| Author | Message | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I was listening to Moody broadcast yesterday on the radio,and the preacher said that he hoped that he was called up in the rapture and God forbid that he be left here.Now he wasn't talking about going to Hell either.So,if you have ever seen that movie 'Left Behind' this is more or less what he was referring to.What I want to know is,where is the scripture for this belief?I couldn't even find rapture in my Bible.Or the 7 year, 2nd chance thing.But since we here on the forem have divers opinions,surly someone can enlighten me.May God bless us all,as we learn from each other,or even,agree to disagree sometimes! Angie | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Angie, the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible, as you have found out. There is a wide variety of views of how the last events will unfold! I think we should approach the prophecies as the prophets did. The message that Christ will return is what is important. The timing of the events is not. I've been in a study on the kingdom of God recently that is just awesome. The guy makes a very good point that I hope I can convey. And realize fully I'm likely to have to answer questions to clarify what I say! haha All the prophecies of the OT pointed forward to the Messiah. The Messiah arrived. In His ministry Jesus demonstrated that the "last days" had already arrived, salvation, healing, peace, the demonic being cast out, and eternal life are already now here. We are NOW in the "end times" events by virtue of what Christ did. This is sort of an interim period where this present earth and what we as Adventists had always thought of as only being way in the future are actually go existing. When someone is saved, the person is kind of taken out of this present earth and placed in GOD'S time. We are living here, yet already also walking in Christ's reign. So for us, this IS the end times already. To me this really brings into perspective that it doesn't matter a hoot when the "rapture" will happen or how the antichrist will take over. What matters is that, as a child of God, I'm to be daily involved in the relationship with Christ that will give me listening ears to hear his direction thru EVERYTHING that happens both now and then. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lydell, I've come to the same conclusion you have. The Bible is not clear about the timing and sequence of last events. We have been living in the last days since Jesus was here, we will eventually reign with him, and what happens between now and then--I have to trust him with that. Just yesterday I was thinking about these things and mentioned to Richard that the fact that so many "informed" people missed Jesus at his first coming suggested to me that a lot of "informed" people may miss him at his second coming as well because events don't unfold as they think they're supposed to. I've come to believe that my marching orders are to continually submit to Jesus and to keep my heart and mind fixed on him. Knowing Jesus now is the the one sure thing that will take us through the unknown future safely. The prophecies will come to pass, but, I suspect, we will recognize them as they happen, not before. Our connection to Jesus and our openness to the Holy Spirit will inform us and make the connections between events and scripture clear as we need to understand them. I believe it's clear that we are experiencing the wars, rumors of wars, and revolutions that Jesus foretold, but exactly what will happen and in what time frame we are apparently not supposed to know in advance. It's all about walking by faith! I pray that God will protect me from deception and will keep me faithful and growing in him. And I pray that for all of us here! Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Angie, The distinction between Israel and the church is basic to understanding prophecy. Many have called it the key to unlocking what the Bible says about the future. When the two are kept distinct, many prophetic details fall into place. Then it becomes evident that some predictions refer to the Lord's return for the church, while others relate to His return as the King and Deliverer of Israel. You all can go to www.rbc.org and click on the discovery series booklets to your left of the screen and then key in the title "What We Can Know About The Second Coming" and read in more complete detail if you are interested. Hope this helps answer your questions in your post that you mentioned on Saturday, March 15. The main evidence for a two-part return of Christ revolves around (1) God's distinct plans for Israel and the church and (2) prophecies that describe the time of Christ's return as being both knowable and unknowable. The following will explain why that seems to signal a two-part return of Christ--one for the church and one for Israel. I don't want to sound like I am criticizing but will point out that since most of you in the forum are formers, it means that you have had a life-time of false teachings concerning the second advent of Christ and were never taught that when Revelations speaks of those that keep his commandments are nothing to do with the SDAs or any other group other than Israel, and during the tribuation years, the 144,000 is a literal number, not symbolic, of Jewish evangelists that will open the eyes of the Jews during the "time of Jacob's trouble" and they will live by the law during that time since the Holy Spirit has left the scene with the rapturing up of the saints, those saved by grace. I won't put the entire booklet in the post tonight, but maybe you can go to the site and read it for further discussion in the forum. Basic to this discussion is our belief that the first of these two returns is for the rescue and removal of the church (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:9). The second relates to God's plan for Israel (Ezek. 36:16-38; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21). Both have different places in God's prophetic program. Even though both share a common spiritual ancestry that can be traced back to the faith of Abraham (Gal. 3:7), they have different places in God's world plan. Israel represents a nation with whom God has made very earth-centered and geographically related promises (Is. 2:1-6; Ezek. 36--37). The church, on the other hand, is a multinational organism made up of all true believers in Christ--Jew or Gentile. The church is at the center of God's program until "the fullness of the Gentiles" is fulfilled (Rom. 11:25) and has been given a hope that is to be realized more in heaven than on earth (1 Thess. 