we didn't know whether our economic status would remain stable or not, and we thought we might find ourselves without income.
The Christmas tree we purchased (at night in the rainóoh foolish plan!) turned out to have a bent trunk, and we couldn't get it to stand up. Furthermmore, it dropped needles at an alarming rate. After an hour of struggling with that three, Richard and I were TENSE, to put it mildly. I was propping it up while Richard was applying shims under the stand whose legs were by now completely collapsed, when the thought occurred to me, "Praise God in all things."
Feeling foolish but convicted, I prayed silently, "I praise you for this stupid tree, Lord. Now will you please help it to stand up?!" You guessed itóit stood tall and stable. No amount of bumping or moving ever made it even slgihtly unstable.
By the next morning, though, I was really frustrated. That northwest fir hadn't drunk a drop of water. Trees that size usually drank nearly a whole stand full of water the first 12-15 hours when they were fresh. I called the place we bought it; they said to come get another.
We weren't able to go back for another four days. By the time we got there, they had no more trees that size. We decided to go home and camouflage our own tree's pathetic morbidity with decorations because Richard's office party was going to be at our house the next weekend.
When we got home, I walked over to the tree and looked at the stand. It was empty with only a film of water making the bottom glisten, as if it had only just completed drinking. I was in mild shock; I filled the stand, and that tree continued to drink for the rest of the Christmas season. Not only that, it smelled and felt fresh, no more needles dropped from its branches over the next week or so.
The night of the office party I was standing in front of that tree which was sparkling with white lights and bows and baby's breath, and I was overwhelmed. I looked at that tree and said under my breath, "It's a resurrection tree; it's a tree of life!" And then, just as clearly as I had "heard" the command to praise God six days earlier, I had this thought clearly in my mind, "Your bread and water will be sure."
That's when I started crying. I realized that if God could make a crooked, half-dead tree stand tall and drink, he could provided everything we needed for our uncertain future.
The other thing that overwhelmed me was that God chose to reassure us by reviving a CHRISTMAS TREE! It wasn't even as if it were a fruit tree or something that was useful or a means of provision. He did a Christmas miracle on a Christmas tree that served no purpose other than being a source of beauty and pleasure. That was the part of the message that took my breath away. God does delight in delighting us. And God also delights in beauty and joy.
God has provided for us in many ways that we could never have foreseen. I know I can continue to trust him with the future.
Colleen |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
Doug, I do understand what you are saying, but I think much of it comes from background. I was raised in a Christian home, my husband was not. Christmas has always seemed to have a much deeper meaning for me than for him. It is "pure commercialism" only if we Christians step aside and let satan claim ownership of it.
And yes, I do believe it would be as big a celebration amongst Christians even if the date was moved. There is far too much meaning in the event for Christians not to celebrate it. And it is far too valuable a teaching tool in our homes to ignore it!
Myy background is far different from those of you raised in Adventism. One of my very earliest memories was when I was about 3 years old. I have a doll in a cradle and am pretending it is baby Jesus, rocking the cradle gently and singing Away in a Manger. I can remember feeling a deep love for this most special of all babies. To an adult, that may seem off the mark, or too simplistic to be scriptural.
But you know, kids grow into a knowledge of the Lord. For a little kid I'm thinking the first proof to them that Jesus is real is that He has a birthday, just like them. And all the stuff that is happening in the church and at home at that time gets the message across that this isn't just any baby. IF the parents and church are willing to become involved in teaching.
The same is true of Easter. I always pray that those adults involved in directing kids in an easter pagent have a grasp of how enormously that can impact kids minds. It was thru participating in those that I was first struck in a powerful way by the truth of the sacrifice that Christ made for us.
It's the attitude of the people involved in the celebrating. We can either go into it with an attitude of enduring until it is over, or with the prayerful attitude of making the most of the opportunity to witness.
For instance, a Christmas card can have a picture of a kid playing in the snow, or a picture of the manger and a message about the import of the Christ child. I can be irritated by the sound of Christmas carols playing in stores, or I can offer up prayers when I am shopping that a heart that is open will suddenly be caught by the words of the songs and a life will be changed.
I just am not in favor of Christians giving satan ownership of things that were intended for good and can be used for a good purpose. |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
Lydell,
I like what you say about learning as a child the importance of Christmas and just being in an atmosphere of love and tolerence of one another was important for me.
I was also raised in a Christian home, but as I look back on it, it was more doing as the church or as my mother thought which was at times dos and don'ts. Nevertheless I have to give credit that somewhere in that all I learned to trust totally in Jesus Christ.
It was not until 4 1/4 years ago that I understood according to the Bible what in fact I was actually doing.
I would like to share something that we do at Christmas and Easter. We do the commercial things; gift giving and easter egg hunts/baskets, but we also talk about the reason we include these things and some of it is for fun and some has a lot of meaning.
This year I had our 4 oldest grandchildren write down what they remember about Christmas at Grandpa and grandma's and the 2 oldest" 8 "told of how we read the Christmas story.
AT Easter we talk of how the egg symbolizes life and that we were given eternal life from Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. Last year to show the mystery of this I marked an cross with wax on an egg for each of them. When we dipped it into the dye the cross stayed white.
