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Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 5:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

You stated this as a P.S. to your good post:

"P.S.--I don't understand the vinegar denial either!! My sister asked me if I had ever seen what happened to a worm when it had vinegar poured over it. SO?"

I have a very good friend who is SDA. She is 86 (87 this year) and has said a similar thing to me regarding the vinegar with one exception. She was taught, BY HER MOTHER, that vinegar has worms in it! So these similar teachings have gone back a few generations.

It must have been taught in the SDA church somewhere in order for two people to come off with the concept of vinegar and worms. Interesting.

Thanks and God Bless us all with HIS Peace,

Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't a clue about vinegar and worms but the tequlia sold around here has a worm in the bottom of the tequlia and lucky is the woman whose husband sollows the worm! Remember, the Bible does say, "a woman will have desire for her husband."
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! Looks like you guys needed to vent too!

Here is another thing...EGW says nothing about stuffing yourself into oblivion as far as I can remember. Or getting enough exercise (though people back then worked harder...couldn't she predict the results of the industrial revolution and adjust counsel accordingly? I mean she predicted "mad cow" right? hee hee) and water.

She tells us not to drink with our meals as it dilutes stomach acid. Stomach acid it very strong and that advice makes no sense. Fruits and veges have a lot of fluid in them, we digest them just fine. Adding a few sips between bites actually keeps you from overeating so much...and have you ever treid to choke down some foods without a beverage? Not pleasant!

I have seen my SDA relatives eat, they are still eating an hour after most of us are done. They tried Weigh Down (weight loss program) with me but quickly found fault with it (because it addresses gluttony) and quit. The only good thing about it is...they are basically eating no fat by not eating dairy.

If they ate the amount they are used to eating of "real food", they would be even more obese than they are. (you know, they are making the food righteous, not themselves, by taking all the stuff they think is bad out of it. What about self control?) They don't exercise either!

Give me the real stuff, butter, bacon, cream but give it to me in normal amounts...not huge plates of it, and seconds and thirds! Maybe they eat so much b/c their bodies aren't getting the right nutrients?

Janice, I must have missed the post you are talking about. I don't know what you mean by all of it but I do know that a former SDA is on guard for being placed back under bondage. I am always on alert when people are talking to me about following the Law...I still have a hard time putting it in its proper place, but I am new at this.
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan and Colleen,

Thank you for your affirmations but I in no way want any one to think that they come from me it is all my Lord and Saviour.

The thing that I have said before and that I am in awe of is that only thru this post do we know one another and yet we are one in Christ, since we argree in what the Lord has convinced us of and that came from no other place than His Holy Unchangeable Word. We have not been taught by man we have been taught by The One and Only just as Peter was when Jesus said Blessed are you Simon Barjoni because flesh and blood has not revealed it do you but my Father in Heaven. Matthew 16:17. The first time I came across this verse in my intense study these last 4 years I was blown away because I also knew that No man had taught me and Praise God we now agree.

I love it, I just pray I could give it and I'm sure it is happening I just want it NOW. Carol
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Both of the posts that I mentioned were from February 9th. I had posted some information concerning omissions and changes found in the NIV and offered anyone interested several pages to study and Doug posted that he was "angry" with me and suggested that by my "insistence" that all use the KJV exclusively was trying to hang the law back around your necks, you can check my post and decide for yourself if I indeed was trying to "force" anything on anybody. I just got some facts and wanted to enlighten everyone, and I even had one hateful letter that told me to "get over it" and that was why I didn't post all week. I will say that the verse that he refers to about hanging the law back around a person's neck is found in the book of Galatians and is meant for people like EGW and others such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness, it is certainly not aimed at those of us who are trying to warn people of Satan's traps, after all, we are told that in the last days that people wouldn't be able to endure sound doctrine, and we are also warned that even satan can appear as an angel of light. This has nothing to do with trying to expose lies and warning people of what the Bible says about adding to or taking from God's word. It was never intended to force anyone into using the KJV but was posted as information for those who truly were trying to study the word. I fell under fire over my offer and was even told that I took things too seriously when I "thought" that I was being attacked. All I know was that it grieved my soul when all I wanted to do was help. I came to this forum to find information to help me to witness to my mother and sister and was accepted warmly until I decided to undertake a teaching of sorts. Guess I will keep most of that information to myself since I have no one requesting the information.

