| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I was looking through an old notebook and came across some notes I had jotted down in preparation for a "Daniel Seminar" (you all remember those don't you?) I was to lead a few years back. Anyway, there were some "introductory" notes for our first evening of the seminar. I am almost ashamed to share with you the four promises I made to the audience: 1. We are not here to argue with you 2. We are not here to get you to join our church or preach denominationalism 3. We will not tell you anything that cannot be verified by the Word of God 4. We are not here to beg for your money. Well, one out of four isn't bad. We did not take up an offering. The good thing about it is that we had very low attendance, and most of the people who showed up were members of our local (SDA) congregation. Oh man, its hard to believe some of the things we did/said/believed. Am I alone, or does anyone else care to share? In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
No, you're not alone. I have asked God to forgive me for the times I wittingly or unwittingly influenced questioning or vulnerable people to return to or to embrace the Sabbath and the SDA church. I realized that when I taught in SDA schools and also taught Sabbath School, I probably used my influence to keep people in the church. I just pray that God will redeem my possible influence in those people's lives so they end up embracing Jesus instead of embracing the Sabbath and the SDA "truth". I have really been embarassed to realize how bizarre I must have sounded to defend or admit that I believed in an extra-Biblical prophet! Colleen | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I agree!I creng when I think about all those books I gave out.After church on sabbath,we would go out to different communities and man would we give out the books!There was a widow lady that sticks out in my mind.She was old,and abandoned by her grown kids,the' perfect victim'how I wanted to fill that void in her sad life.So you know how we were.I'm sure they still visit her on regular basis,as she couldn't get out,we went to her with the 'truth',which when I left,she was accecpting.I pray now that people just thru those books away!!! Angie | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Doug, Colleen, Angie or anyone else having once been in, I just saw the markee at my son-in-law's church and this is what it said. Looking unto Jesus is ever to be our motto. Can anyone give me some actual interpretation of that from an SDA's point of view. I know what it would mean to me but if it meant that to them we wouldn't have this strife. Another question: Since they believe only in the KJV(and I want to make it perfectly clear this is not to be a debate about Bible translation) why when I look at some of their interpretaions they use NIV, I think I saw Simple English,and it appears they use what ever says best what they are trying to say, but in reality they say KJV is the only one. Do they think that their people are so guilible that they will not see this? Do they think that I am so stupid that I will not see this? Do they play on that very thing; that in fact many people do not know their Bible well(myself included) and therefore believe anything anyone tells them, without searching for themselves? I do not know if I have shared this or not, forgive me if I have, but I have felt for some time now it is none other than a bait and switch mentality thus once you are hooked the damage is done. I just came accros something on the internet while finding something to send to my grandchildren for valentines day. I thought it very interesting at first and then applied it to this type of thinking(of which I believe is a brainwash tactic)and it became very clear to me that the brain can trick us but Ro. 10:10 says that we believe with our heart. What a great thought for this "pagan"day tomorrow of valetnines. To see what I mean go to http://www.optical illusions.ws/TOUGHColorTest.html I would encourage you to click be prepared to recieve much more email from this web site. When you do just click on the bottom to not recieve anymore. It does have some other interesting things on it. One of the things is a black and white picture with 3 dots vertical in the middle and you stare at this for a minute and then put your head back and you see Jesus. I had seen this before and it is awesome. Hope you can find it. It just brings to light what the mind over matter can accomplish. Sometimes this is scary except when we have an advocate to lead us into all truth. Don't forget the questions at the top of my post if anyone cares to give insight. Heart is in the KJV 895, NIV 776, Love is in the KJV & NIV 546. Just some interesting trivia this time of year. No subtle message by different translations 1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son ,Carol | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I had never heard the sda church had an accepted bible translation of one over another. I just thought they used whatever version best agrees with them. They do have the Clrear Wird Bible that they wrote themselves | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Carol, I suspect you would hear different answers--even among SDA's about what the motto, "looking unto Jesus" means. The evangelistically minded would say that it means "looking to Jesus as the source of