| Author | Message | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I couldn't find the thread that this question was originally posted too, so I decided to create a new thread. Denise and another poster were asking what I meant by 'once saved,always saved'. I replied that churches that I had encountered that taught this said that once you were saved---you were always saved, no matter what. If you were't living according to Gods' commands, then they refer to you as 'being out of fellowship'. Anyway, the question came up of where in the New Testament does it teach that we can be lost? I would say that Hebrews 10:26,27 is a good place to start: 'For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adverseries.' Hebrews 6:4-6 says this:'For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentence, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of god and put Him to open shame.' These two texts are very clear that losing your salvation is possible, and it is a choice made by the individual. There are other texts that can be found by using cross references. One example of this happening that others can use to study from is found in 1 Tim. 1:18-20: 'This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.'. I hope this answers some questions.......... | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Where in either of those texts does it say that they were saved? Beimg enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, even being "partakers" of te Holy Spirit does not indicate that they EXCEPTED Jesus as their Lord and Savior. As Jesus said, not all who say "Lord, Lord" will see the Kingdom. So glad that I'm SAVED, and SAFE in Jesus! <>< Thomas | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I am writing with a frustrated heart. I honestly do not understand the SDA mind (never did, even as a kid growing up in it). I went to church this a.m. Then when I got out I went to visit a dear loved one and she just totally went to peices emotionally because I have turned my back "on the truth". I was asked if I ever attend church on Sabbath anymore. I said yes, that I went yesterday. I went yesterday to the local SDA church. But, I was told that didn't count because I wouldn't have gone on my own, I took someone else who is dear to me and I went in and stayed with her. Then I said yes, that whenever I'm in Southern California I attend a Lutheran church that has a Saturday afternoon service but again that doesn't count because it's not a real "Sabbath keeping" church, they just have a Saturday service for the conveinence of the members who can't make it on Sunday. Then I said yes, I frequently attend the Korean SDA church when I'm in Southern California but again that dosen't count because I'm really going to visit with my cousins and since the service is in Korean I'm obiviouselly not going to hear the word of God (I don't know the Korean language.) The person that I love so much insists I've become a "Sunday keeper" which is not the case at all. Anyway, it got really spun and I was accuseed of a lot of things that just aren't so. So, why is it so wrong to the SDA perspective to actually sit in a church service on Sunday and hear the word of God but so many of them are glued to their t.v.'s on Sunday mornings watching and listening to Mark Finely on FFT, and the SDA's I know sure like to watch that fellow from the Crystal Catheridal. Some things I just don't get. When I attended Monterey Bay Academy we kids had to go to church every Sunday evening. So, to a SDA would that be wrong that the SDA kids had to come to church on Sundays? And, what about campmeeting? They have church there like around six times every day of the week. So, if they go to church on a Tuesday at campmeeting is that somehow causing them to break the Sabbath? I just can't figure out any logic to the SDA way of thinking. Furthermore, I want to say, I was raised SDA and I NEVER could make any sense of it. As a child I would ask questions and I would be told that I was still a child but when I grew up I would understand. Well, I grew up and the older I get the less sense the SDA religion makes to me. My dear loved one began crying today because I have turned my back on God by not keeping the 4th commandment, which I say I do because I have a true Sabbath rest in my Lord and Saviour, Jesus, the Christ. Anyway, I'm on a real downer because I think I should be told by my SDA loved ones, "Oh, I'm so happy you have a wonderful group of Christians you can fellowship with and learn more of God's grace and truth". And, I know I most likely will not hear that. Whoa, I'm on a downer. Pease, lift me up in prayer, and the dear one that is so brokendearted, too, that I have turned my back on THE TRUTH. Thank-you. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
