| Author | Message | ||
| Violet |
In Luke 8 a man is possessed with demons. Jesus approaches the man and the demons beg Jesus not to command them into the abyss, instead they ask to be put into the near by swine. They go into the swine and the swine go into the river and drown. Ok now my questions. I was always taught the demons were fallen angels. If that is so they why would the demons need to posess something such as a man or pig. Why could they not just take the form of an angel? What is the abyss? Does this mean that hell is a literal place? When the pigs drowned did he demons drown with the pigs or were they released from the pigs to go back to being evil angels (if that is what they are). Death and hell are my area I am trying to understand right now. I wondered if demons could be the soul of evil dead people. Please don't laugh I am so confused right now and have no one local I can talk to and trust. thank you VI | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Violet, Revelation 12:8-10 says that the Devil has angels who were kicked out of heaven with him. So it's quite likely that the demons are those who got kicked out of heaven with him. I think the demons possessed people because they're evil and wanted to torment them. In most of the exorcisms, the demons were making the afflicted person do some awful things like throwing themselves into fire, living near graves and cutting themselves, etc. I don't think they *needed* human or animal bodies, they just used them to torture people, and probably to make things hard on Jesus, seeing His children suffering at the demons' hands. I doubt that the demons drowned. If they are angels, they're "spirits" (Heb. 1:14) so I'm inclined to think that they're beyond physical harm. In fact, they probably wouldn't have made people do cut themselves and such while possessed if the demon could feel the pain too. I've always wondered about the Abyss too. Anyone else who can offer help on that would be appreciated. Hope I was able to help! Chuck | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Violet: There is no room or reason for laughing in your question. It is also a very serious and fair question. Let me attempt to respond. Evil spirits and demon-possessed people are a common occurrence in my country where the RICH, the VERY RICH follow afro-catholic deities (a mixture of Catholicism with pagan deities worshipped in ancient Africa accepted and welcome by the Roman church). I had to deal with such a thing many times in our Churches in Brazil. (It is no different than the New Age followers of America of our days). You ponder: I was always taught the demons were fallen angels. Yes they are. If that is so they why would the demons need to posess something such as a man or pig Demons are spirits that need a body to function. Why could they not just take the form of an angel? Demons are NOT ALL POWERFUL and need God's permission to function. That includes the form they take. Paul speaks of demons that disguise into "angels of light". Also angels (messengers) who are allowed to "slap" his servants as with Paul. What is the abyss? Does this mean that hell is a literal place? Yes, just as literal as heaven. The Bible refers to a place called hell the same way, shape and form that it refers to heaven. Plus, it was not their time yet to be thrown in the bottomless pit. When the pigs drowned did he demons drown with the pigs or were they released from the pigs to go back to being evil angels (if that is what they are). They became spirits again to act upon the spirit world ("heavenlies" as in Ephesians). To act more directly in the earth, they need a body or at least, an agent. I wondered if demons could be the soul of evil dead people. No. The souls of dead people are in hell. Demons are not the same. I have scriptures to support the above but I will wait to see the need to publish them. This is a former SDA forum. As such, a different teaching of "death" and "hell" is commonly accepted. Perhaps I should wait so as not to cause another unecessary battle. I am not a man pleaser, but perhaps it pleases God just to wait for nowÖ Grace Ambassador | ||
| Violet |
Grace, If you do not want to start a debate on the forum would you e-mail them to me? My addy is robtami@prodigy.net I am a former Adventist but that just means ( to me anyway) that I am just confussed and starting all over again after 35 years. Do you think that those souls in hell are aware of what is going on now or are they like a floppy disk that needs a computer (body) to come to life? Thanks Vi | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Violet! Thank you for giving me this opportunity of corresponding with you. I will try to answer here for a while. May be later we will have to change our discussion to a private conversation. Your questions are very important. Many Christians today, mature as they can be, ignore "demonology". We face demonic influence today in the RELIGIOUS WORLD more than in any other time in history. The same is true in WASHINGTON D.C. and in