| Author | Message | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I thought I would start this thread and see if I have anyone interested in commenting on it. Several of us in the forum have been accused of not having a good spirit and because we choose to use the terms cult, cultic, demon, demonic, and Satanic, we have come under fire as being "unchristlike" and as I can honestly say here, I am sorry if any feelings have been hurt by the use of those terms in any of my posts but feel that I use those terms as definition and not simply to be "calling someone names" as some choose to believe. I will restate that I am not a former SDA but have long-time family members who have joined as adults and have turned away from their original doctrine of grace that Jesus gave his disciples to preach to a lost and dying world. I will be doing a study on the book of Acts and have already done one on the book of I John for anyone interested. I have many opinions on many subjects and am glad that I have a place to visit and discuss. My husband is very happy that I find such contentment here in the forum but has been very disappointed with some of my email correspondence of late and has put his foot down concerning that matter. He justs wants to go on record that he is a very happily married man and contented in every aspect, other than a money shortage, ha, ha. Guess we all could use some more of that, right? For the record too, he happens to love his lazy-boy recliner and is quiet contented to take a snooze while I take a little time to discuss spiritual matters here. He figures that by my getting enlightenment that it is helping him grow as well. He would even address some people but he thinks it is best to adhere to the instructions of my friends as well and just leave it around. Like he says "ignore it long enough and maybe it will go away". Mike is back in Alabama this evening without me since I was so late getting in bed last night, and he is working in his mother's garden getting it ready for planting if it ever gets dry enough. Like I said, duty calls me outdoors, but I just wanted to see if I got those instructions right. Maybe I did, I am about to find about. Bye for now. Janice | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
My definition of a cult is when a group of people have their focus on a man instead of Jesus Christ. The man that is their leader is usually exulted way above measure as a prophet and will says things that Jesus did not say. But the focus is usually on the leader and what he says as being the truth. And true leader of God will never allow people to look at him as if he is something. And true leader of God will always acknowledge Christ in him doing anything that is worth honour and respect and will consider other people in the Lord as better than he is. Paul considered himself a chief among sinners. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Brad, Thanks for the comment, and that was my same general description that I gave to Bob when he got so bent out of shape. I am truly sorry that he feels the need to quit learning simply because we call it like it is, but a bit of advice would be to move on and quit opening yourself up to the pain. I was going through some of the archives and read a post from MaryAnn that told how she had been burned out of her house and even had her horse poisoned and how she daydreamed continously about how to personally get even with the man that did it. MaryAnn talked about how this ate away at her for years and years until it finally occured to her that she was wasting time that could be spent on better things. I would suggest that instead of wasting time trying to find fault with every little thing that is said and done in the name of religion, that that time would be better spent with the Lord and asking the Holy Spirit to heal our hearts instead of filling it with anger and seeking ways of "getting even" with the person/persons that are the source of that anger and frustration. I am offended at all of the name-calling that keeps coming up in my personal email and guess that I do need to block it out,all of that has come my way but I must be like MaryAnn, I have to forgive and get on with it. At the risk of saying it for the fiftieth time: A double-minded man is UNSTABLE in all his ways and needn't even think that God will send him enlightenment when he knows that our hearts aren't going to open to receive it. It is also double-minded to say that we need to stay scriptural and when someone sends scripture truth to refer to it as uninspired while turning around and saying go to this web site and read about this man or that man, God help you to see that we should quit reading about men and start reading about THE MAN!!! I know that this isn't all about the use of the word cult which is why I started the thread but thought that I would post this to get it off to a good start. I will mention though that as I sat in church Sunday, the preacher made mention of the fact that even Jim Jones and his followers began their cult by reading and quoting from the Holy Bible, and then it was too late to help those poor fools that followed him, for those that got scared and tried to run instead of actually taking the koolaid/arsenic, trained gunmen mowed them down in cold blood, and it makes me stop and wonder how many are hell-bound as a result. I find myself constantly torn between two trains of thought as I have mentioned