You and your friend are in my prayers. I would suggest you consider this way of thinking about what your friend said. My guess is that this outburst is out of desperation. By that, I mean that she is very concerned about you and wants desperately to help you to come back to what she sees as your only hope. Even deeper than that, she CANNOT even DARE to admit that you may have made a good choice. If she does, she must admit the possibility that she may have made a bad choice. That would destroy her religious foundation. In the world of computers, we call this ìbinary choice.î That is, she can only understand that you are either 100% wrong and she is 100% right, or vice versa. To admit that you are even slightly right is to admit she is completely wrong. Be as sympathetic as you can with her. The pain you are receiving is not nearly as much as she must be feeling. Peace and Godís Love to you both Jerry | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Are you all aware that the SDA Religious liberty festiveties are coming up soon? This apparently is a big deal with SDA's, that they get to celebrate their religious liberty. Considering what I heard today from a dear, loved one, I believe it is safe for me to conclude that at least the SDA's I know don't want to necessarilly extend religious liberty to their loved ones. I have been told al my live I should read my Bible more. So, now I am and what I read and understand is not in tune with what I was raised with. Now I'm told, "How could you ever think (insert text or chapter or passage) that is what it means"? agast! In fact, I was taught that the SDA church is the ONLY church that teaches a literal translation/understanding of the Bible So, if I quote the text that says it's o.k. to eat whatever one can purchase in a meat market well, I'm told that does not include shellfish, pork, etc., because when that text was written the meat markets did not sell any unclean meats. If I counter that with saying the Bible is written for all people throughout all generations and for sure God knew that someday al meats would be sold in the meat markets, then I'm accused of just being arguemenative and wanting to cause disent and trouble. I've decided from now on to do as it says in either one or two Timothy and that is to keep my mouth shut and listen, nod and not say much of anything. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Susan, Here is Martin Luther: Concerning Christian Liberty:: http://www.markers.com/ink/mlchrlib.htm Enjoy! Infact, print it out and leave copies laying around. I know, I know, I'm just terrible, aren't I? <grin> In Christ, your sister.........denise | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Susan, you and your loved one are in my prayers, too. I'm sure she (he?) feels out-of-control, and the emotional accusations and begging are symptoms of the fract that at some deep level she can't explain, she can't accept your decision because she herself doesn't have deep peace. I've discovered, since leaving Adventism, that the more certain I am of Jesus and of my relationship with him, the less demanding and frantic I feel about those who disagree with me. I can truly leave them in God's hands and trust him to deal with them. (I don't always do this well, but it is a reality I'm beginning to experience, praise God!) Your Adventist loved one does not have that confidence. She cannot leave you in God's hands and just love you because somehow its HER responsibility to get you on the right trackójust as it's somehow HER responsibility to be sure she herself gets into heaven. I am praying for you and for your family. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Thomas, I say this in all kindness, but you are resorting to SDA like tactics when you say 'where does it say they were saved'. It's the same as when the SDA's say 'where does it say the Sabbath was done away with'? You have to read a little between the lines sometimes. I know of no text in the Bible that says that you can be a 'partaker of the Holy Spirit' and not be a Christian. Note that in the passage you quoted from Matthew, it was the (alleged) Christians calling attention to their works. They were the ones who called themselves Christians, God never acknowledges them as such, nor as partakers of His spirit. Further, the text in Hebrews 10 would apply to either those who have accepted Christ, or those who hear and reject Him. All that is required is that someone be given the knowledge of truth and then they reject the truth. Of course, it's a little odd that given the audience the writer intended to reach was Christians, to apply this then to the unbelievers as you have done. Finally, Thomas, I don't find an example in the New Testament of being lost 'instantly'. The only examples appear to be ones of gradual, wilful insistence on turning away from the truth. How can God NOT let someone leave if they want too? Bill | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Here is a question my SDA husband asked me. Who are the sheep and the goats? I told him that I thought the goats were people who did works but were never really saved. People who didn't have faith. Is this true? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, I think Jesus had the best answer to that question. His discourse on the sheep and the goats is in Matthew 26:31-46, and it identifies the sheep as those who served "the least of these brothers of mine" and the goats as those who "did not do for one of the least of these". He says that those who cared for the brothers did so for Him, and similarly, those who did not, did not care for Him. A significant word here is "brothers". "Brothers" are the true believers who are part of God's family. This passage, however, still makes even more sense when you read it in the context of Matthew 7:15-23. Jesus is warning about false prophets who say they are Christians but inside their disguise are "ferocious wolves". The lost, he says in verse 22, will protest that they have prophesied and driven out demons in Jesus' name and performed many miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus says, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" The goats are those whom Jesus never knew. They may be professed and active "Christian", even doing supernatural things IN JESUS" NAME. That's a really important part of the equation. They claim Jesus, and they appear to have spiritual gifts. But in reality, they have not been born again. They are not intimate with Jesus. They are not one with him. They know about him, but Jesus does not know them. Jesus only knows us when he lives in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. I think this distinction between sheep and goats also helps explain (although not without leaving some questions in my mind) the issue above re: losing one's salvation. I have pondered those passages in Hebrews a lot, and I've never come up with a completely "set in cement" interpretation of them. While pondering those statements, I can't ignore Jesus' statements such as the one in John 10:27-28 where he says that his sheep will never perish; "no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." God's sheep are held in a double grip: Jesus' hand AND the Father's hand. I once asked our pastor about the issue of experiencing the Spirit but not being born again, which is the main argument against the warnings in Hebrews referring to those who are saved. He replied that there are Biblical precedents of people who exhibited the power of the Holy Spirit while not being in God's camp. He cited Balam, who was supposed to be a prophet of God but sold out to the political pressures around him, who nevertheless opened his mouth to curse Israel but found God had put the words of a blessing into his lips instead. He also cited Judas who went out with the disciples and performed miracles and cast out demons with the other 11 although his heart was unregenerate. The parable of the seeds in Matthew 13 is also somewhat instructive to me regarding this question. Those seeds that fell on rocky ground GREW. They shot up quickly and looked healthy and lush, but when things got hot, they withered and died because they had not put down roots. Also, those in the weeds grew, but they got choked to death by worldly cares. These examples suggest to me that people can intellectually assent to Jesus and even see that belief is the only way to God. They can say they commit themselves to Jesus, but inwardly they may hold back their hearts. They concsiously live like Christians and even experience the power of the Holy Spirit in some remarkable ways, but they refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to replace their natural identities with His own and to be born again. Intellectual belief is not synonymous with the new birth. Packer in his book "Keep In Step With the Spirit" also cites several biblical examples of people who exhibited spiritual gifts but had unregenerate hearts. Such a phenomenon, he says, is not uncommon. People assent to the premise of the gospel and experience benefits from adopting it, but they do not allow the Holy Spirit to make them new. Paul even made an interesting statement in Philippians 1:17. He was saying that some people preached the gospel "out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains." But then he makes a most interesting statement, "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, christ is preached. and because of this I rejoice." (v. 18) Paul, in other places, preached strongly against greed and lack of integrity, even saying the greedy will have no place in the kingdom of heaven. Yet he also says that even when Christ is preached from motives of greed or self-aggrandizement, God uses that preaching to bring people to a knowledge of Himself. The greedy preachers may be lost, but the message is still used by God. This passage fits with what Packer was saying; people with unregenerate hearts may display the gifts of the Spirit (not the fruitóthere's a big difference!). The presence of right preaching or even of spiritual gifts does not mean the preacher is truly saved. Now, please understand that I still have some questions about this issue. I don't feel that my ideas are set in stone. I'm just sharing what I've come to understand at this point. I think it's possible that the repeated warnings in Hebrews are directed toward people who have professed Christ and are functioning within the church. The problem, though, is that they are not putting down roots in the word of God and in a relationship with Christ as the parable of the seeds suggests. They are not surrendering their hearts, only their heads. Please also understand I'm not talking about a "second blessing". When we surrender our belief to Jesus and accept him into our hearts, we receive the Holy Spirit. But if we have an intellectual conviction, we may join the church but still not be regenerate. And Jesus told Nicodemus, we must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. We must be surrendered, not just convinced. At any point, however, the church can contain people of different spiritual conditions. Some are truly born again. Some profess Christ but have not relinquished their hearts to him and allowed the Spirit to indwell them. Others may be outright deceivers, pretending