Just thought I would post to let you know what it was all about.

Janice at:cjlump@bellsouth.net
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Both of the posts that I mentioned were from February 9th. I had posted some information concerning omissions and changes found in the NIV and offered anyone interested several pages to study and Doug posted that he was "angry" with me and suggested that by my "insistence" that all use the KJV exclusively was trying to hang the law back around everybody's necks.

I will say that this verse that he refers to is found in the book of Galatians and is meant for people like EGW and others such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness and warns that anyone trying to make a person still live by the "LAWS" is in fact going to be cursed for doing such. The entire book of Galatians tells us that anyone that accepts the gift of salvation knows that they have been given liberty from the laws, not liberty to do as they please! Doesn't God say that he will write HIS laws into one's heart when he is adopted into the family? I used that verse once to witness to my sister when she started harping on what the "true" prophetess warned against. My argument is: Since I received Christ at the age of 11, why wasn't this Sabbath observance placed into my heart if it was of such utmost importance? I also asked her why God would let over 1800 years of history transpire before revealing it to EGW and not give his own disciples that priviligied information while they were walking and talking and learning from the master during his own lifetime on earth?

I never even heard of the SDAs until my sister got caught up in their lies and started passing them along as the "truth". Praise God, if we non-SDA Christians are all going to hell, you know that we really shouldn't worry to much about it because, according to EGW--hell isn't eternal anyway!!! I say that if one is "asleep" or unconscious as the SDAs teach, why even wake them up to consume them with eternal fire? Why not, as the old saying goes, let sleeping dogs lie? Why would he wake the damned to just turn around and evaporate them? I thought it was interesting too that one of you mentioned that EGW said somewhere that she actually talked with her "dead" husband. I guess a "true" prophet gets granted "special" privilieges that the rest of us common folk don't, huh?

Back to what I said about Galatians, those warnings have nothing to do with trying to expose lies and warning people of what the Bible says about adding to or taking from God's word,and my post was never intended to force anyone into using the KJV, even though I do indeed defend it, but was posted as information for those who truly were trying to study the word. I fell under fire over my offer of pages of omitted texts and such of the NIV and was even told that I took things too seriously when I "thought" that I was being attacked. All I know was that it grieved my soul when all I wanted to do was help.

I came to this forum to find information to help me to witness to my mother and sister and was accepted warmly until I decided to undertake a teaching of sorts. Guess I will keep most of that information to myself since I have no one requesting the information.

Just thought I would post to let you know what it was all about.

Janice:
cjlump@bellsouth.net
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here I am with my "double" posts again, sorry about that, can anyone explain to me why I keep doing a double of everything?

Janice
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

I have done it myself and I think it happens when we go to preview and then we don't think it is going to come up and then oopps there are 2.

When it happened to me someone deleted both of them so I guess they didn't want my 2 cents oh I mean 2 posts. Just kidding I have more important things to think about than the reason my posts were deleted.

No need to check into Colleen, it's OK, I just wanted to let Janice know that it happened to me too. I still have a little humor in me thru this all(SDA thing with son-in-law) and I suppose that's what keeps me going.

I was one girl in a family of 2 older brothers and 1 younger brother and let me tell you I learned early on to roll with the punches.

Sorry I'm out of control again. Sometimes I think a little bit of imformation makes us all closer.

Although we are all close in Christ this just brings us closer on this earth, Carol
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

I just have a question about your post about sin on Saturday February 15, the paragraph starting just remember that sin is still sin. My question is first I would like to ask 1. are all sins the same? 2. Is there a sin unto death? 3. What are we to do about sins that we see other believers commit?

This is the verse that comes to my mind as I try to decide these things.

I only ask so that we can share and thus learn together.