4:13-18). This provides an explanation for why the church is not specifically referred to in most of the book of Revelation. Revelation 6--18 (which describes the "great tribulation" to which Jesus alluded in Matthew 24:15-28) never mentions the church. While an argument from silence is not the strongest, it does seem significant. It gives credence to the idea that Christ will have returned to remove the church prior to all of those endtime events related to the restoration and salvation of the nation of Israel, called the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7). The church will already be with her Lord and will come with Him when He returns to save Israel and set up His promised earthly kingdom. That brings us to a second important reason for being ready for a two-part return of Christ. The teaching of the Bible includes (a) prophecies of dramatic events that will occur just prior to the Lord's second coming to earth and (b) predictions of another coming at a time that is not expected. It seems reasonable to resolve this apparent contradiction by seeing them as describing TWO different phases of the Lord's return. Just keep in mind that if this discussion seems unrelated to your real needs and problems, you're missing something. Nothing is more practical than the return of Christ. When seen properly, nothing provides more hope. Nothing provides more accountability. Nothing puts the pains and pleasures of life in better perspective than the promise of our Lord's return. If the Lord were to return today, all of your worst problems and all of your deepest pleasures would suddenly look entirely different. For that reason, let's take a closer look at what the Bible has to say about (1) the any-moment return for the church and (2) the final presignaled event climaxing the worst trouble the world has ever seen. In the Olivet Discourse, delivered only shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus answered questions raised by His disciples after He had predicted the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem. They asked, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3). Notice that the disciples' question has three parts: (1) When? (2) What will be the signs of Christ's coming? (3) What will be the signs of the end of the age? As we read our Lord's answer, we find that He began with the sign part of the question. He dealt with the signs of His coming that will alert all generations (vv.3-14), the signs of the end of the age related to Israel (vv.15-35), and the "when" or time question related to His unannounced coming for the church (vv.36-51). The signs of His coming--alerting all generations (vv.3-14). The Lord began by describing seven events that would occur before His return. They will be signs of His coming because their purpose will be to remind His children throughout the age, saying, "Jesus is coming again." Our Lord talked about false christs (v.5), wars and rumors of wars (v.6), famines (v.7), pestilences and earthquakes (v.7), persecution (v.9), defections from the faith (vv.10-13), and worldwide preaching of the gospel (v.14). It is a fact of history that all seven of these occurrences took place to some degree during the first century. However, like most prophecies, the near-at-hand and far-off elements were blended together into one picture. Therefore, Jesus' statements have different applications to different generations. To believers who lived and died under terrible persecution, "the end" in verse 13 is the end of life. But to those who live during the coming tribulation, it will be the end of the age. Similarly, the worldwide preaching of the gospel during the first century was to the Roman world (Col. 1:5-6), while for us today it is to the entire globe. These events portrayed by our Lord served as signs to first-century believers and to those of all subsequent generations that He is coming again. The signs of the end of the age--related to Israel (vv.15-35). At verse 15, we suddenly find ourselves with a very specific prediction about "an abomination of desolation." This is followed by a detailed description of a brief, terrible time of trouble that will end when the Lord returns. We might be puzzled by the statement about the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place." But the Jewish people to whom Jesus spoke understood it. They knew that according to Daniel 9:24-27 a hostile Gentile ruler would someday desecrate their temple and initiate horrendous persecution. While Luke 21:20-24 contains some elements that were partially fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, Matthew 24:15-31 focuses on the endtime. There will be: Enough fear to drive the Jews to the hills (vv.16-18). Unparalleled trouble and woe (vv.19-20). Great tribulation that would threaten all life if the days were not shortened (vv.21-22). False christs and prophets (vv.23-26). Startling celestial signs and the visible descent of the Son of Man "with power and great glory" (vv.29-31). These will be the signs that the end of the age is near. Just as the appearing of buds on trees signals the soon onset of the summer season, so do these signs show "that it is near, at the very doors" (v.33). In fact, the generation that sees the beginning of these signs (the desecration of the Jewish temple depicted in verse 15) will not pass off the scene before the Lord has returned (v.34). The "when" question--related to His unannounced return for the church (vv.36-51). After reminding His disciples that people who see the signs He had spoken of can be sure that the return will be near, Jesus began to answer the "when" question. He didn't set a date. He said His second coming would catch people by surprise. First, Jesus explained that the coming of the Son of Man would be "as the days of Noah were." In those days, despite Noah's warnings of danger, the people went about their lives as usual. There was no concern for an imminent flood, because the people didn't believe it was coming. There were no heavenly signs or unusual events--only the incessant hammering and sawing by Noah and his sons. When the rains came, the people were caught by surprise. After giving a couple of examples of what will happen when His unexpected coming takes place, our Lord makes this sobering, yet exciting warning: Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him (Matt. 24:44). How can the Lord's second coming catch people by surprise if it is going to be presignaled by all the striking and spectacular events described in Matthew 24:15-31? That's a key question. The best answer seems to be found in seeing the Lord's second coming as occurring in two stages. First He will come to catch up (or "rapture") His own people. This event will be unannounced. Then He will return to establish His kingdom over the earth. This event will be clearly presignaled. Matthew 24 describes both stages of Jesus' return: the surprise, any-moment rapture of believers (vv.36-44) and the glorious return of Jesus at the close of