to be Christians but looking for a way to gain personal satisfaction or a following or prestige. Some may just be curious, coming to see what others have found and just to observe. We may never be able to tell the difference between the first two categories of people, because we cannot see their hearts. Only God can really know the difference. The one thing that might give us a hint is whether or not a person increasingly displays the fruit of the Spirit named in Galatians 5:22-23. (Notice the whole list is ONE FRUIT). That's just my thoughts on this matter right now. I'm don't pretend to think it answers all the questions that can be raised about the issue, but this understanding does help me to see that Jesus' repeated statements in John about eternal life being certain and irrevocable are true, while the warnings in Hebrews are also true. It's obvious that people who have truly accepted and surrendered to Jesus can wander away; Jesus personally goes after that lamb and rescues it. But somewhere in all of this there is the choice to put down roots, to surrender one's own interests and desires and to allow onesself to be reborn so we won't wither up when the heat comes. The Father and the Son holds those in their hands, double-gripped, and nothing can ever snatch them away. Praise God we can trust him! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
The key to understanding the passages in Hebrews 6:4-6 about falling away is found in verse 9, "But, beloved, we are CONFIDENT OF BETTER THINGS CONCERNING YOU, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner." Here the author himself notes that he is speaking in an unusual manner. His conclusion differs from those who find here a text for falling away. He concludes with a confidence of BETTER THINGS from the beloved, things that accompany salvation. The author does not say that any believer actually does fall away. In fact he says the opposite, that he is CONFIDENT they will NOT fall away. Let us list the attributes of the people the author is addressing: 1. once enlightened 2. tasted the heavenly gift 3. partakers of the Holy Spirit 4. tasted the good Word of God 5. cannot be renewed again to repentance At first glance this list certainly appears to describe true believers. However, it may also be describing church members who are not believers, people who have made a false profession of faith. All of these attributes may be possessed by non-believers. The tares who come to church every week hear the Word of God taught and preached and thus are "enlightened." They participate in all the means of grace. They join in the Lord's Supper. They partake of the Holy Spirit in the sense that they enjoy the nearness of his special immediate presence and his benefits. They have even made a kind of repentance, at least outwardly. There are three categories of people discussed here. They are (1) believers, (2) unbelievers in the church, and (3) unbelievers outside the church. But if no one falls away, why even bother to warn people against it? It seems frivolous to exhort people to avoid the impossible. Here is where we must understand the relationship of perseverance to preservation. Perseverance is both a grace and a duty. We are to strive with all our might in our spiritual walk. Humanly speaking, it is possible to fall away. Yet as we strive we are to look to God who is preserving us. Consider the analogy of the child walking with his father. It is possible that the child will let go. Even given the promise of the Father not to let go, it is still the duty of the child to hold on tightly. Therefore, the author of Hebrews warns believers against falling away. Luther called this the "evangelical use of exhortation." It reminds us of our duty to be diligent in our walk with God. Our assurance of salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. God calls us to make our election sure, to find the comfort and strength that God offers in assurance. In Romans 15 Paul declares that it is God who is the source or fountainhead of our perseverance and encouragement (v.5) and of our hope (v.13). Finding our assurance is both a duty and a privilege. No true believer ever loses his salvation. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. In His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I like to look at this iss ue this way, with an illustration I certainly don't take credit for originating. Suppose a man died of cancer, and you had the power to take care of his problem. First you would have to recognize that he hs two problems: he has cancer, and he's dead. What if you cured his cancer and nothing else? Then you would have a healthy dead man. What if you raised him from the dead and nothing else? Then he would just die again from his cancer. It does no good to cure one problem and not the other. Consider our spiritual state before our acceptance of Christ. We were dead. What killed us? SIN. Now Christ comes and dies in our place and <i>takes away</i> our sins. The sin issue between God and us is completely over. christ effectively took away the only thing that could kill us. Why? so he could give us LIFE! Our salvation takes care of man's two problems: death and the cause of death. That's why our eternal life can truly be eternal LIFE, because sin has been <i>taken away</i>. Because we've been reconciled to God through Christ, there is no sin that can effectively reverse the conversion process. If someone is not genuinely converted, they might experience the power of the Spirit at some point in their lives, but when push comes to shove, the fruits are not there. I honestly believe that our salvation is secure forever because of how God has completely finished dealing with the sin issue through Christ. That's my opinion and I would certainly respect anyone elses. Joel | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Et Al Thank you for expanding on my above post and answering the question posted. I couldn't have said it better myself. Confidence in Jesus is sweet! <>< Thomas | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