Love and Prayers, Carol
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another Carol,
Again, I am speaking of my post of February 9th. I had a rebuttal of sorts from Susan 2, here is her partial post that I copied and pasted: SO WHAT if a lesbian was on the translating committee?! Like, just because she's a lesbian you think she can't know anything about languages? Get real! Have you ever known any lesbians or homosexual men? Well, I'll tell you something about them-other than the sexual orientatoion THEY ARE JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE. This is one of my reasons for no longer worshipping with the Baptists because everytime they start in on their "hatred(?)" of certain other people they loose the love of Christ and are instead focused on how horrible, how awful someone else is. Give it up. Give it over to the Lord. Your attitude about faggots is not going to change one faggot in the least except if he/she is aware of your attitude then maybe will make then catagorise Christians based on your bad attitude and then for sure they won't want to come to Christ (And I would like to add there are many, many Christian homosexuals.) My former next door neighbors are lesbians. Karen is suffering terrible now and most likle won't live much longer because of her Muscular Distrophy. Both have told me they want to attend church so bad but they are treated so rudely at churches and even have been asked to not come back. I told them to try The United Church of Christ, which is a denomination I am very fond of. Unfortunatelly the closest United Church of Christ is around 20 miles from here and Karen is too sick to travel that far, even once week for church. Get over it. Start reading some other translations. The New Jerselem Bible is another favorite of mine. It happens to be very expensive but is well worth the money. Or, you can read it on the Internet. Just go to the official Catholic website and you can link to it. And then get out and find you some lesbian and faggot friends. You just might find the reading is good and the people are just like everyone else!

Carol, The point that I was making with my post today was the fact that in the book of Romans, Paul refers to homosexuality as a very major part of last day prophecy and to suggest that 'other than their sexual preferences, they are just like us'is just being ignorant of God's full word about the subject. Couldn't we in turn say that other than being a child molester or alcoholic or drug addict, etc. these people are just like us. Susan makes it sound like Baptists (my denominational affiliation) preach hate messages towards the homosexuals. The truth is that any Christian should be just as opposed to sin as Christ was, but we don't preach against the sinner we preach against the sin and God gives us the power to overcome any sin if we fully rely on him.

Even though Christ told the crowd "let him who is without sin cast the first stone," if we read the entire chapter, Jesus tells the woman to go and SIN no more, he didn't say that she was "just like everybody else" I just wonder what Susan means when she says just like everyone else for we have all sinned and fallen short of what God would have us to be. We also sin daily as Jesus expounded, to even think an evil thought of your brother is the same as murder or to think lustful thoughts of another man's wife is considered adultery, the list goes on but since all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for sound doctrine and correction, etc. won't you all agree that we are to warn those who are in blatant sin of the dangers of "thinking" you are saved?

I am sorry if I am offending anyone all over again, but we are told to warn people of the wrath of God to come and the Bible plainly says that he chastens his children, then why do some choose to look at the one line of scripture that says "judge not" and not finish the chapter?

Some people seem to be trying to put God in some kind of box and only allowing one character to show through, again I say to not see God as just and a rewarder of both good and evil is very narrow-minded of anyone. I guess I would ask Susan to describe to me exactly what a "Christian homosexual" is.

May I remind everyone of the verse found in II Timothy 2:5--Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

People can look and act religious but they deny that God has the power to change them and turn them from their SIN (not lifestyle, SIN)and God tells us that we are to turn away from such evil.
It is an evil that is prevalent now and was foretold several hundred years ago in the book of Romans along with all the other ungodliness and if we won't accept God's word as the final authority then we are not studying and "rightly dividing" are we? If this is hard-nosed "HATE" preaching then so be it!

The same kind of logic seems to run with many protestors that line up outside of prisons where an execution is about to take place with their little signs that read "thou shalt not kill". Don't they read ALL of God's words about execution that are found in both the old as well as the new testament? The book of Romans says that the government is an ordained office and the law is established to help us and says IF we are doing right then we shouldn't fear the law and goes on to say that HE gives his sword of wrath to the law givers to EXECUTE judgment. This same thing is mentioned in Leviticus where it describes the cities of refuge that were established to protect the innocent from vengeful relatives that sought an eye for an eye. If read in its entirety, we will see that if a murderer is actually found guilty that they are to be taken out and given over to these people so that vengance will be taken.

