Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: Archive through March 25, 2003

Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 4:00 pm:

Hello Janice,

As I sit here to type, my body is contorting into some amazing positions! Oh, this life can have it's trials, can't it?

You said in part:

"My Bible says that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, gentleness, faith, etc...."

Exactly! and let us also remember them as we type our words. For you know yourself how 'words' can cut to the heart.

You know, I was thinking about your idea of starting a thread on those terms you have used above. Terms such as 'cult,' 'demonic,' 'cultist,' and 'satanic,' and perhaps you could start that thread. It probably will be a very interesting thread for all of us.

IN the meantime, remember that God is with you always and we are His witnesses to Glorify HIM. My prayers will continue in your behalf as you are my sister in Christ Jesus forever. Amen? <grin>.....oh that brings such a peace, does it not? Just think, soon we shall meet HIM Face to face!

Now that's what we've all been waiting for and again, I must say that I'm eagerly awaiting His soon return and I'm sure you are too my sister.

So, look up! For your redemption draws nigh. <smile>

Loving you always IN Christ Jesus.

your sister in Him,

Denise Gilmore

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 5:37 am:

So, while I'm still on this thought regarding the 'rapture,' I would like to offer to anyone interested in BOTH sides of this debate, a website that has a good deal of sound Biblical Teaching.

But allow me first to quote one paragraph.

"WHY IT MATTERS WHAT YOU BELIEVE

In contemporary western Christianity, post-tribbers are looked upon with pity and suspicion. Some think we have a "martyr complex." Others think we are just troublemakers, wanting to rock the boat. Post-tribulationism just doesn't seem to fit in with the prosperous lifestyles of contemporary western Christianity. The lack of real persecution and hardship has led many to assume that this is the normal Christian life. But, according to Scripture, persecution, tribulation, and hardship, is the real "normal" Christian experience. The comfort western Christians have enjoyed for the last few generations is an anomaly that will soon come to an end. The theological "comfort zones" we have constructed around this anomaly are about to come crashing down."

Here is the site:

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

I pray this blesses all who read.

In Christ Jesus.

Denise Gilmore

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 5:55 am:

Quoting myself from a post earlier:

"I tend to believe we will be here for the tribulation but am not holding a firm stance on it as dogma. To me, I'll just be glad to see Jesus Christ's Return! Now THAT will be a great day!! amen?"

In all honesty, I have to rescind the part about "not holding a firm stance on it as dogma." For I most definately hold a firm stance on the "post-tribulation" rapture well over and above the "pre-tribulation" rapture.

At the time I posted that, in my heart, I couldn't honestly mean it. Please forgive me for NOT being as bold as I should have been in my position regarding the "rapture."

The site above is precisely how I believe and it is what the Bible teaches. Also, it is what my own dad taught me as a young child and what I've always known in my heart.

It can also be documented by our early Church fathers as their position as well.

Now, I feel better having made my stand on this issue and having repented to God for my own cowardness in not "rocking the boat" on this forum.

Sincerely,

Denise Gilmore

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 6:01 am:

Quoting myself again from the same post (this paragraph was just before the one above that I've quoted from myself:

"Now, as to the topic at hand, which is the "rapture." I have to take Jesus's Words as they are written in Matthew. So, unless I'm reading that wrong, He says that after these things (meaning after all the events of the tribulation), we will see the coming of the Son of God."

This is how I remain to believe knowing I have NOT read Jesus Christ's Words wrong.

I remain your sister in Christ Jesus. Even if we agree to disagree on this.

Denise Gilmore

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 7:10 am:

And now finally, hopefully some of you will understand the REASON behind some of the new converts coming here, along with some others, to "ask questions." They, the new converts especially, are (or were) a bit fearful.

So, we go through the Bible and read God's Word for our Comfort and Joy. I might add, that more than a few are now rejoicing at the thought that we could perhaps be facing the tribulation soon. Or at least, this is what we are hoping. But fully realizing we cannot nor must not set dates. However, the signs around us are pretty convincing and I'm sure most of Christianity, including the secular world, agree with this.

Because they KNOW what comes AFTER that! Our Great and Mighty God, Jesus the Christ, our Saviour. Amen and Hallelu-YAH!

Infact, two, besides myself, are hoping to be among those killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Nuts you say? Perhaps so, in some peoples eyes. However, I can see no greater thing to give than my life itself. Jesus Christ gave His for me.

