| Author | Message | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
Hi guys, I really want your help with something here. I live in a little Podunk town in North Western Virginia and the biggest event of the week is when the local paper comes out or they run a sale at Wal-Mart on chewing tobacco and overalls. Here's my problem. The local paper decided to run a Letter to the Editor that really got my goat (I didn't even realize I had a goat)(and is going to get yours) that I absolutely can't let go without responding. I called a good friend of mine that attends the local SDA church, and as I thought, he was a member there. A lot of you may not even know me because I don't post very much. But this one got me going. I have until next Monday to get a response to the letter in next weekís paper and would like your help. This place is small, so every SDA will probably pick up this weeks paper on word of mouth, and next weeks paper to see responses. I would greatly appreciate your help in coming up with scriptural support to deny his claims, put the focus on the new covenant, and squarely on Christ and love for our brothers. Any words or suggestions you may have would be appreciated. The text to his editorial is as follows: "God pronounces a blessing if we obey his commandments, and a curse if we don't. This is what the Bible says. Since the Ten Commandments are the standard of God's character for us - and a condition of prosperity - everyone should do a checkoff list to see if we're in compliance: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. Thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord thy God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it well. (That's Saturday, not Sunday.) Honor thy mother and thy father. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. Here's some things we should eliminate to restore God's favor and blessings: abortion; lottery and gambling; all alcohol and tobacco products; bad drugs and unclean meats as mentioned in Leviticus; robbing God of his rightful tithes and offerings; voiding the Fourth Commandment by substituting a counterfeit Sabbath; adultery; fornication and living together without marriage; pornography; lying and stealing. All our behavior is covered in the Ten Commandments one way or another. All unrighteousness is sin. Everyone - especially ministers - must cooperate in bringing revival and reformation and prosperity back to [county name]." | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
Also, anyone responding on this thread should realize that I plan to use portions of the posts (maybe verbatim) in my response. Anyone not wishing to be quoted (no names obviously, just verbage) should state that when they respond so I know not to consider it as I draft my response. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Gracehound, good luck trying to argue that those saved can fornicate or steal with immunity. Jesus when he visited this earth simplified the law to: Love God with all your heart (first four commandments and Love your neighbor as yourself (last six). The argument that I have always heard from the Adventists is that if you break the 4th then civilization as we know it will end with all kinds of fornicating and killing. If we read in history, the 10 Commandments were not the first laws to ban killing or stealing. The Code of Hammurabi was there before the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments were a symbol of Jewishness as much as circumcision. In Deut 6:21 it further states the reasons for the Jews to keep this particular law, including the Sabbath was to remember that they had been delivered from Egypt. The fourth commandment also has the Creation as a marker. However, this law could not be God's immutible law, that existed in heaven before our earth, since there was no creation of the earth, nor any delivery from Egypt for others in the universe. These seems to uniquely apply to the Jews. This seems to be further to be shown by the silence in the New Testament on any mandate on the 7th day Sabbath by Paul or any other Early Christians. I don't think any of us can object to rest. One day a week to stop so we can tell one week from the next, and not get a "chasing your tail" effect. On the behave of the gentleman starting the discussion in the paper, Hebrews 4, says that God never appointed another day to be kept like the original Sabbath. However, read closely and you will see that the Sabbath was meant to be a symbol of the peace one can have with God, TODAY,if you are right with your God. To legalistically hang on to the symbol without finding that peace is the real shame. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Gracehound, Another little story, Stephen Bacciochi from Andrews University, Adventist Seminary, was at one of the local Adventist churches here trying to refute a book by Dale Ratzlaff, "Sabbath in Crisis". He told a story about his son wanting to discuss something important to him on a Tuesday night when he a dead line that could not wait. He had to say not now son. When Friday night rolled around, (Conservative Adventist worship from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown,)they sat down for sundown worship and his son said, "Now Dad can we talk?" He said that was what Sabbath was for, family time. The problem with the example is Hebrews 4 says that there is a rest that remaineth but it is not the Sabbath or a new Sabbath but that the Sabbath was a symbol of the peace we can have TODAY if we are