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Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, Lydell on this forum attends a Vineyard church. She would be the best one to say something about them. She loves her church and finds great spritual nourishment there. Perhaps in addition to her first-hand comments when she returns to read the forum, you could also check out some Vineyard churches online and read their statements of belief, etc.

It's good to hear from you again and to hear that you are worshiping and growing.

Colleen
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Colleen. I do have their statement of beliefs that I obtained on-line. It makes mention of two things that I need clarification on. It talks about believing in "all" the gifts of the Spirit, and about believing in the "laying of hands." I am not sure if this is code words for being charismatic or into "signs and wonders."

I am not criticizing these types of worship experiences, but they just are not my cup of tea. Thanks again.

Doug
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Doug. I'll answer as best I can and will try to define what the terms are we are talking about, because different groups can interpret things differently.

Vineyard churches are somewhere in the middle of the spectrum between the more traditional churches (for instance, Episcopalian) and more charismatic churches (for instance, Assemblies of God). We do believe that all the gifts of the Spirit (i.e. healing, tongues, prophecy...we aren't talking EGW type here, by the way..., teaching, etc.) are still in operation in the church today and that signs and wonders (healings and miracles) will follow the teaching of the Word of God.

We differ with the charismatics in that we don't believe that everyone must, for instance, speak in tongues. Some speak in tongues, some don't, it's not an issue and you will almost exclusively hear tongues as a private prayer language in Vineyard churches. No dictating what will happen.

Although we believe that signs and wonders are still happening and are open to them in our services and lives, it isn't a focus at all. Instead we see them, and the gifts, as being just another normal part of Christian life. If something remarkable happens in our service, that's wonderful, if they don't, then the Lord is working in some other way in that particular service, no big deal.

The services are non-hype. So when the stuff happens, there was no emotional manipulation or pumping up some atmosphere for it to happen. We see the stuff like the gifts of the spirit, and signs and wonders, as all being a part of what the Lord does to reach down and minister to hurting people, not as some show thing. And everything is measured by the Bible, and we believe anyone involved should be willing to be answerable to those in authority in a church. (so someone can't just walk in off the street and take over a service and be disruptive, for instance).

We do lay hands on people when we pray for them. we don't see there being power in that act of laying on hands. So we are just laying hands on them....think "visual aide". So if the person is healed, we see that healing as being entirely from God, we are just opening up the opportunity to see what HE will do in the situation. Sometimes He may heal miraculously, sometimes He may work instead thru the hands of doctors, or we may not see healing. But we figure the chances are far greater that we will see miraculous things happen if we actually ask Him to work rather than just sitting around and waiting.

I've been really surprised by seeing all these things operating in the church. In the past my only experience had been in seeing this stuff in charismatic churches and I thought they were pretty kooky and out of control and just really put me off. It's been interesting to me to see that the stuff can and does happen in a calm, non-hype atmosphere.

Am I helping answer your question at all? Or am I still being too vague on something for you? You can check out the Association of Vineyard Churches website or e-mail me at davdell@snowhill.com if you have some real specific thing that you want to know. I know it is sometimes hard to determine just by looking at something like Statement of Faith exactly what people believe. Folks do their best when they draw up those things, but we can all tend to interpret those words by our past experiences and come up with a wrong impression sometimes. I'll do my best to answer/explain further.
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great answer Lydell! When no one had responded to my last post, I thought maybe I had offended someone inadvertantly.

I did go to a Vineyard service on Saturday night. It was not unlike the services at the non-denominational church I currently attend. It was contemporary in nature and very casual. There were some little things that were said that caused my eyebrows to go up(i.e. the collection of the "tithes" and offering and later, the speakers mention of people's resistance when they are told "everyone" should tithe), but I don't want to be too quick to judge. Also, at times the service lacked the ferverancy of worship and felt more like a program.

In all fairness, it was a Saturday night (which may be different from the Sunday Service) and the Pastor was not there. Someone who identified himself as a "member" spoke. I would want to go a couple more times before I drew any conclusions.