My personal experience is one of having had the knowledge of Christ, having tasted of the Spirit, then falling away for years. During this falling away time, the Holy Spirit was always there convicting, witnessing, and calling me back home. I was resistant and tried many ways to silence His voice but He simply wouldn't go away and foraske me. I finally responded at the darkest time of my life, out of desperation, and He IMMEDIATELY began setting me back on my feet again and pulling me out of my pit. I was "once saved", "fell away", and now am "always saved." I suppose I could try and run away again, but the voice would still be there I'm quite sure. I suppose that if I ran fast and far enough, perhaps the voice would honor my choice, but He didn't do that over the course of about 25 years in my own life. PRAISE GOD! Was I lost while fallen away? You'll have to ask my Saviour, I truly don't know. All I know is that He never forsook me, just like He promised the day I accepted Him as my savior in an SDA baptismal at the age of 12. | ||
| Roseheartgirl (Roseheartgirl) |
Thanks freeatlast, for sharing. Isn't it just wonderful how powerful are Lord is. He can rescue us out of the most dismal situations. Here is one of my favorite verses since childhood. Timothy 1:7: "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
To Lone Viking, I was about to sign off for the night but found your post and had to answer it. You say that Hebrews 10:26,27 is a good place to start to look for ìproofî that salvation isnít secure. Actually it is a bad place to make your argument because Paul, in writing to the Hebrews, tells them that they have heard the truth, (Paul did not say here ìfor those of you who made your salvation sure,î he went on to say that since they did not ACCEPT the atonement for their sins that the wages of death still hung over their heads. Scripture also says that for a person who knows to do right and doesnít, it is considered SIN. So, I believe that it would be a sin if I didnít try to offer you the truth of Godís word. Read the entire chapter to get the entire context of what Paul is writing. Verse 9 of the same chapter says that he taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (This is in reference to the law which was a school teacher before Godís salvation plan was revealed. You also mentioned Hebrews 6:4-6 as your argument. Again, that is a bad argument as well because Paul says here that the people were ìenlightenedî and ìtastedî the gift and partook of the Holy Spirit. No where does it say that they actually received the Holy Spirit into their hearts. Remember the word that states: Taste the Lord to see that he is good, we can all taste but tasting isnít the same as actually eating, is it? Again he is speaking of the gospel that he preached, they HEARD the gospel but did not accept it!!! Many Christians are like you in the belief that you can loose your salvation and some even suggest that this belief leads to a ìlicense to sinî. If a person really receives salvation, it is firmly established. No man can snatch us out of Godís hands. Please check out the Safe & Secure booklet and others from the Daily Bread archives. Here is the http for it once again: http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0606/ , http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/salvation.html . I believe that it would be of great benefit to you as well as a tremendous witness study for greater discussion in the forum and among legalist friends and relatives. It would also make it easier on everyone at the forum because I wouldnít write such long posts, ha, ha. I will be praying that you can come into the full assurance that you are indeed a child of God if you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior. Donít get caught up in legalism ever again. I will end with this thought. Throughout the entire book of Galatians, Paul preaches that we are to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Chapter 5 goes on to talk about that yoke of bondage as being the law. Paul also preached to the Ephesians about being saved by grace and how it is a FREE gift of God and ìnot of worksî I will beg you, in the same spirit that I did my SDA mother and sister, to study and be a workman for Christ, take the truth of salvation and pass that truth along to all you meet in life for we are none promised tomorrow. I will close my post with one last reply to you about the passage found in I Timothy, Paul was instructing Timothy to hold fast to the faith and warned him of the fate of others who had carelessly let their faith slip away (we call it back-sliding or sliding-back into the OLD mind set. Again I