the tribulation to end the destruction and establish His kingdom (vv.15-35). He began with the glorious return because that was the concern of the disciples when they asked the question. He introduced the unexpected element to prepare them for the truths about the church age and rapture--truths that would be made clear after His ascension. Purposeful Ambiguity. If you have read our Lord's prophetic words recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21, you probably wish you could find somebody who would give you a crystal-clear explanation of all He said. If so, join the club! Many people have had the same experience and asked, "Why didn't He spell out the details of His second coming so clearly that we could put them together and know exactly how and when it will occur?" The answer is quite simple: He didn't set out to give us this kind of information. His aim was to teach us that we should live in continual readiness for our meeting with Him. In blending together into one picture references to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, the endtime sacrilege in the temple, the apostolic persecution, the endtime great tribulation, the signs in the heavenly bodies, and an unexpected coming, the Lord followed the pattern of the Old Testament prophets. In their prophecies they also merged, without explanation about sequence, predictions that would occur at four different time periods: (1) in their own lifetime, (2) in the near future, (3) at Messiah's first coming, and (4) at the end of time. For example, the prophecies of Jesus' birth, exaltation, rule, suffering, and death (Is. 7:14; 52:13--54:17; Jer. 23:5; Mic. 5:4) were written in such a way that they could not be placed in chronological order until they were fulfilled. We can be thankful that God doesn't tell each of us individually the exact time or manner of our death. Similarly, He didn't give us a precise answer to the what, when, and how questions regarding our Lord's return. It's better for us to live in the tension produced by the realization, "Perhaps today, but maybe not in my lifetime." Imminency Parables. At the conclusion of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told two parables that shout out the message, "Be ready!" In the first one (Matt. 24:45-51), the servant is left in charge while his master is away on a trip. He begins thinking that the owner will be gone a long time, so he abuses the people under him and lives it up. But the master returns unexpectedly and punishes him severely. In the second parable (Matt. 25:1-13), 10 virgins are invited to attend a wedding reception, but they have to wait for the arrival of the wedding procession. They know it is coming, but they don't know just when. The procession in which each person carries a lighted torch arrives, but five of the girls can't join the group because they have no oil in their torches. However, the five who are prepared become part of the rejoicing company. The message is clear. "We don't know when Jesus is coming back. Therefore, be ready!" Down through the centuries Bible expositors have applied these parables to the church. The servant who behaved wickedly and the five girls who had no oil represent professing Christians who are not truly saved. When Jesus comes unexpectedly for His own, He will punish them and exclude them from His banquet hall. What a call to readiness! What a powerful intimation of imminency! Well, it is past my bedtime as usual when I get started, so, I will check in again later. Let me know what you think about these two events. Hope everyone is ready in either event. God bless, Janice | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Angie, I didn't believe in the rapture at all and I prayed about it a lot. I believe God showed it to me in the parable of the lost son and the parable of the 10 virgins. If you want, I can send you the study I typed up. Truly, it doesn't matter, it will all happen according to plan. Some of us, LIKE ME, just wanna know stuff and can't help ourselves.  I figure, if there's no rapture...take my head, either way I know where I'm going, but I'm 99% sure there is one. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Welcome back Sabra - your church was awesome Sunday, and I loved visiting you, meeting your family, and seeing your new home! Will you send me your study on the rapture??? Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I thought you might like to read this as it pertains to prophecy and may be what is motivating Bush... Zion's Christian Soldiers c MMII, CBS Worldwide Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Prepared by Burrelle's Information Services, which takes sole responsibility for accuracy of transcription. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce any copy of the material except for user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be reproduced, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any manner that may infringe upon CBS Inc.'s copyright or proprietary interests in the material. ***** SHOW: 60 Minutes DATE: October 6, 2002 ZION'S CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS BOB SIMON reporting: What's the number-one item on the agenda of the Christian right? Abortion?School prayer? No and no. Believe it or not, what's most important to a lot of conservative Christians is the Jewish state, Israel; its size, its strength, its survival. Why so? Well, there is the alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islamic terror, but it goes deeper. For Christians who interpret the Bible in a literal fashion, Israel has a crucial role to play in bringing on the Second Coming of Christ. This Friday, thousands are expected to gather on the Mall in Washington to express their faith and to lobby the administration. The rally is being organized by the Christian Coalition, which wants to make sure that the Bush administration sees the struggle in the Middle East between Jews and Muslims their way, the Christian way. (Footage of people dancing at pep rallies; audience members) SIMON: (Voiceover) At a congregation in Colorado, it's Israel Awareness Day. But this is not a Jewish congregation, and these are not Jewish dancers. They're all Christians. Not only are they holding these pep rallies all across America, they're also streaming here to Israel... (Footage of parade) SIMON: (Voiceover) ...to the dangerous streets of Jerusalem to express their undying devotion. Unidentified Woman 1: We're forever with Israel! Hallelujah! God bless you! (Footage of parade) SIMON: (Voiceover) American Christian Zionists say they're now a more important source of support for Israel than American Jews, than the traditional Jewish lobby. Reverend JERRY FALWELL: It is my belief that the Bible Belt in America is Israel's only safety belt right now. (Footage of Falwell; congregation) SIMON: (Voiceover) The Reverend Jerry Falwell is one of the leaders of the Christian right. That's the bulk of evangelical Christians, and Falwell claims to speak for all of them. Rev. FALWELL: There are 70 million of us, and if there's one thing that brings us together quickly, it's whenever we begin to detect our government becoming a little anti-Israel. (Footage of tanks, troops) SIMON: (Voiceover) Falwell began to detect just that last April when President Bush called on Israel to withdraw its tanks from Palestinian towns on the West Bank. President GEORGE W. BUSH: Withdraw without delay. (Footage of the White House; tanks) SIMON: (Voiceover) So Falwell shot off a letter of protest to the White House, which was followed by 100,000 e-mails from Christian conservatives. Israel did not move its tanks. Bush did not ask again. Rev. FALWELL: There's nothing that would bring the wrath of the Christian public in this country down on this government like abandoning or opposing Israel in a critical matter. SIMON: This is his core constituency. Rev. FALWELL: It is. And I don't think for a moment he's going to do that. I--I--I really believe when the chips are down, Ariel Sharon can trust George Bush to do the right thing every time. (Footage of crowd, Prime Minister Sharon) SIMON: (Voiceover) Prime Minister Sharon can apparently trust the Christian evangelicals to do the right thing, too. They treated him like a rock star when they flocked to Jerusalem last week to celebrate the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles. Prime Minister ARIEL SHARON (Israel): United, with God's help and your solidarity, we will win! We will win! (Footage of crowd, celebration) SIMON: (Voiceover) With the flags of 60 nations on display, there was an Olympic air about the event. Unidentified Woman 2: The United States of America! SIMON: (Voiceover) Gold went to those who loved Israel the most. Crowd: (In unison) Israel! Israel! Israel! Israel! (Footage of celebration; historical footage from Israel) SIMON: (Voiceover) But what propels them? Why do they love Israel so much? Because the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland is seen by evangelicals as a precondition for the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore, when the Jewish state was created in 1948, they saw it as a sign. Israel's conquest of Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1967 deepened their excitement, heightened their anticipation. (Footage of tanks; buildings being blown up; wounded people; soldiers) SIMON: (Voiceover) And today's war between Jews and Arabs was also prophesized, they say. They've seen it all before in the pages of the Bible. Mr. ED McATEER: The Bible does not contain the Word of God, Bob. Listen to me closely. The Bible is the Word of God. (Footage of McAteer) SIMON: (Voiceover) Ed McAteer is known as the godfather of the Christian right. He's a former Colgate marketing executive from Memphis and was a founder of the Moral Majority. He wears his religion on his sleeve and his politics on his tie. There is a battle going on in the Middle East right now. Mr. McATEER: No question about it. SIMON: Is this the beginning of the final battle? Mr. McATEER: Bob, a--as I used to tell my salesmen, don't give me a happiness report. Tell me like it is. And so I don't push my views on people, but I'm telling you from my heart I believe that. I believe th... SIMON: The end of days is upon us? Mr. McATEER: ...I believe that we are seeing prophecy unfold so rapidly and dramatically and wonderfully and, without exaggerating, makes me breathless. (Footage of books; excerpt from "Left Behind") SIMON: (Voiceover) And he's not the only one. Countless millions of Americans are reading a series of novels called "Left Behind." They're topping best-seller lists all over the country, and they're being made into movies. They chronicle apocalyptic times. The setting is the 21st century, complete with warplanes and TV correspondents. (Excerpt from "Left Behind") SIMON: (Voiceover) But the plot is ripped from the pages of the Bible, so it all winds up here in Israel, where according to the Book of Revelations... The final battle in the history of the future will be fought on this ancient battleground in northern Israel called Armageddon. It will follow seven years of tribulation during which the Earth will be shaken by such disasters that previous human history will seem like a day in the country. The blood will rise as high as a horse's bridle here at Armageddon, before Christ triumphs to begin his 1,000-year rule. And the Jews? Well, two-thirds of them will have been wiped out by now, and the survivors will accept Jesus at last. Mr. GERSHOM GORENBERG (Author): The Jews die or convert. As a Jew, I can't feel very comfortable with the affections of somebody who looks forward to that scenario. (Footage of Gorenberg; book, "The End of Days") SIMON: (Voiceover) Gershom Gorenberg knows that scenario well. He's the author of "The End of Days," a book about those Christian evangelicals who choose to read the Bible literally. Mr. GORENBERG: They don't love the real Jewish people. They love us as characters in their story, in their play, and that's not who we are. And we never auditioned for that part, and the play is not one that ends up good for us. SIMON: It ends up with salvation for the Christians, for the people who wrote the play, but not for you. Mr. GORENBERG: Correct. If you listen to the drama that they are prescri--they're describing, essentially, it's a five-act play in which the Jews disappear in the fourth act. (Footage of Simon and Gorenberg) SIMON: (Voiceover) But if that makes Gershom Gorenberg feel uncomfortable, these Christians maintain, it's only because he doesn't understand how deeply they love him. Ms. KAY ARTHUR (Precept Ministries): The Jews need conversion. They need to know that Messiah is coming. And the Bible tells us what's going to happen. (Footage of service) Ms. ARTHUR: You're going to have to take the Word of God and get to know God so that a fellowship... (Footage of "Precepts For Life With Kay Arthur") SIMON: (Voiceover) Kay Arthur heads an organization called Precept Ministries in Chattanooga, Tennessee. She brings thousands of pilgrims to the Holy Land and has an answer for every question. This is what confuses me. Here you are, a great friend of Israel... Ms. ARTHUR: Yes. SIMON: ...great friend of the Jews. Ms. ARTHUR: Yes, and they would tell you. SIMON: But what you're saying is that some of them are going to be destroyed and some of them are going to be converted. Ms. ARTHUR: But see, I'm not saying it; God's saying it. (Footage of West Bank and Gaza; people hiking up mountain; housing) SIMON: (Voiceover) The Christian fundamentalists believe the only Israelis who are really listening to God are the hard-line Jewish