my strength and salvation." The truly honest would say that it is a reference to the second coming of Jesus as their hope. As far as versions of the Bible are concerned, there is not an official position (that I am aware of) that places the KJV above other versions. However, there is an unwritten _______ (I don't know what to call it), that says that the KJV is the preferred Bible for serious students. All other versions are for spiritual lightweights. In progressive churches, you may see the NIV used, but I dare say you will not see any other version used with any degree of regularity. I don't mean to sound critical (or stereotypical), but most SDA's don't really care that much about the King James vs. Modern Translation hoopla. The sad truth is that most don't read the Bible anyay. Allow me to explain, the serious students generally do not have a problem with the KJV. They want to get the pure word of God, and are willing to take the additional time required to read it. Since most SDA exegesis is accomplished through the here a little, "there a little" technique anyway, the KJV suits their purposes. Hey, if you can read EGW, you can read anything. The less than serious students pretty much stick to just studying the Sabbath School Lesson, which is a compilation of EGW quotes, the authors commentary, and isolated verses thrown in for support. The student essentially just goes to the verses that have been pre-determined for them, and reads them in the context of the author's particular viewpoint. The KJV is quite suitable for these purposes. This is how SDA doctrine is perpetuated. In most cases, the student does not even realize this is happening. The masses (as a whole), don't read anything. They don't study the Sabbath School Lesson, and probably don't even bring a Bible to church. They are satisfied to come sit and listen to whatever is spoonfed to them. SDAs are taught very early to be leary of any theology that has not been filtered through the church. This is why if you mention a book or a speaker/author to them, they will almost always respond with, "is he Adventist?" If the answer is yes, he has instant credibility. If the answer is no, he is automatically suspect. I can only speak for my experience in the church, but all versions (outside of the KJV and the NIV) are considered to be "non-Adventist." They are automatically suspect, and most people would not give any credibility to what is contained in them, let alone use them themselves. Hopefully this answers your question. Maybe others have some better/additional insight. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Just when I thought my SDA church was different...more liberal, moving away from EGW... I am attending Weigh Down Workshop at the local SDA church. This is a good program and the last time I did it I lost 22 pounds and was at my high school weight! Anyway, I gained it back over 2 years and so here I am again...but the person who invented this program is named Gwen Shamblin. She has sortof gone off on the deep end over the years and it has come out she doesn't believe in the trinity, etc. So she has lost some church support b/c you could find this in many churches of all denominations. I have to give credit to Gwen and her ministry for causing my blinders to slip just a little. She constantly quotes Colosians 2:16...Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. She quoted this verse at the last meeting on her tape and the SDA in the crowd didn't bat an eye but boy did my heart burn with in me! She quotes other problematic texts (for SDA) in her series and it prompted a friend of mine to ask me (the first time I took the class) what I thought about it. She said it seems to go against EGW b/c Gwen tells us Jesus says everything is clean and to be eaten with thanksgiving. She said she was questioning the teachings of our church. I could kick myself! I told her that I believed in EGW 100% and that she was a prophet. She consequently let it drop and just continued on in the church. I approached her a few months back with my new findings, knowing that she had once questioned too...the shoe was on the other foot, she told me she believed in EGW! I felt such remorse. What had I done? I can't tell you how badly I regret that conversation but I was so indoctrinated! But back to my origional statement at the top...I walked into the SS room where WD is being held and on the dry erase board was the entire Investigative judgment timeline drawn out with copious notes on it! I was nauseated...it is still being taught. Update on the baptismal class my daughter and son are in (though they are already baptized!) I asked her to ask the preacher how you are saved. He said by simply believeing, no works. So I asked her to go back and ask him why Sabbath is referred to as the seal of God... we will see. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Pheeki, The preacher said one is saved by ì. . . simply believing, no works.î I think almost any current Adventist would answer that way. The problem is that every little part of that statement means something different than most other Protestant Christians would understand. ìSavedî is not ìsavedî in the sense of completely blotting out sins because of the Blood of Christ, nor is it ìI will remember their sins no more.î ìBelievingî is not ìbelievingî in Jesusí perfect sacrifice at the cross, His eternal mediation on our behalf in heaven, nor Godís mercy granted as an undeserved gift. ìNo worksî only applies to the time before conversion, then the labor gets really tough after that. Not one word is what it seems, in that answer. Of course, you probably knew that. I just wanted to emphasize the duplicity and warn you about these attacks. Yes, they are attacks. This sort of statement along with other things are designed to undermine your understanding of Godís word by making it seem that things are changing and are true to the Gospel, when they are not. Your experience with the IJ diagram is a reminder that nothing is what it seems on the surface. Be very careful about your contacts. Always assume that what is said is not quite what the plain words mean. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