right with God. We don't have to wait 7 days, or 7 years to celebrate or rest, we can get on our knees TODAY. Bob_2 | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Gracehound, The basic premise of the writer's letter appears to be that obedience to the ten commandments is the basis for God's approval and blessings. He is right! Keeping the ten commandments would guarantee that we received nothing but God's best in all aspects of our life--just like Adam and Eve. The problem is our inability to keep them. In fact, had man not fallen in the first place, there would be no need for the commandments. Instead he would have lived his life in perfect harmony/dependence with the creator. So, the commandments were given to point out our disconnectedness from God, but offers NO solution. Having recognized the problem, it drives us to the only place for redemption--the cross. Even legalist readily acknowledge that this is how we are saved--I don't know of anyone who says (consciously) that we receive salvation by keeping the commandments. however it is at this point that we part company. They argue that, having been saved by grace, the Holy Spirit empowers the Christian to keep his law out of gratitude for the gift of salvation--the law being the transcript of God's character. Besides the fact that there is no scriptural support for this position, it changes the function of the law. Galatians 4:23-25, clearly says, "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." The law has only one purpose--to lead us to Christ. Having done that, it serves no more useful purpose. Anyone who teaches otherwise needs to do more than argue from human logic. They must show scriptural support. Of course, the next argument is that by saying we are no longer bound by the ten commandments (including the fourth) that we are saying that we have license to engage in all manner of licentious behavior. This is a straw man argument and borders on blasphemy. The death blow to this ridiculous argument is found in Galatians 5:13-21
Now, let me ask you, "why would Paul counsel us not to use our freedom to indulge our sinful nature if we were not free (still bound by the law) in the first place?" There would be no freedom to exercise, right? How crazy would it be for the warden to tell a prisoner not to abuse his freedom as he sends him back to his cell, yet this is the same argument that people make who say that we are saved by grace, but still bound to the law make. No, the Bible is quite clear that we have been released from the law, "so that we might be married to another. The "other" is Christ, and he provides us his Holy Spirit to lead us to the source of all truth--him. That's why in Ephesians 5:15-18 Paul counsels us to:
When we are under the influence of the Spirit, the law has nothing to say to us. Those who want to place us back under the law, deny that Christ has redeemed us, and discount the work of the Holy Spirit. Failing to believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient, or that the Holy Spirit is capable of leading us to Christ, they instead choose to return to a system marked by human effort. One last point that I would like to address is the writer's statement that:
I would like to see the basis for this statement. I can think of a wealth of "sins" that are not covered by the ten commandments. Is it okay for me to beat my wife? How about neglecting my children? Where in the ten commandments does it cover using illegal drugs? Does the big ten forbid sex outside of marriagte? These and other behaviors that we would all agree are destructive, and not conducive to the life of a Christian are not covered by the ten commandments. However, when we are controlled by the Spirit, our focus is shifts away from external behavior and back to re-establishing a heart (trust) relationship with our saviour. Oh what a difference that makes. We are no longer trying to please God, but instead are seeking to connect with him in order to experience life eternally. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Gracehound, what is trying to be accomplished by the gentleman's point should be determined. If this is an argument about how one is saved, then he must realize that their is only one way to salvation, Jesus Christ. If he wants to discuss and get agreement about how to better civilization, then he should realize that he is addressing Jews, Christians, Hindus, Moslems and on and on. Tolerance would be needed to accomplish this last objective. There was a discussion locally here when the Pope visited the city. A local talk show host asked the question, "Why can't we all just get along." The pastor of the church I attend was asked to call in to comment. He missed the opportunity to talk to the contributions all people can contribute to a more sane society but insisted in the conversation that the Jewish rabbi that just called in had nothing to offer because salvation only comes from Jesus Christ. He's right but would there be more social peace with this pastor running City Hall? Doug222 - By the way, logic in our study is very important. When it does not make sense like God having no beginning or end, then faith plays a part, but sometimes the social context of the Bible are important such as when women had to cover there heads in church and when a Jewish woman had a period in the wilderness coming out of Egypt she was to be put outside the camp. Without some logic only literal reading of the Bible, we all would be really far astray. If the evangelical position is