Each egg was done in their favorite color because just as we are very special to God they are special to us.
You can make something good out of most anything and likewise you can be negative about most anything. I claim Ro. 8:28 All things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. I learned about that verse at the worst time in my life, the death of our daughter-in-law in Jan. 1991.
In October of that same year our son was married again to a wonderful person who always knew there was someone before her and allows us to let her memory be a very present part of our lives.
Take the things of the world and Glorify our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as Easter is coming.
Carol |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 4:16 pm: | |
One last post and I absolutely have to go and you hear this every night, don't you?
Anyway, I didn't say all that stuff about the holidays to discourage anyone from celebrating our Christian holidays in the true spirit of what our holidays are all about. There was a discussion that I had with my son just a couple of months ago when he mentioned that Santa Claus had cost him over $400. We laughed at the irony of it!!! He said "mama, ain't it funny how you work so hard all year long and put things on layaway and sneak them home and hide them, only to let some stupid fat dude in red velvet take the credit for it all?" That was what I was alluding to. Why do we do this folks? What would be the crime to honestly tell our children from the start that "Jesus is the real reason for the season" and tell them about why we exchange gifts? We give of ourselves out of love, so why threaten a kid with remarks like "Santa's watching you" or sing songs like: he sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. We should tell our kids that no one is omnipotent or omnipresent but God Almighty, and he is the one that we will have to answer to someday.
As for Easter, it just so happened that the hateful letters that I spoke about, the hurtful emails that bombarded me, were during the Easter season almost a year ago. While trying to witness to my family members, I decided to visit my local Christian bookstore and got two beautiful Easter cards and sent them to my mother and sister. I asked them how the SDAs celebrated the Easter season and all I got was the reply that they didn't want any more 'religious' literature of any kind. They didn't even thank me for the cards or other little gifts that I sent to them, I even sent my two nieces some cute little Christian books about Easter.I still wonder how the SDAs celebrate it, but according to a couple of you that posted--you only did the pagan side of Easter. I still don't understand how some people just don't get it, but we must keep our SDA friends and family in our prayers and hope that someday they will understand before it is too late. Only God knows whether my family is saved or not, and I do believe that I would be a hypocrite if I said they weren't going to heaven while, at the same time say that "once saved-always saved", seeing as how both my mother and sister were in the Baptist church when they supposedly 'got saved' in the first place. So, having said that, I will check in again tomorrow.
Good night,
Janice |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
I have come to believe that those who have heard the true gospel of Jesus Christ will possibly someday be asked the question "What did you do with my Son". I will say that I believed in Him, that He is my Saviour and that I am saved by what He did for me.
I also believe that many who have heard the truth of the gospel, but have been hardened and the veil is not removed on this earth, will at some point, and that might be as they walk thru the gate, know the right answer because they have been told.
I believe this very thing of my son-in-law that in fact He will be saved and it may be just as He walks thru the gate but it will kick in because he has been told. The sad part is that he could be enjoying the start of that eternal life here on earth if he would only submit to the truth of the gospel.
Please don't anyone think I am trying to tell you this is they way it is. This thought has just come to me over the last 6-9 months and it is my thought totally. If someone wants to tell me that there is scripture to discount this idea I would be more than glad to recieve it. I do not think of it as a pollyanna idea but rather if we have such a loving God who wants us with Him would he not do everything in His POWER to effect that,by giving those of us who want so badly for those we love to know the truth, the strength and wisdom,as I have seen from so many of you, to do exactly that?
Let us share with one another as we feel God reveals, and let us admoish in the same manner,
Carol |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 9:15 pm: | |
I want you to each get out your Bibles right now and turn to 1 Sanuel chapter 28. The title of this chapeter is: Saul Consults a Medium. In verse 11 the medium says to Saul, "Whom shall I bring up for you"? And he answers, "Samuel". When the woman saw Samuel she cried out in a loud voice, and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you decived me? You are Saul!" The king said to her, "Have no fear, what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the ground." And he said to her, "What is his apparance?" She said, "An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe. So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed his face to the ground, and did obeisance. Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" ...... and the story continues. Now, nowhere does it say in this story that the Samuel brought up by the medium was by satan or of t anything bad. In fact, this story states THAT SAMUEL WAS BROUGHT UP, it does not say the likeness of Samuel was brought up.I don't know about you all but I take this story to say that desperate people sometimes do desperate things and in a desperate situtation a medium can be gone through. Now frankly, I pray I am never in situtation where I would even consider consulting a medium but this story seems to say that out of total despertion it would be acceptable. Your comments, please. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:21 pm: | |
Susan, I have to disagree heartily. Divination and sorcery and witchraft (all related) are strictly forbidden in the Bible.
Leviticus 19:27: "Do not practice divination or sorcery."
Leviticus 20:6: "I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following themÖ"
Lev. 20:27: "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death."
In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists witchcraft among the acts springing from the sinful nature and warns that those who live "like this [indulging in the acts of the sinful nature] will not inherit the kingdom of God."
