| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I remember once many years ago being with numerous SDA's as well as some other Sabbathtarians (Church of God, Seventh-day) relatives and they were discussing Paul's writings. The big pondering of that conversation was if Paul's writings should even have been included in the Bible and if the writings of Paul were even truely inspired by God. They wondered this because his (Paul) writings are so different from the rest of the Bible, i.e.: the rules as set down by the O.T. They all ended the conversation that they'd best be on the safe side of things if they wanted to be in the New Earth (my SDA kin don't believe in any heaven after the 2nd coming of Jesus) and so they all decided they would stick with the rules of the O.T. and not pay much attention to Paul. They just don't trust Paul. I always have been drawn to the writings of Paul. In Monterey Bay Academy in our Indoctrination Class (AKS: Bible Class) our textbooks were The Desire ofd Ages and The Bible. Our teacher would teach us something from the DoA and I would read to him and the class the oppositrefrom the Bible. Finilly the teacher told me that since I liked reading the Bible s much I could spend the rest of the semester studying just the Bible and he put my dest outside the classroom in the hall and while the rest of the class had their Indroctination Class I got the best deal, sitting in the hall at my dest studying the Bible by myself. I ended up getting a "D" on my report card but it didn't matter because I went back to public school and that class didn't count on my transfer anyway. What a crack-up. What memories! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Susan, I think you are referring to Romans Chapter 1. This is another great treatise. In it Paul, like a skilled attorney, is laying an inpenetrable argument for the Gospel. Not surprisingly, many proof texts are also taken from this book to support points that are pure legalism (i.e. Romans 2:12,13) which says:
This was part of the gobblygook that kept me away from books like Romans and Hebrews during my life as an Adventist (now they are my favorite books). There was so much doublespeak. On one hand, we would say we were saved by grace, then you would throw in Romans 2:13 as a defense for the importance of the law, which on the surface sounds like we're saved by works. HINT: You have to read Romans 1,2, and 3 to get the context so you can understand those two verses. Its not very flattering toward law keepers I assure you. That's why it upsets me when I see people like the guy on the "call them back" website that suggest that people are leaving because they do not agree with the Adventist position on alcohol or its interpretation of the seven trumpets. Let's try some more fundamental issues like, "how is a person saved." Unfortunately, the church isn't willing to address such mundane issues. I think the SDA leadership should pay heed to Jesus' counsel in Matthew 23:13:
Okay, maybe I am still a little angry (the other day, I said I was beyond it). I'm going to bed now. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I just read my previous post. I had The Desire of Ages abriviated DOA. DOA also stands for Dead On Arrival. Interesting comparison. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, that is awesome! Thank you for sharing it. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Janice, I'm sort of pressed for time this evening, but let me address a couple of things you said in your post back to me. You came back with this argument that 'they tasted, were enlightened and partook of the Holy Spirit----but that doesn't mean that tasting is eating, and that therefore they didn't accept Christ.'. Janice, that is a circular and self serving argument that just won't work. I'll give you another argument that is exactly the same and makes just about as much sense. On other forums, I and other fomers have been accused of not being formers! Why? Because we must have never been SDA's or we would never have left, because once someone becomes truly SDA they never leave. This is just so much nonsense as I was once as SDA as they are! The Greek for 'Taste' is 'geuomai',(Strongs 1089) with a definition of 'to taste, by implication to eat. The Greek for 'enlightened' is 'photizo' (Strongs 5461) which means 'to brighten, to make to see'. The Greek for 'partake' is 'metochos' (Strongs 3353, which means 'a sharer, by implication an associate, partner'. Janice,the Holy Spirit cannot be a sharer with folks who haven't accepted Him. You can't 'eat' without ingesting, you can't be 'enlightened' without being converted. The Bible says that the spiritual things are foolishness to the unregenerate soul. The reason I'm coming back so hard at this is that what you are promoting leads straight to a couple of heresies prevelent in SDA'ism today. The first is that God is such a good and loving God that he won't punish anybody. Wrong, wrong, wrong. He will, and all who aren't seeking to daily allow Him to do His work in them will be lost. Notice, I am not saying that if you slip once and sin---then that's it. Nope, as I heard it put once (Morrie Venden, I think) it's as if you dropped the soap in the shower----you just bend down, pick it up and go on. But, if you get mad and throw