| Author | Message | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, I would counsel you like I would anyone else who is struggling with which church or group or literature to believe is stay with the Bible and the Bible alone and when you are pushed for an answer to a question you don't understand tell them about Jesus. The Lord will reveal to you what you need to know and like I said some posts ago, you may feel like there is nothing more to learn but God is so powerful and he will give you what you need when you need it and when He knows you are ready for it. I have found that many, many times I have been perplexed about something and asked God as I sat down for my time of meditaion on His word that although up until this January I was reading out of the same devtional(which was a daily devotional) for 10 years I would be lead to something which was so relevant for what I was at the time not understanding. Maybe it would happen by reading on father than the text of the devotional had specified or maybe it was just a different look at a familiar passage. That is what is so marvelous about letting the Spirit lead. Having said that I will also say I can certainly appreciate your desire to have an answer immediatley, I was in that position and still am at times. It's then that we must lean heavy on God for our strentgh. That brought to mind an incident that happened to our oldest son some time after his wife had died and we were at the funeral of some dear friends daughter who was murdered. During a sharing time following the interment I knew he was going to speak and prayed that he would be able to. He conveyed to the husband to lean hard on God to get thru this. I would convey the same to you. Remebering that we serve a God who gave His son so that thru His death, burial and resurrection He came back to release His Spirit to us thereby giving us strentgh thru Him. You don't need answers to everyones questions you only need to know for sure what you believe and the rest will fall into place. To all who are discourged I pray God's assurance. Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree with Carol. I would also add that you have and believe the New Testament. Messianic Jews such as your friend (I mean this as a distinction from some who really do understand the new covenant) are tied to the Old Testament. Without the New Testament, we would not have the clear understanding we have that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. Jesus revealed truth in a fuller, more complete way than the OT could ever have done. He was God. In fact, we must read the OT through our New Testament understanding. That, perhaps, is one of the Messianic Jews great pitfalls; they read the NT through OT eyes. Don't lose sight of the fact that the NT, including Paul(!) is scripture! Colleen | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
Oh, man. The confusing mixture of NT Adventism and their OT focus and ritual was what kept me out of any church for a couple of decades after leaving the SDA church. My journey back started by reflecting on just one NT verse, and even now I only study the New Testament. I haven't read this entire thread, but I had to respond to Colleen's post. I went to SDA schools, so I've learned enough Jewish history to be convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only reason to spend time in the OT. Except for entertainment. I think the story of Jonah is hilarious - what an odd duck he was. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Hello to all. Remember the long article that I posted from the Messianic Rabbi who believed in the New Covenant? I sent it to my Messianic friends for perusal and they refuted the whole thing. They said he was a Jew for Jesus posing as a messianic Jew! They also don't call themselves Christians. Strange. Here is more news. My daughter (13) told my ultra-conservative sister-in-law that I was no longer an SDA. I had a moment of anger but I realize she is just a child. I have heard how my sister-in-law talks about people to my preacher father-in-law (judgmentally) so I know they will have a field day with me. I have been told that there has been a prayer circle formed for me. While I can use the prayer, it still aggravates me! Though I am not ashamed of the Gospel and will proclaim it freely, I still didn't want them to know about the upheval in my home. oh well. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, Just remember there is a prayer chain here for you also and your family. God will give you the words to say, the strentgh to endure if and when it is needed. i know that SDA's think they are being persecuted and they somewhat relish in that fact, thinking then that they must be doing it right. What they don't understand is Jesus said you will be hated of all men for my name's sake. It doesn't say for the Sabbath or diet or if/when we are sinless it says for my name's sake and I think you must take a lot of liberty with scripture to make it say something else. I belong to a denomination of which people were burned at the stake. That is not why I belong but it sure makes you stop and think. Just a note on that: A Mother was burned at the stake and had sent a letter to her 13ish old son that she would pray that he would have Christ in his heart. This son watched as his mother was taken to the stake(with a tongue screw in her tongue) and fainted when it actually happened and when he woke there was nothing left but ashes and he later went and picked up the tongue screw and vowed to his dead mother that he would in fact be a witness of Christ. I am not prostelitizing but if anyone would want to look at some true stories of my ancestors you can go to Martyrs Mirror. I am in no way saying I am as strong as these people but as yet I have not had to defend my faith in such a manner and I know from other experiences in my life that God only gives what He knows we can take and then He is there to talk you thru it. Pheeki you are one of God's special people right now, like Abraham, Moses, David, Job, Jonah, Ruth, Esther and many more. God put you in this position for a reason as He did the rest of us and He will see you thru. Because of Him, Carol | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