We are strictly forbidden to consult mediums, to conjure spirits, to practice witchraft, etc. When Saul consulted the witch of Endor, he was in open disobedience to God. God's people are to consult Him alone; they are never to go to Satan's servants to discover the "truth".
Praise God for the Holy Spirit who gives us the mind of Christ! (1 Cor. 2:16)
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
So if we are so forbiddeen to consult mediums when totally desperate, then how come it was o.k. for Saul to do so? Why was it o.k. for Saul and not anyone else? |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:36 pm: | |
Susan, I am not sure where you get the idea that it was okay. In fact, 1 Samuel 16:14 says:
Quote:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
Saul had long ago rejected God, and was in defiance of God. God (through Samuel)had already annointed David to succeed the throne, but in his mercy allowed Saul to continue to reign.
In His Grace
Doug |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 7:07 am: | |
The entire story of Samuel and Saul is a confusing one for me. I think I'd best keep with the n.t. I keep a bible in the glove compartment of the car and when we travel my children read the bible out loud and then we discuss what they had just read. One day my boy came across a three verse story about some fellow who was having a dspute with a big, huge, fat fellow. The first guy rams is sword into the belly of the fat man and his fat closes up around the fat man and he falls over dead. There really are some very strange stories in the o.t. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:37 am: | |
Interesting thought:
So, we know that EGW had communication with the dead, her late husband.
How does that reconcile with her belief in ìsoul sleep?î
Did he wake up unexpectedly?
Was he a ìpost-mortem insomniac?î
Is there a ìgetting ready for bedî period between death and sleep?
I donít know. Iím just ASKing. ;) |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
Great questions, Jerry! |
Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 5:17 pm: | |
I never knew that Ellen had communication with James after he died. Is that true? Wow! |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
Yes, it is true and EGW wrote about it and told people of that experience. You can go to several different websites and read the story about it. It may be on Dirk's site and it may be on Janet's site. I know I have read it and I'll tell you there is no doubt that EGW ws one spun, far-out woman. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
I didn't know under which topic to put what I want to write so I will put this under this topic because I do believe the JW religion is of the devil. So here goes; I just got off the phone with my JW sister-in-law. I phoned to tell her that her brother, my husband totaled my car by ramming into the center divider on Highway 101 over near Santa Barbara. Apparently my man is o.k. but he is in jail and I immagine will be there for quite some time. Unfortunatelly I have no transportation to go down there to visit him so we will have to keep in touch by mail. The fellow from the impound yard said he had been really messed up. I assume the fellow ment drunk but he may have ment injured as a result of the accident. But, I figure he can't be too bad off as he is in jail and not in the hospital and I sure would rather have someone I love be in jail than in a hospital. The good news is that I went stright to my insurance lady and I have complete full coverage and she assured me that I have nohing to worry about as far as the car is concerned. But, now on to what I wanted to write. I phoned my sister-in-law to let her know what is going on. She is a total spun JW. She informed me she couldn't talk very long as she had her meeting tonight. I asked her if in her religion do they pray for others. She told me they pray for others but ONLY others who are also one of Jeavoah's. They DO NOT pray for the lost (that means everyone who is not JW) except to pray that they will come to the truth of Jeavoah (the JW religion). Well, I guess I did no handle my reaction very well on the phone because she sure hussled off the phone real fast. I just gasped and said, "You guys don't pray for your loved ones? You don't pray for your neighbors? You don't pray for anyone who isn't JW except to pray that they will become JW?" And, I continued, "Oh, --- (insert her name), that is so sad. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that." Then I said, "That is AWFUL!" I was just getting ready to tell her all the texts about prayer, such as, pray for one another, pray for those who persucate you, pray for your eneminies, and on and on. I think she knew were I was going considering how appalled I was. So she told me she had to get of the phone right then and we'd talk later tonight. And, then she told me she will bring it up at her Kingdom Hall (and don't no one ever refer to a Kingdom Hall as a church) to pray that my husband sees the truth and becomes a Jeavoah Wittness. But, she added too that they will not pray for any other thing regarding his personal situtation unless he would become a JW first. Dang! It that cultic, or what? I really don't think my husband would ever consider becomming JW but he is in jail and his sister just might get some of those goofy JW's to go visit him in jail and he is very vunerable right now. Please, keep thi situtation in your prayers. BTW, it is very similiar to EGW sayingnot to pray for the ones who have unrepented sin. EGW taught that very same thing. I had no idea the JW were so horrible! They truly must be being led 100% by the devil himself. I am just realing and am totally appalled. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 8:21 pm: | |
Susan, of course we are continuing to pray for you and for your husband and your sons and also for your mother. I am sorry that your family is not able to be supportive and helpful in this circumstance, but you do have many here who WILL pray for your husband and for you.
Praise God that he puts us in each other's lives!
Colleen |
Janet (Janet)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:19 pm: | |
Yes Susan, you and your family continue to be in my prayers also. I know with myself, although I don't post daily, I keep a list of you all who have requested prayer, and am always anxious to see how God is answering...May you feel Him close tonight, as you rest in Him.
Janet |
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