In closing, I hope this post clears up for you what I was in reference to. I do have homosexuals in my own family and have worked with many homosexuals all my life as well and have even gone to Piedmont Park in Atlanta, Georgia to witness to them (in a loving way)but the fact is that God calls it SIN, so, why shouldn't I? I think Susan's post was very presumptuous of her and didn't think that it even deserved a reply but that was what I was speaking about, so, pardon me again if I appear to be stirring up a hornet's nest, it was not my intention. It just appears that sometimes people just allow ONE thing in a post to stand out above the others and like they do with God's word, they choose to take text out of context. What was that you quoted Doug? Something about pretext, I can't remember now.

I probably have said too much again, as usual, but I will say this again, it is not my desire to fight, I want to study God's word and in turn try to enlighten everyone of the true importance of the day, the clock is ticking close to the midnight hour, so, we better get ready.

I passed by a church sign everyday last week on my way to work, and the sign read: Live your life today as if you will stand before God tomorrow. I want my works to be that of gold and silver and not of wood and stubble.

Carol, let me end this by saying that all three of your questions can be found in God's word and a good place to start would be in Ezekiel 33, it is an analogy telling us about our Christian duties, from what I can gather from this is that we are to let others know about what God has revealed to each of us. I am so sorry that some take me as a messenger of hate, but I have to turn that over to God with the faith of a mustard seed that my heart's intent will be revealed to everyone that has read any of my post.

I truly have compassion for all of you here in the forum and pray for you all who are still trying to reach SDA members just like I am. I don't want to stand before God and have him say that I didn't try my very best to reach out with the knowledge that he has given me, and I don't think that I am arrogant is saying this.

Janice
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

The statement I made is that "a text without context is a pretext for a prooftext." I think it is applicable here. You said:


Quote:

Carol, The point that I was making with my post today was the fact that in the book of Romans, Paul refers to homosexuality as a very major part of last day prophecy and to suggest that 'other than their sexual preferences, they are just like us'is just being ignorant of God's full word about the subject. Couldn't we in turn say that other than being a child molester or alcoholic or drug addict, etc. these people are just like us.




You are absolutely correct that Romans 1 speaks out against homosexuality--as well as a host of other sins that we tend to conveniently leave out. But, the full context of the passage (which includes Romans 1--3) concludes with the following statement in chapter 3 verse 9:


Quote:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.




God's Word is saying just that--we are no different than the homosexual (or any other sinner). God does not have "degrees" of sin. We are all shaped in iniquity from the moment of our conception and stand equally in need of salvation. When Paul specified different sins, he wasn't pointing these out as the "super sins." The point he was making was that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and therefore no one has room to judge another. We cannot desire mercy for ourselves without extending mercy to others, and we cannot pronounce judgement on others without reserving the same on ourselves.

I don't want to get into a debate with you, because I really do admire your passion for God's Word and your stand for righteousness. You did however say that you wanted to "learn" together, so I am simply sharing a different perspective. Just remember that none of us has ANY righteousness to offer except the perfect blood of Jesus which is capable of washing away ALL the sins of the world.

