| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I know this topic has been discussed many times before on this forum, and I also know the position that many here take about the state of the dead. Personally, I have not come to any definitive conclusions, but if I had a leaning, I think it would be toward the soul sleep argument. For those of you who believe that a saved person goes to heaven upon death, please explain how you reconcile the following passage:
There just seems to be so many texts that support both arguments. This one seems to clarly support the idea that one does not go to heaven when they die. How do you explain this passage, and how can you be so certain that one does go to heaven? Thanks in advance. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, I don't believe the whole physical person goes to God, just the spirit, the part of the person that knows God. If the whole physical person went, there would not need to be a resurrection. I further don't believe that when a person dies, he has complete freedom of movement and travel as if he or she had a body. Whatever is meant by "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8) does not suggest to me that the whole person is there. The spirit of a person is with the Lord until the resurrection, and that condition, according to Paul, is "better by far" (Philippians 1:23). But it also, it seems to me, means that the spirit is truly "with the Lord" and nowhere else. It is aware of being with the Lord and aware of being in His love, but I don't see a suggestion that it can travel and move about as if it were a whole person. The passage you quoted above is one I've also pondered a lot. One of the things I've thought is that our definition of death might be limited. "Death" from our perspective involves the destruction of the body and of the existence of the person. From an eternal perspective, however, "death" might not mean total annihilation or temporary non-existence. To live even though we die, as the passage says, might very well mean that the body decays, but the spirit lives on. In fact, it seems that Jesus is emphasizing that possibility when he says, "whoever lives and believes in me will never die". I agree that the whole issue is not clear. God apparently doesn't want us to know the details of what happens after death. But Paul's discourse in 2 Corinthians 5 and also the passages in Philippian 1 are also there. One thing that pretty compelling to me is Paul's discussion iun 2 Corinthians 12 about his "rapture" to paradise where he heard things that man is not permitted to tell. He says he doesn't know if he went there in the body or out of it, but he was apparently personally taught by God in paradise, in eternity, and because of the "surpassingly great revelations" (v.7) he received, God gave him a thorn in his flesh so he would not become conceited. This rapture occurred fourteen years before the writing of 2 Corinthians (v.2). That puts the date of this experience about 41 AD. This experience predated the writing of any of his epistles. I have to read Paul's epistles with the understanding that the things he wrote are informed by his experience of having been in paradise with the Lord and being an eyewitness to a brief moment of eternity as well as being taught personally by the risen and glorified Savior in paradise outside of time. When Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 that at Jesus' return "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him" and after that there will be the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first, it seems consistent with these other passages. Something essential, something spiritual about believers goes to be with Jesus, and it rests in him and returns with him to be reunited with a glorified body. I see even the passage above concerning the resurrection of Lazarus and living even though dying as meshing with this understanding. Of course, we don't know difinitively what will happen. It just seems, however, that the NT really does clarify that something essential stays vital in the presence of Jesus after death, and similarly something spiritual stays vital when unbelievers die as well. They, however, will be resurrected, reunited with their bodies, for destruction. Praise Him that even death cannot separate us from his love! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Thanks Colleen. I will look at some of those passages that you mentioned. As I said, I am still undecided on this issue. What disturbs me is that most people aren't. They believe strongly one way or the other. I am looking for thet evidence to give me that kind of evidence, and haven't found it yet. Thanks again. Doug | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Doug, I also am sort of sitting on the fence regarding this topic. There seems to be evidence on both sides. The passage you pointed to regarding Lazarus's death and Jesus statement about it has always been understood by me to indicate death is likened to a sleep and that therefore , there would be an awaking (coming to life) in the future. However, I recently looked at this passage again and realized there could be another meaning in Jesus using sleep as the understanding of death. When one is asleep, they are not aware of anything around them nor the passage of time BUT never-the-less they are still alive and conscious. Maybe Jesus was meaning that at death, the body ends but the spirit continues to exist to live. In other words life continues though not in the same form ,just as when we are asleep our life continues though not in the same way as when we are awake and aware of our sourroundings. Colleen, I do think there is much light in your thinking about our spirit having some kind of existance with Jesus until his second coming. Where people take it to far, is when they say the our spirit will be looking down on our friends and maybe even coming down to help our friends. I was recently at a memorial service for a prison inmate who had taken his own life and the chaplain spoke of the spirit gone to enjoy sports up in heaven so we did not have to worry about him. I could not believe what I heard. People will desperately try to make up some idea that will bring them some comfort at the death of a loved one. Whatever happens, our eternal future is secure in Christ Jesus. Praise God. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
