| Author | Message | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I am "newly out" of the adventist beliefs.I was just wondering what you guys consider spiritualism?Before,I wouldn't even consider watching shows on TV like that show Beyond.But now, I am confused about the state of the dead,and I wonder if there is ANY truth at all in those people that say they can talk to the ones who have "crossed over",AND,where have they "crossed over" to?? [Just ONE of my many questions I have for you guys]Really great web-site!!Look forward to conversing with all of you!! God Bless! Angie | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Angie, I struggled similarly after Jesus broke into the prison that was my ingrained SDA-EGW thought pattern and set me free. If I watched the show "Bewitched", I was risking possession. If I read any fiction, God might take truth away from me. If I listened to a Journey album I was worshipping and exposing myself to an ancient Egyptian demon because this particular band had paintings of scarab beetles on their album covers (I think scarabs were one of the Egyptian gods). These kind of thougts constantly confronted me in my daily walk with Jesus. By focusing on Scripture alone and talking everything out with the Holy Spirit, I have come to understand better the meaning of the Scripture telling us to "test all things, hold to that which is good.". Now, if I know something is offensive, obscene, or otherwise clearly not pleasing to God, I should have no place for it in my walk. On the other hand, there is much philosophy, art, literature, music, and wisdom out there that is genuinely GOOD that I was kept very sheltered from. I have learned more about European history and Christian church history in Rome during a month in a lower-division Philosophy class in a community college than I did during my entire SDA education (all the way thru high school). Likewise my appreciation of - and benefit from - classic literature, music, film, the arts, etc. has been greatly stunted. I am finding that I have alot more liberty in Christ than I ever thought I did and I'll never give it to any person or any church again EXCEPT Christ. I must be careful not to use my liberty as license, of course, and I referred earlier to taking care not to willfully expose myself to known or honestly suspected evil. No wiser man than Solomon himself told his son that gathering wisdom and knowledge are more desirable than gold or silver, but to go about achieving that with the heart always towards God. He definitely wasn't talking about reading scripture exclusively for that wisdom and knowledge. Check out Ecclesiastes some lazy afternoon. I have come to find that there are 3 kinds of things: Those that are sacred, those that are secular, and those that are evil. True knowledge and wisdom exists only in the first two. All I know is that the only thing off-limits to Christians is that which is evil and corruptible. We are told to be IN this world, but not OF this world. And we're not supposed to judge each other's secular choices, those are between me and God. I love the way Hank Hanegraaf expresses it, "On critical things, unity, on non-critical things, liberty, and in all things, charity." Or something like that ;>) I wish I had learned this when I was younger, it would have saved me much guilt and shame and I would be alot wiser for it. God Bless you, Angie, welcome! | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Scripture clearly condemns the practice of talking to the dead. Trust that Bible, Angie. As for me, I'd redcommend that you "cross over" channel 9 when that slime is on the telly :>) | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Angie, People that tell you to beware of spiritualism (speaking with the dead, channeling, spirit guides, visioning, etc.) when embracing the biblical concept of human dualism (consisting of two separate entities; namely, body and soul)are really uninformed and/or deceptive. The traditional or biblical view of death leaves no doubt that "crossing over" is IMPOSSIBLE. This frightening deception, about becoming spiritualists when believing in a soul and body, was taught and promoted by Ellen White and her associates as a gospel of fear to keep the deceived faithful. Let's be fair, honest, and objective about this whole matter. My many Christians friends, in my church that teaches the immortality of the soul, do NOT ever talk with the dead nor even believe that such aberration is remotely possible. Truly, Satan is determined to undermine the biblical view of death and the afterlife. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilationism to be true. Sadly, I used to make fun of this essential Christian doctrine while still an Adventist. And yes, the "fun" was because I did not understand and know the biblical doctrine of death(read and trust Jesus' words recorded in Matt. 25:46). Because of Calvary, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I know the SDA's always assert that if one believes that the dead go immediately to heaven, then you are subject to believe in spiritualism....bull. We went to visit a family tonight who are grieving for a brother who died last night. He was a Christian. This poor guy had been suffering with numerous cancerous tumors for several months. His sister told us that he had been in intense pain for the last 3 days...until yesterday afternoon. Suddenly the pain seemed less. He was even able to sit up in bed and was laughing and enjoying his family. My husband's observation after hearing this was that it sounds like the guy was aware that the end was near and was filled with anticipation for his imminent trip. Quite a difference from how an SDA would have approached their imminent death, huh? | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Lydell and Dennis, okay,so what are you saying?Do you think yhat we DO go to heaven