In His Grace

Doug
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Doug, I am not in the least offended at what you just said. It is late and 2:00 will be here in no time, so, goodbye for now.
Janice
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is sexual sin and then there is sexual orientation. The two are not the same. Sexual orientation identifies a person as hetrosexual, homosexual or other. To be fully functing sexually in alignment the external body, the internal body and the mental have to be in agreement. If only two of those three are not in agreement then we get a sexually different person then the rest of us out here who think of ourselves as the normal ones. Personally I have known several homosexuals and lesbians who are celebet because their Christian beliefs led them to believe sex outside of a hetrosexual marriage relationship is wrong so they hve accepted celebecy as their lot in life regarding tht one aspect of living. Yes, these people are fully Christian and truly homosexual because homosexual is not defined by if they are activelly involved with sexual relations with peple o the same gender, it is defined by sexual orientation. And, there is a big difference in my way ofthinking between even practicing homosexuals/lesbians and murders, child molesters and rapers, muggers, purse snatchers, and the like. The latter all ivolve innocent victums. The former involve consenting adults. In my studying I have learned that in every case that homosexuality is condemed in the Bible it is in reference to seul imorlity between two people of the same gender in pagan ceremonies that most often include some sort of rituals to heathen gods etc. I understand that homosexuality/lesbianism is not condemed Bibically between two consenting adults who are in love. However, my persoal opinion is those folks should just probably be celebet. Well maybe not ecessarilly the women because women have a very low risk of disease transfer but certanily the men should just practice abstanance because of diseae transission. Besides don't you all remember back in junior high age holding hands with your best girlfriends and hugging your girlfriends? A lot of that stuff is cultural. In Italy and in the Arab countries the men upon greeting each other will give each other a kiss on the cheek. It's not a homosexual thing at all, it is cultural. As far as my lesbian neighbors go, well, my children were young at the time that they were my neighbors and they truely the only folks in my neighborhood I felt comfortable with my children being babysat by. Most my neighbors were spun druggies and believe me if I had to leave the kids with someone for a breif amount of time I sure would have rather my stright, clean cut lesbian neighbors watch my kids than the neighbors that were so wacked out on meth that they were in a constant state of outerspace.
Richardtinker (Richardtinker)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol,

Your posts have never been deleted--unless you were posting in the test area--where there is only a limited amount of space available. When the maximum is reached, older posts are automatically removed.

Richard
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, the Bible does not condone homosexuality between consenting adults. It says quite plainly that it is forbidden.

At the same time, a homosexual, as Doug pointed out, is no greater a sinner than is any of us. We are equally born into sin and condemned to death. The particular nature of our sins is immaterial to God. We are born with dead souls which need to be brought to life by the new birth, and our sins are equally heinous to him.

The miracle is that Jesus saves us IN OUR SINS, whatever they happen to be. After we are saved, the Holy Spirit never stops convicting us and empowering us to surrender our sinful habits to Him so he can cleanse of of them.

Praise God for the Holy Spirit and for new life!

Colleen
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 7:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HERE IS THE LATEST POST FROM MY BROTHER...IS HE RIGHT?

There are three basic covenants that apply to the subject of salvation. (1) The Everlasting Covenant that was established in the Garden of Eden and was concieved before the world was created. (2) The Old Covenant that was instituted at Sinai and didn't last more than a few days. This covenant was a lessonbook to demonstrate once and for all that no one would ever work their way into the kingdom of God. (3) The New Covenant which is exactly what the Everlasting Covenant was except that it is expressed after the fact of Christ's sacrifice instead of before it.

All of these covenants include the Law of God as summarized in the Ten Commandments. The fact that they were written at Sinai doesn't mean that they didn't exist before Sinai. If that were the case, Cain didn't sin when he killed his brother. The Law of God was given to man, writtten in stone, lived by Christ and is offered to be written on the hearts of all true believers.

Granted the Ten Commandments, in letter, represent only the beginning steps in the developement of a Christlike character. In Spirit, the Ten Commandments represent the fullfilment of the law. Allow me to illustrate...

First Commandment: The letter of the law, "You shall have no other Gods before me". To keep the letter of the law, we need only abstain from overt worship of false gods. In the Spirit of the law, however, we will reverence God in our minds and allow that reverence to be reflected in every action of our existence.

Second Commandment: The letter of the law, "You shall not make idols". In order to be in compliance with the letter of the law we need only abstain from the production of images for worship. But in the Spirit of the law, we will find such a concept so repugnant that it would never even enter our thoughts. And, if the tempter brings it to our minds, we will dismiss it with the utmost haste and disdain.

Third Commandment: The letter of the law, "You shall not take My name in vain." To adhere to the letter of the law we will need only keep from using the various names of God in a profane manner. The Spirit of the law, however, requires a much different standard. The Spirit requires that we so reverence his name that we live our lives as brides who have taken His name and we fear lest we bring reproach upon His name by our actions.