As I have posted before, I trust God to do whatever is best for me when I die. If that be sleep or not. I think I agree with Colleen about our Spirit returning to it's source (and I don't mean we can communicate from up there with our relatives down here!) I think it is possible that people did sleep prior to Christ's victory but after his victory and after he was raised from the dead, everything changed! Now things that weren't possible before are possible now. One thing is for sure, we will all find out sooner or later. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Doug, another passage you should check out again is the bread of life discourse in John 6. Jesus repeatedly tells the listeners that if they eat his bread, they "will never die". That doesn't leave room for an interim period of any kind between living and living. Notice v. 56-58. Here he explains that those who eat His flesh and drink His blood abide in Him and He in them, just as the Father gives life to the Son, His life is in us. The spirit is the only part that can go to God at death, it is the part that has been brought to life from death already. Doug and Clay, you are never going to find the answer to your questions by looking up passages on "death", the timing of last day events, or the "judgment". Your search likely needs to begin with a thorough topical study of, "what is the spirit?" and "what is the soul?" | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Doug and everyone, At the risk of sounding like a spiritist or some new ager or worse, I would like to share something that happened to me December 5th, 1988. My life at that time was not one to brag about. Infact, if there was any sin to be committed, I probably did. However, because of my dad's telling of the Gospel on his death bed when I was 10 years of age, I always knew that there was a God and that someday this Jesus would come back. Because of the way I lived my life, the thought of Jesus Coming back frightened me as I was also taught that sinners would be in eternal fire. However, an incident arose in the which I did die. And I don't mean simply dying, I mean my brain had stopped functioning and for all intents and purposes, I was "brain dead." Now I had written three notes. 2 of them told my family and friends to please not cry for me but know that I am with God and in a much better place. For I KNEW beyond human reason that I was going to God and I was NOT sinless by any stretch of the imagination. Had never opened my Bible either. So whatever had me believe I would go to God is also unexplainable. But what happened to me is something I've told about 3 people only and now I will tell of what happened to all. I was above my body looking down at it as I watched paramedics trying to intubate me on the living room floor. I watched as my then roommate (a Family Physician) took all the empty bottles of pills and threw them away and then she put my dog outside as he had come running to my side as the paramedics were working on me. I had no emotions in watching all of this. Then it goes black. Next instant, I'm in a yellowish-white light. Surrounded completely by this light and there is Peace beyond anything I could describe in words. There were no thoughts of "Am I dead? or Do I have a body? or Am I floating or walking? or Is this Heaven? Infact, there were NO questions whatsoever in me. I was totally at PEACE. Being at such Peace, not a single question came to me. Total contentment. Then a voice, which I know was God, said "You have to go back." I remember thinking "why?" And His Voice once again, in the most loving way, repeated "You have to go back." Now mind you, I did not see anyone nor anything but the light that surrounded me. Also, I did not even think of this world. I was AT PEACE. Next thing I was opening my eyes and was strapped down, on a respirator, and had doctors and nurses running over to me telling me to blink once for yes and twice for no. All I could do was be angry that I was back. So I kept moving my right hand that was strapped down and the doctors took forever to figure out that I wanted a pad and pencil to write with. When they put the pad under my hand and put the pencil in my hand, I wrote one word...."unplug." It turns out that I did die a brain death and was miracously revived. Had been in a coma since coming back to life for 18 days. I never did tell anyone what happened but because I had written the word "unplug," they figured me suicidal and tossed me into a nut hut after I got out of ICU, then regular hospital room to treat my pneumonia from the respirator. From that time forward, I KNOW there is a God. I KNOW there is life after death but not like we know it here. Another thing that took place at that time was because I KNEW for a fact that there is a God, I've never feared another human being since then. Nobody has the capacity to frighten me, not even the meanest and toughest of gang members that I've encountered in my many years of living in Sacramento. There simply is NO FEAR. Now, I realize that Christians are not