correct that it is salvation only not salvation + works or some other middle ground, then the transformation that happens to a Christian is a bit mystical or automatic on acceptance. Why did Paul refer to the Christian walk as a race (with effort applied by the runner) or as a "good fight". I have to agree that SDAs are at one extreme of this argument while Evangelicals are at the other extreme. I believe, the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. Bob_2 | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Bob, I agree that we need to determine what the author of the letter was trying to accomplish. It appears that he was, as you said, giving a prescription for a better civilization. There is however, a flaw with this approach. He offers morality without offering salvation. In doing so he ignores the the most fundamental problem--man's depraved condition. To follow his argument to its logical conclusion, we would eventually have a society where men are conforming (externally) to the standard of God's character without a change of heart (internally). If this were possible, which I do not believe it is, we would essentially be using a bandaid, where major surgery is required. How then would you point out man's need for salvation? Do you see the problem? We have provided a solution that focuses our energies and attention on human effort (attaining to a moral code of conduct), while at the same time masking our real need. We would have reduced the high and lofty purposes of the Law, in order to make it something that it was never intended to be. This is the problem that I have with the fundamentalists who want to place the ten commandments in our schools and courthouses. I agree that every society needs rules and standards of conduct in order to co-exist peaceably and to provide its citizens with some modicum of security and safety, but these standards should be civil and not moral. No where (to my knowledge) in Jesus' or the Apostle's ministry do we see them focusing their attention on "cleaning-up" the society in which they lived. Instead, we see a constant "calling out." Calling people out of a life of religiosity and dead works as well as calling people out of a life of sin and depravity. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Doug, I agree that the relationship between our Savior and us is not well emphasized by the SDA church. I have sat in church meetings where the Pastor went down why people weren't ready to join or be baptized, "because they are still wrestling with smoking." Where is the belief in God's power to help that addiction. One thing I will say about the PCA is they have made a distinction about coming to Christ and coming to the PCA.(Something I thought the SDAs should consider) You only have to understand salvation to come to Christ and membership, but leadership is reserved for those who accept the tenets of this particular denomination. My pet peeve with the evangelicals is the emphasis of the first steps of salvation without talking about effort in the "Christian walk". The lectures that Paul gave to the early churches he visited didn't say just get down on your knees more, or you really haven't accepted Jesus as your savior because your behavior is wrong. There was instruction about right behavior, there was not a mystical happening at accepting Christ but a determined effort to refer to the right standard, and I don't mean the 10 but more of a "WWJD" standard. If all Christians came out of the world, where would the world get its "salt" or "light". An elder in our church was frustrated that his employer did not want him to have a bible study on the premises at lunch time. I know this guy and he probably would put his PCA, John Calvin spin on the study and cause discord on the premises so the owner did not want this. Our church hired this Elder to be a Teaching Elder with paid responsibilities. Nice work if you can get it but is the church prepared to give a job to all that want to come out? What would the world look like? Would we then be the "Frozen chosen". In another thread, I mention about the five points of Calvin. The first letter of the acronym is T for Total Depravity. As a created being in God's own image do we have to consider ourselves as scum to realize that I can't live eternally if I don't believe in Christ. Don't you think that God would accept the person for selfish reasons that he doesn't want to die. All men are sinners but I have seen some good people that did not profess a "relationship with God" as what had produced these works. I differ with you that man is not capable of good. I believe David in the Psalms when he is being poetic talks to man's condition but again we are getting salvation and man being a good citizen mixed up. I am currently reading about John Adams, our second President. He was a good man. Will he be saved. That is between him and his God but it looks like he did have that born again experience. Although he does give his wife a lot of credit for "being the ballast" in his life helping him from going into bouts of despondence. I wouldn't have a problem posting in our schools any prescription for a better society the Christians, Jews, Moslem, Hindus have for a better society. Can we be so heavenly minded to be of no earthly value. The evangelical mystical happening doesn't play well when the next thing you see is them picketing in front of the local Family Planning Clinic with attendance almost mandated by certain sectors of the Church. We don't want the SDAs interfering with the day of worship we choose but we want to interfere with the right of a young woman who has been raped. If the sanctity of life or not killing was what this was about, Capital Punishment must be out the door also. When this is said, the Old Testament Jewish society is referred to giving an eye for an eye mentality. Let's be intellectually honest in our positions. Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