Fourth Commandment: The letter of the law, "Keep my Sabbath holy." To fullfil the letter of the law, we must refrain from self serving behavior and spend our time waiting for the clock to reach "Our Time" again. The Spirit of the law will find such behavior nothing but reprehensible. The Spirit of the law recognizes that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day and the Sabbath was made for man (not the Jew). The Spirit also knows that the Sabbath is the Lord's Day. It is a special time in which God (Jesus) has set aside 24 hours to be with us in a more meaningful way than at any other time of the week. The Spirit of the law will not miss this awesome opportunity to be with our Savior in a closer walk than is possible any other time.

Fifth Commandment: The letter of the law, "Honor parents". To fullfil this law we need only pay "Lip service" to our progenitors). The Spirit will, of course, require genuine love to not only be displayed but felt at the very core of our existence.

Sixth Commandment: The letter..."Don't murder". All that is necessary to fullfil the letter of the law is simply to put up with people sufficient enough that we don't kill them. Christ, of course, told us the Spirit of this part of the law when He said, "If we hate we are murderers."

Seventh Commandment: The letter..."No adultery." To fullfil the letter of this law we need only refrain from extra-marital intercourse. Christ again tells us that the Spirit of the law invloves what is happening in our minds as well as our bodies.

Eighth Commandment: The letter... "Don't steal." The letter of the law isn't difficult to comprehend. The Spirit will not even allow us to covet.

Ninth Commandment: The letter..."Don't bear false witness." Again, the letter is easy to discern but the Spirit will require us to make positive use of our communication and not be satisfied with merely refraining from the negative use of the same.

Tenth Commandment: This commandment really leads us into an understanding that there is more to the law than meets the eye. It would be difficult to believe that there is a way to fullfil the letter of this part of the law. "Don't Covet" really opens us up to the idea that it isn't our actions that matter to God. As a matter of fact, God doesn't even look at what we do, He only looks at why we do it. The purpose of the law is to lead us to this "jumping off" place into the world of Faith. That doesn't mean that we can throw away the structure that got us here. Our adherence to the structure that God provides (As opposed to our own logical processes) is the measure of our faith in His wisdom, His love, His involvement in our day to day welfare. Consider that this commandment actually plays into all of the other commandments. I'll use the fourth commandment to illustrate. God has claimed one seventh of our time for His purposes. Do we covet that time for our own use?

Much time, energy, and genius has been devoted to explaining away our need to live as God has told us to live. If it were possible to set aside God's law, it would not have been necessary for Christ to die. When Christ said, "I have not come to destroy the law but to fullfil it." We must see that fullfilling the law doesn't mean to destroy it. Christ was telling us the very same thing that Paul re-enforces in Romans chapter six and in Galations chapter five. It is Christ's intention and profound hope for all of His followers; that they too will allow His law to be fullfilled in them. He has done everything necessary to provide us with the power to live in opposition to the kingdom of Lucifer.

People who live in opposition to the law of God are living in support of the kingdom of Lucifer. Just as there was no place found for Lucifer and his followers in heaven, there will be no place found for his followers from planet earth. That doesn't mean that our efforts will produce our salvation. It means that our salvation has produced God's efforts in our lives.

Lot's wife was looking at a lifesyle that was in opposition to the law of God. She refused to put that out of her mind and look forward to a lifestyle that was exemplified in the life of Christ.

Christ's words, "It is finished" refer to His struggle for our salvation. They can't by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is now acceptable in God's eyes that we live without law. Think about it!

In Israel there were sanitary laws, ceremonial laws, laws of equity, health laws and moral laws. Christ life and death didn't fullfil sanitary laws, health laws, laws of equity or moral laws. His life only fullfilled ceremonial laws.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Pheeki,

He is so VERY wrong. His letter is so thoroughly infused with Ellen White that it is hard to see the Bible in it.

First: There is NO COVENANT made at creation. That is a figment of EGWís imagination. NOT ONE VERSE exists in the ENTIRE BIBLE pointing to a ìcreation covenant.î

There are, however, verses that plainly state that the Ten Commandments were established at Sinai and NOT BEFORE SINAI!