supposed to tell of these things and I cannot claim that I was a Christian then. But I did know there was a God and my mind was always on this God. To this day, I cannot tell you if this is Biblical or not. All I can tell you is that this is what happened to me and I've no explanation. I will tell you what I believe because of this incident in my life. I believe that I went to God. However, my mind is open if I've been decieved. All I know is what happened and the lack of any fear of human beings since then. At that time, being fully convinced that there is indeed a LIVING GOD, I've always had comfort in this knowing and I've always known that God is with me where ever I go. There is no proof of my experience but this is my experience and the subsequent comfort and lack of fear of human beings. No, I did not start going to Church, no, I did not change my lifestyle nor read the Bible. However in 1990, I was in a detox unit suffering from some pretty severe withdrawls and had been diagnosed with liver failure and congestive heart failure. My lips and fingernails were blue, I weighed 82 pounds and walked with a shuffle as I could not lift my feet to walk. I was also slumped due to lack of strength to walk upright. The withdraw was so intense that I did go into my hospital room and dropped to my knees and said 3 words.."God, Help me." From that moment I felt a warmth and KNEW that God was not only in the room but inside of me. Also, I stood upright and two weeks later was discharged with perfect health. I will never forget. God as my Witness. Denise Gilmore | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
The radical nature of the fall is something the annihilationist's have consistently overlooked. At the fall, man was separated from God (on the VERY DAY as God foretold), the world, others, and finally, from his own body. The terribly tragic effects of sin ultimately result in the ripping of man's mind or soul out of his body and his unnatural continuance as a disembodied spirit in a conscious afterlife. If the annihilationist's argument was valid, they would have to deny the concept and reality of death as well as a conscious afterlife, because neither of them is explicable on the grounds of the creation alone. It is only the radical fall into sin that explains death and the afterlife. While believers experience everlasting life now as a present possession, they look forward to the resurrection when they will at last be immortal and incorruptible in body as well as in soul. Jesus' death on the cross illustrates the separation of body and soul which takes place when death occurs. Thus, when He died, His body remained intact in the tomb while in His spirit or soul He went to Hades according to Peter in Act 2:27 and in 1 Peter 3:18-20. We must pause at this point and emphasize that nonexistence was not the punishment inflicted on the body and soul of Christ. If the annihilationist's were right, then Christ should have disintegrated on the cross and would have ceased to exist in body and soul. However, Christ's body was not annihilated but intact in the tomb while His soul was conscious in Hades. There is no way to escape the fact that Christ did not experience total annihilation in body and soul on the cross. What He did experience was suffering as a result of moral alienation from God. This is the ultimate fate awaiting rebel sinners. Not once in all of Scripture is the word "raised" or "resurrected" used of the soul or spirit. It always strictly refers to the resurrection of the body. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good points, Dennis. I hadn't thought of Jesus not "annihilating" before, or that resurrection always refers to the body, not the spirit. Thank you for those ideas. Colleen | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Thanks for sharing your experience Denise! Before anyone else even goes there, I'll bring it up. My husband is a helicopter pilot. In their training they are taken into a chamber and the oxygen level is slowly brought down until they have the experience of the brain starting to shut down. He describes it as the light fading away until their is just a pinhole (like going down a long dark tunnel). When they restore the oxygen, the light rapidly returns, he says that there the light quickly grow. Okay, hopefully that gets it out of everyones system now because what Denise has described goes beyond mere hypoxia. You had an encounter with God, Denise...you KNOW it is so because the thing dances around in your body and shouts with every cell, coming from the absolute depths of your spirit. God is REAL. The fact that it took you what you will agree was way! too! long! to finally act on the fact doesn't change the matter that God demonstrated that reality of His existence to you. Right? I've talked to others who have had this experienced and been radically changed. As you have Denise, they are totally unafraid of death. I know we are very quick to say, "well, it must not have been God because the person didn't respond and immediately turn to God". But you know, the same thing can be said for the times God miraculously saves lives in accidents. The person not immediately responding to the touch of God doesn't change the fact that it was God's touch. God moves. He touches lives in the most remarkable of ways. Sometimes He has to get us unconcious or further before the message is delivered. But is up to man to respond to the call, acknowledge that there is a God and that it means something, and turn to Him, as you did with your simple cry of "help me", Denise. My brother was in 3 helicopter crashes in Vietnam. In one he was the sole survivor. It was horrible, there is absolutely no argument with that! But you know, he