the soap out the shower---you won't get any cleaner! This leads to another heresy, similar to the first, that God is such a good merciful God that He would never create an eternal Hell. Look, either you accept the Bible the way it's written (and it says 'e t e r n a l')---or you might as well throw it out the window and live as you want too. A third error is preached in a churh not too far from me and that is that all mankind is born 'saved' and decides to be lost. So, if you want to throw out the clear implication, be my guest, but I had more than my share of the SDA church telling me that the Bible couldn't be read the way it is written. I do believe that one can be assured of their salvation. I do believe that one can lose their salvation, as Doug put it 'I understand the gift of Salvation, thanks but no thanks!'. As Doug noted, only a lunatic would do this, but there are several of these nuts recorded in the New Testament. Between these two extremes is a somewhat grayer area consisting of issues such as 'when do we cross over and leave for good', 'does God ever give up on us ('probably not' seems to be the answer) and other questions. Anyway, I see this as one of those areas much like pre-destination and free-will. How can these two, diametrically opposed ideas co-exist? I don't know but they do! I see the Bible teaching both the idea that one can have assurance of salvation, but that one can also be assured that they have been lost through wilful continual sin. Bill.............. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Bill, Not to belabor the point, but if one can be asured of their salvation, wouldn't that then by definition negate "gray area?" Just asking. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Bill, Too many books have been written that clearly define scripture in its context and make full use of the concordances and other study aids to "clear-up" misleading arguments without this old ignorant woman trying to expound on the gospel, but then again, I wonder if it is my lack of expression and clarity that alludes you or is it a "hindering spirit" that seems to be so prevalent in these last days mentioned in scripture? II Timothy 3:7 states--Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? If God says that we can know the truth and the truth will set us free, then my question is this: why are you so determined to rob people of the liberty that they stand firmly for yet, in the same breath, state that you believe that we can know for sure about our salvation? I echo the sentiment of Doug, isn't this 'kind of gray?' I believe you can find in James 1:8 that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. What we all need is the stability and peace that only the Holy Spirit can impart. You can either accept the truth of eternal security or reject it, not even God can force you to accept it because he made us all free moral agents, and we all choose for ourselves what we believe in. Are you afraid that this simplicity of the gospel appears too misleading or "too good to be true" or do you feel that I am honestly being mislead by an evil spirit? What does the Bible say? Hasn't everyone at the forum rang it out over and over in practically every post that we are clearly told to try the spirit to see if it is of God, are we not? And how do we try or test? If it doesn't line up with God's word then we are to ignore it, my challenge to you is this: Go to the web site and read the expounding of the gospel of eternal security in Christ and let God show it to you himself as only he can. I sense Satan hindering every truth that I have tried to win over to the people in this forum, and it has worn me out to the point of saying I quit. I have done all I know to do and the rest is up to God alone for only he knows our hearts intentions, whether they are motivated by love or by pride. Study to show thyself approved and prove me wrong for "I" can be proven wrong, but I agree with the scripture found in Romans 3:4 which states-- God forbid; yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in they sayings and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Even in John 10:28-29, Jesus is speaking and says I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.. Use that concordance to do a study of this verse. On and on God tells us saved ones that we are to standfast in our liberty (Please don't call it license to sin--when you do that, you put words in my mouth) I will be praying that you will go to the resources that I mentioned in my post, but the choice is always yours. I can't make you believe it any more than I could make my former fiance believe it. He got a new version of the Bible, not the KJV and convinced himself (as you obviously have as well) that a person can lose their salvation. Instead of reading clear texts, he chose to take obscure text totally out of context to try to prove he was right and I was wrong.I eventually got tired of trying to make him see that I would not allow him to rob me of the joy of my salvation and decided that this fell under the rule of being 'unequally yoked' and cancelled the engagement but I sent him a book similar to the one that I keep mentioning about eternal security and eventually he accepted God's words as truth. He sent me a letter several months later to apologize