or hell whan we die?I used to think that [before I was 'brainwashed']but I must say'that after my unbelieving brother died,I took comfort in thinking he wasn't in hell,if that was to be where he went,as they had taught me.But then when my father died 28 days later,I was torn because I didn't want to believe that he was just laying there in the ground.It is just a difficult subject to figure out.One of many,because I've never really read the Bible,we just always had 'studies' that always went along with what they believed.so I don't even know where to really start. God Bless! Angie | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Angie, Thank you for your comments. On another thread, I gave a book recommendation on this very topic for serious Bible students. Please consider purchasing the book titled, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, by Dr. Robert A. Morey (315 pages). It was copyrighted in 1984, and it is published by Bethany House Publishers in Minneapolis. It costs around fifteen dollars in a softcover edition. This book is especially helpful for those of us that were deceived by the Adventist heresy of soul sleep and conditionalism. Dr. Morey goes face to face with the contentions of Dr. Leroy Froom , the late SDA apologist and author for soul sleep and conditionalism. It is a must-read type of book on this important topic. In my view, the biblical concept of death will be definitively clear after reading this well-researched, yet easy to read and understand book. Simply call or visit your favorite bookstore to obtain a copy. The topic of death affects our view of salvation, Christ, humankind, etc. Here is a brief glimpse of Dr. Morey's book: "As sinners, the only thing we deserve is God's wrath in hell. The Bible does not teach that God owes us anything or that we even deserve a chance to be saved. It teaches that we don't in any sense deserve to be saved. Salvation is by GRACE. This means that God does not owe anyone anything (Rom. 4:1-5). God does not have to save anyone at all. It is all by grace." --Death and the Afterlife, p. 255. "It is to be regretted that some Christians have not understood the true origin and nature of the occult. They have called upon it as a witness to immortality. They do not realize that the occult is always dramatically opposed to the only true immortality which has been brought to light through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Occultic immortality and biblical immortality are two totally different things. Once this is recognized, then there will be no need for mediums, parapsychologists or reincarnationists." --Ibid., p. 265. In awe of the Lord of life, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dennis, I will be ordeing that book. However, I do believe the Bible is clear on an eternal spirit that dwells within humans. First, I don't remember where but when the Bible passage is speeking about Abraham at his death it says he went to be with his forefathers. Now, this obiviouselly does not mean his gravesite as Abraham died far away from where his forfathers had been buried. One of my most comforting passages is where Paul says he's having an emotionl/spiritual delema about rather being away from this earth and all he needs to do or wanting do die so he can be with Jesus That one, I think says it really quite plainly. Then there is the rich man Lazarus who goes into hell and his friends down there tell him to warn their relatives not to go to hell but Lazarus tells them the relatives have the words of Abraham to fall back on. I am only scratching the service of why I believe like I do but I will tell you right now, it is really trying to point these texts out to SDA. Totally, the only response I can get on the subject is just one text and it goes, "The living know they will die but the dead know nothing". And, at that point the conversation ends. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Angie, I still don't see a basis for having the unsaved dead anywhere yet. They had a dead spirit. And I don't see that hell exists until the time comes when satan is cast in. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Lydell,Dennis,& Susan,First of all,I will definitly get that book!Lydell,then what about my dad?He died in the hospital,and had one of those what some call a death-bed confession,which I totally believe that he meant it and only God knew his heart.So saying that,where is he,spirit,soul or whatever?I'm sure this book will answer my questions or point me to the text in the Bible,but sence where on the subject...Susan,I always was taught that the rich man was a parable,is it not??Thanks all of you.I know I proably ask 'baby' questions,but let me assure you..you are dealing with a very confused person!!Someone saidthat at least I wasn't in it all my life and maybe it shouldn't have effected me the way that it has,but believe me,it has REALLY affected me.I can't imagine living 'that way' all my life and finding out the truth.When I saw the truth,I went with it,but I can see how it took some of you years to finaly 'face it'.Okay, completely off yhe subject at hand,I do that b/c you guys are the only people,I know that can see where I'm coming from.Anyway it's 11:15 here in TN so goodnite and God Bless. Angie | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Jesus told the theif on the cross, "Toda you will be with me in paradise". | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Angie, Even if you consider the Rich Man and Lazarus a parable, Jesus never used untruths to teach truths. Jesus used parables exclusively to teach a truth. Also, many do not consider it a parable because Jesus' other parables do not mention people by name--this account does. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Angie, our we invited our pastor to visit our Friday night FAF Bible study about three years ago to lead us in a discussion of the condition of people in death. When he brought up the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of our group said, "But that's just a parable; it didn't really happen. Jesus was just using that story to teach a lesson about the rich having trouble getting to heaven." Gary looked at us with a sort-of stunned look momentarily, and then he said, "Jesus would not say something false to teach something true." I realized with a rush of understanding that we had believed that parable was not true because we had believed in a prophet who repeatedly said things that were not true, only to be re-interpreted later. Jesus NEVER played games with people. He did not tell them falsehoods in order to manipulate them into obedience, as Ellen said he did--and as Ellen herself did. Angie, I'm glad you'll order the book Dennis recommended. In the meantime, read John 11:25-26;2 Corinthians 5:1-10; Philippians 1:21-26. But I think you'll be really helped by the discussion in the book. The questions of life after death and eternal punishment were the last SDA strongholds for me. But I've come to deeply believe what Dennis said: the question of the spirit and immortality is crucial in our understanding of sin, salvation, the nature of man, and the nature of Christ. Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Concerning the rich man Parable: When they say it is "just" a parable, does that not say that Jesus teaching is not true. Like someone else said he would not use an analagy if it were not true. I'm sure the devil is laughing all the way to the bank. The thing the devil wants most is for us to doubt the teaching of Jesus. You know he is very selfish and only wants glory for himself, what better way? Think about it. Why is it they can tell us it is "just" a parable and then speak out of the other side of their mouth when they say the vision in Daniel, whatever, is what they base investigative judgment on? When I confront them with this the converstion ends. I have no problem with someone saying they don't know what happens at death but when someone tells me that they have the truth of the fact we will lay in our graves until Jesus comes to this earth my problem is with the fact they say "Truth" since there was only one person I know who came back from the grave and He is not in the grave sleeping but in Heaven sitting at the right hand of God(and has been since he ascended, if I read my Bible correct). I will listen to that truth and none other. Just the fact they say it is "The Truth" throws up a big red flag for me. This is what I listen to: Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said into them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the DEAD ARE RAISED, to the poor the gospel is preached. What do you think dead are raised means? I know he was speaking of what he had just done but does it have more meaning? We are talking about the dead so let's try and figure out from what Jesus did how we can understand it. John 11:25-26 Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever believeth in me SHALL NEVER DIE Believest thou this? These are not my words, but rather Jesus whom God has said in Matthew 17:5 Hear ye Him. It matters not to me what happens after I die because I am trusting totally in His provision. I could not even understand if he were to tell me what will happen so I rest in the fact its a mute point. The only thing I really need to know is how to get there. John14:6 sums it up for me. I am the way and the truth and the life; No man cometh unto the Father except thru me. Rest in what he provided; The map to get there, let Him take care of the details. Trusting in a God that is bigger than you or I and letting him have the space to prove it. Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Carol, so well said. I've grown to love that verse in Matthew 22:32 about God being the God of the living, not the dead! Colleen | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Angie, as per your dad, we are told that at the moment that we are saved we already have eternal life...not the promise of it to come someday, but already possess the real thing. We are already eternally alive with Christ. At death we are just pulling up the tent pegs and moving on. I am one who disagrees with the thought that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal true story. For one thing, I don't see anywhere else in the scriptures that indicates that the dead in hell and the dead in heaven are communicating with each other, or can see each other. Hey there's a bang up idea, you can sit in heaven and look down watching your beloved spouse or child in torment and just feel no pain. That just doesn't fit with all we are told about heaven being a place of peace with no sorrow. The whole context of the chapter is speaking about the love of money. The Pharisees certainly fit in that category and considered weath to be a sign of God's blessings and poverty a sign of His judgment. They were arrogant, Christ was pointing out that those blessings were intended to be used to reach out to others. He was slamming their mindset, letting them know that their wealth did not assure them a ticket to heaven. Their future would depend on relationship to God. I'm reminded of the SDA lady who came to me one day and asked if the story I had told the children that day was "true". It was a parable using animals with names. I told her that it was a story illustrating a truth, to which she stuck her nose in the air and sniffed in her best religious tone of voice, "always tell THE TRUTH dear." When my kids were little I always tried to find stories to read to them that were character building stories. When I read my kids one of those fictional bedtime stories it wasn't a "lie" it was a "story". There is a huge difference between the two! The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to support your view that the unsaved dead are in hell already, then you need to be using some text that is directly addressing that idea, rather than relying on this passage where it can only possibly be a very side issue if it is stretched. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Angie, back to the subject of spiritualism. The danger is that people who are involved in it don't realize they are playing with the demonic, believe it is benign, and thereby place themselves in a dangerous place. True story: when my husband was in college, he and a group of friends had been playing around having seances. They had started out with Quija boards and were working their way up, I guess. One night they found a quiet, secluded room, locked the door, had a candle burning in the middle of the table, lights out, everyone holding hands, and called up a spirit. My husband (definitely not one to immange these types of things I'm relating) reports that there was suddenly an ice cold chill in the room. He knows everyone felt it, because all instantly became quiet, a girl beside him began weeping (from fear no doubt). He says that he very distinctly felt a "finger" touch his shoulder briefly, and when it did he said he felt a deep chill of mingled fear and dread shoot through him. Immediately afterwards, the girl beside him who had been weeping screamed and fainted. He says that before that night this girl had been an excellent student and really outgoing person. Her life immediately changed from that night on. He says she literally looked different after that night. She eventually committed suicide. Have a friend right now who mentioned in passing one day a recurring experience she is having with a "visitation" from her dead "mother" I'd told her that the dead can't communicate with the living. She was silent for a minute and then said quietly, "maybe that explains why I always feel so disturbed afterwards". I have to wonder if there is a connection between that and her struggle with addiction. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Lydell, that is exactly why I am so confused about the state of the dead.How can one be in Heaven and look down and see your loved ones burning in Hell and still be happy??That IS the question!!!!As for 'stories',I let my son watch shows that are fictional but teaching him something at the same time.My husband on the other hand,insistes that it is wrong and I am letting him believe a lie.It gets on my nerves SOOOOO bad.But that is just one of our many differences now-days.What about 'good' spirits,do you believe that they linger aroud us?Before adventism,I thought that I could feel my dads presence.I had bought him a chimming clock long before he died and sometimes it would stop ticking when I would be standing there looking at it.After adventism,I just thought it was the devil messing with me.Man, things we are sure about can reaaly get messed up if we aren't careful,huh? The word alone!!Thats me for now on!!!!!! Talk to you later God Bless, Angie | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Angie, I just want to share something real quick with you . I think someone else mentioned this and I will agree and tried looking for the scripture but have not come up with it yet, but we are not to be concerned with the dead. Now in 1998 I lost something very precious to me, my daughter-in-law to a car accident on an icy road. I loved talking with her and missed it to the point of uncomprhendable so one night while sleeping I had a dream of her but what I knew about the fact I am not to be concerned about the dead kicked in and I screamed out Get thee behind me satan. I have never had such a thing happen again. Satan knows very well how to get to us but Praise God we believe in one who is Stronger. I know in my human self I would have given anything to talk to her but God knew what was best for me and just like He has done many, many times He interceded for me and I was at peace with it. Goodnight and God Bless Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Actually, Lydell, I agree with you. I'm glad you pointed out the difference between "story" and "real". In fact, the part about the Lazarus and the rich man story that I suddenly understood must be true is that death is not the end of the essential part of us. I realize that I didn't make that clear in my posts earlier. I don't believe the saved and unsaved dead can literally communicate with each other. And I also agree that the unsaved dead are not yet in hell; that certainly seems to be something reserved for after the final judgment. They're somewhere that's not the presence of Jesus, but the Bible talks about hell being after the judgment. As an Adventist I believed that the whole idea of death involving any kind of awareness was false. I assumed, as I was taught, that this parable was only talking about the problems rich people have getting into heaven. I believed that the references to the dead being anywhere and having any sort of awareness was irrelevant and not true. That particular point is what I understood our pastor to be saying was true: the dead go somewhere, and the part of the person that knows or does not know Jesus is aware of being with him or not with him. I never understood the story to be literal, but merely representing spiritual reality, much like the parable of the lost coin and the one of the faithful and unfaithful servants, to name two. Further, the parable itself says that between the usaved and saved dead, a great gulf has been fixed that is uncrossable. And Carol, you're right; we don't have to be concerned about the dead. God is in control! From the perspective of being a former Adventist, however, I understand how important this subject is to others of this background, and how much my own understanding the the "state of the dead" has changed my understanding of sin and salvation. Praise God! Colleen |