want you to see that they were shipwrecked in a sense, anyone who is out of Godís will is truly living a wrecked life, but once again please note that he didnít say that they had lost their salvation. They simply had lost their testimony of living a full life of trusting in the FINISHED work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So please donít be like the Thessolonian crowd who cannot endure ësoundí doctrine, donít be led away with yet another lie. Stand fast in the liberty, stand fast. Amen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Have you ever had one of those "shouting" experiences? I certainly have, and the day (which wasn't that long ago) that I understood Hebrews 10 was one of them. Please allow me to share my joy. I'll give you fair warning now. It is somewhat lengthy. All my life, I believed (was taught)that God gives us the freedom of choice, and that we can choose to be saved or choose to be lost. Almost invaribly, the text used to support this belief was Hebrews 10:26 and 27, which says:
It was only when I read the verse in context that I realized that I had been duped once again by the infamous Adventist prooftexting method. As I have since learned, "a text without context, is a pretext for a prooftext." In order to understand this passage, you have to look at the context of the chapter and the context of the book (they are consistent with each other). The book of Hebrews was written to a group of new Christians who had recently converted from Judiasm. In the face of difficult times, they were in danger of returning to the tenants of Judiasm. The writer spends the entire book telling them how much superior Jesus is to all of the things they had previously held fast to (i.e. angels. the Sabbath, Moses, the Law, the Old Covenant, etc.). It is a book of encouragement. Chapter 10 continues that theme. Watch as we walk through it. You will see how perfectly this chapter fits with that theme. 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. symbols of Judiasm, including the Law, were designed to point forward to the coming Messiah. Its kind of like having an ultrasound of a baby. Once the baby arrives, the ultrasound has served its purpose 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. To take my illustration a little further, if the ultrasound and the baby are synonymous, we don't need the baby. Let's just hold on to the ultrasound, afterall we've already developed an attachment to it. Right? Pretty absurd. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, So here was the purpose of the law and the ceremonial cleansing. It was to be a reminder--in the same way that the ultrasound of my children was a sign of things to come 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'" When Christ came into the world, he came as the fulfillment of the ultrasound system--not as a perpetuation of it 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. Christ set aside the ultrasound so that we might enjoy the reality. Remember what we said about the book of Hebrews telling us how much better Jesus is than the symbols? 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Read and re-read verse 10 until it is etched in your brain. On another thread we were talking about the gospel. SDA's tend to use Revelation 14:6, which doesn't really say anything. Someone suggested John 3:16. This could be another verse that explains the Gospel (good news)in one verse or less. Notice the words, "once and for all. That sounds final doesn't it, but let's read on 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. The old system of Law and sacrafices did nothing in reality. It was only a reminder of what was to occur later 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. By "this priest," of course we are talking about Jesus. Notice again that he said he says that he offered for "all time" "one" sacrifice for sins. He did not say he offered sacrifices for sin only up to the time that we accept Christ. All time sounds like eternity to me. Then, notice what he does. He sits down! Everything is accomplished. It is finished! 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. He has (past tense) made perfect forever those who are being (present tense) made Holy. In the meantime, he waits. Once again, a passive posture. It is finished! 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." Can you say HALLELUJAH (even if I can't spell it). Verse 17 is another verse to etch in your mind. My sins and lawless acts will he remember no more--past present, and future! 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. If I have been forgive, I don't need to be looking for any additional sacrifice 19Therefore, [Whenever you see the word therefore, you have to connect it to what just preceeded. So, in light of the fact that my sins (past, present, and future, are forgotten..]brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, Hot dog! I'm getting excited just typing this. He says, in light of this once and for all sacrifice, I should draw near in FULL ASSURANCE!!! having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. These are some strong word. He says hold on unswervingly--in other words don't let anyone redirect your path--to the hope we profess. God said it, I believe, it, and that settles it for me. Its funny how I never heard that expression used in reference to my salvation. It was always used in reference to the Sabbath 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Let us support each other in this knowledge. When we see a brother or sister wavering, we need to encourage him or her. That's why we assemble together. 