| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Bill, many of my in-laws are JW. Although they are very nice to me, in fact I believe my in-laws honestly love me, I am nonetheless acutely aware that by me not being JW I am an outsider. I was at a sister-in-law of mine recently andshe was on the phone with her JW friend. They were obiviousely speeking of someone recently converted to the JW and I only heard my sister-in-laws side of the conversation and it went like tis, "Oh, how long has she been IN THE TRUTH?' then, "Isn't it wonderful tht her eyes were opened to the truth (meaning JW). So many reject the truth that we have", blah, blah blah, and the convestinwent on like that. This same person will not let anyone into her house who has a cross necklace, or other jewlery that has a cross on it. My son when he was in 3rd grade had a friend from school who was JW and befor his mother would let him come to our house we had to assure her we had no cross anywher in our home. It seems to me thos people have a lot of supestitions. Yet, being raised SDA, I, too as a child was taught that it is wrong to display the cross. I remember once when I was arond 7 or 8 years old my lttle neighbor girl always wore a cross necklace. I asked he how come she wore a cross necklace and her answer was because she was a Chistian and that showed everyone who looked at her that she is a Christian. So I went ome and asked my mm if we were Christians and my told me we were so I asked her if I could have a cross necklace like the neighbor girl and my mom told me that I couldn't because REAL CHRISTIANS didn't wear crosses because they had God in their hearts. I have not ever understood how come, maybe someone on this forum can explain it, but why don't the SDA display the cross as a symbol that they are part of Christianity? No one except other SDA's would have a clue what those three trumpet playing angels that are the SDA loge reprsent. When I hear the JW kin speek of the JW religion as "the truth" it seems so much the same to me as the words I hear from numerous SDA' I've known. Even tho the doctrines of those two religions are very different, the mind-set is identical. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The traditional Adventist attitude toward the cross has been that it was a Catholic symbol, and we weren't going to "worship" the cross and make it an icon as they did. Ellen spoke against the use of the cross. Amazing, isn't it? Colleen | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
That's too funny, Colleen! Thanks, Susan II, for the glimpse into the JW mindset. I've known very few JWs, and none in recent years. I have, however, studied Mormonism closely the past few years and have found that they, too, use their own secret code. I'd been wondering if JWs did the same. Another similarity seems to be that Mormons and JWs seem to find it acceptable to deceive outsiders. Mormons use their rewritten history of Abraham, wherein it's claimed that God instructed Abraham to lie to the king, to justify what they call lying for the Lord. I heard a JW explain that they, the sheep, are entitled to defraud outsiders because we're goats. Whether it was just his own opinion, I don't know. The psychology and the social dynamics of these cults are even more fascinating than their religious beliefs. Too bad I was never schooled in psychology or sociology. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Gene, you can link McGreggor Ministries from this site from the "links". Go to the JW link. It's very interesting. Also, there s a website called, silent lambs. com (org?) and it is nearly entirely devoted to the abuse, mentally and physically that JW's suffer. They say per capita of church membership the pepediphile population is quite large in th JW organization. One of those weekly news magzines on the TV did a segment on that lately. Go to silent lambs an read the stories of what a lot of those people have had to suffer through. What is interesting is that the new Kingdom Halls that are being built have no windows. I asked a friend of mine whose parents are JW why the Kingdom Halls don't have windows so she asked her dad. She told me that he told her it is because these are the last days and Arrmageddon is about to come down and the Bible says as it was in the days of Noah so it will be in the last days. So, when it gets really super bad with the persauction the JW's will get because of their truth then they can take refuge in their windowless Kingdom Halls and the authorities and everyone else won't be able to look in and wittness how wonderfully Jahovoah is providing for them. Now, I realize the concept of freedom of religion is a noble concept but I honestly do believe, too that some religions are truly abusive. If not physically then for sure emotionally and I have a deep animosity about that. It is a very controlling religion. Those people really do not allow themselvs to have friends who aren't also JW. Go to that website, it is a real eyeopenr! We have a retired minister who attends the Lutheran church where I go. Him an his family lived in Salt Lake City for 30 years. He ministered a Lutheran church there. He has given several talks on the LDS that I have attended. Because the LDS always has a current living prophit the LDS religion is constantly changing to that current prophits prophicies. This minister friend an his wife are very involved in a Chistian outreach that teaches the Gosple of Jesus to Mormons. And, I lerned from him that the LDS, too use the same words that mainstream Christians use but the words have a totally diffeen meaning. BTW, did you know that in Communion the Mormons use water and not wine? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
As for deceiving "outsiders", that's exactly what the Adventists did when Walter Martin was researching them for his book Kingdom of the Cults. He interviewed many leading SDAs, and they told him Adventism believed all the orthodox doctrines just like mainstream Christianity. To "prove" it, they published the book Questions on Doctrine which restated Adventist beliefs in words that the Adventists had never heard before. It sounded quit benign, but inside the church, the members felt betrayed. I know a man who just a few years ago said, "The church sold us down the river with Questions on Doctrine." It restated all the main beliefs in words that would be acceptable to the average Christian. The book subsequently went out of print and was not reprinted. Because of the slick PR job the church did, Walter Martin did not call SDAs a cult in his book. The truth, however, is that before his death he began new research on Adventism and even appeared on the John Ankerberg show for a series of "debates" with William Johnsson, the editor of the Review. I've seen the tapes of the "debates", and Martin was relentless with Johnsson, asking him questions about salvation and judgment that Johnsson could not answer. He was open in pointing out that Johnsson could not provide answers that would clear Adventism of unbiblical beliefs. Martin died before he was able to complete and compile his new research. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Colleen, do you have any idea if these tapes are available anywhere? What an incredible resource! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
