| Author | Message | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
I found it interesting that someone posting their story new to the Forum, was upset because the SDA church did not take a stand on abortion. I have found it interesting (has anyone else) that just about everyone that is into Pro-Life is also for Capital Punishment and against their children receiving sex education by anyone other than themselves. In the very conservative PCA church that I attend, the leader of the Pro-Life ministry was upset when his teenage daughter was asked by her doctor if she was sexually active. Also, they are very pro Capital Punishment. I am curious what would have happened in the early Christian church is Saul (one we now know as Paul) had receive a jail sentence or capital punishment for his role in killing the Christians. Wouldn't our Bible's be a little different. I asked my Senator who attends my church if his daughter were raped would he want her to have a D and C so the child would not go to term. He said he would encourage her to take the product of this rape to term. Additionally, I heard Jerry Falwell bragging about all the products of incest that they had saved. Does anyone else have a problem with this? Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Ok, All of you. I have read some of the Archives and I know I probably am in the minority on this, but are we being intellectually honest. Is God really Pro-life when he destroys a man for touching the Holy Ark of the Covenant with good intentions to stablize it. Is he Pro-life if we believe he creates some to be destroyed for his glory. Maybe God is Pro-life in the minds of most Evangelicals because they believe in an eternal (non-consuming Hell). Wow!!! Thats a weird thought!!!! Some of you long time contributors, why are you avoiding the discussion. Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, very stimulating thread, thanks! I'd like to jump in but I'm awfully busy with my studies right now. Give me a few days and I'll put some random, non-profound thoughts here. I'll also make it a point to watch the discussion on thread until I post. I certainly hope some develops... | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
To All, Ok, the weekend is coming up. You have to have some time to respond to this. Thanks Freeatlast for your tentative agreement to contribute in a few days. Bob_2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bob, I have to say my views on this subject have changed over the years--especially the last two or three--not because of a belief in hell, but becaues I've come to believe that humans are instrinsically different from animals. Having a spirit that is not merely breath, as I've come to believe, makes them different. A spirit has eternal implications, and it's what makes humans HUMAN. I'm still quite surprised at myself at how much my views on abortion and also about assisting in death at the other end of life have changed. They've not changed because of evangelical pressure now that I attend an evangelical church; they've changed because the more I study the Bible and the more I have come to trust Jesus and his sovereignty, the more I see that decisions about life are God's, not mine. No, I don't think all killing is always immoral. No, I don't think we can glibly say we know who should live or die. But I have come to believe that God is in charge of life and death. Capital punishment is something about which I'm not intensely opinionated. I do have opinions; I do believe that we are supposed to protect our communities from those who threaten our families and our personal safety. I don't believe criminals should automatically expect a death sentence. I'm not prepared to say I'm categorically opposed to death sentences. My personal conviction, which does not include feeling compelled to convince others they have to see it my way necessarily (it seems that God has been dealing with me in some personal ways that have caused me to see things differently, and I'm quite sure he can deal with others individually also), is that as far as I am concerned, I do not have the authority to end life. That being said, I do not want to be misinterpreted as condemning those who find themselves faced with loved ones languishing in terminal states, unable to care for themselves or to think. God really must inform each person in the case of each decision. In general, however, I am more conservative regarding the end of life and distinctly more conservative regarding the beginning of life than I used to be. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. "My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." (Psalm 139:14-16) How awesome! Colleen | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, Question: if you had a daughter instead of two sons, if she was raped would you have a D and C done or not. If your son were to rape a girl would you recommend a D and C to the other parents as a compassionate Evangelical? Wouldn't the recommendation be protecting society as much as Capital Punishment or locking a person away from society forever? Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, or would you claim the incident to be God's preordained will that we have to let play out. What about Cancer. Should researchers and surgeons intervene in God's will to let someone have cancer. Should we wage war in Iraq when God has in his preordained wisdom raised up Saddam. If he lobs a few Scuds at Israel or Turkey it is God's preordained will. Is my decision to use birth control interfering with God's will. Is my wife's tubal ligation an interference with God's will. Be careful, I'm getting into Catholic territory now. Bob_2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I no longer would automatically recommend a D&C as I would have in the past. I have also spent much time over the years pondering medical interventions, money spent on heroic experimental treatment, how I'd feel if it were my family or I who needed the intervention, etc. While I have some fairly strong opinions about many of these things, I find that my opinions are not really what matters. Ultimately, the question I keep facing is this, Am I willing to surrender the situation to God and accept his leading and dealing? I do not believe God leads each person the same way, nor do I believe that we are saved or lost on the basis of decisions we make about medical emergencies. God is bigger than our crises, and I have to come to the place where I will trust him regardless of whether medical treatment fails or succeeds, regardless of whether he heals overtly or not, regardless of whether or not I believe He is leading me to take advantage of medical interventions or not. I do not believe God expects us to live as if modern medicine does not exist. I believe we are to protect life, as the Hippocratic oath states. The ethical arguments about treatment, etc., are theoretical until they become one's own personal crises. It is at the point of those crises that faith grows or not. Will I truly surrender the crisis to Jesus? Colleen | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, Good Answer, Good Answer. A bit of a dodge, but Good Answer. I looked at the Web Page for Trinity in Redlands and noticed that they do not have a Pro-life ministry. Is that correct and if so how does the group feel about that Ministry. Bob_2 | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I feel just fine with that. Bob, I was a Respiratory Therapist for many years. Have you ever worked with a 23 or 24 week old neonate born to a crack or heroin addicted mom? Have you ever had to watch these little folks shiver and convulse from withdrawls? Do you have any sort of idea what a living hell that is? I do, as I've detoxed off Oxycontin twice--just like coming off of heroin. Most of these poor little folks just don't survive......... Both of my parents were RN's at a large state hospital where the physically and mentally disable lived. Some of the residents were only bodies, they didn't have brains---or major areas of the brain were missing. Is it right to bring these creatures into the world to be a burden to the world? I think there is a reason for abortion, but it should be done in the first Trimester. I don't support late term abortions of viable fetuses' as that is clearly murder. But, I do think there are times when abortion is called for.............. Bill | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, I'm trying to understand your implication that a Christian generally being opposed to abortion is inconsistent with him generally being in favor of capital punishment. To me, they both serve as a powerful argument for the sanctity of life. I would argue that violent abduction and execution of ANY human being is condemnable if such person has no way of knowing that violent abduction and execution is a possible consequence of their action, whether that action is murdering someone or that action is simply having been conceived. I would also argue that it is entirely appropriate for a society - through its state - to demand that a murderer make restitution with his own life towards the cost of the life he took, so long as the person had the capacity and ability to understand the possible consequences of his crime before he committed it. I think on the one hand we have an innocent person who - through no action on his part and having no opportuinity or ability to take preventive action - is Cuisinart'ed into little pieces, vacuumed out through a hose, and left in a can on the street to be disposed of like yesterday's news. I think on the other hand we have the relatively humane execution and dignified disposal of a criminal who understood in the first place that violent abduction and execution were possible consequences of his crime. I would argue that the real problem with capital punishment today is the arbitrary, capricious, and inconsistent way in which it is being administered. I would also argue that the real problem with abortion today is that it is not even being limited to the "borderline" events (rape, incest, life or disability of mother, etc.), but that it is being aggressively mass-marketed to uninformed and vulnerable young women at a time of crisis without full disclosure of the process, procedure, or viable alternatives. For me, being anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment is entirely consistent and harmonious with my Christian faith. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good points, Freeatlast! Colleen | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
I consider myself prolife. I'm offended that innocent preborns can be killed on nothing more than a mother's whim. As 98% of aborted babies are. I also see the difference between murder and punishment. And I don't relish my son's teachers informing him that homosexuality and masturbation are as wholesome as a God-directed marriage. | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
"For God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." "Today I set before you life and death. Choose LIFE, that you and your descendants may LIVE." There are many more texts such as these, powerful arguments to me that God is "pro-life". |