before. I do believe in eternal security, but my thoughts are this, how do we know who is saved but backsliding on God and who just thinks they got it and use that thought as an open license to sin? Having said that, I will say that just last week I had a wonderful day of witnessing for Jesus with a coworker and that man told me that he was saved, and I came in yesterday to find that this same man got fired because he and two other coworkers were caught stealing boxes of meat from Zartic. The bottom line is that only God knows who received his son and who just did lip service. I also read a thread here concerning fear of hell and asked if this fear had anything to do with the reason for getting saved. I really enjoyed those good responses that said it had nothing to do with it and would add to that thread this: My sister that is an active SDA told me once that she wasn't saved when everyone saw her get baptized and that she was only answering the call from fear of hell fire, so, I would be inclined to agree with her, if that is the reasoning behind a person getting in a church roll book then that is ALL that they did and the same goes for those that have NO convictions when they steal or do other similar sins, but I will say that we all have sinned and will continue to sin daily just as the Bible says we will, we just have to learn to listen to the Holy Spirit and quit grieving him so much, and that is what I am truly trying to do by staying with the forum and listening to everyone and hoping that something I say that help all of you in return. Goodbye for the morning, see you later. Janice | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
Dear List, In order to offer a definition of a cult, I should just like to paste a section of an article I wrote on Roman Catholicism, which is the major religion here (Hungary), to deal with the question as to whether it is a cult or not: "What is a cult? Daniel Shaw claims that, ìCults form around paranoid, sociopathic leaders who gain power, and often great wealth, through control and exploitation of members.î Margaret T. Singer approaches the question as a psychologist and not as a theologian, and she states that, in contrast to the standard churches, cults are always about money and profit. In this way, a cult may promise people ìthe solution,î but sooner or later the members will be hurt and not helped, as the leaders are looking to their own interests, and not to those of their followers. Enroth and Alexander take another approach to this question, and differentiate between sociological cults and theological cults. In a sociological understanding, the faith which is customary and acknowledged in a particular society is not a cult, e.g. Sunni Islam is not a cult in Saudi Arabia, and neither is the Orthodox Church in Romania. As the Roman Catholic Church is the largest in Hungary, from a sociological point of view it cannot be considered a cult, in fact, it can happen, that a Catholic believer can feel justified in regarding everyone as a cultist who does not belong to that movement. The problem with this view, is that when we consider that different religions are the accepted norm in different countries, then we still do not receive an answer to the question as to which church is true, and which are cults. From a theological point of view, on the other hand, those groups are normative which insist that the Bible is the foundation of all theology and practice. If for certain groups some other criterion is of equal significance or even surpasses the Bible, including false or unique Biblical interpretations, they are cults. In the present study, the question as to whether the Roman Catholic Church is a cult will be approached from this third angle. Following this thread, an important insight is provided by the Romanian Baptist Pastor Iosif Þon, ìEvery religion is defined by two absolutely essential factors, which are determined by the answers given to two fundamental questions: 1) What is the source of information for that religion? and 2) What solution does that religion provide for re-establishing the relationship between man and God?î The same two criteria are considered by Enroth and Alexander, in order to define a cult from the Biblical, theological point of view: 1. A false or inadequate basis of salvation. The apostle Paul drew a distinction that is utterly basic to our understanding of truth when he said, ìBy grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boastî (Eph. 2:8-9). Inasmuch as the central doctrine of biblical Christianity is the sacrificial death of Christ for our sin, all cultic deviations tend to downplay the finished work of Christ and emphasise the importance of earning moral acceptance before God through our own religious works as a basis of salvation. 2. A false basis of authority. Biblical Christianity by definition takes the Bible as its yardstick of the true, the false, the necessary, the permitted, the forbidden, and the irrelevant. Cults, on the other hand, commonly resort to extra-biblical documents or contemporary ìrevelationî as the substantial basis of their theology (e.g. Mormons). While some cult groups go through the motions of accepting the authority of Scripture, they actually honour the groupís or leader's novel interpretation of Scripture as normative (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christadelphians)." I hope that may provide one or two things to think about. God bless, Doc | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