"God pronounces a blessing if we obey his commandments, and a curse if we don't. This is what the Bible says". The implication from the author is that we are cursed today because we as a society are not keeping the 10 commandments. The problem with his argument is that we cannot expect to be blessed or cursed according to a law that does not apply to us. If Scripture says the law was done away with (and it does), then it follows that the blessings and curses were also done away with(Jesus bore the curse, and received the blessing which he now imparts to us by faith.) This law clearly applied to the nation of Israel. Jesus made a big deal of showing us that behavior acceptable to God is infinitely broader and more impossible than any 10 specific rules of conduct could ever account for. Several hundred rules for a single nation didn't even come close, so how can one say that 10 rules for the entire world is enough? It isn't. That's the whole idea. Rules and laws don't get it done. Relationship with God, via the Holy Spirit, on the basis of Jesus' behavior and performance is the ONLY way to salvation. This is Paul's primary message. Social and moral harmony will follow the believer as he attaches himself more and more to Jesus and allows the ministration of His Holy Spirit to convict of his own sin against God and leads him towards repentance and changed behavior. The only command given to us since all things were fulfilled is to believe on Jesus and repent. God knows that letting Christ direct the inward soul is effective while letting the law govern the outward behavior is not. Good things or evil things flow outward from what you believe, not inward from what you do. Scripture is VERY clear on this point. We don't become righteous by doing righteousness, we do righteousness because we are righteous. Paul says this was the express purpose of the law! Not to drive us to lawkeeping, but to drive us to Christ for forgiveness, mercy, and grace to change who we are inside so that we will be behave in a more Godly way. Jesus said that the entire cup must be washed, not just the outside. How I wish the author would have used his pulpit to introduce people to the grace of God instead of the curse of the law. But I trust Scripture which tells me that the law drives us to Christ, so I will pray that his editorial does that for those who read. "God pronounces a blessing if we obey his commandments, and a curse if we don't. This is what the Bible says". The author is indeed correct in his point. If we disobey God's command to repent and believe on Jesus whom He sent, we are already cursed according to John 3:19. If we obey His command to repent and believe on Jesus, we are blessed according to John 3:16. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Gracehound. Trust me, you are going to start a war in the newspaper. I recently read one that went on in our local newspaper involving a SDA preacher and I think Church of Christ. It made the SDA look pretty bad from what I remember. I guarantee you he will counter you with the following: "If the Law was done away with, does that mean we can murder now?" They have never heard of the New Covenant and treat is suspiciously, like it is a trick you are trying to pull on them. I am not saying you shouldn't respond but don't expect good results from this. I must say that knowing me, I would definatly respond. I would start by stating that no where in scripture is the Law separated. It exsisted in its entirety (all 613 Laws) not just 10. I would ask them to prove how only part of the Law was done away with, with Bible proof only...no prophetess involvement. They will probably say because it was written on stone and stone lasts forever. But as we know, stones aren't eternal. They, like this earth will pass away. Spirit is eternal. we are to serve in the Spirit. Spirit is what lasts forever, not stone. Then you may get the following: You don't have to be perfect to come to God for salvation but once you are saved you are to become perfect like Christ. When I argued this I got: What sin can't the Holy Spirit remove from you if you ask? So that sets a person up to have no assurance of salvation because we are still sinners and still sin. The differnce is...the Holy Spirit immediately convicts me that I have done wrong and I know that I am forgiven. I don't set out to purposefully sin but...I can tell you this, when your thoughts are on Christ more than the world, a lot of the temptations to sin are gone. Perfect, no way. Only Christ is perfect. Implying that we will become perfect is very damaging. It makes you feel like you aren't saved if you aren't perfect and I think this is dangerous. I have read the NT and can see no where (so far) that we are promised we will not sin once we are saved. I am still grappling with this issue but I think the SDA are wrong. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Bob, You appear to have a problem with a "mystical experience" that occurs at conversion. You say this is an extremist position of Evangelicals. But isn't that what Jesus taught Nicodemus?