It is amazing to see the new attitudes in these folks. They have gone from being completely afraid (and shaking physically) at the name of God, to being afraid of the tribulation, to now wanting to give their very lives to God!

This has been a fascinating thing to behold. And they come here of their own choice. I do NOT scare them into it nor do I ask them to show up or study with me. Just as God has said in Scripture that His Word Will not come back void.

This truly is something and I'm the privileged one for being a witness to the Mighty Holy Spirit's moving in their hearts.

Do you know, these 'new converts' have more 'fruit' they are showing than I ever have?! Absolutely amazing.

Yes, I must say, God is Great and Mighty! His Ways are far beyond any of ours and His Ways bring such Blessings that all we can do is Rejoice and put on the Armour of God (Eph.6)

Dunamis indeed! More than I could have imagined.

Thank you Father in Heaven for our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ. Amen forever.

In Christ Jesus with the rest of you, plus my brothers and sisters here at home and abroad!

Let us all continue in the Faith once delivered to the Saints. Never ever Cease praying, remembering always to remain steadfast and sober minded.

Denise Gilmore

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:04 am:

Concerning glean the good from the bad. Some of the best times of learning for me by the Holy Spirit was when listening to someone who was deceived or watching a movie etc.

Usually when dealing with a religious person I do not try to win them over to the way I believe. Brothers and sisters in the Lord who are bent on the majority�s way of believing usually do so for security and acceptance. So I usually respect that for their sake and try not to shake them in the little truth that they do have. What I try to do is get them to just list to what I believe �on topics that they may have never considered before that way it is new to them and may interest them. I try to stay focused on the Kingdom of God. One of the problems that I have is when I have to list to someone else telling me their point of view on topics that I use to believe in or know very well as to what they believe. It just goes though one ear on our the other and all I hear is bla, bla, bla. �ha, ha�. It gets to the point if they do not want to considered revelation that they have never hear before but just what to rehearse well know points of view as to what they perceive truth to be I just have to leave it be and pray that some day them will be willing to just listen to what the Spirit is saying. Who knows if we are just willing to list to things that are new and never hear before what mysteries will be revealed. And if a person is in error how can we ever set them free if we do not fully understand where they are coming from.

There is a scripture I forget where but it says what those who listen to us are of the Spirit of truth. Those that do not listen to us are of the spirit of error

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:07 am:

Good Morning to you all,

I have just spent the better part of an hour on typing out a post and once again the devil flung it into cyberspace, so, I have decided that from now on I will be doing my post in Microsoft Word first and at least the computer will save it if the power goes off. I have found that it is a valuable waste of time to click the back and forth buttons on the web when I go to www.blueletterbible.com for editing and that is when I usually loose the post.

Here is one thing I had been commenting on, how some people had come to our forum and attacked us and accused us of doing the very thing that they are doing, saying we are �name calling� and I do want to start a thread up on what each of us consider a cult, and what we mean when we use the terms (not names) such as demons, demonic, devil, Satanic, etc. I think it is very important to keep foremost in our minds that God is NOT the author of confusion while also maintaining the truth that God says that Satan is the FATHER OF ALL LIES!

Notice this verse found in Matthew 18:20--For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Keep that verse in mind as I expound on it here: Although the forum is not a building and we do not assemble together at the same time to worship God, our hearts and minds are in �one accord� and we are all in continual thought and prayer for one another, so having said that, are we not a church?

Also, read the following verses from Ephesians 4 while I attempt to expound on them a little: Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

I think I will break this long post up by posting it in sections and hopefully it won't get as tiring to read it all.

Janice

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:08 am:

Continued,

I have really learned a lot from all my visits here, so, that is why I believe that this forum was developed for more than whining about past wrongs done at the hands of the SDAs. Yes, we have the freedom to whine, if you consider it whining, but I prefer to think of us as answering the call of God by reaching out to one another to bear one another�s burdens, to lift up in prayer, to edify, to study, to correct, and enlighten and if it sounds like whining to some, so be it, right?