for ruining such a good relationship that he knew would have been a strong one had he only chosen to swallow his pride and humble himself to God's spirit that eventually did show him the truth. He now believes in his eternal security but it was too late for us to be together as a couple. I am not suggesting that he missed a good thing when he lost me, I am simply saying that if we can't be of one accord that we will never get along, too many young married couples will leave a church entirely if they can't build on a common faith and belief system together. This leaves me so confused on your belief that salvation once obtained (as a free gift) can be lost because when God says that he indeed gives us his words of the New Testament so that we can indeed know our salvation (you agree on that) so, I am just as confused as ever with your attack and it appears that others are confused as well, Doug seems to be wondering about where you are going with the topic too in light of your statements. Why would anyone not want to grab hold of the truth of eternal security found repeatedly over and over again in the scriptures? It is of no man's 'private intrepretation' but rather he admonishes us to come to him and ask for wisdom. I don't know how old you are in physical terms or in spiritual terms, but the word says that age begets wisdom and also teaches in James 1 that if we lack wisdom that we should ask God for wisdom. Do you want wisdom? If so, it takes more than mere studies of the Greek and Hebrew words in scripture to gain wisdom, I will restate what I posted last week. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I Corinthians 2:14. Also, I found in the old testament this verse: For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king. I Samuel 15:23 I welcomed arguments for a long time because it challenged me to search in God's word to find truth, however, in my state of impatience I forget to remember that I am suppose to do the following: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them....the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. II Timothy 3:14-17 Having said all of that, take it for what you will. I can't say anything more than what has been said. As free agents, we have a choice. Are you sure about the salvation plan? God bless all of you who have opened your hearts at the forum and again I apologize to all of you for any hurtful words that got misunderstood in the lines of text, Satan does have a way to confuse us and divide and conquer has always been his stratedy. Keep your faith and don't let anyone try to put out your candle, and don't hide it either, let it shine forth like a beacon in the night. God love you for the knowledge that I gleaned here. Forever your sister in Christ Janice | ||
| James_Jean (James_Jean) |
Janice: I am also one of those who believe you can be assured of your salvation. That's as long as I trust in the finished work of Christ. God does not give abortions, but I can commit suicide by stepping out of the the hands of a loving God. If that is not so than I am no longer a free moral agent. To imply that any one who disagrees with you is hindered by Satan or is in rebellion or being stubborn is a little judgmental on your part. You bring your Baptist view to the discussion and that's alright. But it is very hard to enter into a discussion on any subject when we use harsh words like the one's I have been reading. Then to use them then apologize at the end is not very helpful. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Everyone who believes they are saved is obviously not. Consider the parable of the soils: Some are sown and others are not. IMO if a person is not fully surrendered to Christ they are "playing church" and have no true conviction. That has nothing to do with being perfect or even being good, just being willing to be used by Christ. Jesus said, "My sheep know My voice and no other will they follow" So how can they be lost? If they are following the shepard they can't! Baptists don't teach that everyone who says the sinner's prayer is saved, just that when a person is truly saved they will not be lost. Who in the bible was saved and lost? No one that I can think of. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
This has been an interesting conversation for me to follow. I'll ustsay this: when the minister reads the passage where Jesus tells his deciples to go forth teaching, baptizing and fogiving sins an then the minister says, "In the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spitit, I now ponounce you forgiven of all your sin", well, let me tell you ths, Oh, I just feel such relief and a true peace comes ver me. That has to truely be the best part of the weekly service. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Thank you Sabra, This paragraph is for you and not directed at the forum. Thank you for your information that you sent to me this morning in an e-mail, I hope you get my reply because something happened to the other e-mail you sent to me while I was copying the first one I had opened. I was going to forward the first e-mail the same way and when I went back to Outlook--that letter was gone, vanished, no inbox, no outbox, no sent, no detete, no nothing. Boy can the devil hide truth or what? I did get to read the second e-mail though and was fascinated of the latest breaking events in Israel. I guess I need to get my Jack Van Impe magazine out and read up on these things because the last time I heard about the heirford cow study was when I read that they were doing DNA studies on some ashes. I think it is great to hear that the sacrificial calf is alive and well and without blemish. (Let God's word be true and ALL men liars)I especially liked the Bible scripture in red at the bottom of my e-mail. Praise God and please send the studies again if you don't mind because I really want to catch up on that information. I can't even find your address to ask you for them again. Sorry about that. Also, I would like to thank you good people for the positive input at the forum, I am glad that I can say that I understand every word that Sabra is saying about salvation and will stand by her in prayer and support, I need to be careful in the way I speak out to those who are trying to help me and pray for wisdom before ever attempting to say anything else openly here. I don't believe that I have been judgmental or harsh (I don't have a gift of tact in many areas but do have truth and only wanted to share.) I simply asked in what spirit the scriptures I quoted were taken, I just wanted to share my peace of an eternal security and yes, I fully understand the parable of the sower and am glad that Sabra brought it up. Many people joyfully sit in a sanctuary and hear the word preached and they respond with tears and are "under a conviction" of sorts but that doesn't mean that they ever fully accepted the simplicity of the gospel or heard the FULL gospel or asked God to come into their hearts. Remember that story about the man that Jesus cast the devils out of: He had a demon that troubled him and Jesus made the demon leave, as the story goes, the demon left and looked for another home and in finding none, came by to check the vacated home, well, the house had been cleaned but it was EMPTY (no spiritual truth searched for, no Christian growth)and in seeing the emptiness, the demon went out and brought home seven buddies that took up housekeeping in the empty house and the man was seven times worse than he was before. How many come and hear the gospel but don't know to feed on the word and grow and fill their hearts up with the love of Jesus? It reminds me of an e-mail that went like this: Next time the devil comes knocking, just say "Jesus, will you get the door please?" We need to quit answering every knock that we hear at our heart's door because all it does is grieve our souls. Just these few words spoken in judgment have done so much damage that I repent having ever given out the word to those of you who asked for a discussion in the first place. Many have heard John 3:16 and were HAPPY to hear the good news but few are told about what Jesus had to say to a "religious" leader of the community that felt he had to sneak around in the dark so no one would see him questioning Jesus on the subject of salvation. His curiosity led him to seek a greater understanding aside from his "religious" upbringing and Jesus (knowing his heart) expounded on the gospel in the same way that we are attempting to do in the forum and what did Jesus tell Nicodemus? He plainly told him that "you must be born-again!!! Few fully understand the simple statement here in the scripture. He goes on to explain that unless you are baptised with water and the word that you won't "understand" what he is saying. If you do a study on that phrase word for word, you will discover that the water is more than mere water (or water baptism as Church of Christ teach) but it means that we are to be washed in the living water, the living water is Jesus (the conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well) if we get into a Bible study as a saved and indwelt with the spirit Christian, we have the peace in knowing that all we have to do is ask and it shall be given to us. If you won't go to the web sites that I keep suggesting then at least read these few verses: Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall tell every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a REWARD. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.... Let no man deceive himself, If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this WORLD (Human reasoning)let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.....The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore, let no man glory in men. For ALL things are yours (Jesus'). I Corinthians 3:13-21 If I waited on understanding with these words, then it would not be FAITH. I accept it and try to pass it on. That is it plain and simple. For those who have jumped on the band wagon in an attack on my motives I will simply say that I have asked God to help me to understand the gospel of grace and he gave me wisdom liberally, I have tried to share that wisdom and am getting attacked as being judgmental, I make no apologizes for anything that I have quoted directly from the word of God and again I ask by what spirit are you being led when you choose to attack me? God's word says "come, let us reason together" It doesn't say to be unreasonable and hateful. All I did was ask the question about what spirit was behind the assault. Is it the spirit of love and a desire