One of the things that attracted me to them is their apparent heavy emphasis on small group ministry. I don't know if this is a local thing or something that the universal body embraces. I am coming to the realization that I need to get into partnership with other growing (mature)Christians that really get to "heart" issues. Unfortunately my experience in Adventism (and since) has been mainly superficial relationships that leave you as a lone ranger spiritually--just where the enemy wants us.

Thanks again for the information

In His Grace

Doug
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about trying a church that practices a Litiany? I L-O-V-E the laturigical form of worship. For one thing the prayers, the creeds, etc. are all either printed in the bulletin or we can look them up in the formal worship book that is on the pews. It's very orderly, very calming, and is a very refreshing way to start the week. I especially just love when the minister says the words of sin absolution. I am always so releived to hear those words.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, glad my answer was along the lines of what you were looking for. I do hope you will visit again. I think it is likely true with any church you visit that just one visit isn't a fair picture...like you pointed out, there could be many things that are "different" from the norm on the one day that a person visits.

Yes, Vineyards as a whole do tend to have an emphasis on small group meetings. The idea there is to make a more intimate family type setting where folks are likely to more quickly open up and share and grow. Our church has been a Vineyard for 6 years now and, thus far, we haven't been able to get the small groups going, which is sort of unusual. It doesn't seem to be because folks don't want to get together, but rather because everyone wants to be together! If we plan small group meetings, folks tend to go to ALL of them rather than just one. We have a Wednesday night service, which is unusual with Vineyard churches. For those who attend that night, it is our favorite service! Every congregation of any church I think is going to have it's own personality.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner. We went to visit our older son for Christmas Eve and then went to visit my mom in Kentucky for a few days and only got back last night.

Yeah, I think the thing about getting into partnership with other mature (and sometimes the seemingly "immature" as well)Christians is so vital. Those "heart" issues are important for growth. And I liked a comment I saw on another thread about being in fellowship with others who have warts and bumps and flaws and making the discovery thru them that we are carrying the same flaws. Our pastor refers to it as "holy sandpaper". The Lord uses our rubbing up against that sandpaper sometimes to rub the rough edges off of US while the whole time we were frumped at them!

Blessings on your search for a church home.
Jtree (Jtree)
Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When looking for a church home, do some shopping until you find one that your comfortable with the teachings there. If it be a Baptist church or a protestant church. If God is leading that body of believers, and want's you in that group, then get there. But if it's the showy stuff you want and God is not into that..but you insist you must be there..then you were no better off in the SDA church.

Peace my friends.
Happy New Years
Joshua of the Rock
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Small groups have been a great surprise for us. They are a big part of our churchóit's possible that our church is larger than Lydell's, because I don't think we could get everybody IN at any given meeeting! (The fact that everyone wants to be together, Lydell, speaks well for your church!) We were both a little put off by the idea of small groups being the core of life at church, but it's turned out that they are wonderful. I particularly like the way the women's ministries organizers form the weekly Bible study discussion groups. They purposely put women together from different generations and life experiences, and our groups yield wonderful discussion and support even in the events of living outside Bible study.

I've begun to conclude that the depth of discussion usually is not so much about the spiritual maturity of the members as it is about the level of desire to know and grow. Last year we had a brand-new Christian in our study group, and her sincere questions and her desire to understand how to live by the principles she was learning yielded some of our best discussions.

Let us know how your church search goes, Doug.