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Now here is where the proof text comes in. Take out of context, it says just what it is routinely misquoted as saying. Taken in context, you see that the sin he is referring to is to let go of our hope. I'll demonstrate why that can be the only interpretation in a moment. NOTE: Recall a few weeks ago, I wrote something that defined sin as not the things we do, but "unbelief." This text helped me arrive at the conclusion. 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. The only thing that can remain for someone that rejects the free gift that has been described thus far is a fearful expectation of judgement. Why? Because in verse 1-2 he already said that the old covenant system could not make ANYONE clean, so if I hold on to it after Messiah comes, the only thing left is for me to bear the penalty of my own sins. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Notice how he has gone back to talking about the old covenant? The only way to make verse 26 talk about losing our salvation is to insert a totally unrelated interpretation into an otherwise unbroken chain of thought. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? The person who rejected the law of Moses (which was only a shadow of things to come) was deemed worthy of death, without mercy. How much more severely should the person who rejects the reality--the real thing be treated. In other words, the person who tears up the picture of a ultrasound is deemed a lowlife. How much worse should the person who commits infantacide be treated? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes, it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The only person who needs to worry about that is the person who rejects his sacrifice and decides to earn it through his own merits 32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Remember the context of the book. The writer is calling them to remember their conversion from Judiasm to Christianity 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. An acknowledgement of the persecution they are suffering. His word of counsel, "don't throw away your confidence [in the completeness of the sacrifice] 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. And what is the will of God? That we believe in His Son! 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. In case there is any doubt, look at his comparison of those who God is displeased with and those who are saved. Those who he is displeased with shrink back from the belief in the promise, while those who believe (and nothing else) are saved So, is it possible to lose your salvation? Sure! The way to lose your salvation is to look Jesus in the eye and with full knowledge say, "I understand the gift of salvation. Thanks, but no thanks. Now you tell me anyone who would be so foolish! It has NOTHING to do with my behavior. Sorry for the long post In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I after looking at hte conclusion to my above post, I think it may be misleading. The only way to lose my salvation is to, like Cain (with full knowledge), choose another means of salvation than that ordained by God. In other words, to choose works over a gift. Only a lunatic would make that choice. I'm sure some have done it, but I suspect most people who "think" they walked away from their salvation never understood it in the first place (which sadly may include many professed Christians). I praise God that he winks at our ignorance. What an AWESOME GOD we serve. Doug | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I'm not sure if it is in Hebrews but it is in Paul's writings where he is speaking about the Greeks (Gentiles) and he says they have never known the law, but now they have the truth of Jesus. These Greeks he (Paul) is speaking about had never kept Sabbath in their lives, they'd grown up eating any meat they wanted and they most certanily had not been circumsised, let alone observing the rest of the laws that God had given to the Jews. But, the law of Jesus they knew. These are such things that al humanity just seems to know by the fact that they exist, such as not to kill another person, not to steal and not to commit adultry, etc. It is not in our existance by us just being that we just know that Saturday is to be observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Do I make sense? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, Susan 2, you make perfect sense. Doug, I sense you may have an appreciation of Hebrews similar to mine. What a MONSTER thesis. Yet, what a PERFECT MINEFIELD if you do not consider the topic from start to finish. As you indicated: One MUST NOT, CAN NOT, (I say again) DARE NOT pick a sentence here or a phrase there and do the book any justice. The WHOLE BOOK is ONE complete thought explored in detail. I was recently told by an Adventist that Hebrews is so messed up, does not make any sense, is a jumble of disjointed, exagerated theology. HAH! Not the least bit confusing to most people who take their time reading it and are focused on "Christ, and him crucified." |
