| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Interesting Article I believe. What are your thoughts on this? You have to skip a bunch of headlines and the article is at the bottom of the page. Does Brainwashing Work? Posted Friday, March 14, 2003, at 2:43 PM PT Elizabeth Smart's dramatic homecoming after nine months as the apparent captive of a drifter couple made front-page news. When it emerged that she had plenty of chances to run, her father claimed she may have been brainwashed. Last year, Dahlia Lithwick discussed America's obsession with mind controlóand whether brainwashing actually works: "Studies show American jurors overwhelmingly still believe brainwashing is a highly potent psychological phenomenon. In one much-cited 1991 survey of 383 random subjects, nearly 78 percent believed brainwashing can occur even if the subject 'is not actually held captive against their will.' " http://slate.msn.com/id/2080215/ | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Having just followed that link.....the article is now seen at the right hand column. Not sure how it will show up next time. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
For those of you who cannot get to this link or if the article is gone by the time you do get to it, here is just a sample of the article: "But every dog has its day, and all junk-science has its limit. The watershed for the second-generation brainwashing defense (and the end of Ofshe's and Singer's impressive run as unbeatable expert witnesses) came in 1990 with U.S. v. Fishman , a California federal criminal action in which a defendant put forth an insanity defense in a mail fraud case, alleging that he'd been brainwashed by the Scientologists. The judge tossed the brainwashing testimony, holding that the views did not represent the consensual view of the scientific community. More and more, the idea of brainwashing is dismissed by courts as either Cold War hysteria or the anti-cult mania of the '70s and '80s. With their new affection and tolerance for cults (now respectfully renamed "new religious movements") and a dearth of empirical evidence that evil geniuses can force innocents to do what they would not normally do, the scientists aren't around to testify. The most dramatic phenomenon revealed by the current empirical evidence is that something called "social influence" exists. (This is more or less the same thing that makes you buy the Ralph Lauren turtleneck instead of the one from Sears.) And the scientists themselves have tended to break down over definitions, politics, and empirical evidence (click here for an excellent account of the meltdown over brainwashing that has beset the academy of late). But still, Americans love the idea of brainwashing. In much the same way that we clung to myths about ritual satanic abuse of schoolchildren long after the McMartin preschool case was proved a sham, we are simply sold on the notion that brainwashing works. Studies show American jurors overwhelmingly still believe brainwashing is a highly potent psychological phenomenon. In one much-cited 1991 survey of 383 random subjects, nearly 78 percent believed brainwashing can occur even if the subject "is not actually held captive against their will." In a 1992 survey of 1,000 random New Yorkers, about 43 percent of respondents believed that brainwashing is absolutely necessary to make someone join a religious cult. What is it about the Moonies or the Branch Davidians that makes Americans so certain that their adherents must have been brainwashed into compliance? First, brainwashing offers a clinical/scientific explanation for frankly un-American levels of religious fervor. Some religion is nice; the sort that comes with a tasteful choir and topical sermons. But head-shavings, communes, and the eating of too many legumes make us nervous. So does mass suicide. Second, Americans place a high premium on personal freedom, such that any religion that restricts movement, choices, or association, smacks of cults to us. Believing in brainwashing allows us to consider our own religious beliefs normal, even rational, while allowing us to dismiss Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Scientologists as zombies. We can feel sorry for them and still go to church on Sunday. If the American public is comfortable with the notion of brainwashing as the best explanation for religious zealotry, it remains to be seen whether we will also accept that fundamentalist Islam is merely a "cult" that's subjected its members to relentless brainwashing. If the Sept. 11 bombers are just so many "Manchurian candidates" and John Walker just a California kid who got brainwashed, juries may have a tough time finding them guilty. Our ambivalence about fundamentalist Islam is clear. We can't decide whether Muslim fundamentalists are an enemy to be vanquished or a cult to be "deprogrammed." A search of Nexis since Sept. 11 reveals hundreds of references to Islam in tandem with brainwashing, including numerous assertions that all madrasahs are Islamic mind-control factories. Already the cult experts are arguing that Walker, Reid, and Moussaoui are victims of extremist cults. Rick Ross, a lecturer, deprogrammer, and expert witness on cults recently told Time magazine that that the Taliban "is an apparitional cult." Former Moonie and author Steven Hassan claims to see unmistakable signs of brainwashing in both Walker and Moussaoui, both of whom apparently underwent radical personality changes upon converting to Islam. In the terror trials of 2002, defense attorneys will be hard pressed to find a judge who will still recognize a second-generation brainwashing specialist as an expert or a brainwashing expert who would even testify that Bin Laden can remotely control the minds of thousands of innocent young men. The real problem is that jurors, and the public, may still believe it regardless. A perfectly credible legal narrative can be crafted to play on the same sympathies that ultimately freed Patty Hearst: Reid, Moussaoui, and Walker, young converts to a religion that is a vicious brainwashing cult. Your Honor, Osama made them do it." Thoughts? Experiences anyone? | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