My definition of a cult is: Any group or organization that recruits members by offering something that supposedly no one else has and intimidating members from leaving for fear of losing that thing that no one else has. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doc, thanks for the excellent post. You've distilled the question down to the basic elements: the way to be saved, and the absolute authority of scripture. Any deviation from either of those produces a false religion and a deep hold of guilt, fear, and obligation in its members. I like your definition, too, Sabra! I also want to comment on the question of security you raised, Janice. I don't believe it is our job to know which people are really saved and which aren't. God looks at the heart; we cannot. While I do think it's possible for us to have a sense of some people's relationships with Christ because of the fruits of their lives, we cannot always know if a person is saved or lost. Saved people sometimes sin egregiously, and that doesn't make them no longer God's. Paul talks about restoring such people through discipline (1 Corinthians 5:4), and he also talks about God judging his people's behavior with severe discipline for the sake of salvation. (1 Corinthians 11:27-32) In the context of God judging our behaviors when we belong to him, Paul also says we should examine ourselves so we don't come under God's judgment. In other words, be obedient to the Holy Spirit's work in you and surrender to Jesus the sins He points out in your life. Further, we are told to confront a brother when he sins against us. I don't believe we can always know or are even necessarily supposed to know another person's eternal status. We have to leave those questions of behavior contradicting confession in God's hands. They may give us hints as to the struggles in a person's life, but they may not tell us the eternal condition of his or her soul. In this, as in everything else, we are apparently to walk by faith. Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Hi Everybody, Praise God for such an excellent study on cults, Doc you really know how to cover all points, and I know that this truly had to come from God. It is awesome and I feel inferior in anything else that could be added to the thread. I have lost some more posts; last night I was mentioning in the thread about grace verses law and how you canít have it both ways. I have mentioned that I am reading in the book of Acts now, well, I was commenting that Acts 15:5-10 spoke of ìsavedî Pharisees and here is the text with key words in all caps: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which BELIEVED, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to COMMAND [them] to keep the LAW of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much DISPUTING, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made CHOICE among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should HEAR the word of the GOSPEL, and BELIEVE. And God, which KNOWETH THE HEARTS, bare them witness, GIVING THEM THE HOLY GHOST, even as [he did] unto us; And put NO difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by FAITH. Now therefore why TEMPT ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR? But we BELIEVE that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ WE SHALL BE SAVED, even as they. I read several of your posts last night and many of you made mention of how great the book of Galatians is, well, I do agree but look at these few verses and just praise God, right? I went on to read the entire chapter and when it got into the 19th verse, I found that this is what decision was made concerning preaching law mixed with grace, in v.23 they wrote letters, v.24 says that they had heard that the new converts were being TROUBLED with words and an attempt to SUBVERT them by commanding them to keep the LAW and went on to clarify that this was not something that the church was commanding to be done, v.25 goes on to say that since they were assembled together, they decided to send two men to them to clarify the gospel that was to be preached, v.26, 27 says that these two men have risked their lives to get the gospel of grace sent out and they would be coming with the letter to tell the same thing by mouth. In v.28 just listen to this one: For it seemed GOOD to the HOLY GHOST, and to us, to lay upon you NO GREATER BURDEN than these necessary things. What were those necessary things? Verse 29 simply states: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Doesnít that just about wrap it up? It doesnít sound complicated at all to me. The chapter sums it up with these verses: So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they DELIVERED THE EPISTLE: [WHICH] WHEN THEY HAD READ, THEY REJOICED FOR THE CONSOLATION. Having said all that, what more do we need to hear? The letter was read, the mistake was corrected and when the assembly heard the good news, they REJOICED for the CONSOLATION. I believe that when the Bible tells us to COMFORT ONE WITH THESE WORDS that it means more than just the text about the return of Christ. We are to assemble together, pray for one another, and REJOICE in our salvation which is by GRACE +nothing. Amen and amen. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