carol,I agree with Doug,all except,in the home church I went,all they used was KJV.They even quit receiving stuff from John Grossball b/c he preached with the NIV.Which really makes no sence b/c EGW had I don't know how versions in her library when she died. Totally off this tread but..anyone who is recently'out'or even you others'you know when 911 happened,all these pamphets came out saying that this was one of EGW 'visions' so the end was definitely fast approaching!!We gave out so many of those pamphets!!Well,when I first started ? EGW,I emailed the white estate and believe it or not,they accually said this was not one of her'visions',but the church chalks it up as one more of her fulfillments of a true prophet!!Just thought I'd throw that in here.And Carol,I can see what you mean by the Bible alone,I agree,but like Doug said,the way we had study'sabout the state of the dead,it did go along with the Bible,but also 'here alittle there alittle'makes it very complicated to see anything except that you are asleep and soul,body,and spirit is nothing until Jesus returns.It is so stuck in my head that way,that I need someone I guess to just spell it out to me. [I don't mean this in a smart way either]Anyway God Bless!! Angie | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Angie, I am not sure I understood what you meant by the White Estate saying that this was not one of her visions. Do you mean to say that they denied the existence of such a quote? You can find the quote in ìTestimonies for the Church Volume 9: page 13.î You can see this at the White Estate web site. On the other hand, did you mean that they said that it was ìnot a vision?î If so, they are ignoring the wording of the text. It clearly has ìvision languageî in it. However, if they mean that this does not match 9/11, they are absolutely correct. (Yet another ìpropheticî failure to go with several others.) Jerry | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Today in the car my daughter was again defending EGW saying that she predicted the US would fall. My kids are nervous about the terrorist potential... anyway, I assured them that with the amount of people who love God in this country, God would protect us, and that a lot of prayer was going up to him for protection. I then said, "EGW predicted things that didn't come true, like England would enter the Civil War, etc." she said, "Well, what about 9/11? She was right about that!" It so happened that my father-in-law was holding a set of evangelistic meetings during 9/11 and boy did he capitolize on her vision of the "fireman were powerless to put out the fire of man's most glorious buildings, a monument to money"...or some such thing...can't remember exact quote. The SDA really took that one and ran! At last...vindication! They were right and now everyone will see, was the attitude. Anyway, speaking of John Grossbol...his wife was one of my nursing instructors and one time at a college SS my boyfriend/now husband and his singing group performed the National Anthem, well, everyone stood up and placed their hands over their hearts except John and his wife. The action really stood out...not sure what point they were trying to make? Separation of church and state? Oh, well. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Jerry,to my understanding,they were claimimg that it wasn't a vision.That is why it blew my mind,I had that pamphet right there reading where it was in the testimonies.And yea Pheeki,that is exactly what they thought,b/c I did also!And that probably was why they didn't stand up.Hey what about all the scare tactics they use,do any of you still think that the goverment is out to get us?Or do you think there is any truth to all the anti-goverment,police state,ect,ect...This was another tread I wanted to start,but didn't know how to get on the subject. God Bless! Angie | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Angie, maybe what they meant but didn't say was that it wasn't a vision but was a dream. EGW seemed to stop having visions about the time of menopause and thereafter had dreams instead. Her dreams, however, had the same weight as her visions, and she said she always had the same handsome young guide in each of her dreams. (Familiar spirit, I wonder?) Jerry is right about what Adventists mean by saying we are saved by simply believing, no works. And Carol, I'd like to piggy-back on Doug's answer to your question about the marquee in front of your son-in-law's church. The "evangelical Adventists" in Southern California would say they mean exactly what the sign says: Looking unto Jesus is ever our