for understanding or is this forum just intended to lure people, like me, in to have someone to chop to pieces when they try to offer a bit of wisdom. Afterall, everything that I have said was in reply to someone's having said "what do you think" or "do you have any information on this" and this is confusing and God is certainly not the author of it, so, I will claim Proverbs 17:28 and will go to my local church of fellow believers and sing and praise God almighty for my assured salvation and while I am at the altar I will be praying that God gives you the knowledge of his peace and love that can only be found by earnesting DESIRING the SINCERE milk of God's word so that you can be able to grow. Nothing more is to be said here, I have said my peace. Janice | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Janice, were you raisaed SDA? If ot, have you evr been SDA? Are you now fellowshipping with a Baptist congreation? I attended the Seventh-day Baptist reguraly for any years.They are part of the American Baptist Convention, a totally different group than the Southeran Baptist. I attended the local SDA with my mom earlier today. It was the nicest service I have been to there since I've been taking my mother on Saturdays. Only heard, "Happy Sabbath" twice and there was no sermon at all. It was only music y a slew of youngsters on a musical tur who attend Monterey Bay Academy (where I went). The potluck was awsome, I totally vegged-out. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Susan, In answer to your question, no I am not nor ever have been an SDA and never will, praise God, because I sought the truth and it set me free before a cult could snatch me up in a moment of weakness, and I have been studying my Bible ever since my sister converted to the SDAs over 20 years ago. I was born in 1951 to unsaved parents, my mother was raised in a Methodist belief and my daddy was raised as a Baptist. When I was seven, my mother got saved in a Baptist church and nine months later, I saw my daddy saved and baptised as well. So, my family was raised with Baptist doctrine. My entire family eventually got saved under Baptist preaching but for one reason or another we never had a strong Christian home. Daddy had a temper and mama was scared of her shadow which made for an unhappy childhood, but at least I was being taken to church on a fairly regular basis. I was saved and joined our church during the summer of '63 during the week of our Vacation Bible School and was baptised a few weeks later. I am the oldest of three girls and guess that is why I always seem so over-bearing to my sisters. When I had children of my own, since my husband and I were both Baptist, we naturally took our boys to a Baptist Church. My sister married an abusive man and since she had moved away at her preacher's suggestion so that the inlaws couldn't interview, none of us were aware of the abuse until after their divorce. As a divorced woman with no family living near by, several SDA members began to coax my sister into attending a SDA revelation seminar and at that point, she was completely taken in by the movement with all their hipe. I was studying my Bible and was into last day prophecy studies of my own when I was told that EGW was a true prophetess that had been sent to the SDA church. She eventually, down through the years, wrote many books and newsletter full of lies and deceit. She told that God had revealed the truth about the Catholic lie in a vision and that the entire Christian world had swallowed this lie, well, down through the church age, EGW's books and the booklets and pamphlets were printed by the thousands and flooded both my and my mother's mailbox until mama told my sister that she was tired of how the SDA had brainwashed her and asked that she stop bothering everyone with the propaganda that she sent us. She did quit sending us literature but never gave up on winning us over, and when my mother became disillusioned with a preacher from a Sabbath keeping Baptist Church then my sister pulled out the stops and lured my mother in, this time she bought all the sweet lies and has been trying to live that wholesome, denying, self-sacrificing lifestyle ever since. At least my mother isn't as pushy as my sister, but she took great offense when I tried to show her some things that God had shown me in scripture. I am not permitted to send any religious literature of any kind to either of them now. My mother stays in touch and tells me that she loves me but it is a broken fellowship with us now that we can't talk about what the Lord has done for us by sending his son to die for us at Calvary, and if church is even mentioned, it is a bunch of small talk, you know things like: I am teaching in Sabbath School now and really enjoy the children, they are so excited when I read them Bible stories, or she will mention her volunteer work at the clothing store for the SDAs, but my sister says that she is never going to talk to me again because I always twist what she says around and put words in her mouth. I don't put words in a person's mouth when I get an e-mail that tells me that I need to have some professional counseling to help me deal with my problem, and asked why I always feel like I have to witness to her when she has no need of it. Sorry, but if you want to