was also miraculously saved on several occassions. On at least one he told of being undeniably compelled to stay on his bunk and not go to another specific location where he was supposed to be. While he was sitting there the building he was supposed to go to was shelled and destroyed. His life was preserved. His choice (and yes, drugs had a huge part to play in the choice)was to live out the rest of his life in bitterness over the crash where he alone survived. You have to wonder what contribution he could have made to the world had he chosen to instead be thankful for the times he was spared and sought the answer to the purpose it that. God gives the gift. We are the ones who have to choose to open the gift. That's what I see happens in the incidents like you have described Denise. I'm so thankful that you opened your gift! | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Denise, I was trying to post and lost the forum when I went to cut and post from another web site and now I have to start over. This is such a dreary day here with the slow rain and chilling air, it is 48 degrees according to the weatherbug. Anyway, I was reading about what someone had posted and Lydell had suggested that a study should be done on "soul & spirit". I was keying like mad when I decided to post a comment about the spirit seen by the witch of Endor but lost my place when the sites changed out. Here is the story found in 1 Samuel 28:13-And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.14-And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.15-And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.16-Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? I wanted to sort of expound on this scripture a little bit and give my insight to what I believe happened in this "one time event recorded in the word". My sister argued that when Saul consorted with the witch of Endor that it was a demonic copy of Samuel due to the fact that Saul stated that "he perceived" it was Samuel by the description given of the spirit that the witch had conveyed. That is a definite possibility, but I stated that we cannot discount the very next verse where it says in v.15-And SAMUEL said to Saul.... I believe that since Saul had already strayed from God to the point of being mentally unstable, he had lost communion with God. This is exactly what the Bible teaches if you read the chapter, his jealousy of David brought about an evil spirit that vexed his soul continually. Now this is my opinion, so, take it for what it is worth, but I feel that it was a special revelation from God and it was the actual spirit of Samuel that spoke to Saul, because in the next verse,15-And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?...17-And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, [even] to David:18-Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.19-Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. When we look at this story, we see that verse 15 & 16 both begin with "Samuel said..." so, we should take it for what it says and stop speculating. It actually happened!!! But to clarify about being able to speak to the dead, or whether or not you can or should even try? You can see from the entire text mentioned here that Saul had actually had all of the witches killed in that territory for consorting with the devil through witchcraft, and since Saul was no longer having communion with God, he got desperate and thought that he would disguise himself so that this witch wouldn't notice who he was because he felt that he just HAD TO KNOW his fate. She was afraid when his true identity was shown, but if you will pay close attention to the story, you will discover that this woman made her living by fraud because she was scared from the true ghost of Samuel because she was used to dealing with her familiar spirits/demons who took on the forms of deceased loved ones, in order to make a living by feeding on the emotions of the deceased family. Isn't that what is going on today with our little talk shows about "Crossing Over"? We are warned against consulting these mediums because of their trickery and deceit and besides, it isn't walking in faith and trusting in God when we constantly feel the need to delve into the supernatural realm of Satan and his army of demons. We are suppose to pray to God, in the name of Jesus, and through the power of the Holy Ghost, anything other than that is of the devil. Again, it is my personal opinion, not neccessarily a fact that can be proven beyond doubt, but I believe that we no longer are in need of a prophet since we all have the written word and learn from the word through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Prophets are, for the most part, of the Old Testament and they spoke to reveal future events as they pertained to the coming Messiah and last day events. I know that we have the gifts of the spirit listed in New Testament passages but even so, a prophet was to be tried or tested to see if what he spoke of was true. I ask "how can you possibly test the spirit of EGW when she spoke of the investigative judgment and the heavenly sanctuary? We are here on earth and God's thoughts and ways are above ours and he reveals through his written word ALL that we need in order to live out our lives here on earth. The Pauline Epistles and other scriptures were several hundred years in the making and then not vastly distributed to the world. The Christians used to hide pieces of parchments of the Bible in the hems of their clothes during the early church persecutions which were brought about by the Catholic church, the same bunch of "religious" people that crucified our Lord. Now that we have the printing press, computers, newspapers, magazines, telephones,etc. we