| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
Ken asked, What do you think? I think that you (plural) are obsessed with the Catholics and are allowing the RCC to control and dominate your impressions. I have always wondered why the SDAs were so obsessed with what the Catholics say. Aren't there any other "apostates" out there that you could write about? What about Joseph Smith? The Mormons are the fastest growing "Christian" denomination, you know. Is this even what we, as Gospel-bearing Christians are even supposed to be doing? Can you find anywhere in the Bible that our duty is to dwell on the "wrongs" in the spiritual world? Is it not our duty to carry the good news of salvation to an unbelieving world? Why do you let what Catholic say guide and direct your thoughts and support your arguments? Maybe Colleen is right. It seems that the SDAs do more to support the claims of the RCC than to refute them. By their obsession with them, the SDAs give more credence to the Catholic's arrogant claims to have changed God's laws by their constant watching of them and quoting them than the Catholics do themselves. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, Are you sure you want to fire up a new thread? Seems as though you're having a hard time keeping up with one?! | ||
| Steve |
Hello Ken, Guess what? The Roman Catholic Church is RIGHT! OK, maybe I'm being a little overdramatic. The believers do have the right to identify a day of worship for themselves. Wasn't it Ellen White who said that if you're in a community that doesn't have a sabbath keeping congregation that you should go ahead and worship with the other Christians on Sunday? (Someone help me with this.) I would take EGW a step farther. If you're in a community that doesn't worship Jesus as He revealed Himself, as the fledgling church understood Him, and as Paul and the other apostles preached Him, then you should go and worship with those Christians that do understand Him. I would propose that the SDA church doesn't understand Jesus as He revealed Himself. Therefore, we SDAs should leave the SDA church and worship with those Christians that do understand Jesus. I'd rather worship with those that want to institute a national Sunday law (although I don't believe there's GOOD evidence of this), than worship with those who would stone you to death if you didn't keep the 7th day sabbath. A National Saturday Law is much scarier than a law for any other day of the week. Ken, in most of the posts you've posted on this website, you seem intent on convincing those of us who have found Jesus, that a specific day of worship is important. Your attempts at sophistry, simply aren't convicing (and many of us know where you're coming from, WE'VE BEEN THERE.) Come to Jesus Ken. Not the Jesus who is commanding you to keep a day (Jesus never said to keep a day) but to the Jesus who wants you to keep Him. If you don't know that there are other Jesus' out there, read II Cor. 11:4. There is ANOTHER JESUS. And he's very convincing. But he's deceiving. I like what Plain Patti wrote above. We give power to the RCC by investing what they say with that power. If we stopped paying so much attention to the RCC, maybe we'd really find out what the Reformation was (is) all about -- Jesus. Let's come out of all forms of Catholicism. That includes SDAism. We SDAs have referred to the Protestant churches as being the daughters of the whore. Well, if the SDA church claims to be a continuation of the Protestant Reformation, then they fall squarely into that category. We can no longer play those philological games. The Day is not the issue, Jesus is. Perhaps a National Jesus Law is coming! Just kidding, let's not start another problem : ) Steve | ||
| Plain Patti |
Steve, You are very enlightened. I am convinced that, for the most part, the sabbath has replaced Jesus in SDA theology. In fact, I think that traditional SDAism has an idolatrous relationship with the sabbath. Consider the following SDA doctrines: 1. The sabbath is the seal of God. NT Theology: The Holy Spirit which we receive when we believe in Jesus Christ seals us to God. 2. We must keep the law, including the seventh day sabbath. NT Theology: Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, including the seventh day sabbath. 3. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments which are the "Big Ten," with a special emphasis on the fourth. NT Theology: If we love Him we will abide by his commandments, and He gave us a new commandment--that we love one another as He has loved us. 4. The mark of the beast is worshipping on Sunday. NT Theology: The mark of the beast is replacing the grace of Christ with works of our own hand. 5. The sabbath is the sign of God's true remnant. NT Theology: Jesus Christ is God's only true and faithful remnant. 6. It is our duty to witness to others to the validity of the law of God and by our sabbath keeping. NT Theology: Our duty is to take the Gospel of salvation by the grace of God because of the work of Christ to the world. 7. The sabbath is a sign of the covenant of God to His people. NT Theology: All of the law was a shadow of the Reality of the fulfillment of the covenant in Christ. The sabbath is symbolic of the perfect rest that we find in Jesus Christ. I am sure other can come up with some additional ideas. SDAs do not merely worship ON the sabbath, they worship the sabbath. I did a study once of some posts of a certain vocal and prominent SDA defender (Nitecop) and found that in one of his posts supposedly about "Salvation in Jesus Christ" that Jesus Himself was only mentioned 4 times, and then only in reference to His being "Lord of the Sabbath," and the sabbath was mentioned over 60 times. I find this to be reflective of traditional SDAism as a whole. ANYTHING that diverts our attention from the Gospel, from the finished and perfect work of Christ, becomes an idol. Even if sabbath keeping had been imposed upon the early Christians, which there is no evidence that it was, putting sabbath observance in the center stage, allowing it to eclipse the Son, is idolatry. I pray that SDAs will look to the Son only, and let the shadows fade away. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Plain Patti |