The www.ankerberg.com site has the video. A little hard to find, but it is there. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thanks, Jerry! I wouldn't have known that. I'm glad to know, too. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
What is the web address that I can read Questions on Doctrine? I think it is one of the SDA websites. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Here is where you can find Questions on Doctrine. http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/index.htm | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I use to have a necklace of a cross hanging from my rear view mirror in my car that my son had given me.My husband just couldn't understand why I would want that in my car.He said that it was "the weapon" that they used to kill Jesus and why would I want to go around with that in my car?So ,of course,after a while,I started seeing it the same way.He also wasn't the only one who toldme that,the elders of our home church also told me that.[ex-home church]Just another form of control if you ask me!! God Bless!Angie | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Angie, welcome to the forum! I'm glad to see you here. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Angie, Please to meet you. As far as that stuff like the program, Beyond, I won't watch it. The fellow says it's the real thing and I don't go for that. However, showing my SDA upbringing I am not too consistand because on TV LandI still like to watch the old reruns of Bewitched. And, My Mother The Car was my most favorite program ever made. Too bad it bombed, it was good. | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
I went to the web address shown and was unable to find anything. Could someone get a little bit more specific or provide an exact link to the video with Walter Martin and William Johnson. I am very interested in viewing this. Thanks. | ||
| Gregb_54 (Gregb_54) |
I happened to have a peek just now and I have some words for Pheeki ... History shows that there was not a single prophet who was not maligned . . . the Lord Jesus even had a parable on the matter so we can be more careful to speak against anyone who does the work of the Lord. I understand fully well the reaction of your daughter because I am in the same circumstance as she is. I have the same reasoning with my husband whom I love so dearly that I wanted for us to come into an intelligent discussion on the same subject. For years, he had been reading all the books there is that tried to discredit EGW, and like your daughter I am afraid to the death whenever I hear him say something against her which he cannot support with confidence. I have the same challenge for him - present to me in her writings the "lies" that they tell people about and from there, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can be enlightened. The problem is that he had none of Mrs. White's book to start with, though he had several of the critics books. You are blessed to have the G.C. book to start 'uncovering' if you wish (to me, nothing is more enlightening than to read it firsthand). I ask him if we can buy some of her books but he said he doesn't want any of her books in his house (our house). Why be afraid of a teaching? We all supposed to have the same Spirit of God in us to teach us and to convict us of anything ungodly as the Lord Jesus had promised. How can we reason out together if we don't have them to read/know for ourselves? What are her messages that people are reacting 'violently' from? My prayer is for us not to miss out a heavenly message - especially at a time like now! Satan is a deceiver, you agree, and subtlely he can make the truths as lies (remember what happened in Eden)! What if the critics are on his side to bury the truth? To tell Jesus on that day of His coming that we have been decieved is not acceptable because He said that we have the book and the prophets - "believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper (2 Chron. 20:20)" Moreover, are we not told to always test the spirit -"... if they speak not according to this word (the law and the testimony), it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20)." But to understand the things of God we have to set our minds - renewed our minds - on the things of the Spirit "for to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be (Romans 8:6,7)." this can happen only if we have fully surrendered our whole being to God and be born of God. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ may the Holy Spirit guide you into all the truth which you know not of as you try to 'uncover' - not just reading the G.C., but meditating on the Word of God as you study (with your beloved daughter)the messages written in that controversial book or any of her writings. The Almighty God is faithful to His promises and He will personally make sure that you and your household will get the truth you are wanting to know. yours sincerely . . . ed | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I am no expert on EGW but there are many sites on the internet that will allow you to come to your own conclusions as I have done. The EGW estate has the complete online versions of some of her books that you can read for free. I have come to the conclusion that I only need the Bible and not someone elses interpretation of it. But that is only my personal opinion. Thanks for your well wishes. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Gregb 54, you asked, ěWhy be afraid of teaching?î Forgive me for being blunt. You need to open your eyes. I have read many of Ellen Whiteís books. We have a large library. I have searched them on the ellenwhite.com web site. I have read proponents, opponents, and rebuttals to both. Now, I will have nothing to do with her writings. The are not from God. One can find whatever is good in them in the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 5 says, ědespise not prophesying, prove all things, hold fast to that which is good, abstain from the appearance of evil.