every major center of decision in the world. Subjective beliefs with no objective demonstration on one side and objective demonstration with no Biblical pattern are present today in just about every instance of the system we call "christianism." Now, your concerns: First THE DEMONS in hell are allowed a bit of information about what is going on here. The parable of the rich and Lazarus speaks about it. I know that the SDA tell us that this is a parable, therefore not worthy of doctrinal value, but I believe it would be a anathema to agree that Jesus used a bad story, thus a bad example, or a simple parable, with no "theological" or "eternal" consequences to make a point. It is clear that Jesus used a parable like in so many other occasions, to teach us a principle. Demons and the souls of those whom they imprisoned can know some of what goes on here on the earth. Perhaps as part of their punishment, I mean, eternal punishment. Demons operate in the earth by: 1. Exercising influence on people - John 13:1-2 2. the above progresses into full possession - John 13: 27 3. using agents here on the earth - Ephesians 6:12 Today demons are in the same REALM where the Spiritual blessings are available to us: -Ephesians 1:3; compare it with Ephesians 3:10 and Ephesians 6:12. The term for "high places" is the same as "in the heavenlies" or in the "heavenly places". The "heavenlies" are the REALM where we wage spiritual warfare. God has given us a weapon and an armor to wage such a battle. As we pray, and make use of the weapon and the armor that God has placed at our disposal, according to the instructions of Paul, we win the battle. Then neither the devil nor his demons can keep us from walking toward the blessedness that is already ours. The scripture of John above demonstrates that the devil needed a Judas to perpetrate his work. It is noteworthy, however, that NOTHING DURING THE TIME PRECEDING THE CRUCIFIXION OR THE CRUCIFIXION ITSELF WAS OUT OF JESUS CONTROL. God NEVER gave up His Sovereignty: not in creation, not in redemption not in the end times! Read John 12:23 and compare it with John 2:4 ("now it is not the time, "now it is the time"). THIS IS AN INDICATION THAT IN NO INSTANCE THE devil AND HIS demons WERE IN CONTROL OR HAVE THE POWER TO CONTROL EVENTS. THE CONTROL THEY POSSESS IS SUBJECT TO THE ULTIMATE POWER OF GOD. ONE DAY, EVEN DEMONS, TO THEIR CONDEMNATIONS, WILL DECLARE JESUS AS THE LORD. Paul says in 1 Cor 2:7-8-9 that if the "princes of this world" (a reference to the devil and also the religious leaders of those days)knew of the results of the crucifixion, they WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY. Verse 7 says that this was the "hidden Wisdom of God" ordained before the foundation of the world which proves that God never gave up His Sovereignty on the matters concerning the crucifixion and its ETERNAL BENEFITS. This means that the devil had no control of or on events, or even knew of the results of the crucifixion! Paul says in Ephesians 4: 26-32 "give NO place to the devil". Sometimes the devil can be permitted to work through us through some doors we leave open and the text is in context with bitterness, poor relationships, corrupt communication (rotten fish in the Greek), grieving the Holy Spirit and shouting at each other. Again, the devil IS NOT in control but his actions are being permitted. I will stop for now. You asked me what time it is and I told you how to build a watch. I hope it helps anyway. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Colleentinker |
Violet, good questions! And good answers, Grace Ambassador. Yes, Violet, I have come to believe, after studying it in the Bible over a couple of years, that hell is real and the abyss is real. Revelation 20 talks about Satan being bound in the abyss for a thousand years so he couldn't tempt people during the millenium. The abyss is not hell, but, apparently, a place where the wicked dead go to wait for hell. It's also a place where God can send the demons. Yes, demons are evil angels, and they do inhabit humans to do direct, personal attacks on the earth. Also, the parable of Lazarus in heaven and the rich man in hell cannot be completely made up. Jesus, as our pastor pointed out and as Grace Ambassador pointed out above, would not make up a false story to teach a truth. God doesn't manipulate data like that to get us to comply with him. We really don't know exatly what state the souls of the dead are in: conscious and writhing, etc. We do know that eternal life means never being separated from God's love, and eternal death must mean the opposite, never being able to bridge the gap back to God. As the parable of Lazarus in heaven says, no one can come back from the dead to warn the living. There is a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell (spiritual life and death) and physical life and death. Furthermore, we don't know exactly what hell will be or will look like. Just as we cannot imagine what it will be like to have resurrection bodies and be unlimited by time, able