To any one who might want the acutal site of the persecution I just posted about it is:http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/977-maeyken.htm#deventer I only post this because of the reference that I gave and I know for myself sometimes I would like to know a little more. If that is the case here it is. Again I say it makes you stop and think. Carol | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I don't feel like I am anything special. I feel like a failure as a wife and mother. I am terribly discouraged, yet I am not giving up. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a martyr like the mother you mentioned. I was always told I needed to be prepared to die or let my children die in the time of trouble (for the "truth" of the Sabbath) but I never felt I could do this. Christ would have to give me the strength b/c I don't have it! The pity of my loved ones isn't too high of a price to pay when you consider what Christ suffered. The Messianic people really have me depressed. the message they are preaching is very dark. They think Christity is Babylon and they are the true Yaweh belivers who have the Torah and really downplay the NT, Christ and Paul. My friend sent me about 20 pages of manuscript about what they believe and it felt very oppressive. What I have learned is this feeling doesn't come from the Holy Spirit. But, they are so convincing they cause you to doubt what you believe for a little while. And this is what I was doing when I found out a prayer chain had been started to pray me back to SDAism. I had been reading this oppressive document about the love of the Torah and how no one else knows how to worship God except Torah keepers and when Christ comes back the sacrificial system will be set up again!!!! I could go on but I don't want to spread this stuff to others. Suffice it to say, it all hit me at once. But I opened the scriptures to Romans 10 and this is what I saw... 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." PRAISE GOD!!! THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS, THAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT MAKES MY SPIRIT LIGHT WITH JOY! THAT IS THE ONLY THING I AM GOING TO SEND IN REPLY TO MY MESSIANIC FRIENDS, THE GOOD NEWS!!!! THE GOOD NEWS IS MISSING FROM THEIR MESSAGE AND WE ALL NEED TO HEAR IT OFTEN! PRAISE GOD. Carol, thanks for your reply. I needed words to uplift me and the Lord always seems to send someone!! | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Carol, I went to the martyr site and boy did it put my problems in perspecitve! What faith. I am surmising these are not Sabbath keepers or were they? They mention Sabbath in some of their letters and I was wondering. | ||
| Wally (Wally) |
Pheeki, I didn't follow your post above about the Messianic Jews - I thought Jews for Jesus are Messianic Jews? Are your Messianic friends not Jews? Sorry if I am slow on this - I thought the article was very good, by the way. Wally | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, Carol is right; there IS a prayer circle here for you and your family. Sometimes we have to simply not read or listen to things that we know are opposed to the gospel. I really believe that the spirit of Adventism (which I believe is a literal evil spirit) which held us in bondage before the truth of Jesus broke through still attempts to seduce us back into deception, even if it's a slightly new variety of deception. The Holy Spirit, though, can replace that spirit in our hearts. It's like the parable of the man who sent the evil spirit out of his house, swept it clean, and found that his house was re-inhabited by seven spirits where there had previously been one. The point is that we can decide to leave deception behind and leave evil behind, but unless we ask God to fill those places of our hearts with his Holy Spirit, they are left vacant. The heart does not like a vacuum! I praise God that he continues to teach us and help us understand spiritual truth and reality and that he protects our hearts and minds with his peace and truth! Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, No they were not Sabbath keepers in the same sense that SDA is. If they would have worshipped on the Sabbath it would not have been the same as SDA does for salvation. In my conference and other conferences that I know of the Mennonites this is not now happening. Isn't it marvelous the way God goes before us. I realize you are a in tough spot right now, that is why the Lord sent you to me and others on this forum, to share with you how we know and understand. In the first few months and probably a year or more after this started with my son-in-law I was petrified that he would ask me something I did not know and try to trick me into something, but God in his wisdom did not allow that to happen. He did allow my stomach to churn and my nerves to crawl but that is all gone now. Now I pray that he would ask me questions because then I would know that he was interested in the real thing. Until he does I will pray and expect a miracle. The Lord allowed this time for me to gain knowledge of the scripture so that I could talk freely and fluently about many areas of the Bible. I just want to affirm you in what you have found thru none other than God himself that you are in God's marvelous care. I will say that even though you are in His care does not make life easy it only makes it worthwhile since we know whom we have believed and are persuaded that he is able to keep that which we've committed unto Him against that day. For any of you who haven't guessed I love to sing and much of my strentgh comes from music, always has and now as I am in my Bible I see that those old gospels and hymns are taken right out of the verses in the Bible. My name is not