î EGW claimed to be a ěmessenger of God,î that is much more than a prophet. Yet, she is not. Her writings do not contain messages from God in any more abundance that the same number of words written by any average person. It is time to listen to the part of the verse that speaks of abstaining from the appearance of evil. Her message is in opposition to the Gospel, while having the appearance of a Gospel teaching. She mixes truth with error, the words of other non-inspired authors with her words, and heresy with orthodoxy. Your husband does not need to prove her wrong. Rather, YOU need to be a true Berean and search the Scriptures (that is, ONLY the Bible) and pray to test this ěprophet.î You cannot assume she is right and look for confirmation because this will lead to the same scripture twisting she used to come up with her heresies. You must believe the Bible FIRST, then see if she contradicts Godís word. For that is what the Bible says to do. Many here have done this. Her words SHRIVEL in the presence of Godís word. As you said, ěSatan is a deceiver.î How right you are! Satan has convinced you to add to the Scriptures (which the Bible prohibits.) Satan has convinced you to honor a ěprophetî who has claimed messages from God that were not true and others that did not come to pass (which the Bible condemns.) What if Satan is blinding YOU and leading YOU to ěanother gospel?î There is no need to guess or wonder, he already has done this. Your husband may not be using the best approach, but he is right. Do you want proof? It is all around you, LOOK FOR IT YOURSELF. Why be afraid of learning? God bless you, Jerry | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Amen Jerry!! | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Gregb 54,I wasn't going to commit on this b/c I'm not very good at defending my new faith in Jesus Christ b/c it is so new.First,I know where your husband is coming from,I'm in the same situation with my husband.I can't convince[sp]him with words,so I always tried to get him to read 'the books'.Then one night as I reading Galatians,it hit me,get him to read this whole book [of Galatians]and he will see for his self!Well,he wouldn't even do that.So I pray that you will.I do not see how anyone can read that book and still say that we are still under the law of Moses.As you read it,block out any of EGW's coments and let the Holy Spirit lead you.Then maybe you can peek into some of 'those books' that he has,exspecially if he has Cultic Doctrine. May the Holy Spirit lead you in ALL!! God Bless...Angie | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Gregb54. Are you grouping EGW with the Biblical prophets? What parable are you speaking of? Here is one small case in point of EGW vs. the Bible. Mark 7: The words of Jesus, himself. 14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " 17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " 1 Timothy 4 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. Here we are told we can eat anything that has been consecrated to God in prayer. That is why we ask God to bless our food. Do you think God is going to let something he has blessed harm us either in our bodies or our eternal salvation? Isn't it a lack of faith to abstain? Romans 14:2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. Now lets look at what EGW has to say about diet. These are only a sampling of the many... EGW: The eating of pork has produced scrofula, leprosy, and cancerous humors. Pork eating is still causing the most intense suffering to the human race. Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 393, paragraph 2. "The indulgence of ... tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin!" -- Evangelism, p. 266, written in 1899. When did the creator forbid these things? "When these tea and coffee users meet together for social entertainment, the effects of their pernicious habit are manifest. All partake freely of the favorite beverages, and as the stimulating influence is felt, their tongues are loosened, and they begin the wicked work of talking against others." -- Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 423, written in 1890 The use of soda or baking powder in breadmaking is harmful and unnecessary. Soda causes inflammation of the stomach, and often poisons the entire system. Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 316. "You place on your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" 2T. p. 362. That statement is so unbelievable I won't even comment. "The apostle Paul exhorts the church, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Men, then, can make their bodies unholy by sinful indulgences. If unholy, they are unfitted to be spiritual worshipers, and are not worthy of heaven. If man will cherish the light that God in mercy gives him upon health reform, he may be sanctified through the truth, and fitted for immortality. But if he disregards that light, and lives in violation of natural law, he must pay the penalty." Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 70. Ellen twisted Paulís counsel on presenting your bodies as a living sacrifice to include her "health reform" message. Where does the Bible tell us in order to be sanctified, a person must accept health reform? This is salvation by works. It is Jesus Christ that sanctifies us, not EGW's "health reform". (Qutoed from Truth or Fables website). God gave the light on health reform, and those that reject it reject God." ó Series B, No. 6, p. 31. EGW address to the General Conference in Oakland, published in the General Conference Bulletin, 1903, pp. 84-88. That is a blasphemous statement. "Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from Godís people to walk no more with them." Councils on Diet and Foods, p. 382 Is that a threat? 1868 2T 68 Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach. All through the Old testament God's people ate meat and cheese. I will have to search to give you the proof of cheese but I have recently read it. A meat diet changes the disposition, and strengthens animalism. . . . To educate your children to subsist on a meat diet would be harmful to them.-- U. T., Nov. 5, 1896. 1 Cor 10:25 NIV "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience," The meat issue is just one example of how EGW's advice is contrary to the Bible. |