From another forum: Sabbath-worship You know, it occurred to me that those who accuse others of a serious heresy, such as the SDAs condemning Catholicism and all of Protestantism for worshipping the "day of the Sun," are often just as guilty of the same heresies of which they accuse their peers, if not more so. It is becoming clear to me that many SDAs have an idolatrous relationship with the sabbath. The sabbath appears in their writings with exponentially more frequency than Jesus Christ. They have made it the final test of faith rather than belief in Jesus Christ. They have paranoid fear that their nonsabbatarian peers are going to try to kill them over their faithfulness to the sabbath. They change or add to scripture in order to support and perpetuate their habit of sabbath-worship. We often hear how the "sabbath is a blessing" or that "the sabbath should be a delight," but we seldom hear praise for Jesus Christ and His great saving act. That barely evokes a faint "amen." And those who are rejoicing in Jesus Christ are dismissed as "celebrationists." What we see here is that worship of the Reality--Jesus Christ and His perfect rest--is uprooted and displaced by a worship of the shadow--the sabbath. This is not unique to SDAs. Many Christians who do not truly understand faith, who have a "yes, but.." religion, who cannot see that Jesus Christ is truly the fulfillment of all things and the "answer to all my questionings," worship the shadow or the symbol rather than the Reality. A good way to test this is to ask this question of someone who is involved with a particular denomination or belief structure: If you could give me only a single descriptor of what you believe, what would it be? If it is not Jesus Christ and Him crucified, then there is a serious problem. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti and Steve, I read somewhere that for the SDAs to accuse us of keeping the "day of the Sun" is as absurd as us saying that they keep the "day of Sat(urn". | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Ken, You posted that the "Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday" "in the fourth century." You are mistaken. Here's how: 1. The Sabbath was never changed to any other day. Having been only "a shadow" pointing to Christ, when Christ came it was "abolished in Christ's flesh" and "nailed to the cross." 2. Sunday -- "the Lord's day" -- was the day on which nearly all Gentile Christians worshipped from the very beginning. Many Jewish Christians assembled on Sunday AND Saturday, but exceedingly few Gentile Christians did. 3. However, during the first and second centuries Sabbath-keeping virtually died out in Christianity for a number of important reasons. Here are two: (A) The Jews were persecuting the Christians and wouldn't let them meet in their synagogues. (B) Both the Roman authorities and populace hated the Jews for rebelling. So the gentile Christians -- about 99% of all Christians after Paul -- did not want to be associated with the Jews by attending services on the same day. Consequently they avoided increased risk by not keeping sacred the same day. The Roman Catholic Church couldn't possibly have changed the day, since it wasen't even in existance till hundreds of years later. I suggest you read the book written by your own SDA sabbatarian champion, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, titled FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY, in which he deals throughly with the early church fathers -- before you speak with such self-authority. Looking forward to your reply, Jude | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Jude, I agree that the focus of SDA ministry should be Jesus Christ, and has almost never been. Instead of presenting the Sabbath first in all of the studies, the "Good News" should be presented. There is nothing wrong with following the Old Testament Sabbath in a healthy way, not paranoid way. Having said that, "IF" a National Sunday Law did become enacted, how would you react? If they tried to force you to worship on a specific day,Sunday, since the New Covenant says don't judge or force any man to conform to your day of worship wouldn't you have to break the govm'ts laws to keep in harmony with NC teachings? Wow, I have to breath while I'm writing those long ones. Would you, even as a non-Sabbath keeper, have to stick up for your God given right to worship on whatever day you choose? Animatedly awaiting your response, Wendy Breezy is my nickname maybe I'll start using that.Hence my e-mail hvnlybrz. | ||
| Violet |
I just heard from one of my girlfriends yesterday, that her 7 year old daughter came home from school, (SDA) upset because her teacher had told her that George W Bush was going to sign the Sunday Law into effect. Is this child abuse or what. This little girl was scared to death. | ||
| Cas |
Violet, I think we will be hearing many stories like what happened to your friends daughter at school. I know of someone that votes Democrat just because she is sure the Republicans are going to be the responsible party to pass the Sunday Law! Now that we are hearing much more discussion in Gov't about Religious belief and Evangelicals, no doubt this is getting the attention of SDA's. | ||