Quote:

Exodus 34:28
[28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.





Quote:

Deuteronomy 4:14
[13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.




Then, having made ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that the covenant made at Sinai IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, we see this:


Quote:

Deuteronomy 5:2,3
[2] The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb(Sinai).
[3] The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day




So, Pheekiís brother, the ten commandments DID NOT EXIST before Sinai, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. If you wish to propose that they (the ten commandments) existed before that time, you must make Moses, The Bible, and GOD to be LIARS.

You can read verses and chapters before and after these quotes, they will say the same. You can look up the entire original Hebrew language; they will say the same.
You can look throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE, and NOTHING WILL CONTRADICT THIS FACT.
Furthermore, there are several other verses that support this understanding throughout the Old and New Testaments.

Your brother said:

Quote:

Christ's words, "It is finished" refer to His struggle for our salvation. They can't by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is now acceptable in God's eyes that we live without law. Think about it!




Sorry, Pheekiís brother, you do NOT make your points by using ìad populumî arguments. There are several places in the New Testament (Covenant) that say the Law is abolished, faded, and fulfilled. I will cite them if you canít find them.

The ëceremonial lawí is NEVER SEPARATED from THE LAW in the Bible. That is PURE EGW. Sorry, no such distinction was made about the fulfillment Christ accomplished at the Cross OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE BIBLE.


Quote:

People who live in opposition to the law of God are living in support of the kingdom of Lucifer.




Shame on you for judging your sister where God makes no such judgment. Pheeki, to my knowledge, has never opposed the will of God. She has embraced the New Covenant declared by Jesus at the Last Supper and ratified by HIS BLOOD.

You, Pheekiís brother, are in opposition to the Gospel. You, Pheekiís brother, are preaching ìanother Gospel.î You, Pheekiís brother, are adding to Godís Word. Be careful.

I will leave you with this:


Quote:

Second Corinthians 3:1-18
[1] Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
[2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
[4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
[9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
[11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
[12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
[17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(rant, rant, rant)

Furthermore, you have perverted the meaning of Romans Chapter 6, which clearly says we are NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE.

You ignore the meaning of Galatians, which is an ENTIRE BOOK devoted to telling us why we are NOT UNDER THE LAW.


Quote:

In Israel there were sanitary laws, ceremonial laws, laws of equity, health laws and moral laws. Christ life and death didn't fullfil sanitary laws, health laws, laws of equity or moral laws. His life only fullfilled ceremonial laws.




Says WHAT VERSE? This is a leap in logic no verse can support.


Quote:

. . . not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.




Look up the Greek words, the word translated as fulfill has the added meanings of complete and finish.


Quote:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.





Quote:

Hebrews 8:8-13
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.




They are talking about the TEN COMMANDMENTS vanishing away here.

Hear Godís Holy Word!
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki,
I have to agree with Jerry. Your brother's letter is infused with EGW as well as his own attempts to make sense out of a distorted belief system.

If you are going to continue a dialogue with him, I suggest you establish some ground rules. Ask him to provide scriptural references for any of his arguments (i.e. the creation covenant)--something that is sorely missing in his last e-mail to you. Then, you should become like the Bereans, and check it out. Go back and read the passage(s) he quotes in context.

Allow me to give you some tips on being a Berean. Make sure you get the setting for the book he makes reference to (i.e. the book of Hebrews was written to Jewish converts who, because of intense persecution, were in danger of returning to Judiasm)--you can find this information in any good study Bible. Then you should read the chapers surrounding that particular passage. Sometimes, it may be helpful to read the entire book. Read as much as is necessary for you to determine exactly what it is the writer was talking about when he stated the referenced scripture.

Don't allow him to use the typical "shotgun" approach, which is to give you a list of ten or twelve passages. The goal of this method is to overwhelm you with the shear number of passages that speak to a particular topic, and discourage you from actually looking them up. Usually, it is a string of proof texts. Instead, require him to narrow it down to one or two substantial passages of scripture that deal specifically with the topic at hand. He shouldn't have any trouble doing that, but I give you fair warning that he will resist. He will argue that you have to use the entire Bible--of course I would counter that you have to use the entire Bible "responsibly."