I would like to add this to the cult thread. About 20 years ago a young man from our Church was duped into the Moonies. This man is a highly intelligent man coming from a prominent family of which his father was a doctor. When he went to college his faith was challenged and as he was looking for something more in his life he fell prey to this mind altering group. His parents enlisted the aid of deprogramers and was taken from the group and deprogramed. He then some time later spoke in our church and told of the seduction and shared Bible verses to know if in fact a group was a cult. At that time I was not an ardent student of the Bible as I am now but did want to know how to protect those I loved from becoming insared in this sort of thing, thus even when I did not know it God was working in my life as He has so many many times. The Bible that I had in my possession then was the Bible that I now go to to find out what those scriptures were that he told us to look to to determine a cult. This is the only thing that I have marked in this Bible. These are the verses:2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. At that time I thought: Alright now I have what I need to know if in fact a group is a cult. Surely I would be able to tell if they were denying Christ or not and I think even then in the back of my mind I thought "It can't be that easy. I now realize that it can and is much more subtle than it appears and only the Spirit of the Living God will bring you to all truth. Just one quick note; This man is the same man that my son referred to when our son-in-law became involved with SDA. Our son early on said this is a cult and then made the statement "if -------------------could become duped into a cult anyone could. If I was to give you the name of this person you could find his name listed on many web sites as a very accomplished person today. I would also add that while it is true what my son said, that anyone could be duped into a cult I myself know that it cannot happen if the power of God Almighty is leading you. Those of you who came out of SDA and contine with your believe in Jesus Christ have found that Almighty leading. How can I say it not even knowing you? I can say it because I hear Jesus Christ uplifted. I do not hear damnable heresies,denying the Lord that bought you, but rather I hear Jesus Christ just like Paul says But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Praise God for His leading in all things, Carol | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Carol, Thanks for the post. I am glad that Denise encouraged me to start up the thread. I was hoping to get more into discussion here this weekend but everyone has really done such a great job on expounding on the truths of cults that I can't add a whole lot more to what has already been said in just that one post of Doc's,wow, so, maybe we should start venturing out now into explaining why we use the terms demonic or Satanic and why we feel the need to expose "the father of lies" to others who may be considering joining the SDAs and also let's pray for those who are still struggling with trying to get along with loved ones that are still entangled with them. I was going to do as my Sunday School teacher taught us once and that was to begin the topics off with a plain and simple dictionary definition and build on it from there. I did notice that several words that contained the root "cul" were very interesting in themselves. I immediately thought of the word "cul-de-sac" and visualized them and noted that it is a place in the road that turns you completely around, isn't that interesting? Did you ever think that this is also a part of the word "culture" and what does that word mean? It is referring to a group of people who share in the same basic lifestyles and beliefs and is often an entire nation or at the least, a general area with their way of talking, eating, and/or thinking, example: northerners and southerners. Also, I thought of what Mike has been doing this week over at his mom's house. He has been working up the ground for her garden, and every year Lois plants the seeds and "cultivates" the soil. What does that mean? It means that SHE plants what SHE wants to grow and SHE works the ground and sets the rows and ties the strings and such in order for that garden to grow HER way, right? (Note that I am generalizing and know who makes the garden grow, okay?)One more word that I will mention tonight is this one "cultured, as in cultered pearls" and what is the difference in a natural pearl and a cultured pearl? The big difference is that a PERSON will take a small piece of material and inject it into an oyster's shell to force the oyster to secrete the mother of pearl that shapes around the object to form a pearl, so again you can see the analogy, at least I did anyway!!! Oysters do what comes natural to them and will FORCE their "lifeblood" of sorts around this object until this object is "surrounded" by it until you no longer SEE the grain of sand that is hidden deep within. As humans, we are all born with an emptiness inside that God created for him to dwell in but with man's free will, man often searches in the wrong places to fill the void and Satan knows the truth but will place that grain of sand/doubt in our hearts and then he works on us slowly but surely and with so many options these days, it is very easy to get the wrong peart cultivated in our souls and if we are not careful then Satan will lead us into a trap and without the intervening of the saints on our behalf, we would be