believe that the atoning work of Jesus is not finished and if the SDA want to believe that Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary doing an Investigative Judgment then I have to stop, leave it alone, and say I tried. That was what I have tried to do with my family now for going on 20 years and have been told by my church family that they would pray with me that I could reach them with the truth, but so far, I get resistance on every side. I came to this forum to honestly learn what those lies to the SDAs actually were and this forum is a great resource for that, but since I am meeting so much resistance from those who read my post, I have decided to sit on the side lines for a while and observe, instead of trying to witness, since the devil is turning every thing that I say into some kind of heated debate. I did not come here to fight but we are all called to defend the faith while at the same time we should not worry about what we are going to say, just be an open vessel for God to use. So I just thought I would answer your question and now I will back out once again and say thanks for your message. Janice | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Yours is an interesting story. There are three denominations that I know of who rather that following the Great Commission of teaching the Gosple to the unChristian of the world rather focus their energies on recruiting members from Other Christian faiths. Those three are the SDA, the JW, and the LDS. All three have a history going back to the same general area of the United States and during the same general time period. You can read a lot of similiarties of these three denominations on Dirk's website. My parents were both raised SDA. And, have stayed SDA except that they were disffelowshipped in the late 1940's and have never had their names put back on the church roster. Dispite having had their names removed they have stayed loyal to the SDA church. There is so much complex paranoia in SDA'ism that I would hardly know where to begin if I had to explain the church's teachings to someone. I probably say that the church would have to close up if it was to change its official teaching of the Catholic church. That, more than any other teaching of Adventism is at its core I think even more than Sabbath, clean/unclean meats/dancing/jewlery/seperation of church of state/being not quite but almost pro-abortion/everything ele. Because all of the SDA's teachings about the IJ, an everything else goes back somewhere in the SDA history about the Catholic church changing the truth of how it really should be. Fortunatelly, in SDA logic, foprtunatelly along came Willard Miller and Egnog White to bring Chritianity back to the truth that was lost to the masses for nearly 2000 years. Whatever.... Needless to say, it's been a trying experience for me now that my closest family member (my mother) has learned that I not only attend the Lutheran church but, gasp!, faint!, get an anxiety attack!, I actually JOINED the Ltheran church. Well, what can I say except, this too will pass. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Janice, I understand totally where you are at myself not being an Adventist. It is very hard for me to understand what a person is to do. We are admonished by the Word of God to instruct according to Gal. 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. I like Janice will not stop telling those who believe that Jesus + something is the way to salvation is a fault. If there seems to be arrogance in that statement then so be it, because it is an arrogance for My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is not of what I am doing that I speak it is because of what He did. Maybe we are not understanding the meaning of being saved. What are we saved from? I am saved from the penalty(DEATH) of sin, thus allowing me eternal life. The sin issue had to be taken care of and it was by the sacrifice of God's son(the perfect lamb of God). But don't stop there because as 1 Co. 15:19 says If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. It'not about our sins forgiven only, it's about our sins forgiven so we can have the gift of eternal life. If I cannot say that I am saved and will be forever then I am not reading the truth of the Bible but rather am leaning to someone else's interpretation. Because like I have said before Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible to restore or bring back again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift, and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and the world to come, if they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance;(it is impossilbe) to bring them back to repentance,for(because ,while , as long as) they nail up on the cross the Son of God afresh, as far as they are concerned,and are holding (Him) up to contempt and shame and public disgrace. The Amplified Bible Please no remarks about the Bible translation, it is one that was a discard where I work and it just happened to be at my computer which is in the basement and I used it. Like I said before you can't come back from where you haven't been. So if you tell me that you can lose your salvation I would have to say you've never been there because if you have been in a place that is perfection then why? would you want to go back. Thru all my trials I have never once wanted to say Oh if I never would have known this joy I would never have had these trials. Quite the contrary I say Praise God for the trials since because of them I know I am saved because of the Holy Spirit living in me, and again I will say that spirit was left for me and you at Pentecost,just recieve it and rest in it. I welcome any comments because when the comments stop and you are not sure in your mind then learning stops. Stay with me Janice, I need you, Carol | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