| Violet |
The funny thing is that Adventist want Jesus to come and they think the Sunday Law has to be passed for Him to come you would think they would want it to be passed. Go figure. | ||
| Valm |
Violet, I had the sunday law fears as a child also. In my child's mind I could not see the futuristic event of Jesus' coming when I heard this stuff. I remembered "The time of trouble such as never before." Ir emembered the EGW quote that states that all the tortureous methods used through out the ages will be used on God's people. I wondered if I would be in the 144,000 as I remembered the chicken burrito I had last week. I also worried about whether I would be found wanting in the judgement. I was told as a child to never be sure of my salvation. The anticipation of the horror they must go through first and the lack of suriety that they will end up with God is too much for most adults to deal with. Yes I agree that it is child abuse. I wished the parents could see it as such. They have a veil over their eyes. Valerie | ||
| Chyna |
incidentally, whenever I describe SDAism as a cult I point out to this belief in the church. when I explain what Adventists believe in terms of "National Sunday Law" it is always met in stunned silence. Chyna | ||
| Charlene_2 (Charlene_2) |
yes, Chyna & Violet, The damage this (Sunday Law theo.) does to a childs psyche is scarry. I, as a second gen. Adventist, have been there. It is very disturbing when the child has loved ones who are not SDA's, i.e. grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. The child does not only deal with the possibility that their loved one will not be in Heaven, but also must assess the "fact" that these same loved ones could be the very people who will persecute them. Any clinician will tell you this type of perr. is mentally dangerous to children. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Once agin the church is fullfilling her duty to scare people kids to death. I met a women who still has nightmares and has ground her teeth so bad she has had to have work done on them great church we belonged to. I friend of mine left the church but she never really was a true SDA and never I guess believed everything and she doen not understand why I have anger towards the church. I fell it is a healthy anger I am moving on but I will tell anyone who will listen to stay away from that cult. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
All Contributors to this thread, is the fright that SDAs might put in your head about a Sunday Law, more or less frightening than most Reformed Theologians' or Evangelical's position on an eternal non-consuming hell. I will take a discussion about a Sunday Law anyday. In my church, PCA, I would never have believed that I would here a United States congressman, member of the church, ever say in a Sunday School class that if a bill came before Congress for a Sunday Law that he would vote for it because it is now the Christian Sabbath. Where is his authority for that? I as a former have asked what I would do if there was a Sunday Law. Would I go along with the persecution of Saturday Keepers like the citizens of Germany did when the Jews were being killed. In some ways I think we have already failed by not protecting those slaughtered. I have told my kids that I would expect us all to stand up for the rights of those to worship as they please. Read Dale Ratzlaff's book and you will see he does not condemn Saturday worship, but he points to his Adventist friends to be worship on that day for the right reason, not the only reason for their Christian existence. Bob_2 | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Try to pass a Sunday law with 1/4 of the world's population Muslim. Their plan is to destroy all of the Saturday worshippers (Jews) and then all of the Sundays (christians). They worship on Friday and we are the big satan, they would nuke us in a heartbeat. Adventists are so blind. | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Sabra, would you defend the Adventist's right to worship on Saturday, to the death, if it did happen. Bob_2 | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
It wont happen, if it did, anyone who was a true christian would have to defend it. We couldn't go around killing people because they don't agree with us. How christian like would that be? Of course, I'd rather stand by the Jews than the SDA's.(maybe I should pray about that) If profiling in our present situation is not allowed, imagine telling the Muslim world they couldn't go to the mosque on Friday but had to sit with the christians in Sunday morning service. AS IF! Another thing, I find few christians that believe Sunday is the Sabbath anyway, it's all a bunch of EGW misinformation we have to re-program | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Even if there wwere a Sunday law, I don't believe that the true issue will ever be the day. Even as an Adventist (well, for my last 10-15 years as an Adventist, anyway) I believed that "when" the Sunday law came, the issue would be the freedom to worship according to conscience. I still believe that, although I have a more specific belief now: the issue we will utlimately faceówhich the world will ultimately faceóis whether or not we claim Christ. Whether there is or isn't a Sunday law really doesn't seem consequential to me. True followers of Jesus--and those who are committed to knowing truth no matter what it costs themówill ultimately have to decide what to do with Jesus. The day issue is a smokescreen. Praise God for Jesus and for his strength! Colleen |