settlers who live on the West Bank and Gaza and refuse to move. The Christians trudge up to these settlements as if they were making pilgrimages to holy shrines. That's because they and the settlers share a core conviction. You believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. Mr. McATEER: I believe it as much as I believe I'm sitting here looking at you right now. SIMON: It is theirs? Mr. McATEER: It is theirs. Every grain of sand between the Dead Sea, the Jordan River and the--and the Mediterranean Sea belongs to the Jew. SIMON: That includes the West Bank. Mr. McATEER: That includes every s--grain of sand... SIMON: It includes Gaza. Mr. McATEER: Every bit of it, every bit of it. (Footage of man smoking; children playing; farmers' market; cattle; from Oslo Accords ceremony) SIMON: (Voiceover) And the three million Palestinians who live on the West Bank and Gaza? McAteer suggests the bulk of them could be cleansed from this God-given real estate and moved to some Arab country. Nothing can come between the Jews and their land. In fact, many fundamentalists believe that when Prime Minister Rabin signed the Oslo Accords and offered to trade land for peace, it was not only a mistake, it was a sin. Ms. ARTHUR: They were going against the Word of God. You cannot go against the Word of God. And I believe that God stopped it. SIMON: By? Ms. ARTHUR: Well, by the things that happened. SIMON: By the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin? Ms. ARTHUR: If God--if God wounds and he heals, if he kills and if he makes alive, if he is the Lord and he does these things, then no person dies accidentally. SIMON: You think Rabin was being punished for getting involved in the peace process? Ms. ARTHUR: I think that God did not want that Oslo Accord to go through. Mr. YOSSI ALFER (Political Analyst): God save us from these people. (Footage of Yossi Alfer) SIMON: (Voiceover) Political analyst Yossi Alfer served 12 years in Israel's intelligence agency, the Mossad. Later, he became Israel director of the American Jewish Committee. Mr. ALFER: When you see what these people are encouraging Israel and the US administration to do--that is, ignore the Palestinians, if not worse, if not kick them out; expand the settlements to the greatest extent possible--they are leading us into a scenario of out-and-out disaster. (Footage of Simon and Abe Foxman) SIMON: (Voiceover) But many American Jewish leaders who used to shun support from the Christian right have changed their minds. Abe Foxman is head of the Anti-Defamation League. Do you think Israel is in such dire straits that you need to get support from whatever quarter you can? Mr. ABE FOXMAN (Anti-Defamation League): No, I wouldn't put it that way. I--again, this quarter, these evangelicals, have been supporting Israel throughout; some for religious reasons, some for theological reasons, some for political reasons. Doesn't matter. They've been there. SIMON: When you're standing next to a Christian evangelist at a pro-Israel rally, does it bother you that in his vision of the end of days, you, Abe Foxman, will disappear or be converted? Mr. FOXMAN: We believe--I believe--I'm waiting for the First Coming of the Messiah. He's waiting for the Second Coming of the Messiah. SIMON: Detail. Mr. FOXMAN: There are--it--it could be a detail. But that doesn't change the fact that on this specific issue on this day, we come together. And what is the issue? The issue is fighting terrorism. (Footage of Bush and Sharon) Pres. BUSH: Welcome, Mr. Prime Minister. Glad you're here. SIMON: (Voiceover) That's precisely what the Bush administration and the Israeli government have been saying since September 11th, that they're allies in the war on terror. But the Christian fundamentalists go further. They say it's not just an alliance between nations, but between religions. I think a lot of Muslims feel these days that Christians and Jews are getting together and ganging up on them. Rev. FALWELL: That's true. I'm sorry that's true. I hope it will cease to be so, but I think that is the fact right now. (Footage of window; from Israel) SIMON: (Voiceover) Falwell believes most Muslims want to live in peace but, he says, the lines have been drawn: Christians and Jews on one side, Muslims on the other. And, he says, those lines were drawn more than 1,000 years ago. Rev. FALWELL: I think Mohammed was a terrorist. He--I've read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and--and non-Muslims, that he was a--a violent man, a man of war. SIMON: So the same way that Moses provided the ultimate example for the Jews and the same way that Jesus provided the ultimate example for Christians, Mohammed provided the ultimate example for Muslims, and he was a terrorist? Rev. FALWELL: In my opinion. And I do believe that Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example. (Footage of Simon and Alfer) SIMON: (Voiceover) What frightens Yossi Alfer is that he hears much of Falwell's world view reflected in the words of the Bush administration. Mr. ALFER: When we hear expressions like `the evil ones,' this kind of black-and-white view of good guys and bad guys who are either with us... SIMON: But you're the good guys in Bush's mind. Mr. ALFER: ...or against us--I understand we're the good guys. SIMON: But as long as you're the good guys, this is good for the Jews, isn't it? Mr. ALFER: It's not good for the Jews. We have to get God out of this conflict if we're going to have any chance to survive as a healthy, secure Jewish state. (Announcements) END | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
This response has nothing to do with my Adventist background. Most of what I learned about eschatology as an Adventist I've had to discard. The fact is that there is no clear teaching about when the rapture will occurópre, mid, or post tribulationóand many sound evangelical scholars acknowledge that we can't know for sure. It is not a doctrinal absolute; it's one of those areas in which believing Christians agree to disagree and allow each other to have differing views. Our women's ministry leader, Elizabeth Inrig, is very a much a pre-trib person, and she expresses this view as we've been studying Jesus's teaching during the last week of his life which includes the Matthew 24 prophecies. She says, though, that she understands and is fine with the fact that many of us probably see it differently. Her husband, our senior pastor, has said that he used to be a devout pre-trib person, but the more he studies the Bible, the more questions about it he has. He teaches it, but he acknowledges there are uncertainties. The fact is that the pre-tribulation rapture is a teaching that emerged about 100 years ago. The reformers and early church fathers did not write about it. Further, this teaching is also one that is not customarily taught in other