motto. They claim they preach and teach Jesus. The problem is that they do not lead people to or even understand the need to lead people to a heart surrender to him. Looking unto Jesus is a mental act. The evangelical Adventist position also has unspoken but powerful overtones of meaning that Jesus is the one who will help us be good. They really do say the same things Christians say about needing Jesus and depending upon him for salvation. They will even say they know they are saved. Yet out of the other side of their mouths they simultaneously say that the Sabbath is the true mark of our love for Jesus, and it is going to be our final proof of loyalty. I personally find the amalgamation of true Christian theology mixed with Adventist works and Sabbath-keeping and healthy living to be even more crazy-making, in a way, than true, unadulterated Adventism. It's a hybrid that is neither truly Christian nor truly Adventist. It's difficult to refute because the words are right, yet the intent is hidden and heretical. It's proponents are truly Adventist. They are loyal to a fault, even if they don't observe all the requirements, and they will argue long and vehemently with anyone who tries to point out their inconsistencies or the truth of Biblical teaching. I'm so thankful that God reveals himself through the Bible and that he confirms himself and his truth to us with his Holy Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
My friend Lyle is 79 years old. He is Mormon. He also is the #1 fan of EGW. I just told him several days ago how come he became Mormon and not SDA since he likes EGW so much? His answer didn't make sense to me and then he got to telling me that EGW and the SDA church are so right about diet and health but the Mormon church teaches each household should have at least one years worth of food and water on hand for when hard times come and he likes having huge bins of food squirrled away. I don't know what this post has to do with anything except while writing it it made sense to me. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Colleen you always hit the nail on the head. It is so hard to explain how the church who do preach Christ are cultic in their thinking. You can only know the real truth from being a member. I thought I was a good christian and talked alot about Christ and his return but there were conditions added to my beleif. Some people think they are very harmless until you start telling them that the church thinks they will be hunted down by them at the end of time for being sabbath keepers they can not even understand all the terms SDA people use sunday keepers some people look at me as if I were crazy and how can people believe this stuff that the church teaches. They say one thing but really they do not follow saved by grace it is a really warped church and really its even hard for me to explain and I was there for 27 years. I do know what I know and they say one thing but really do another and there are many in house things you know but do not tell others. If they did the world would know the truth and not think them as harmless as they think now. Well thanks for letting me vent. Terry | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Iattended a sa service recently with my mom. The preacher baptized a young lady, I'd guess age 25 or so, he bapitized her sda. This was at the beginningof the service. After her bapitism he gave a sermon. Just before his dismissle prayer he asked the newly bapitized young lady to come up fromt that he had someting for her.`He then gave her a beautiful boquet of cut flowers and he handed her a booklet telling her, "Here is a booklet explaimimg the answers to questions you may have about the Seventh-day Adventist Church. If you don't understand anything or have more questions feelfree to get ahold of me and I'll be happy to meet with you and eplain it." It just seemed to me that she must not have known much about sda'ism prior toher joining the church. Now she'll get all her info about the church from the church and all her spiritual guidence from the sda church. And, I really believe what she will be getting will be inacuratte close to 100% either what she learns about adventism or about what the bible teaches. BTW, my mom had me talk her to see her pastor about something and we were in his office. As with most ministers he has hundreds of books in his office. I noticed he had an entire setion of anti-sda books. He has Cultic Doctrines by Dale Ratzlaff, he had The White Lie, he had A theologion's Jurney, several others whose titles I can't recall now. As my mom and I were leaving I said to this sda minister, "I see you and I have quite a few of the same books". He'd noticed that I was looking right at that section while he an my mom were discussing whatever it was that she needed to speek with him about and his response to me was, "Yes, I'm sure we do" and we both knew what each other ment. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
After going to a seminar the first time I got the videos "all 36 hours worth" and watched them 4 or 5 times right away then many times after that. Then I told everyone I knew that Sunday keeping was the mark of the beast, the number of the beast name and how it added up to 666, etc. I lost a lot of friends that I knew for a long time. I'm gradually getting them back and have better things to tell after reading Sabbath in Crisis. |