After you have studied these one or two substantial passages of scriptures, then you will be equipped to go back and have an intelligent dialogue with him. In many cases, you will find that those passages were not saying what he was attempting to make them say. Give him the chance to give you one or two more substantial passages of scripture to support the same topic.

By this time, he will be somewhat gunshy, because he realizes that you are not just going to take whatever he says at face value. It will force him to assess the foundation of what he believes and it will solidify your understanding of what you believe as well.

Finally, I will tell you that Adventists are notorious for what I call "speculation theology." Your brother gives a great example of it in his letter. He says:


Quote:

All of these covenants include the Law of God as summarized in the Ten Commandments. The fact that they were written at Sinai doesn't mean that they didn't exist before Sinai. If that were the case, Cain didn't sin when he killed his brother. The Law of God was given to man, writtten in stone, lived by Christ and is offered to be written on the hearts of all true believers.




At this point, you are supposed to say, "yeah, you're right, I never thought about that." The problem with that method is that the story of Cain and Abel was not dealing with law at all. Every text has a primary teachinging, and other possible secondary teachings. In the case of Cain and Abel, the primary teaching of this passage is found in Genesis 4:2-5, which says:


Quote:

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD . 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.




The passage is about our offerings to God. Do we as stewards, return to God from what he has provided, or do we stubbornly choose as owners to exercise sovereign authority, and return to him from the fruit of our own labor. It has nothing to do with the existence of the law.

If he is going to make a theological statement about the existence of the Law prior to Siani, he should be able to point to a specific passage pf scripture that has this as its primary teachings. He also needs to be prepared to deal with passages of scripture that teach the exact opposite, like Galatians 3:


Quote:

17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.




or Romans 5:


Quote:

14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.




I guess my bottom line is that you should not accept any person's theological assertions at face value--not even any of us on this forum. That is something we all learned to do in Adventism. We were good at parroting what we had heard from others, but very few of us ever took the time to study it out for ourselves. It appears that even though your brother is a Pastor, he has fallen into the same trap.

In His Grace

Doug
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right on Jerry, Thank you for your Bible based knowledge and any one who knows that they recieved their salvation from Christ and Him alone will understand the Bible only on these issues and I might add know when someone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Those of us who have accepted that spirit that was left to each and every one of us in Acts 2 know deception when we see it because of 1 John5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God. I know without a shadow of a doubt that i believe that Jesus is the Son of God and I know exactly why He sent His son. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and that whosoever believeth in Him should NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. Pheeki's Brother; tell God that He didn't say all He should have when His
Son was doing all that My Father tells me. I'm not going there, I 'll stay with the Words of the Book God gave me to learn from and I would say I pray you would also. God gave us words to secure our salvation and they were not the 10 commandments. Let it be on record that you have been told and it was from the Word of God that even a child can understand not something that needs to be fabricated to present in the way you and your prophetess want.

Pheeki's Brother I would in the name of Jesus and in all truth tell me where you find scripture for the things you have printed since I have failed to see scripture quoted. You may get by with that with some people who are Bible illiterate but I would say to that; God forbide.


Again Pheeki's Brother You have a sister who is searching diligently for the truth of God's word and I would not want to be in your shoes and stand before God when He might ask why didn't you tell your dear sister what my Father told me and I gave you thru the Bible, being a minister of that precious Word of God. I might add it is: Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. I know you know where the scripture is.

My heart aches for you that live in such bondage that you cannot enjoy the marvelous freedom God has bestowed upon us to live in harmony with all God's children. Read the verse in Galations3:28 without interpretion from another man/woman. There is neither Jew nor Greek , slave or free,male nor female for we are all ONE in Christ.

Now go to 2 Corinthians 3: and find out how to be one in Christ. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. This was something that I found out all by my self after being in intense study of the Bible and the Bible alone

May the spirit of the eternal God be with you
Carol

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