Carol just by chance, you see I was born Dec. 19 and when they told my Father that he had a girl the nurse said you have a Christmas Carol. When I was young I hated my name because it was so common but after I knew the reason for it and as I grew older and found the love of singing I love my name. It is even more special to me since my Father has been gone since Aug. 1975. I PRAISE GOD for leading you to Romans 10. Do you remember how I shared how the Lord first put scripture in my face so that I would see that this thing about eating right and a certain day were not for those of us who believe in Him? It was Ro. 14 and that came thru a service in my church of which an elder read the wrong scripture, it should have been Ro. 15, but you see it was the right scripture for me. It was then, just a few weeks into this thing that I said there must be more in the Bible about this and thus my study started and then corroborated with everything that I had ever trusted God for, my marriage, my children, my daughter-in-law's death, my husband's heart attack and many many many others along the way. You are so very special to God first of all and to those of us who have been in your shoes and would want you not to have to go thru this. I would liken it to childbirth. It is quite painful but the end result is so marvelous. I would never have wished that my daughter not become pregant so she would not have to suffer that pain but rather so that she would know the joy from the result. Goodnight and I give God all the praise and glory for sending you to me. Carol | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
A note of family history of my ancestery. My ancestors were Menninites going way far back. Back to around the time Menno Semons first led some believers to see the gosple his way. Then my granparets on both sides of my parents got converted to Adventism from Menninitism. My dads parents were still Menninites whn they were till living in Russia but once they got to North America they learned of the SDA truth and switched denominations In fact, that particular grandfather coresponded with Herbert W. Armstrong for a long time but then went the SDA route. On my mothers side when my grandmother was a young girl of only 17 she wentto an evengalistic SDA tent meeting in South Dakota and at that time gave her live to"the truth" in baptism (SDA). This must have been in 1906 because I believe my grandmother was born in 1889. SDA'ism was still a fairly new religion and I can just immagine how excited people must have bee at that time to become a part of a new religion that had the truth that had been hidden from humanity for so many years, nearly 2000 years in fact. I once asked my dad if he'd ever personally met and spoke with anyone famous. Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Marlene Dietrich and the other beauties of that era who were such georgeous pin-up girls but my dad answered with this, "Yes, once when I was a little boy I met Ellen White". I just said, "O.K., Daddy" and left it at that. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Susan, Richard's maternal ancestors were Russian Mennonites also, we just learned. The Ratzlaffs, (Richard's grandpa and Dale Ratzlaff's father were brothers) were Russian Germans who were Mennonites and emigrated to the USA to escape the political persecution in Russia. How interesting! Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Oh what a small world we live in. My Grandmother on my father's side (Regier) came across when she was 8 years old. She lost a sister at sea and her burial ground is at sea. I had often wondered about Dale's family since I know that Ratzlaff is a German name. I love my heritage but I want to stress again as I hope I have conveyed before it is not my heritage or the Mennonite church that make me what I am, it is Jesus Christ. I am the only one of my family of 3 brothers that has remained Mennonite but that does not mean we believe different. My oldest brother is now in a church which was an offshoot of my own and thus many Mennonites are in it. I would like to say that we are in NO way at odds with each other. That is because our main focus is on Jesus Christ. I would like also to say that when I was asked by my son-in-law if it would be as upsetting to me if it would have been another chruch, I said as long as I knew the spirit of God was there it would be no problem. I dare say he probably did not believe me. My daughter and I are very close and because we are close and because I love her like life itself I want the best for her. The best for her is to know for sure herself and be grounded firmly in what she believes. The best teacher is a hands on teacher and I believe that is what I have done by sharing what I have experienced of how God has worked in my life. And because of that and nothing else she has found out for herself and therefore the Glory of God has shone thru. Because we are all one in Christ and some us even have the same heritage. Carol | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Colleen, How are you kin to Dale?His book, Cultic Doctrine,was what led me to the REAL truth!!Then I ordered,Sabbath in Crisis.It was good too, but Cultic Doctrin was awsome!!There for a minute I thought,OH your his wife!but then I looked at the dedication and her name is Carolyn.I wondered if she has a e-mail address?Anyway just thought I would ask! Angie | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