But then I guess you could say that anyone who would hang on a cross for people who kicked, cursed, and abused him is pretty extreme in and of it self. Just curious how you reconcile this. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Doug, I can only use the analogy of marriage. I know my wedding night was pretty phenomenal. But was God going to implant in me, because I was born again, all the perfect actions to have a perfect marriage. No behaviors are a real struggle. When they seem bigger than us, we should hand them over in faith for direction. The next morning we plod on, given opportunities to demonstrate God's effect on our lives. Is it mystical, to some it may seem, but the sanctified life to me is a partnership with man's free will and God's example. Of course when I say God I include the Holy Spirit as the representative of the Trinity and its work. For us formers, I will tell you that I believe the Evangelicals have some litmus tests of their own that do not necessarily stem from a fruit of a born again Christian and can effect your acceptance in that Church, more than you would think. Take the Pro-Life ministry in most Evangelical Churches. I made the point that the ministry in our church should not be participating in pickets on Family Planning Clinics unless we are prepared to open our wallets when a financial need is the expressed reason by the about to be "mother". The leader of the Ministry told me we can't help everone. Fortunately the Pastor told me he believed differently and they do look to be involved in other help ministries for new mothers with unwanted pregnancies. In our church they actually had a guy who counted bumper stickers to see how much support they had for Pro-life. This strikes me a little like the Sabbath litmus test I just left in the SDA ranks. This is the practical struggle issue that the Evangelicals seem to have to the extent that I heard one Evangelical minister say he didn't believe in self-help books since we should only use the Bible as the guide. How about that all you Christian counsellors out there. Does your advice help or should we all just become evangelists to solve the world's ills, what happens after the first mystical feelings when the tough on the spot choice have to be made. Do we say "Wait for God to show you." or use your God given talents of logic and intellect to help with life's real choices. See, when evangelicals get talking about just accepting Christ, this may answer the salvation question, but living day to day there are some tough choices that don't always wait for the lightning bolt from heaven to direct us. Bob_2 | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
This post is for everyone but specifically for Gracehound to answer the newspaper with. I hope that the following scripture verses will prove helpful to you. I added a few comments here and there but it is mostly straight from God's mouth to your ear as the saying goes. I read that the laws that were written in stone were done away with because the letter killed but the Spirit has made us alive for we have passed from that death sentence within the law into eternal life through Christ, I have copied several verses of scripture that are very enlightening concerning this wonderful truth. The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews at Mt. Sinai and were meant as a covenant between them and God, and God promised them that they would prosper if they obeyed him, I don't think that he promised them eternal life by obeying the law. (I may be wrong here, someone help me out here, if you can) The laws were established as a type of mirror that merely reflected the sinful condition of man, we cannot keep the laws and that was the reason for the sacrifices that were being continually offered. The blood shed was a reminder that a price had to be paid for sin and Jesus became that perfect sacrifice that was a one-time perfect sacrifice for all sins, past, present, and future. Scripture even says that the first was done away with in order for a "better" covenant to be established. Study the following scriptures and pray for the Spirit to guide you in what you need to say. He will provide, you just have to "believe" have faith that he will give you the sword and shield to quench those fiery darts that Satan is throwing your way. We have peace, claim it as yours. Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, Rom 2:18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Note: These were "religious" men who had a FORM of knowledge and that the law in itself is truth but were practicing the letter of the law and not the heart of the law. (Big difference) We Christians were the Gentiles who never lived by the law but since the Spirit took up residence in our hearts, he gave us the spirit of the law. 2Cr 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2Cr 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 2Cr 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God; 2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2Cr 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: Note: This scripture (2Cr. 3:7) calls the Ten Commandments a ministration of death. Jesus is life and our dead spirits were brought to life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Scripture confirms it all here that "to this day" there are those who still "have the veil over their face" and the SDAs wear the thickest one by all I can see from their writings. A true Christian exceeds in glory by being made righteous in the Lord, AMEN? 2Cr 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2Cr 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2Cr 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious. 2Cr 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ. 