to move freely in eternity, just so we cannot visualize hell unlimited by time. Hell may be a spiritual reality in a different dimension, far away from God, but eternal nonetheless. In short, Violet, I believe evil spirits are evil angels; they can perform more personal attacks if they have access to a body (possess a person); the abyss is real--it is not hell, but it is a holding place for those destined for hell; Hell is not just a metaphor; it is eternal, but we don't know exactly what it will be like or "where" it is in eternity. It is not limited to three dimensions. I understand your confusion and questions. I experienced them, too! Ask God to direct your study of this subject. He will help you understand what he wants you to know. He gives us truth! Praising God for truth, Colleen | ||
| Joni |
Violet, It is amazing to me how much as former adventists we have to undo and the struggles and anguish we go through because of what we have been taught. I am praying for you as you seek the Lord and His truth. May He bless you abundantly with so much more than you can grasp. I appreciate the answers of Grace Am. and Colleen. I am totatly amazed at what there is to learn. One very good book I have read recently is called "SPIRITUAL WARFARE FOR EVERY CHRISTIAN" It is by Dean Sherman. He is from YWAM (youth with a mission) I was totally amazed about the warfare that goes on. This has to do with what Grace Am. said about the influence of demons. In other countries they know about demon possession. We here in America think it is some fairy tale. It's not guys. Its as real as our fleshly bodies, but, in the spiritual relm. One thing that I did learn is that satan and his angels are like bugs we can squash once we understand that they have only power as we let them have. In other words a big reason to walk by the Spirit and in God's truth is because once we wander they start to control. But with our "gifts" and warfare according to Ephsians we do not have to let them. We can be strong in the Lord. We have been given great tools to do the Lord's work. Not for our glory but for God's. If there are holes in the gates the enemey enters. We need to repair all the holes in our gates, (lives). We are to pray for our leaders, etc. 1Tim. The enemey really trys to get leaders. Think of the effect if one pastor is deceived, their are hundreds of people decieved with him. Or one youth leader, or one parent. Or the president! What happens when a husband and wife argue about church and God, etc.? What happens when people in the church want "their way" and the split comes? What happens when we fight people????? It's not about people. Its about distracting us from doing our work of preaching the Gospel, teaching and healing in Jesus name. Its about dragging us down, and fighting the "Church" (The called out ones) We are to pray for God's will to be done here on earth. His will is in His word. If more of us prayed for His will to be done in our lives and those we pray for we would see change. Anyway, what a great God we have. I am so thankful for His Son Jesus Christ, who did not leave us with out a way of escape. I am thankful that when I call upon Him in my time of need He answers. I am thankful that because of His great and wonderful love for me I am not left powerless. Joni | ||
| Draper |
Hello, to all of you! This topic is of great interest to me--I have been newly exposed to Adventist. Never even heard of them three months ago. I've found most of the beliefs shocking (some of them laughable) and wondered how in the world they ever found them in the Bible. I always believed that hell was eternal, conscious state. I was amazed to find out that Adventist believe that you get all burned up and not only that you only burn for as long as your sins were bad. If you weren't too bad then you don't burn long and if you were really a bad one then you burn a little longer! Where in the Bible, did this group of people get that idea? And, is there a text that says that hell is an eternal, conscious state? I do agree with the above comments about demons. There everywhere. We'd probably die from shock if we had a glimpse at all of those evil beings floating around us. I look forward to your replies. I don't question the fact that people who reject Christ go to hell when they physically die; I just want some Biblical answers to how eternal and conscious hell is to them when they arrive. Is there any? | ||
| Kelly |
Isaiah 14:9-11 speaks of a conscious state of the unbeliever after physical death. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I was taught that this passage was about the death of Belshazzar in 539 BC. And, the rest of thc chapter relates the fate of Satan, the judgement on Assyrian, Chaldea and Judeah. All those who reject Christ have the same fate. Is this a correct interpretation? Kelly | ||
| Graceambassador |
