| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Remember how Ellen White claimed that she was a Laodicean MESSENGER? She didn't like the designation of "prophet" because Joseph Smith and others had disgraced the title. Recently, during my online research of another nineteenth-century cult, the Jehovah's Witnesses, I found a photograph of Charles Russell's gravesite in Pennsylvania. To my utter surprise, I read the following words engraved on the headstone: Charles T. Russell February 16, 1852 October 31, 1916 THE LAODICEAN MESSENGER Yes, indeed, there were TWO Laodicean messengers; namely, Ellen G. White and Charles T. Russell. After all the talk about "messenger" being a better title than "prophet," the legacy of Ellen White cannot escape the stigma of having a fellow false "messenger." (Source: www.paulblizard.com/russ3.html) Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, give me your definition of a "cult" so I understand where you are coming from. I did not find SDAs to be a cult by my definition which is what Hank Handegraff uses, and that is believing that your salvation comes by faith from Jesus Christ and I found as Hank did that they believe that. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, I can't believe how many formers in this forum refer to Satan orignating activities that happened in Adventism. Do you guys that keep talking about Satanic origins have some special glasses to be sure you are right about this. Pretty horendous accusation. Sounds a little like what I heard as an Adventism about us now "back slidden" individuals. Can you help me with this. Is it Satanic when the position differs with ours. Collentinker, I saw in your story you used it with your son. When I pulled my child out of an SDA school I couldn't image terrifying her that she had come that close to the Devil personified. respectfully seeking answers, Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, I took time to read your story this evening. Question: You thank Dale Ratzlaff in your story for his "meaningful insights". Have you read what he says about the word "forever" as it relates to explaining why the Sabbath was not to be kept forever even though God said it was part of the old covenant that was "forever and all generations." Literal reading, then how can you give up Sabbath keeping. Your suggestion that people if they were consumed quickly would be willing to choose a "hedonistic" life style that lasts longer than the punishment. WOW!!! Who's thought yours or God's. His ways are not like our ways. I cannot image a God that can create beings in his image only to have them burn eternally. That is quite a view of God. Scare them in to the meaningful relationship with Jesus that saves. I have come to believe that Hell is the eternal separation from God, not necessarily conscious. The punishment until consumed. Read 2 Thessalonians 1:9 -
Interesting in this verse it doesn't say "everlasting torment" but destruction meaning that it would never be rebuilt but remain destroyed. Also look at 2 Peter2:6 -
Ashes would indicate destruction also. Comments Bob_2 | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Bob 2 Fist of all the Hell issue. I must take what in fact my Bible says about it and I might add I am reading the Bible thru in a year and this was my portion TODAY: 42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[3] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[4] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where " 'their worm does not die, NIV. Jesus Warns of Offenses (6) 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44where "Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'[4 NKJV Now do we have to take liberty with the scripture to get it to say what we want. I too in my human mind do not understand why/how God could do this but I also did/do not fully understand why He would have hardened Pharoahs heart except that my Bible told me Exodus 10:1 The Plagues of Locusts and Darkness (1) 1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him, Now for the satanic opinion: My biggest clue is The Father of Lies John 8 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. SDA was born out of a lie was it not? If James and Ellen White would have checked their Bible carefully they would have found 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. ane they would not had to try and save face by inventing another fabrication to fix the first lie. I call a spade a spade. And if they had read their Bibles carefully the issue of the Sabbath could have been dealt with by looking at Deuteronomy 18 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If this prophet is in fact Jesus who I believe it is then where did He command us to keep the Sabbath and according to this verse God will tell him everything. You see I can say this all because I know who taught me and it was not my church or some of the people I listen to on the radio such as Bob George author of Classic Christianity of which I agreed before I ever read the book, or Chuck Swindol whom I love to listen to. I was taught by God himself thru experiences that I yielded to and then in the last 4 years thru His Word which all coaborates with the Bible. I do not say we must do this or that but rather I say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life I'm sorry that some group"s" have