WOW,what a debate!!It is all pretty much over my head,but when I saw this thread,I had a question/comment.Okay,years ago I went to church,thought I was 'living right'well something happened in my life that I thought God just couldn't forgive me for or that I had done something that a REAL Christian wouldn't do.Anyway I turned to my old ways,and tried to forget about doing what I knew to be right.All the while I always felt Gods presence,I always knew that I would come back to him oneday,but worried if it would be too late.So, are some of you saying that I was saved all the while?Another question,my husband is in the construction bussiness so you can imagine the talk and foolishness that goes on.Anyway there is this guy that is always talking about the Lord and relly knows the Bible.But...he cusses,smokes pot,and drinks on occation and argues with my husband that he is going to heaven because 'once saved alwayes saved'.Well my husband is still in denial, believing the EGW way so he is constantly rebuking him.When I was adventist,I felt the same way as my husband,but now I think it is more like Jerry is judging him instead of rebuking him,because I know how adventist really do judge without calling it 'judging'.So now I just try to tell Jerry that is between that guy and God.But you know all the arguements that come with saying that so I was wonding what you guys thought about it. God Bless and please pray for my husband to see the REAL truth!! Angie | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Doug, Thanks for quoting the excellent adage in your January 30 post, "A text without context, is a pretext for a prooftext." As former Adventists, this aphorism has a very special significance. Here is another brain-teaser or snackbar for the soul: "The real measure of our wealth is how much we'd be worth if we lost all our money." --J. H. Jowett Some readers, with declining stock values, may find solace in this maxim. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Angie, You will hear different answers to your question. Ultimately, you will have to decide what you believe. As I recall, you said that you had just recently left Adventism. May I suggest that you take an hour or so and read the book of Galatians through in one sitting (in a modern translation, i.e. the NIV). It's only six short chapters. Take your time and read it as many times as you need. As you study prayerfully, I am confident that you will find the answer to your question. Allow me to give a "sound bite," found in chapter 3:
If you're saved by faith, then how can anything that you do cause you to lose your salvation? If it did, wouldn't your salvation be based on works? Just a thought? May God bless you as you uncover the beauty of His wonderful gift. I, for one, would love to hear your reaction to Galatians and think it would be an encouragement to others here too. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree with Doug, Angie. Read Galatians; in fact, sometimes I recommend that a person read it every day for a month. It's only six chapters, but it's life-changing. The fact that you sensed God with you during your years of wandering confirms his parable of the shepherd who goes after the lost lamb. The shepherd doesn't go after sheep that are not his; he goes after his own. And Jesus said his sheep hear and know his voice. I'm convinced that God doesn't require us to figure our who is truly saved in their hearts; He knows. He also knows who is really His even before they know. We can trust him even with this question! Praise God for saving us! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
This is interesting. I don't know where my understanding of what I'm about to write came from but I assume it somehow came from my schooling in SDA private schools growing up. I had been led to believe (but never did believe it) that God looks on those who are ignorant of His lws differwenty than those who have been taught "the truth". Like, if some ignorant Sunday-keeping Christians never learns the truth of the Sabbath, well, then he's o.k. with God but once he learns the truth then he'd best head it or he's a gonner come his name during the Investigtive Judgement. The same holds true for all the poor heathens out there who have never even heard of Jesus, let alone of Sabbath observance. As long as they are in a state of ignorance than their salvation is covered but one they learn the SDA truth then they are bound at their judgement to being faithful SDA's. I alwas wondered then how come the SDA's want everyone to become SDA. Wouldn't it be a lot nicer of them to just let everyone stay ignorant so they could go to heaven then telling them "the truth" and setting them up for failure and eternal doom? |