Praising God for his leading,
Colleen
Colette (Colette)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 7:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, I'm new here. Am looking for a Kansas City group. Heard of one? Or do we need to start one?
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Colette, Welcome!!! I am not sure of groups anywhere, being fairly new myself. Just wanted to let you know I'm glad you are here :-) I will be keeping you in my prayers also.
God bless,
Janet
Colette (Colette)
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Janet, Thanks for the note. I found freedom in Christ 3+ years ago. shortly after my mother died 2 years ago, I gave my dad the book White Lies. He read the book "to prove me wrong" about EG White! The past 2 years my dad has been on a wonderful journey breaking free of the 41 year bondage of SDA's. Last week he actually said, "I'm not going back to the SDA church." He is still scared as to what to say to his friends and family and co-workers. He works for an SDA hospital and is actually fearing losing his job if he "comes out." Please keep my dad in your prayers as he searches for other "formers" and searches out a new church. ~C
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what state byour dad is in, Collette but, in California I'm certain it would be a violation of the labor laws to fire someone from a hospital, unless the person was a chaplin, etc., because they dan't dioscriminate due to race, national oprgin, creed, color, handicap or religion. I immagine the hospital he works at even has those signs posted in all the employee area. However, they can still make his life while at work so miserable he's want to quit but he can't do that I'm sure because of the risk of losing his retirement package and also if someone quits they can't get the unemployment money. There's a lot to consider. What's the problem with just quietly not attend anymoe? Do people really notice?
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colette, I will certainly keep your Dad in my prayers! I know SDA employers can be very difficult to deal with in this area. I will pray that his witness will be a blessing to all he comes in contact with at work. That he will find favor with his employer.
Blessings to you and your family,
Janet
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colette, I'll also be praying for your dad along with you. You know, leaving Adventism doesn't have to be the end of his job! If God wants him where he is, they will not be able to get rid of him even if some people want to! I've watched God protect formers' jobs in Adventist insitutions first-hand. The interesting thing is that in each case I've personally watched, the formers have informed their bosses of their leaving the church so the bosses wouldn't hear via the grapevine. God has protected and blessed their work in spite of their "former" status.

Sometimes, of course, God does have other plans, and the formers find themselves fired or simply unwilling to continue working for the denomination. I've concluded that God's sovereign plan arranges our job placement (when we belong to him!) so we are where God wants us to be in order to glorify himself. If God wants to use your dad at his present job, his leaving the church will not dislodge him!

Colleen
James_Jean (James_Jean)
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi: I am new to this website, or any website. Any act of praise or worship can become a ritual "or dead" in any church If grace is not preached. Grace the empowering presence of God enabling me to be who God created me to be (a Christian) and to do what God called me to do. Grace in Titus 2:12 is teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age. I am a Pentecostal or more accurate a Charismatic. I have been leading a morning Bible study which is attended by only SDA's
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, James_Jean, it will be great hearing your slant and understanding on the many issues that we discuss on this chatroom. I was more-or-lress raised SDA, went to SDA schools, etc. I have not been a SDA all my life because in 5th grade at age 11 my goal was when I grew up to not go to my parents goofy church anymore. I do frequently attend now though because my mom is elderly and she relies on me to get her to and from everywhere. I am a Christian of the Lutheran tradition. Pleased to meet you.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome James,

Please tell us how you got an all SDA bible study started. Sounds like a great discussion to me!

Blessings,
Sabra
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome James Jean, glad you are here also. Sounds like you have your work cut out for you in your Bible study :-) I will be praying that God uses you to show them the truth in Jesus. I, like Sabra, am wondering how you came about to study with all SDA's...
God bless,
Janet
James_Jean (James_Jean)
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the welcome. The Bible study started when the son of a friend of mine that I went to school with started coming to a Bible study I was doing. His family were SDA's. Than one by one others started coming, so we split of into another group. As leader I told them it would be Bible and Bible only. From time to time some hard line SDA's would come but not for long. When they only had the Bible to quote they did not have much to say. We have been going now for 2 years. Colossians 1:6 We bring forth FRUIT when we HEAR and KNOW the GRACE of God in TRUTH.
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 5:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

James welcome to the forum. What I have come to know from dealing with my son-in-law who became an SDA in February of 1999 is that they do not want to talk about Jesus. They usually want to talk about what a particular verse says and ususally it is taken out of context and they take much liberty with the verse also they will take much liberty with what ever you say. I am not saying these things to condem or throw stones I am only saying what I have found to be. I will give you an example; Luke 4:16 says Jesus went to the Synagogue as was His custom, they then use this to prove He kept the Sabbath. The crucial word here is custom and custom and keeping are not the same if I look them up in the dictionary which is the only way I know to make sure I am understanding something in its proper way. I am not the one picking at the words but when I see something used out of context then I feel a need to correct just like I would if my child insisted that 2+2=5. There is a right and a wrong way of searching the scripture. I would be interested to hear what you have come across. Maybe you won't have to deal with it since you say the hard liner's do not keep coming. Prayerfully though they might at some point glean something from what they heard when they were there.
Because I want the scripture relavant, Carol

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