just as lost and undone as any cult member. That is the best way that I have seen to describe what cults do to a person and don't apologize for calling a duck exactly what it is, a duck!!! I have seen so many in this forum that have been so damaged by the SDAs that they have retreated into their own worlds in such a way that they tend to find a demon behind every bush, sometimes it appears that no church seems to be good enough for them due to the fear of getting once again entangled by a bunch of lies and false doctrines. It is truly such a trauma that I am sure some will be hurt at my even mentioning it, but praise God for people like Colleen and Richard who have taken the time to create this forum, and I am more than sure that when their opening page states that they will not "tolerate" name-calling and flames and such to go on here, it is not to see that we can't pull the covers off the devil and call him for what HE is and his influence and his fallen angels that have always been active in destroying us in every way that they possibly can and this is commonly known as "Satanic" meaning "of Satan" and "demonic" meaning "of demons" so, if anyone continues to get offended at these references, all I can say is that they need to just find another place to haunt. I will not continue to allow Satan and his demons to grieve me with stupid annoying emails that demean my character when I am only trying to express myself and offer sympathy and understanding to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ while encouraging them to stand in their liberty found in Jesus Christ and in him only and know that they are truly doing the same for me. I will close in saying too that even though I love to discuss the rapture and know that they're fifty different opinions, I don't see that our voiced opinions on the subject are worth having a division over, and I don't see how the rapture theory in any way could have any effect on sound Bible doctrine nor does it have anything in the world to do with our salvation, other than it means that the saints are called home to be with the Lord, that is. The belief in the rapture is not essential as a step in receiving forgiveness and salvation, so, why get bent out of shape over it? I don't and I don't see anyone here in the forum that seems to be ill over anything I have said thus far either and even if someone disagrees, then as some have said here, "we can agree that it is alright to disagree" and another posted that "we shouldn't major on minors", right? So, having said all of that, I will hope to discuss as to why some of us have the blinders off to satanic attack and demonism found in false churches, so, pray for me that I will get on one subject at a time and pray that this demonic attack will let up on me, but even if it doesn't and I find I have a thorn in my flesh to buffet me, then I will just say "praise God" because what doesn't kill me only serves to make me stronger. God helps us all as we get ready for the harvest, night time is coming and we won't be able to work. Amen, Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I was trying to find an online source for everyone to go to for a study on the seven fundamentals of our faith and what MEN/cults are now saying/teaching on the subjects. The seven subjects that I want to present in this thread on cults are: God, Christ, Holy Spirit, Sin, Redemption, Salvation, and Retribution. I found a web site that has a page for ordering a package of 15 tracts titled The Spirit Of Truth And The Spirit Of Error that was written by Keith L. Brooks and revised by Irvine Robertson. This is the tract that I purchased several years ago when my SDA sister was trying to "win me over" to her way of thinking. I emphasize the "win me over" because she knows that I received my salvation when I was eleven years old, she also knows that we didn't really have a good, solid, home with Jesus as its foundation which eventually led to all of us going off in every direction while "being tossed to and fro with EVERY wind of doctrine" and I just thank God that I continued in THE faith and got anchored on the rock. By the way, I will mention again that my sister says that she makes NO apology for stating that EGW was sent as a true prophetess for HER church and not the church, guess she means that the SDAs are the true remnant church and the rest of us are just poor fools that are asking for God's wrath to fall on us since we won't believe the SDA teachings. Well, I don't guess she means that, I know that she thinks that she knows that the SDAs are the only true church because the rest of us have been deceived by the antichrist which they teach as being "all other religious groups" that refuse the enlightenment that the SDAs are trying to shed on a lost and dying world. My family was raised up with Baptist doctrine, and I know that some may think of Baptists as a bunch of folks who take their salvation for granted and use our gift as a license to sin and some even believe that we Baptists just join the church out of fear that is generated by our theology on eternal damnation in a literal eternally burning hell, my sister even told me this and now claims that she can willingly follow the "ten commandments" out of love seeing as how she has "learned" that eternal hell is a false Baptist doctrine. For anyone reading this post and tends to agree with her or maybe clings to that part of your former adventist upbringing, may