countries or in mission fields. It is primarily an American-based belief that is fairly new. While a great many reputable Bible scholars espouse it, especially those who have graduated from Dallas Seminary, it remains unprovable. It's true that there are many texts that suggest the church may leave before the tribuation is done, but it's also true that there are a great many that suggest God's people will sufer during the tribulation. It's just not known for sure. Further, the passages oten interpreted by pre-trib people as referring to the Jews exclusively, such as Jesus' teachings in Matthew 24 regarding the coming tribulation, can also be seen to mean the church inclusively. One person whose Bible scholarship I respect said to me the problem with teaching the pre-trib rapture as absolute is that if it is not so, how many people will lose faith when the trouble comes? We just can't know for sure. We can know that there will be terrible suffering in the world at large, and God's peopleówhoever that may include on earthówill be attacked. We also know that God has not removed his people who are already suffering for his sake around the world. Further, we know that the tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect, whether that includes Jews only or the church. We also know that the Holy Spirit will not leave us no matter where we are. The idea, which I've heard explained before, that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth with the church when its raptured and then the tribulation will begin is interesting. I just can't find conclusive evidence in the Bible. (Hasn't someone said we should never base a doctrine on only one text but should have at least three that support it?) I also believe (here's where my Adventist background shows up by way of contrast with my current belief!) that the millennial kingdom will be on earth, and sin will not be eradicated yet when it's established. Revelation 20 pretty much leaves me no other conclusion! Scripture also seems to suggest strongly that the Jews will figure prominently in that kingdom and that the church will reign with Christ. But exactly how and when all this will happen--I really don't believe any one of us knows for sure. I'm not dismissing the idea of the rapture. Certainly there WILL be one, whatever the timing! As a friend of mine says, "Pray for Pre, Plan for Post!" As far as that goes, I've even wondered a lot if there might be a mid-trib rapture before the wrath of God is poured out at the end of the tribulation. Some Revelation texts seem to suggest such a thing--but again, I don't feel comfortable saying I know for sure based on the suggestive but ambiguous texts we have. Certainly the end will be different from the way we learned it as Adventists! But I repeat my concern; we could become so certain that we know what will happen that we'll be shocked or even miss the real thing at first when it does happen. NO ONE expected Jesus to come as he came the first time even though they had the prophecies. While many people did recognize and believe in him, his coming was still a surprise in different ways to different people. I still believe that the prophecies will only really make sense to us as they happen. I'm grateful that I can entertain the idea of a pre or mid-trib rapture. As an Adventist, I couldn't. But I don't see enough Biblical evidence to make me certain I know how it will happen. Praying for the world, for us, and for our continual growth in Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Thanks Colleen - As always your words are encouraging and uplifting to me. I like that "pray for pre, plan for post!" Love to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Thanks Colleen, that was very well put. I too had just read yesterday that the pre-trib rapture idea only came up about 100 years ago. Don't know that I could lay my hands on that info, if I do, I'll post it. There is such diversity of opinion on end of time events that we do well to stay balanced on this so it doesn't become a point of division in the body. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I don't want to sound like the debater here, but I do believe that is a post-trib theory. Definately it will all pan out in the end for sure so any disagreements are simply that and not anything to argue about. I have done some early church studying and there were some teachers in the early church that believed in the rapture, one that I can think of is the early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. He said, quote-- ìFor all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sinsî (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373). The word rapture is not in the Bible but it comes from the word harpazo~Greek which means to be snatched up or seized as in taking out of harms way. I have a good friend who believes that only the true believers will be raptured and not the lukewarm ones, I don't agree with that yet, but I am studying his point of view. Some scriptures that really seem quite literal are: Ps. 27:5 "For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion; In the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me; He shall set me high upon a rock. Mal. 3:17 "They shall be Mine, says the Lord of hosts, On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them. Rev. 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those that dwell on the earth. Hey, we can be pan-millenialist and know that it will all pan out! | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Does anyone believe that the rapture will be for an overcomer to be caught up spiritual to be with the Lord as their body remains on earth for Jesus Christ to manifests Himself through. This could be how the Lord shares with us His glory. As far as when it begins Hosea 6: 1-3 sheds some light if you consider a day as a 1000 years according to 2 Peter 3:8 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Brad, the Bible nowhere suggests that Jesus uses soul-less bodies to manifest himself through them. The miracle and mystery of the New Covenant is that the Holy Spirit indwells us, body and spirit, as humans alive on earth. Our spirits and bodies are what make us human, and our rapture to be with the Lord is clearly portrayed as physical. It's certainly possible that the rapture may be pre-tribulation. I'm not saying it isn't or can't be. It's just unclear. By the way, the Greek for the phrase in Revelation 3:10 that's translated "keep you from" [the hour of trial] can mean either "keep you from undergoing" or "keep you through". Either way, those believers are protected by God from the devastation of the hour of trial. Praying that God will protect us all, Colleen | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Colleen, The though of a soul-less body never even entered my mind. I