I neglected to add the last paragraph of this same artcle, it says: "If anyone has been brainwashed, it's the millions of Americans who still view new, radicalized, or unusual religions as "cults" and their leaders as masters of mind control. We must try these terror cases free from the patronizing assumption that strange, even crazy beliefs are necessarily products of illness or undue influence. The proper word to describe a savage act committed at the behest of a charismatic lunatic is not "brainwashed." It's evil." Hmmmmm, seems to me, well, I'll hesitate to add my thoughts for now. What is your reaction to this? Thanks, Denise Gilmore | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Well I feel like my experience in the SDA church had a lot of brainwashing and I fell alot of sympathy for anyone who has experienced this. It is funny I think people do not consider what most SDA people go through but I fell strongly that it is. What was my religion based on? Fear mind control telling me I could control things telling me a crazy woman was a prophet. Telling me it was not finsished at the cross. Oh so many mind control events take place in a SDA persons life. Well in most of our lives some people do not consider their experinece in the church the same as mine. Someone told me from this forum that I could have left at anytime. Well I did not see the need I thought I was in the true church and even when I saw error and was on my way out I was scared to death because I had been taught that if I left and did not accept the sabbath as the seal of God I would go to Hell and was following satan. People right now are telling children that if they eat meat they will not go to heaven if they play sports so many things. So do I believe in brain washing yes,yes,yes. People can do it and they did not miss treat me they did not threaten me with hurting me they did not take away food. Well enough of my soap box. Love in The freedom of Christ Terry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I have also pondered the phenomenon of brainwashing in conjunction with Adventism. As in most cults, the factor that makes it powerful is the insistence that one will ultimately die if one doesn't accept the beliefs of the "one true church" (or leader or group, etc.) The problem, of course, is that people can also look at Christianity and say the same thing about Christians. We say there's only one way to the Father, and, critics ask, how can we set ourselves at odds with most of the world's population in this way? Ultimately I believe that the real problem lies with the power behind the claims. We do not fight against flesh and blood but "against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12) When people are committed to the true God whose invisible qualities have been made known in all that has been created (Romans 1:18-20), when they are committed to knowing the truth, God reveals it. The real truth sets people free internally. They are freed from crippling guilt, shame, revenge; they're released to forgive and to serve with no thought of reward, to love without desire for recognition. Counterfeit "truth" keeps people bound in fear, guilt, anger, depression, self-centeredness, and ego. There are definitley brainwashing techniques that work on people. But people who are grounded in honoring the true God and knowing truth are far less vulnerable to those techniques than are people who are not committed to God. The problem about talking about this subject with people in general is that the born-again experience is something most people don't understand or experience, and when a Christ-follower talks about it, it can be dismissed as the results of "brainwashing". Were most of us brainwashed as Adventists? Probably, even though those who "brainwashed" us weren't remotely aware that's what they were doing. Was Elizabeth Smart brainwashed? Probably, although I suspect her real brainwashing happened before her abduction. (I suspect that her strange reactions and apparent passivity about escaping might have had something to do with dissociation--a skill she probably also developed before her abduction--but that's a different topic, and I'm not an expert! That story just doesn't seem "right"; her reactions don't seem those of a girl with normal family relationships, but I speculate.) So what is "brainwashing"? Ultimately, every person is either under the influence and control of God or of Satan. That doesn't mean that God can't redeem and renew a person under the influence of Satan, but I think that understanding that nothing is neutral helps explain brainwashing. People without spiritual understanding (see 1 Corinthians 1 and 2) will not differentiate between people committed to Jesus at any price and people committed to power-hungry religious leaders who are not committed to Jesus. There is a spiritual component to brainwashing; that's one reason it's so effective and powerful. Either our dogmas flow from truth, or they flow from deception. I do pray that we will be willing to grow in truth and to know, as the song says, that "knowing you, Jesus; knowing you--there is no greater thing!" Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Colleen, I wanted to address your comment about Elizabeth Smart. I agree with your assessment 100%. Something just doesn't add up. It seems as though there is too much of an attempt to make them seem like the "all-american family," since she was recovered. However, her responses (throughout the ordeal)do not seem consistent with somoene who had come from that type of environment. Some things we probably will never know. Denise, as far as the brainwashing thing goes, I have not had a chance to really ponder the article. I'll withhold comment for now. Doug | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Not much time to write, but, it is very likely that Elizabeth Smart is suffering from the "Stockholm Syndrome". Look it up. The effects on the victims of a bank robbery in Stockholm lasted for months and years in some cases. Brainwashing and the Stockholm Syndrome, which is a very sad result of extreme situations may be at play here. Steve | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Steve, That was my thought on the Elizabeth Smart case. Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Denise Gilmore | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Colleen, What you posted bears repeating: Ultimately I believe that the real problem lies with the power behind the claims. We do not fight against flesh and blood but "against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12) When people are committed to the true God whose invisible qualities have been made known in all that has been created (Romans 1:18-20), when they are committed to knowing the truth, God reveals it. I will add to it that I have been reading up on depression and was amazed at how the devil can use your vulnerablility at the time to build upon your doubts and fears. Even the Bible speaks of an outpouring of demonic activity in the last days that will lead people away from enduring sound doctrine and will, in turn, believe a lie (strain at a snat and swallow a camel.) I believe the charm that the SDAs held over my mother and sister was simply that they were allowed to DO SOMETHING to HELP God along, so to speak. The simplicity of the gospel sounded simply too good to be true. In their depressed state and disillusionment of fellow humans that they trusted, their depression made it easy for the satanic forces to make their appeal and they were led away with silly fables. In my mother's case, she was a victim of both physical and verbal abuse during her first marriage and after her third failed marriage, she began to doubt the sincerity of any man. Add to the equation that my mother worked for the state pardon and corrections board as a file clerk and was exposed to many horrible things that most people just don't see on a first hand basis. Example, she dropped some picture evidience from a file once and picked it up to place it back into the folder and when she looked at it, she couldn't make out what the two piles of burnt trash was and opened the file to read it, only to find that these photos were the two charred bodies of newborn twins that had been born in a home and the man didn't want to fool with them, so, he took lighter fluid and poured on them and burned them alive some moments after the woman gave birth. Mama's curiosity led her to check other criminal records which, of course, led to more horror stories and horrible pictures in many of the files, such as the woman whose boyfriend got mad at her and did an "at home" mascetonomy of sorts and slashed her arm repeatedly also. The rape, the incest, the murders, all placed on her mind a sense of fear and despair that certainly contributed to her frame of mind. She was finally able to retire but soon found that she needed more income and decided to take a Sunday morning nursery job for extra income and also took some part-time work sitting with the elderly, her Sunday morning job kept her from hearing the preaching service which led her to seek out some Sabbath worship services and when she voiced her dislike for the preacher at the Saturday Baptist church that she attended, my SDA sister took her dissatisfaction and ran with it and talked her into once again trying the SDA church out. The rest is history. It is a shame that all churches don't have the recruiting ZEAL that the cults seem to have, isn't it? That is where the gospel preaching churches so often fall short. Many of the churches just aren't getting out there and witnessing these days but with the anger and violence going on these days, many just don't have that much faith to get out there in the world. I guess I need to get up and go to work before boss man gets me, I will try to talk more later at home when I have time. Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I understand the Stockholm Syndrome idea, and it may be true. It still leaves me with unaswered questions, however. I've had a few experiences with severly dissociative kids over the years (teaching exposes one to things he's never thought of before having it one's life!), and I still think there's more to this picture than meets the eye. Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Isn't the Smart family Mormon? | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
Yup. |