tried to manipulate that into something more that it is. I must go now hope to hear your comments, Carol | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Carol, So when we find an opinion that differs with us we can label it Satanic because it is a lie because it is not the same as ours!! What about the "forever" problem with the original covenant and the word "ashes" that I brought up. Do we just refer to the collection of words that prove our point. Whether there is eternal torment or consumption, do you as a Christian have a preference. If so would you not be considered a pretty vengeful person? Let's make it more personal, what if eternal hell fire was one of your worst enemy's barbecueing in your barbecue pit next to your mansion in heaven with the smoke rising from your yard daily, maybe the smell of the burning flesh occasionally wafting into your mansion. How would you feel about eternal bliss at that point? respectfully proposed, Bob_2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bob, there was no terror when I had my conversation with my son. As I mentioned in the story, I had no idea how to talk to him about the school change to help calm him. I prayed the entire I asked him questions, and the questions I asked I had never thought of before. When I asked him the question (after he said the problem with EGW was she was a false prophet), "Then where did her visions come from," he answerd, "SATAN." We had NEVER (let me emphasize that--NEVER) talked about that before. I could not bring myself to even think Adventism was a cult. When he answered, SATAN, and I was jolted myself. My subsequent answer to him were words I had never even thought of before, and as I prayed for God to help me and I heard those words come out of my mouth, I was shocked. "Because her visions were from Satan, and because the church was founded on her teachings which were lies, then Satan has a claim on the church." Far from being terrified, my son was relieved. He calmed down instantly, and he no longer feared changing schools. The real "proof of the pudding", so to speak, came a month later when we asked God to take the spirit of Adventism from our hearts and to put the Holy Spirit where it had been instead. Richard says that was the event after which he knew he had been born again. From that prayer on, he says, his fear of being lost, his fear of being guilty beyond forgiveness left, and he has been confident in Jesus ever since. For my part, from that prayer on, every emotional tie that kept me from wanted to "go public" with my convictions about Jesus and salvation were gone. I no longer felt any need to protect my standing within Adventism or with Adventists. Jesus was enough. I could give up that other identity. I know I'm not going to convince you with my words, Bob. I'm just telling my experience. Experiences are subjective, but that does not make them unreal. What I know because of Jesus, I know whether or not one argues facts with me. Jesus is real. The Bible is also real. And I trust the Bible because as I take it seriously and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me, I can see myself changing. My family and friends can also see change in me. The Bible, JEsus, lead people to behave incresaingly civilizedly if they truly follow them. The Koran, on the other hand, leads people increasingly into bondage and even violence. Colleen | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, I have a little bit of a hard time with your sort of "out of body" experience where you were surprised at your own words. Run this experience by your husband's second cousin, Dale, and see if he doesn't also have a problem with your depiction of "owned by Satan". What a halt to civil discussion. It may have given closure pschycologially but WOW, I bet you can't have too many discussions of influence with Adventists if they know this is how you feel about their walk with Christ. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Another Carol, another example of literal reading of the Bible gone awry. "where the worm does not die." You believe in a hereafter where destructive processes continue on. The worm, not fire, will continue to destroy. Won't a worm at some time destroy what it has been eating. Literal reading of the Bible with out thought or study, digging deep not just nugget plucking on the surface, is very dangerous, maybe comforting but dangerous intellectually. My humble opinion, Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, opinions that are different from what Scripture says about good and evil are what I label satanic. I belive that Ellen White prophesied falsely. Scripture is my final court of arbitration. Scripture says that false prophecy is satanic. Beyond that, I can't look through any glasses, I can only look in a mirror. I, too, have been guilty of behavior that Scripture calls satanic. I condemn neither Ellen White nor myself to hell based on being involved with satanic ventures. Only God can condemn and kill BOTH the body AND the soul in hell (Scripture says that, what does it mean?). I believe that we are both saved by God's grace. I also believe that only God can judge Ellen, not me or anyone else. I can only judge her words against Scripture and follow my conscience as Martin Luther did, and I came to conclude that the writings that the SDA authorities