was thinking on the bases that we share our body with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as the bible says. We abibe in Christ and He abides in us. The though of a physical rapture would mean that Christ physical body is sitting on a clould and that doesn't sit as the truth to me. Paul said that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ and all Christains will agree. I understand that the third heaven in this sense is like the first heaven God created on the second day. God called the evaporation of water into a clould heaven. When we forsake the world and it's ways and become born again and as we walk in the Spirit our spirit assends up to be with the Lord like water assends up into a clould. But to believe that we are caught up we have to hear the last trumpet call "spiritually". The new heaven I understand to be like the second heaven or heavenlies God created on the forth. The universe is so huge that we will never know it completely in this life. Just like the new heaven where I believe is the glorified body of Jesus and which we will recieve when we physically die.This is the only thing that makes sense to me so far. But then this is only from my perspective on the subject and I may be wrong. I've been wrong before, well 10 years as an SDA for example. The though of driving a car then disappearing leaving the car to crash and kill people would not be in my opionion a perfect gift "rapture". from God. Many people would be looking back and seeing there loved ones left in the wreckage left behind would put a damper on meeting the Lord on a clould. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
This might seem out there, but you all are used to me by now. I'm not so sure we are going to be disappearing from cars and such, I wonder if there wont be a massive catastrophe where we would disappear and be presumed dead, say a nuclear war or earthquakes or both. Seems like if we disappeared like thought those left behind would know what happened and repent and find Jesus, there are enough books and movies out for them to be informed, but the Bible says the wicked increase. This might also explain why some verses seem to point to mid-trib~multiple catastrophes. Just a thought. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Another though about sharing in the glory of Christ return. In Revelation it says that Jesus will return to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Then to the overcomers in one of the seven Churches in Rev. 2 or 3 Jesus says that they will rule the nations with a rod of iron as a reward for overcoming. This gives strenght to the idea that Christ manifests Himself through our bodies that we share with Him. Him abiding in us and we abiding in Him. Wow think of it that Jesus whats to share with us His glory. No doult people will think that anything to do with this would be considered a cult. But what a cop out from the truth if it be. The way the majority of people believe in end times today they may end up believing Jesus Christ to be the antichrist who rules the earth. This is one of the reasons I believe that Jesus shares in His glory with all believers and will not return in just one human body. Eph.5: 30 that we are members in His body that we share with Him. And that we are of His flesh and bone. Another thing: In 2 Peter 3 Peter portrays the end with fire that melts everything but John portrays the day of the Lord with making war with the nations until they give their dominion s to Jesus Christ. The only way this makes sense to me is that The Day of the Lord is a 1000 years of ruling over the nations then Satan is released for the pit for a short time then the sun super novas or blows up and melts everything with fire as Peter said in 2 Pter 3. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Sabra; I doubt very much that people will be disappearing secretly and leaving vehicles unmanned. The text in 1 Thessalonians 4 which describes Jesus returning for his people pictures him in the clouds--just as the angel told the disciples when Jesus ascended (Acts 1)--with a trumpet call and a command. He will bring with him those that have died, and the righteous dead will be resurrected. Then all of us who remain alive will also be caught up to join him in the air. Since this coming and catching us up to be with him (rapture) is also the time of the resurrection of the righteous, this is the point at which we receive our new bodies. Resurrection bodies are not the same as our bodies now. (See 1 Corinthians 15, I believe it is.) This rapture is the event about which so many people disagree. Will it happen pre, mid, or post tribulation? It does seem clear that the millennial kingdom will occur after this event, and we will reign with Christ. The new heaven and the new earth, I believe, will appear after the millenium after Satan and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. Then the heavens and earth will melt, and a new heaven and new earth will appear. Revelation seems quite clear about that sequence. Jesus is already sharing his glory with us by indwelling us, but that glory is increasing as we grow in him until he completely tranforms us by redeeming our bodies with resurrection bodies. (see 2 Corinthians 3) The angel told the watching disciples that the same Jesus that they watched go into heaven will return the same way he went. He will physically return to "rapture" is to be with him. Praising God for already being in the future, Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Lydell and Colleen, Here is the information that you two were speaking on about who and when the rapture question began,and the explanation of why the word rapture is used is found here too. The web site I gave you might not work since they have changed it somewhat. www.discoveryseries.com might work better for anyone interested in the online study. Here is some of that study: A common objection to the any-moment, pretribulational doctrine of Christ's return relates to its supposed recent origin. Some posttribulationists attempt to show that it began in the 1820s with an unstable Scottish clergyman named Edward Irving. They say that he was the first person to develop the idea that Christ's return would occur in two stages, and that an eccentric named Margaret Macdonald picked up on his teaching during the 1830s. Then, a few years later, J. N. Darby and several other Plymouth Brethren teachers further developed the idea of the two-stage return. Posttribulationists tell us to reject the any-moment rapture idea because it, like the teachings of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, is of recent and dubious origin. BEFORE WE OBEY THESE CRITICS AND BID FAREWELL TO OUR BELIEF IN THE RAPTURE, LET'S THINK THROUGH THEIR CHARGE!!! Was the any-moment teaching really new? Did the