2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. I will close by saying that I hope all of these verses will help you to form that perfect reply to all that the devil may hit you with. All you are commanded to do is keep the faith and STAND, just watch God go to work! He loves to reveal himself to us. We also need to bear in mind that the Bible deals with two distinct groups of people while we study and "rightly divide" the word. The Jews were God's chosen people and he established a covenant with them and will not break it, these are the ones that he speaks of when he says that those who live by the law will be judged by the law, thousands of Orthodox Jews exist today and will be the same generation that will see the Son of Man coming in clouds of glory "with his saints" (Have an SDA explain that verse to you if they believe in "soul sleep" so much) We Christians are the Gentiles that God uses to provoke the Jews to jealously and will be used by God to achieve his goals where the Jews are concerned. We are the bride elect of Christ and will be redeemed by him when he calls us out before the great tribulation that will be the final judgment of God upon his people, the Jews, during the time of Jacob's trouble. Only when we understand this great truth will we begin to understand that the 144,000 are to be taken literally and not a symbolic number that represents any particular cultic group of people. Hope these verses help everyone. That's it for tonight. Janice | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Gracehound, let's here from you about what has been said so far and how your response is going. Bob_2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bob, one cannot equate rabid, pro-life, abortion clinic-burning activities with "evangelicals". Ditto for any behavior which threatens the life and liberty of another. What people call themselves is immaterial. When a person knows Christ (and I mean "knows" him, not assents to him and knows about him), his behavior changes. It still might look radical and extreme, but it will be for the sake of preserving and caring for life rather than eliminating it. The fact is that receiving the Holy Spirit IS a "mystical experience", if you wish to call it that. It certainly is not a physical experience, and it was not available to humanity before the cross. Only after Jesus paid the price for sin could humans be reconnected to God, literally. That's what Pentecost was about, and the subsequent event of the Gentiles also receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 11. When we accept Jesus, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1;13) That is not figurative. He literally comes into the spirit of a person and makes his dwelling there. We (individually and collectively as the church) are literally the New covenant temple of God. that experience does change our relationship to sin. When we are born again, filled with the Spirit, we become righteous in God's eyes. He looks at us and sees Jesus. And that same Spirit begins to change us from the inside instead of prompting us from outside that we are guilty. We really have no part to play in our salvation other than accepting Jesus. Once that is done and we are filled with the Spirit, we have an obligation to live by the Spirit, to respond to the things He points out that we need to change. He empowers us to obey Jesus. It is no longer our self-will resisting evil on its own. Rather, we choose to say "Yes" when the Holy Spirit clarifies that we are sinning. All of this requires that we be willing to give up to Jesus whatever we believe and hold dear to us and allow him to be the Lord of those parts of our lives as well. Colleen | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, one can not equate the bad experience like I had with all Adventists. I find most of the formers on the forum bitter and vengeful. I consider my baptism while an Adventist as part of my walk with Jesus to where I am now. It's interesting what "hate" does to a person. It eats them from the inside and consumes their energy. You can tell if you have forgiven someone when your daily thoughts are not about the wrong that was done to you. I have found parts of Reformed Theology as bad or worse than Adventism in some regards. God doesn't all of a sudden have a subjective standard of behavior when his Son died on the cross. I have seen some pretty bazarre behaviors in the name of Jesus. How about a lady in a local nursing home who refused to take her medication for epilepsy because she felt it was a gift from God. The Nursing Home Administrator had to send her home for the family to monitor when the "gift" exhibited itself because they could not assume the liability. I find the literal reading of the Bible by Reformed Theologians to be when it is convenient to their systematical preconceived set of doctrines usually based on Calvinism. Within Adventism I never had EGW stuffed done my throat, but chose always to use the Bible as my guide. I see most of my Adventist friends as in a walk that has only progressed to a certain point, not as devil possessed. What a halt to civil discussion. I read Richard Taylor's story about his Sabbatical around the United States and how his impression of the congregations he visited giving him the impression that SDA churches weren't as vital as non-SDA churches. Richard, try that now with all Reformed Theology churches and use that as a guide. I could get that same experience in any church in rural America. I appreciated Taylor's attitude toward his Adventist brothers, and I do not believe he harbors hatred for his experience or his decision with inevitable effects by the SDA organization. My question about the attitudes toward Assurance and no further discussion of rightness or wrongness once you are born again as a Reformed Theologian, is it a bit of crutch to be able to say, " I don't know about those conflicting texts, I am trusting in God." We may feel more at peace, sort of like a mental gymnastic a Therapist gives you to calm yourself. However, is it intellectually honest or to be Reformed do I need to use my heart only and disconnect my brain as some of you appear to suggest. Bob_2 | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