My understanding of Jews for Jesus is that they are a little radical. I think they focus on converting traditional Jews to Christ but I don't know their methods. I am not sure why there is such a distrust of them but my friends seemed to think they are Christians masquerading (infiltrating) as Jews to win souls to Jesus. (Paul did the same thing actually, he said to the Jews I was a Jew and to the Gentiles I was as a Gentile...) I paraphrased but you get the picture. I think probably traditional Jews are scared of them infiltrating their ranks. Here is a side comment about my friends who are Messianic Jews...they just received a document from the headquarters of M.Jews saying the to be a M.Jew you had to prove lineage to Judah. My friend said that excludes them. She said they have been meeting in homes with other believers so they don't even attend a synagogue. so apparantly they are not really accepted even by the Messianic Jews. I reminded them of the Bible verse that said, "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile..." If there are any Jews for Jesus reading this I mean no disrespect and I am making assumptions. If I am wrong, please correct! | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Hey guys! I am currently in a debate about sabbatarian issues on crosswalk.com and I was posting something on there this morning that really made me think. For all that Adventists and other sabbatarian groups spout off about keeping the Law, its amazing how much of the Bible they miss out on. I know we're all thought about this before. Here's a copy of my most recent post. Just look at what all must be false in order to support sabbatarian doctrine: - Galatians 3:19, 23-26 has to be false. If The Law is indeed eternal, it couldn't have been added at any point like Paul said. It also could not have been to last until Christ like He said too. The Law cannot be our tutor to lead us to Christ. And once we have Christ, we need the Law more than ever! This whole passage has to be false! - Romans 10:4 has to be false. If the Law is indeed eternal, then Christ cannot be the end of the law. - Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 has to be false. Moses had to have been lying when he said that the Ten Commandments were not given to their ancestors. - 2 Corinthians 3:7-18 has to be false. Paul could not have been talking about the Ten Commandments here, since they are eternal. Something else must have been etched on stone that caused death and condemnation. Since the Ten Commandments must be eternal, they must be what gives life. The New Covenant cannot be far greater than the Old. Also, the glory of the Ten Commandments could not have been fading since they are eternal. Reading the Law does not put a veil over my face that is removed by the Gospel. The whole passage has to be false. - Romans 1:17 has to be false. Paul could not have meant what he said about being made right by faith. Apparently, since our keeping the Ten Commandments is so important to God, we can be made right with Him by keeping them. - Romans 8:1-4 has to be false. Since the Law is so important to God, then if we break them, it brings condemnation upon us. So therefore there IS condemnation available for those in Christ. Paul must be lying. In addition, he must be lying about the part where he says that Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us. i guess Jesus did it for Himself and then gave us the power to do it and said, "here good luck", instead of doing it for us. - Jeremiah 31:31-34 must be false. Apparently God could not have made a new covenant that was not like the old. Since the first covenant was based on Ten Commandments, and those are eternal, then it cannot be feasible for there to be a completely new one. (New implying that it is brand new, not renewed, not having any aspect of old. That is inless the word "new" doesnt really mean "new". I've already found out that "for us" doesnt really mean that either. Bible's tricky like that.) I just cant bring myself to believe that Paul could be such a liar. Praise God that the Bible really does mean what it says! Joel | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Joel,Thay was a very goog point.I don't understand how they can just disreguard what ALL the Bible says!When I first became adventist,my mom asked me if we went by the OT.I of course said no b/c yes we did go by SOME of the NT,only that which benifited our beliefs not the NT as a whole.I didn't understand that at the time though.Praise God I do now.Do you mind if I take what you wrote and send it to my x-pastor?I've been debating on hoe to aproach the subject with him,maybe then he will quit trying to' bring me back to the truth'. God Bless! Angie | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Great post Joel! Now we know why Paul said he was the chief of sinners. He was a pathological liar wasn't he? Just kidding. Angie, this would be good information for your pastor to see, but I have one question for you. Why do you feel the need to convince him? Is it because he is open to truth right now, and you think he will benefit from it, or is it because you are justifying your position. One of the most freeing moments for me was when I realized that I didn't need anyone's approval, to follow my conscience. Adventists are notorious for wanting to put you on trial for your beliefs. Generally, they do not want to know what or why you believe in a certain way. They only want to convince you of the error of your ways. So, you (at least I did), spend a lot of time defending your position. I no longer do that. I am not saying that that is what you are doing, but offer it for whatever it is worth. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Doug, you are right about that. I have been feeling the need to convince my family of what I have found. Yes, I want affirmation, I admit it, but I also want them to know that there is Good News in the Bible, not just condemnation. (Which is mostly what we hear as SDA). However, I am slowly coming to realize in the last few weeks that it may be too much for them at once. I also need to let the Holy Spirit do his work and stop worrying about it. You know, I currently have a prayer chain going for me to pray me back into the SDA fold. I told my mother that it seems like it's harder for them to accept me being a Christ follower instead of being SDA, but I don't see them so worried about the people in the family who don't have ANY relationship with God what so ever! No, it is far worse to be non-SDA than non-Chrisitan any day. Strange. |