I give you some warning, you had better be praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you before you take eternal hell for a lie from Satan, just who do you think wants you there in the first place, amen?. I will say that in the first place, that we Baptists do not teach that we can do as we please, you will definitely find people in every denomination who THINK they have the assurance of salvation but never really asked the Lord into their hearts, therefore, they never had the born again experience that Jesus told Nicodemus (a religious leader who knew the law) that we all must have. Sorry, I won't get off on defending my denominational affiliation this morning because after all--the Bible says that WE are the body and as long as CHRIST is the head and we take him and HIS word, found in the NEW TESTAMENT, as our one and only source of hope, we will fare well (Acts 15:29) Remember too that Jesus is the living word that came and dwelt with us and taught his disciples for three and a half years on the essentials and taught them that they should be servants and when he left forty days after the resurrection, he told his disciples to WAIT in Jerusalem and he would send them a comforter, this comforter is the Holy Spirit which we Christians are to draw upon for our every need, there is power in the Holy Spirit and power in the name of Jesus and the Holy Spirit gives us insight into the word and is the teacher, and scripture says that IF we have him in our hearts then we don't need anyone to TEACH us. I hope though that no one takes this to mean that we don't need Christian fellowship and preachers and teachers to expound on the scriptures. If we take this stance, it is like saying that we do not need to go to a doctor when we are sick. God gave the doctors the intelligience of the human body and how to diagnose and heal but even so, Jesus is still the only true physician, and is still the final authority when it comes to our healing be it mental, spiritual, or physical, so I hope you all understand what I am trying to say. If you don't get it, then the devil just may get a foothold and make you think that you don't need anything or anybody else but believe me, this is not making double-talk and I hope the analogy of the doctors will help you to see my point, well, I had better stop before I confuse myself here, but if you can get it, feel free to help me out, please. Some of you are just so much better at expounding than I am and can offer more insight, maybe a different angle on what I tried to say, okay? Regardless though, we do not need the added input of cult leaders such as those found in Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Christian Science, Spiritualism, Armstrongism, Eastern Mysticism, Unity (what a joke), Unification Church, and The Way International, to name just the top few cults that come to mind, and with the added input of Ms. E.G. White we should place a lot of caution on anything that she writes especially in light of the fact that the true light has been shed on her many lies and distortions of scripture which God plainly says is NOT of ANY man's PRIVATE interpretation. How does the Bible say we are to know IF someone is teaching truth or error? Doesn't our Bible warns us to try/test the spirit in which someone edifies with? Are we not suppose to use the Bible as the FINAL authority and aren't we warned that if what is preached or taught doesn't match up with the written word that we are to TOTALLY disregard it? Lastly, the Bible says that we are NOT TO FEAR those who tell us lies, so why are the SDAs so caught up in FEAR? This fear divides families and this forum is a living testimony, if nothing more, that there is truly demonic forces at work within the SDA system, amen? Back to my reason for this post. These are the cultic groups that are highlighted and expounded on in this brochure that I mentioned and can be purchased at this web site for anyone interested in passing them out as a witnessing tool. I do hope to be taking excerpts from the tract and posting them in this thread I started which deals with cults, so, here is that web page: http://www.moodypublishers.org/catalog.php?action=view_product&id=388 This is a great site for purchasing all kinds of helpful study aids other than the one I mentioned, so, enjoy browsing the site. Now duty calls, have a great weekend with your church family, amen. Janice | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Just last Sunday the ministers sermon was titled, "What is The Church?" And, he went on and gave five definations of The Church. I will now try to remember the five. They are: 1: The building itself that has been dedicated as a House of Worship. 2: The body of ALL believers in the one true God, made up of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. 3: The greater denomination, such as Baptist, Lutheran, Nazarene, etc. 4: The local body of believers that get together for worship, such as, "When two or more are gathered together there I am also". And last, 5: The individual himself or herself as in, "You are the temple of the Lord." And, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit resides in all believers. I will say one of the main drawing points of my becomming a bonified member of a local Lutheran congreation was/is their teaching of the Universal Church. After having been raised SDA and also knowing a lot o JW's I was not about to let myself get hooked on a church that taught that they and they only had ALL TRUTH. Now, the title of this discussion is. "What is a cult?" Well, there are many different sorts of cults. Now all are necessarilly bad. I think a lot of times what starts out being just a group whose partisiptants have a common interest will trun into a cult. But, I think on this discussion you are specifically referring to what would be considered a Christian Cult, that is a denomination that claims to be Christian but deviates from the basic teachings of Christianity. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Susan, I really enjoyed those five descriptions that constitute a church and it is very true, and having said that, I guess I need to get up from this computer and get ready for morning service. I just needed to come to the forum and ask for prayer concerning problems in the forum. Please email me, all of you, and let me know where I stand among you all. Janice | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi All, The late Walter R. Martin (one-time friend to the SDA church, but changed his mind before his death in '89) used to say, "You can be right about every doctrine in the Bible, but if you are wrong about the person, nature and work of Jesus Christ, you are wrong enough to lose your soul for all eternity." Martin's work on the Kingdom of the Cults is still considered one of the primary resources for Christians and is considered one of the top 5 books to be had in a Christian library, although I now differ with his final take on Adventism as stated in that book. I used to have a fairly well-thought-out list of how to define a cult. However, like some of Janice's "long-time family members" I joined the SDA church as an adult, after having had a wonderful conversion to Christ 8 years earlier at the age of 17. After joining the SDA church, all those definitions didn't seem to make much sense to me anymore. It also became apparent that most of my fellow Adventists had little to no interest in the problem of cults. Due to my experience of leaving the fold, and the Amazing Grace of God, I now realize that Martin's primary definition must be my main point. There are cults that are cultic in primarily in their theology. Some are cultic primarily in their social/communal practices. Some are cultic in their physical/psychological abuse of members. Adventism is cultic in its theology, and in its social/communal practice, and psychologically as well. The most succesful cults on the American landscape have had a careful blend of many cultic elements. However, the primary cultic point with absolutely every one of them is their teaching of the person, nature and work of Jesus. Once God straightened me out on that (and there's probably some more straightening to do!), and the very subtle, but dangerous teachings of the sanctuary and scapegoat, then I became free from the lies. If we resolve to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified, we will go a long way in protecting ourselves and others from the dangerous attraction of the those "sheep" who are inwardly ravenous wolves. (Now that I don't have to carry my (laptop) computer into the kitchen to get on the internet, maybe I'll visit & write a little more often!) Steve | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Steve, it's good to see you here! GREAT comments about cults and our defense against them! Thanks. Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Steve, you are so right to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. I might add just like Paul 1 Cor. 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;. When I said this in effect to my son-in-law (exact words it is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ) he said and the word and I said yes and the word was made flesh John 1:14 and we hung it on a tree and it was dead and buried and came back to life and it is still Jesus Christ and then the conversation ends. I say that if it were only Jesus Christ as He(God in the beginning) planned for it to be then everything would fall into place. May God be glorified thru His Son and His Son only, Carol | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Colleen & Carol, Since the Former Adventist Fellowship is currently studying the book of Romans, I will refer to a wonderful book by Donald Gray Barnhouse. Volume 1 (of 4) on his commentary on Romans contains the following: "... if you want to have great spiritual warmth in your heart and being, take the Bible and know that Christ Jesus is in every part of it. There is absolutely no means of comprehending the Word of God without realizing that all of it is about the Lord Jesus Christ. We sometimes sing: More about Jesus in His word, Holding communion with my Lord, Hearing His voice in every line, Making each faithful saying mine." (pg. 33) On page 31 he provides the following: ... St. Augustine, has left us a little rhymed couplet in Latin to tell us how the Old and New [testaments] are tied together: In Novo Testament patet Quae in Vetare latet. This means that in the New Testament the things were 'patet', patent, open, clear, comprehensible, which in the Old Testament were 'latet', latent, obscure, hidden." Quoting Martin Luther, he says, "Enfolded in the Old; Unfolded in the New." "One has written: The New is in the Old concealed, The Old is by the New revealed; while yet another Bible student has it: The New is in the Old contained, The Old is in the New explained." And then on page 33 he refers us to Jesus Himself who, "... beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." It is true, Carol. It all comes back to Jesus. Even if I say that "I have been crucified in Christ, yet I live" I must then continue on to say, "yet not I, but Christ lives in me!" Steve | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Steve, I really like all those rhymes, and it is just like the Bible tells us "the gospel is simple." Thanks, Janice | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