have no need of a prophet, even the Bible says that their will be an end to tongues, prophecy, and such things when Jesus becomes the center of our worship and even states in 1 John 2:27-But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. I believe that this scripture is saying that although we are saved through the "preached" word, after we are indwelt with the Holy Ghost, he will lead us into an understanding, and with that in mind, the Spirit will lead us in our understanding to unable us not to get caught up into churches that promote false teachings. We are taught to not forsake our assembly, and I believe that we should continue in our search for a good church family but I guess what I am saying is that the fact that you do have the Holy Spirit is the reason that you all came out of the SDAs in the first place, and I believe that, due to that fact, it has made each of you even more keenly aware of the many false teachings that are going around in the churches these days. If we are to take any of God's word seriously, and if we have his Spirit guiding us, we will plainly see that all of this hypocrisy and false teachings is the sign of the apostate church of the end age. Please don't stop praying and searching for that unity because it is still our duty as Christians to be ambassadors of Christ and he commands us to go out and compel them to come in. We are still saved by the preaching of the simple gospel. Keep the faith, Till next time, Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Doug, I would like to give an answer to your question of how to reconcile these verses of scripture about Lazarus being asleep. In a study of the entire chapter, you will see in verse four that Christ said first that this sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of GodÖ.so, this would suggest, to me anyway, that a special scenario was being set up so that the resurrection power of God could be revealed to Christís disciples before the actual crucifixion and resurrection of Christ that would signify the ìfinishedî work on the cross actually took place, maybe it was intended to give them hope of his promises that he would later make to them about preparing a mansion and sending a comforter, so, I donít believe that any argument is needed concerning the word sleep as it is used in this particular text. Lazarus could have been in a ìsleepî of sorts or it could have been just a word that was commonly used during that time. Consider today that we tell our children many times that grandpa or grandma is ìrestingî in an effort to explain something that is simply unexplainable to a child, so, maybe this was the case with Lazarus, other than that I have no opinion or explanation. Draw you own conclusion, but that is what I feel that God has shown me. Here is the story again in John 11:11-14: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead If you continue to read the chapter, you will come to these verses 23-26: Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (Martha was obviously calling to memory Christ's previous teachings on the subject of the after life, but he clarified it to her here): Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (I also believe that "though he were dead" is making mention of being more spiritual dead than physically dead, but I am not sure of that either.) If verse 26 states that if we believe we will never see death, then shouldnít that be enough to let us know that the resurrection of Christ is indeed the key that we need to unlock this supposed mystery of soul sleep. It changed everything! What do you suppose that this scripture is saying? Doesnít it prove that everything changed AFTER the resurrection: Matthew 27:53-And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Ephesians 4:8-10 is further evidence of the changes made: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) He says that he ascended; he foretold to his disciples that he would send a comforter and we have a list of the very gifts that the Spirit brings, so, verse eight fulfills Christís statement, right? The next verse says that he descended before he ascended, does it not? It says that he did this in fulfillment of prophecy. In the Old Testament, we have the lower parts and then we have the New Testament that teaches here that Christ ascended and TOOK those in the lower with him to the upper. Now, the dead in Christ go to be with him and what does this scripture say: "He will return with ALL his saints", so, I ask you, if the saints are returning with Christ, doesnít that mean that they are with him in glory now? And how about Paul statement of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord"?It has to be that way because we know that Jesus ascended and is sitting at the right hand of God, right? To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints 1 Thess. 3:13 I was also reading some of Colleenís answer to your question and agree with her on most of what she said, but I would also say that it would be a good idea for us also to study the word death because it is like she says, death has a definite definition to us but isnít exactly the way it is related to us in the scriptures. For one thing, death is an eternal separation from God and not necessarily a state of non existence as the SDAs teach. My sister likes to quote the verse about fearing God who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, again, I would say that, like Lydell suggested, we need to study those words more closely. Soul and spirit are often used interchangeably but the original Greek and Hebrew words reveal that many words are in fact different from one another and were changed to the same English word in many cases, that is when our concordance comes in handy. Soul, spirit, hell, sealed, and eternal are all words that I think should be studied more closely as well. Maybe the word sleep should be studied too. I guess that I have more than made up for my week long absence, huh? Sorry about that but maybe you can break this post down and take it a little bit at a time next week. I may not post during the week again, so I guess I am trying to pour it all out in one sitting. Study over these subjects and we will discuss it again, God willing. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Doug, I would like to give an answer to your question of how to reconcile these verses of scripture about Lazarus being asleep. In a study of the entire chapter, you will see in verse four that Christ said first that this sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of GodÖ.so, this would suggest, to me anyway, that a special scenario was being set up so that the resurrection power of God could be revealed to Christís disciples before the actual crucifixion and resurrection of Christ that would signify the ìfinishedî work on the cross actually took place, maybe it was intended to give them hope of his promises that he would later make to them about preparing a mansion and sending a comforter, so, I donít believe that any argument is needed concerning the word sleep as it is used in this particular text. Lazarus could have been in a ìsleepî of sorts or it could have been just a word that was commonly used during that time. Consider today that we tell our children many times that grandpa or grandma is ìrestingî in an effort to explain something that is simply unexplainable to a child, so, maybe this was the case with Lazarus, other than that I have no opinion or explanation. Draw you own conclusion, but that is what I feel that God has shown me. Here is the story again in John 11:11-14: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead If you continue to read the chapter, you will come to these verses 23-26: Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (Martha was obviously calling to memory Christ's previous teachings on the subject of the after life, but he clarified it to her here): Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (I also believe that "though he were dead" is making mention of being more spiritual dead than physically dead, but I am not sure of that either.) If verse 26 states that if we believe we will never see death, then shouldnít that be enough to let us know that the resurrection of Christ is indeed the key that we need to unlock this supposed mystery of soul sleep. It changed everything! What do you suppose that this scripture is saying? Doesnít it prove that everything changed AFTER the resurrection: Matthew 27:53-And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Ephesians 4:8-10 is further evidence of the changes made: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) He says that he ascended; he foretold to his disciples that he would send a comforter and we have a list of the very gifts that the Spirit brings, so, verse eight fulfills Christís statement, right? The next verse says that he descended before he ascended, does it not? It says that he did this in fulfillment of prophecy. In the Old Testament, we have the lower parts and then we have the New Testament that teaches here that Christ ascended and TOOK those in the lower with him to the upper. Now, the dead in Christ go to be with him and what does this scripture say: "He will return with ALL his saints", so, I ask you, if the saints are returning with Christ, doesnít that mean that they are with him in glory now? And how about Paul statement of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord"?It has to be that way because we know that Jesus ascended and is sitting at the right hand of God, right? To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints 1 Thess. 3:13 I was also reading some of Colleenís answer to your question and agree with her on most of what she said, but I would also say that it would be a good idea for us also to study the word death because it is like she says, death has a definite definition to us but isnít exactly the way it is related to us in the scriptures. For one thing, death is an eternal separation from God and not necessarily a state of non existence as the SDAs teach. My sister likes to quote the verse about fearing God who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, again, I would say that, like Lydell suggested, we need to study those words more closely. Soul and spirit are often used interchangeably but the original Greek and Hebrew words reveal that many words are in fact different from one another and were changed to the same English word in many cases, that is when our concordance comes in handy. Soul, spirit, hell, sealed, and eternal are all words that I think should be studied more closely as well. Maybe the word sleep should be studied too. I guess that I have more than made up for my week long absence, huh? Sorry about that but maybe you can break this post down and take it a little bit at a time next week. I may not post during the week again, so I guess I am trying to pour it all out in one sitting. Study over these subjects and we will discuss it again, God willing. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I just lost another post that I have been working on for the last half hour or so. Guess I am more tired than I thought and need to give it a rest. I don't even remember who I was sending the post out to or what I was really discussing. You know me, I always chase after a dozen things at once. Maybe if I hit my paste button to see what I have, it would jog my memory. Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Oh yeah, I was discussing the foolishness of making up fairy tales about heaven and such in order to try and soothe over grieving hearts when we already have a comforter, so, why not just be honest over the discussion of death and the grave, it is glorious if you are saved, so, maybe those who weren't sure about what to say decided it was easier to make up a cute story, who knows why they do it? Well, God does. Anyway, I was responding to the comment made about the preacher who spoke at the funeral of a prison inmate and made mention of ballgames in heaven. I was commenting over the many movies, songs, and such that simply had no Biblical basis. One example is our teaching of animal heaven. This may soothe a child when Fido dies, but it is much the same as telling them about the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and Santa Claus, sooner or later they will come to the knowledge of the truth and I know from my own experience that this is major disappointment to a child to have their bubbles bursted like that. I have often wondered if it wasn't a hidden danger that while teaching about these fictional characters and teaching about Jesus and God at the same time, might we not be laying a foundation that later brings our children into a major lack of trust towards us? I don't remember feeling that way for sure or not, but maybe on a subconscious level, a child may be thinking "now that I know that the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and Santa were all lies, how much faith should I have concerning Jesus and God? Do any of you agree with me here or is this just some wild notion that I came up with? Maybe I have an over active imagination? It was just a thought of mine, but why do we tell our children that dear old dead grandma and grandpa are our guardian angels? We should be ashamed when we say things like this. God gives his angels charge over us, and I am sure that his legions can handle the work load of looking after us without the aid of mortal men, needless to mention dead ones, telling such nonsense has absolutely no Biblical backing. I always loved to watch "Highway to Heaven" because of its words of encouragement but hated the false teaching that John Smith was actually a dead human sent back to EARN his angel wings. He had all these powers like the angels but was once human, NO WAY!!! Also, a cute little movie "A Preacher's Wife" with Whitney Houston portrayed a woman praying for her preacher husband to get some heavenly help in order to build his faith, and once again-a man was sent back to earth, from heaven, to help him while earning his wings in the process. Also, I have mentioned before about Touched By An Angel only preaching half of the gospel, they are content to tell everyone, even those that profess that they don't believe in the first place, that God loves them. They never offer any words of advice about seeking salvation, they never mention Jesus at all unless it is maybe a Christmas or Easter special, even then I believe they only say "God's son" without mentioning his actual name, and even then, they don't really tell how to be saved, the message is always the same, God loves you so much that he sent you an angel, never that God loved you so much that he gave his only begotten son. I pasted the scripture above because I wanted to show that I believe that God allows the saints in glory to know when their families on earth come to the Lord in faith because it says there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. It doesn't say the angels are rejoicing, someone is rejoicing in the presence of the angels, the question would be who then, wouldn't it? I don't think it is the Godhead either because of their foreknowledge of all things, so, it must be those departed saints in glory, but I still don't believe that they are "watching" over us and have the power to come and go as the angels do. Many discussions could come from this post about how some of you may think that you had a vision of a departed spirit, but rest assured that Satan and his demons have the power to transform themselves into human form (check out the witch of Endor that I mentioned in another post) so, a word of advice would be that if you ever see a ghostly apparation, just stop and say "in the name of Jesus, get behind me you demon of Satan" and then if it remains you can consider that it is an angel of God. Aside from that, just be careful with dealing with such supernatural things. Anyway, guess I should end this now because it sounds like another storm brewing outside. It is tornado season around here, so, keep us in your prayers, the wind is really blowing now. Janice | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Thanks to all that responded. I will be studying this topic further, and will consider all of your input. Thanks again. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, One thing that got my attention was in Eccl. the Adventists always use the "dead know nothing" verse, well, he is talking about how life would be without God...then he goes on and realizes that there is nothing apart from God and so we must have connection with Him, then...in chapter 12:7 he says: "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." God is Spirit and we are spirit when we accept Him and our spirit comes alive. If we didn't go to Him when we die, where would we go? We can't just not exist. I don't think we can understand it all but I am sure even death will not separate us from Him. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Sabra, Part of your sentence: ".....but I am sure even death will not separate us from Him." That's what Scripture tells us.  So it is so. Thanks....good news too! Denise Gilmore |