Kelly: I think you are correct! Compare 1 Peter 3:18-20, Ephesians 4:8-10. Without going into the different and aberrant interprtation of theses texts,(as "probation after death or second chance after death") these texts identify people that were in a "conscious state" after death. The evidence is the fact that they could be "preached to" and "lead as captives away from captivity". The POSITIVE reverse is that Paul said that: "I'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord". Read it in context starting in verse 16 of chapter 4. Paul is really speaking about being "consciously and aware in the presence of the Lord" immediately after leaving his body... And this, my dear brethren, is the DESTINY OF US, THE SAVED ONES! Praise God! I hope this helps! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Colleentinker |
Welcome, Draper. There is no Biblical evidence for the idea that people will burn for lengths of time dependent upon the extent of their sins. That idea is from Ellen White. It is a great relief to me to know that the part of me that knows Jesus will NEVER be separated from him; when I physically die, that part of me will be with Him immediately. Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
That is a comfort isn't it, Colleen. And having security in salvation is a comfort too. I was terrified of death frankly in all my years. It wasn't until I discovered security in Christ this last year that fear of death left me. We just had an SDA friend die last week, and for me it was like reliving and regrieving this whole leaving SDAism, and what happens at death. I found myself on waves for the week going which is right? Who is right? I guess it's still part of this leaving/grieving process. I didn't expect myself to feel so tossed. Spiritual warfare of course but I did not fair well. But I know I never had comfort at death as an SDA and to me knowing that I will be with Jesus first thing is very wonderful and freeing to me and comforting. | ||
| Sherry2 |
That is a comfort isn't it, Colleen. And having security in salvation is a comfort too. I was terrified of death frankly in all my years. It wasn't until I discovered security in Christ this last year that fear of death left me. We just had an SDA friend die last week, and for me it was like reliving and regrieving this whole leaving SDAism, and what happens at death. I found myself on waves for the week going which is right? Who is right? I guess it's still part of this leaving/grieving process. I didn't expect myself to feel so tossed. Spiritual warfare of course but I did not fair well. But I know I never had comfort at death as an SDA and to me knowing that I will be with Jesus first thing is very wonderful and freeing to me and comforting. | ||
| Kelly |
How do we know if something in the Bible is only to be taken as symbolic? Are we to take Scripture literally unless we are told it is symbolic? Can something be symbolic in Scripture and the symbolism not be revealed in the Scripture? Recently, a friend has gotten rather put out with me because I don't accept certain things in Scripture as symbolic. I agree that there are lots of symbols in the Bible, however, the things that are symbolic are described in great detail and the symbolism is always revealed, right? | ||
| Draper |
Grace Ambassador, Do you believe that there is a second chance after death? If so, would you go into it a little further. I understood those texts in 1 Peter to be related to angels--is this incorrect? | ||
| Violet |
Grace, I cannot see there being a second chance after death. If that were so then we would have a part in earning our salvation instead of it being finished at the cross. VI | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Draper! No! I do not believe there is a second chance after death; I referred to such a teaching as "aberrant". Perhaps I should say "heresy". Some of the theologians I read, such as Spyros Zodiates, maintain that the word "preach" from "kerigma" in the Greek may not refer to the preaching of the Gospel only. Jesus could be announcing to the "spirits in prison" His own victory... I do not know... Please, mention to me the basis for believing they are angels... You may have a good line of thought to follow here! Here is why: There are some Bible students who believe that the offspring of the relationship between the "sons of God and the daughters of man", or the Nephilin. Many believe that these people are the "unelect". Note that Jesus said of the last days: "as it was in the days of Noah..." This is why I think you may have a good line of thought here. My question would be "why would Jesus preach (whatever He may have preached) to these people in eternal prison? There is "earthly" reports today of people who claim to have had sexual relations with demonic beings. I myself heard a few that made the hair on my left toe to rise... If these reports are caused by an overdose of budweiser (budstupidier), mixed with a couple of bottles of whisky, I do not know... I just know that Jesus said "as it was in the days of Noah..." By the way, I heard a known Baptist theologian on TV say that the "extra terrestrial" beings that people are seeing today are actually demons. He