All, Thank you so much for such an overwhelming response. I checked in a few days ago and saw a few short responses, but I'm overwhelmed after coming back after this time and seeing everything I have to work with. My intentions are to draft a response over the course of the weekend and submit it on Monday morning to the paper. However, I would like to ask for you all to remember me in your prayers with regard to this matter. When I initially read this editorial, I felt it could not go unanswered. However, I have been living my life in such a way in the last few years that I place things before the Lord to try and be sure I'm in His will. I don't know if it's my own selfish need to respond to this man, or if it was meant to put people in the community back into their bibles to refute what this man was saying, or if it is His time for me to step up and be more public with my beliefs. Regardless of what His plan is for this, I want to be sure that I am not outside of His will in my response. We are tasked to love our brothers and sisters. That's half of the whole reason we were put on this earth. We are here to love each other and love our God and not in that order necessarily. I want to respond in love to this man if I respond. I have some very dear spirit-filled and led Adventist friends who were also very hurt by this man taking the role of the Holy Spirit on himself by trying to convict the public in this area. The Adventist community around here actually seems wounded by his words. I do not want what I say to be a stumbling block to anyone the way this mans words may have been a stumbling block to either myself or others. I am unsure if a private or a public response to this man is what is needed. But what I do know is I need prayer as I draft this response using much of the WONDERFUL input you all have provided to me. When I am all done, I will come back and post what my reply was or at least follow-up with where I finally ended up going with this. Thank you all again so very much. Lisa | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Lisa, you are right. Answer it in love. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lisa, I don't know whether you should respond or not. As you said, you have to follow the Spirit's leading. However, if you do decide to respond, I think thay you should limit your focus. There are 1,000 different points that you could address in response, but too much information will likely fall on deaf ears. It will only illicit a point-for-point rebuttal. You've been an Adventist before. You know how much we enjoyed (and often still enjoy) a good debate. I would suggest a concise public response (since he raised the issue publicly) that demonstrates the futility of trying to keep the Law and the need to rest in Christ's completed work. Give him something to think about, rather than something to defend and then leave it in the Spirit's hands from there. I'll be praying for God's guidance for you. I'd love to hear what you decide to do. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
Doug, You actually hit on a point I thought about when I initially considered responding. I think that the way I am being led to respond is on the 10 point check list. Granted, the weekend has only begun and I'll probably be considering my response all weekend, but right now I think that I'm going to walk through Galations 5. Simply narrarate what Galations 5 is saying and provide the text references associated with what is being said. I may start at the end of chapter 4 by expressing that we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. Then go into all of Chapter 5 where those trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ and fallen away from grace. Point out that by faith we eagerly await through the spirit the righteousness for which we hope. Point to the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. I agree with the earlier point that he'll counter with the whole 'if you don't follow the law and there will be all sorts of murder and horrible sin happening'. I hope to find an area of agreement with him in one way but show that we are told not to indulge our sinful nature but that the law is summed up in loving your neighbor. Verse 18 is clear enough when it talks about if you are led by the spirit you are not under law. Where I ultimately want to point is if we are free from law and under the spirit, then our check list is the fruit of the spirit. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Maybe indicate that perhaps the law is not the appropriate check list to use but to begin by looking to the fruit you produce in the spirit as opposed to the law you are following. Honestly, that's a very (VERY) rough idea of where I want to go. However, I can tell you that often times the Lord will convict me at the 23rd hour to change my approach on something and this is only the 1st hour. I appreciate your thoughts, insights, and prayers. |