WHAT IS A CULT? Having given considerable thought and study about a definition for the word CULT, my conclusion is the following, simple definition: A CULT IS ANY GROUP, MOVEMENT, CHURCH, OR DENOMINATION THAT DENIES THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. Admittedly, this definition may include some large organizations. MORE DECEPTION IN LINCOLN, NEBRASKA! Both the brochures and the radio spots last week announced the stimulcast meetings by Lonnie Melashenko of the VOP at the Piedmont Park COMMUNITY CHURCH?? (however, the official name is: Piedmont Park Seventh-day Adventist Church). Lonnie is attempting to decipher the Battle of Armagaddon and other scary topics. This reminds me of the Reorganized LDS Church (Mormons) that now officially call themselves "THE COMMUNITY OF CHRIST." In a previous Revelation Seminar, the folks at Piedmont Park SDA Church actually covered their church sign with a canvas tarp to conceal their true identity to guests. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I don't know, Dennis. I wonder if your definition is a characteristic or a symptom. I illustrate my question with the following example: Characteristically, all giants are people who have abnormally vigorous body growth. Symptomatically, most giants eventually have heart problems. In the first case, I can reverse the sentence. In the second case I cannot. All people with abnormally vigorous body growth are giants. probably true. Most people who eventually have heart problems are giants. probably not true. I am not opposed to the definition, just unclear if it works. As for the "church name shell game" . . . <<<rolls eyes, sighs>>> pathetic, but not surprising. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I don't know when I am going to learn to key my posts into Word first before getting into the message to deeply and letting the devil take it into cyberspace. I have just wasted an hour on a post and lost it when I hit the enter key, it took me back to the topic listing and the back key was no help at all, it is gone and I am tired, so, I guess I will take that as my cue to get to the job of housecleaning, and get back to this later. I will end by saying that I really enjoyed all the discussions in this thread on cults and wanted to mention www.probe.org again for those who want to study any particular group of cults. Angie, I did want to add this for you from one site that was an apologetic for JWs, written by a former JW. This is what he mentioned briefly, I would further propose that one could always accept Jesus Christ by faith and then stay in a cultic church for some reason and retain his salvation so long as he keeps hold of the truth of salvation by faith in Christ alone, and the reason: (Perhaps a young person whose parents take him to a Kingdom Hall, or a wife who continues to attend services in a QUESTIONABLE denomination with an unsaved husband.) But remaining in a cultic denomination that has either a flawed or false salvation doctrine while teaching that all other denominations are illegitimate is always DANGEROUS. If at all possible one should FIND a church that teaches truth and leave one that teaches error. Have a great day everyone, it is gloomy and wet in Georgia and I need to get to my other chores. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I have been visiting www.truthorfables.com and found some really interesting things there. I was reading over why the editor thought SDA were a cult and he listed several things but I liked this description that he gave: There are Christian cults, there are non Christian cults, Devil worship, some cults are purely secular such as sports, some are UFO followers, some involved in criminal activity, and some are dedicated for good of society. A cult in itself is not necessarily evil, but Christians need to be alert as to what is being taught as truth and refuse to accept Biblical Contradictions. I have been so engrossed with my Bible studies at work that I haven't taken much time to post this week. God has shown me so much to write about in my web site, but without the computer access at work, I have to settle for taking down notes as God shows me something important about grace. Every page of the Pauline Epistles point to grace, grace, and more grace, amen. This is what we are supposed to be talking about and as Colleen pointed out to me, we will suffer persecution when we try to reach those among us who are merely putting on a form of godliness. Like I just told Mr. Sanders, editor of www.truthorfables.com, it is so much easier to talk to an ignorant barbarian about Jesus than it is to talk to a "religious" person who is filled up with arrogant pride. I never did get to add to my thread about pride and arrogance but maybe I will before too much longer. I really feel led though to work on my web site and continue to speak on grace. Good night for now, Janice |