claims "as it was in the days of Noah... these beings are trying to spoil even more God's crown of creation, MANKIND, in an attempt to produce a race IMMUNE to the Gospel who ultimately will rule with the antichrist... A long shot but a good thought. This theologian also proved that NO EARLY CHURCH FATHER knew of any other interpretation of the NEPHILIN as it is described in the Bible. I never shut off these "apparent crazy" people as long as they show me a Biblical reasoning. A year ago, I laughed at an Eschatology expert for saying that the Catholics and the Muslims meet in the Lady of Fatima. Fatima is the name of Mohamed's niece who will ultimately return to earth and prophecy wonders (if memory serves me correctly). The Lady of Fatima pronounced many "secret" prophecies held as HOLY by the Catholics. I laughed as I said, but early this year the Catholic Pope was in the Middle East proclaiming that we Christians and the Muslim worship the same God. He also had some secret meetings with the Muslim leadership and he, the pope, is supposed to reveal one of the dearest secrets of the Lady of Fatima really soon... Some Catholics that I talk to (real practicing Catholics) tell me that this "secret" will be the ultimate merging of Christianity with other religions... WHAT A BABYLON IT WILL BE! Nevertheless, this type of Babylon is prophesied in the Bible... So, do not put off a crazy proposition... Perhaps that TV eschatology expert was not crazy after all... Just to provoke some thought and make people think that I am probably on something... and also, because I have nothing better to do!(chuckles) Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Violet: SORRYYYYY! APPARENTLY I MADE A BIG MESS! I CALLED "ABERRANT" THE AFTER DEATH PROBATION DOCTRINE WHERE I SHOULD HAVE PLAINLY STATED "HERETICAL" AND WRONG! NO I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A SECOND CHANCE AFTER DEATH NOT FOR US NOT FOR OUR ANCESTORS!!! I DO ASK HOWEVER, FOR ALL TO READ THAT POST AGAIN! I DID NOT SAY THAT I ACCEPT THESE DOCTRINES, BUT ADMIT NOT BEING CLEAR AS TO WHETHER I REJECT THEM! WELL, I DO REJECT THEM! I PRAY THAT THIS CLEARS THE AIR! I am crazy but not stupip! (chuckles...) | ||
| Colleentinker |
I have heard the 1 Peter text explained that Jesus went to the evil angels (demons) in Hades--the place of death--to declare his victory to them. No, there is no second chance after death. That 1 Peter text is enigmatic, to say the least, but it does seem to suggest that Jesus did declare himself to someone during the time of his death. The explanation of his declaring victory to demons who had been at work in the world during the time of Noah makes sense to me. But please don't hear me as being "married" to this interpretation. Violet, regarding symbolism in the Bible--more and more I'm seeing that the Bible can be read quite literally, especially if one is studying inductively and seeing what the whole Bible says about a subject. That being said, more and more I'm finding that events that happened at one time, while quite literal, were foreshadowing bigger truths or events. For example, Samson was a miracle baby like John the Baptist. He was a Nazarite from before birth, but apparently he never honored any part of his Nazarite vow except not cutting his hair. He was ungodly and had a problem with pagan women. He never lived as an Israelite, let alone a Nazarite. Yet God accomplished his purpose through him, and he's listed in Hebrews 11. Go figure. He was completely ungodly until the very end of his life. He never honored God. But think of Israel. God foretold and miraculously generated Israel. Israel was set apart before its inception for God's purposes. Israel never served God properly, and continued to have a problem with pagan alliances. Yet God accomplished his purposes through Israel, not because of Israel's godliness, but in spite of its ungodliness. God accomplished his purposes through Israel because He is sovereign, and he chose Israel to be his people. Just like Samson. Just like us. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Draper |
GA, Didn't mean to imply that you believe in a "second chance" after death; I just found it unclear in your post; my post was basically asking for clarification and Biblical text if the "second chance" was your position. Thanks. Concerning those that Christ ministered to in Hades--I have heard that these were the angels that had sexual relations with humans prior to the flood. This was described to me as an attempt by Satan to create an entire race that was half-angelic/half-human thereby disabling Christ to be born of man. If the human race could have been contaminated completely then Christ would have had no "all human" lineage to have been born of. I don't know if my description is helpful. I will have to dig for the Biblical text to support it and I do not have time for that right now. Maybe just knowing what I was taught will give you enough to recall certain Scriptures to mind that you are familiar with that I can not easily locate. |