attribute to her - and as presented by them - are not wise counsel to me. I am a pending anihilationist, but I am still searching for answers and meaning in this and many other, non-essential topics (the above-quoted Scripture is where I hang my hat today, but I'm open to direction). By non-essential, I mean not critical to determine in order to receive salvation in Christ. I, too, am a big fan of Hank Hanegraaf who reminds his listeners often to pursue "unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in all things." Works for me... Speaking of Hank, I know that he followed Walter Martin at CRI. If you are familiar with the Martin interview with Froom, et. al., you may come to the same conclusion that I did. The SDA representatives kissed Martin's butt at that interview because they feared that Martin, a well-respected cult fighter like Hank, would use the dreaded "C" word in his conclusions. I thought they were disingenuous in their answers to him. Martin ended up labeling them essentially orthodox and not a cult. I agree with him. But they are also way outside orthodoxy on the IJ doctrine and they won't admit it for fear of cutting Ellen and the denomination off at the knees. The interview solidified CRI's position on the matter and it stands today if you visit their website. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
With all due respect Bob2, I think you are still a practicing Adventist. You believe very much like one anyway. And...you seem to be taking much offence to what is said here on the Forum for Former Adventist. I know for a fact (from personal experience) that current Adventists wouldn't hesitate to call anything that doesn't jive with what they believe- Satanic. I think we all need to pray for each other here and try to understand where each person is coming from. If you feel like you have been misled by a group of people for most of your life, it would understandably cause some anger. Please understand this Bob2. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Freeatlast, does the belief in the Investigative Judgement make the SDAs a cult. It is a unique view but so are the "Five Points of Calvin" tied to John Calvin. Try to get a PCA to soften Calvin. Are they a cult? Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
I don't believe that a church carting around a few aberrant doctrines is enough to pull out the "C" word unless the aberrant doctrines are from among the essential ones. If that were the case, I haven't found a church yet that I wouldn't have to call a cult because I haven't found any that agree 100% across the board with my understanding of Scripture on every point of doctrine. Plus, I know that I am very likely carting around a few of my own aberrant doctrines any given time so I personally try to save the word "cult" for the truly extreme cases. But make no mistake, aberrant doctrine is harmful which is why it is so important for us to seek after Truth in Christ. What is PCA, by the way? | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Pheeki, WOW to your post is all I can say. How prejudicial. That word means "pre judging" which you are definitely doing. I do not believe that the continuum of belief is SDA or Reformed Theology. My walk with Jesus has indicated something other than the traditional labels. There is a middle ground on some of these issues. Calling a "spade a spade" doesn't always help for an elightened discussion. I am not a purist Republican because some of the traditional earmarks of a Democrat I agree with. People like to label but not always fair or accurate. Just like the right wing of the Republican party would label a Moderate Republican as no Republican at all, that view is arrogant and wrong. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Freeatlast, PCA is Presbyterian Church of America vs. PCUSA or Presbyterian Church USA. PCA more conservative. PCUSA is the liberal branch. Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, then you must be willing to bear with my lack of knowledge about your particular denomination's doctrines. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Freeatlast, if you have studied John Calvin in all his "glory" you got it. Also, on your web browser just type in Westminister Confession. If you read that you have them also, Sabbatarianism and all. Just remember, you called it my Denomination, I am a member, but I did not come in on the tenets of PCA but a profession of faith that builds on my original baptism within the SDA church. I believe this has been a walk. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Pheeki, Wrong not Satanic. I don't think we should return in kind to the Adventist who may call us Satanic. Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, I understand. I too was baptized in an SDA tank but am a former and now attend and support a Disciples of Christ "denomination". My true church affiliation is in heaven and I claim ultimate membership only to the Body of Christ. Also, I need to brush up on my Calvin if I have any hope of keeping up with you! I'll try to read the Westminster Confession for the fun of it this weekend, thanks for the idea. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Freeatlast, I believe Hank Handergraaf did an interview of his own with prominent Adventist to gather his opinion, not just Martin's interview. Bob_2 |