two-stage teaching originate with evil, irresponsible people as posttribulationists claim? Did the teaching of the second coming develop differently from other important doctrines? We'll find that each of the above questions can be given a solid answer of no. 1. The any-moment idea was not new. The writings of the church fathers are filled with warnings to live in continual readiness for our Lord's return. These men applied the parable of Jesus about the wise and foolish virgins to the people of their age, urging them to keep their lamps burning so they would be ready for Jesus at His return for them. They probably didn't see the need to develop a concept of two stages in the Lord's return because they tended to identify the Antichrist with the Roman Empire and sometimes thought of themselves as already in the great tribulation. Christians down through the centuries, mindful of the warning of Jesus that His coming would catch the world by surprise, never felt comfortable saying that Jesus Christ could not come at any moment. Many Christians expected Christ's return during great natural disasters like earthquakes or tornadoes. When the dust storms during the early 1930s caused an eerie daytime darkness in some of our midwestern states, many Christians panicked, thinking that the second coming was at hand. The idea that the Lord could come at any moment certainly did not originate with Edward Irving. In fact, it didn't even originate with Darby. He simply tried to develop a biblical viewpoint that would explain how the imminent-return idea could be harmonized with the teaching of the Bible about a tribulation prior to the return. 2. The Plymouth Brethren who developed the two-stage teaching were biblical scholars. The claim that Irving and Macdonald clearly taught the two-stage second coming doctrine rests on flimsy evidence. In fact, their writings on this subject are confusing. While Darby and his Plymouth Brethren associates may have picked up some ideas from Irving and Macdonald, they developed their teaching through a careful and systematic study of the Scriptures in the original languages. They were systematic in the application of the Scriptures. They rejected some elements of Irving's teachings and produced a sane and coherent doctrine of last things. These men, like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Wesley, had flaws and blind spots. But like them, they were also sincere men of God who made tremendous contributions to the church in both leadership and doctrine. 3. The method of development for this two-stage return idea is similar to that of other doctrines. The doctrines of justification, sanctification, and God's sovereignty, though taught by Christian leaders down through the centuries, were never as fully developed as they were by Luther, Calvin, and Wesley. Throughout the years of church history, the Holy Spirit has led the Lord's people into clearer understanding of God's Word in every area of Christian doctrine, including that of the second coming. In summary, the claim that we should abandon the pretribulation, any-moment doctrine of Christ's return because of a recent and dubious origin carries no weight. The logic that rejects a teaching on this basis demands that we also reject Luther's teaching on justification, Calvin's insights into God's sovereignty, and Wesley's contributions toward an understanding of sanctification. OBJECTION: The Rapture Is Not in Scripture. If we are to consider ourselves people who "go by the Book," we have to be careful that we never support an argument by adding to the Bible something that isn't there. One of those "somethings" that isn't found in God's Word is the word rapture. When we use this word to designate the time of Jesus' return in the air to take His followers to heaven, though, WE ARE NOT VIOLATING SCRIPTURE!!!For example, the word Trinity doesn't appear in the Bible, but posttribulationists don't deny its truth. Where, then, does the term "rapture" come from? In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul said that living believers will be "caught up" with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. The Greek word Paul used here is harpazo, which means "to snatch away." WHEN THE BIBLE WAS TRANSLATED INTO LATIN,THE SCHOLARS RENDERED HARPAZO AS RAPTURO. IT IS JUST A SHORT STEP THEN FROM RAPTURO TO THE ENGLISH WORD RAPTURE!!! Therefore, although it is true that the word itself does not appear in our English translation of Scripture, the SENSE of the word IS surely there. Christians will be snatched away when the Lord descends with a shout. I hope that this answers some of the questions that I have seen in the forum. God bless you all and pray for me as I try to sing again for my church tonight. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Angie, I have to mention that the "Left Behind" series, although they may scare some folks into getting into a church and searching for truth, the books and videos are not scriptural. There will be no "second chance" for anyone who ever really heard the true gospel of grace and had clear understanding and willingly turned away from that truth. The Bible says this: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:11 & 12 This passage is quiet clear in the fact that unbelievers will not get a second chance but will be damned. When scripture passages speak of "those saved during the tribulation" it is speaking of those who heard the gospel preached by the 144,000 Jewish priests during the tribulation period or "time of Jacob's trouble" and we all know that most of the Jews in Israel are orthodox which means that they are still living in the Old Testament as they still await their Messiah, who will in fact be THE Antichrist that will perform all kinds of signs and lying wonders. He will bring about peace talks but will break them after 3 1/2 years and then all hell will break loose, referred to as the GREAT tribulation. I need to get up and begin getting ready for tonight, I am still nervous, this will be my fourth time to sing in front of anyone "solo". God bless, Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Brad, Did you ever see my post that spoke about a day equaling 1000 years? It is like this: From the beginning of time until the flood was 2000 years and from the flood until Christ was another 2000 years and then from Christ until now is another 2000 years which equals 6000 years total. If a day is as a thousand years and the Lord made everything in six days and rested on the Sabbath, it would appear that the millenial reign of Christ on the throne of David (while Satan is bound in the abyss) with the lion lying down with the lamb is in fact the seventh day or Sabbath in Christ. Just thought I would throw that in for some food for thought in case you missed it the first time I gave it in a post. Janice |