I admit to being hurt on several different occasions, but I know that I don�t have the corner on misery for sure, right Denise? I can always find someone in very worse shape than I am, whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual pain, right? I have really met, so to speak, and felt a kindred spirit with many of you here and this is always a place of refuge and comfort, but only if I �enter� the forum for the purpose of fellowship, Again, let me apologize from the bottom of my heart if I have ever offended anyone with my words. I know I am a born again child of God but like brother Paul, I am still human and will always do things that I don�t want to do and will always find a way to put off doing things that I know I should. I, much too often, give place to the devil and often allow him to use words of good intention from fellow brethren as a weapon to wound my vanity and pride. Maybe I shouldn�t give all of the credit to Satan though. God does let Satan get stupid and uses him to accomplish his purpose in our lives, amen? Just like when the devil thought he was ridding his world of Christ�s presence by having him crucified, the devil really thought that he was in control of that situation, didn�t he? Had he known that he was spreading instead of containing, I am sure that this never would have happened but it all a part of the wonderful plan of salvation and rather than try to bisect the word, I choose to accept it in child-like faith. I don�t know why we have to suffer at the hands of our own family members but will add this scripture and say, it is ALL part of the plan, what does it say in Matthew 10: 34-36? Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. I know that the Olde English can sound kind of confusing here because it sounds like Christ is saying that his purpose in life was to cause strife and arguing, but that was not what he was saying. He was warning us that because of what he did for us, there are going to be those that just simply will not accept the fact that the Jews were given a covenant and commandments that simply did not serve as a sufficient salvation plan, the law was given to reveal the sins of the people and was never a means of salvation. God made promises to his people, the Jews, and promised blessings, NOT SALVATION, to them if they obeyed. Now that Jesus has come, because of the jealousy and rejection of the Jews, the fact that Jesus and Jesus alone is all we need, will just not be accepted by many and there will be those that would choose to persecute those of us �simple-minded� enough to accept our salvation rather than accept the fact that we are reaching out to them in love to try to warn them before it is everlasting to late.

Janice

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:17 am:

Continued,

For those who watch our posts and then take our e-mail addresses that we freely give here as a means to privately gender strife since they find themselves no longer welcome here, is just one way that the devil can turn good intentions into strife and adds fuel to the fire of our tongues. When someone considers us vile and wicked and call us all �name-callers� when we are merely trying to point out the devices of the devil only proves that they are still blinded by Satan. I also feel that these same people are blinded to the fact that they are doing the very same thing when they place a denominational label on me.

When someone writes a personal email to me and requests some information that I have offered here in the forum and then turns around to say that �everything� that �I� have given to them to edify and enlighten them is no more than �Baptist theology�, then isn�t that presumptuous and also a severe form of �name-calling�. I also believe that it is very presumptuous and very �close-minded� when they allow the devil to label me and assume that I am not quoting God�s word and trying to expound on it.

Janice

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:23 am:

Continued,

To break fellowship because we choose not to pick up on the hatred of those who have �crept into our midst� is just another great eye opener to help warn me that Satan is still parading around in our midst as the deceptive �angel of light� that he truly is. I do feel sorry for them though and pray that they truly find peace in their hardened hearts to allow God free access before he has to break their hearts.

I conclude thought that sometimes this is the only way that God can truly reach some of us, and although it is painful to have our hearts broken, we need to find it in our hearts to allow the love of God to leak through the cracks. This is the only way that we will ever heal. Paul says that we are in a race of sorts and although we can�t all be first place, we all will receive a prize according to our works that we do for the Lord and I know that I will take the crowns that I receive for my good works and lay them at Jesus� feet while the bad works, harsh words, etc., even though revealed, will finally be burned off and done away with. I just pray that this is the same case for my sisters that have hardened their hearts towards me and used such harsh words against me. I pray that they are saved and if they are, then I know that God is working on them, I know too that my entire family is very stubborn, I guess it is a genetic strait of our �earthly� father the devil, what do you all think of that idea?

I want my friends and family with me in glory, I love them and will always pray that they will hear God calling them to repentance for what they have said and done to me while thinking they were doing God�s service, amen?

cont'd

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:07 am:

cont'd

In the post that got lost this morning, I was quoting this verse and elaborating on it a bit when I went to paste the actual text and lost the whole thing. Here it is from Jude 1:4--For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I wanted to comment about the fact that the word �crept� is in the past tense and that means that at the time of the original writing of the text, he was warning the church that Satan had already given his soldiers (demons) their orders for the war at hand. These soldier demons had been ordained �of old� meaning that Satan had already planned his strategy for his attack on God�s children and had probably been waiting throughout the centuries waiting on the time to come in with their lies and deceit. I think I will expound here on this verse of scripture found in 1Cr 2:14--But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I just wanted to point out that the word �natural� can be translated to mean either �unsaved� or �worldly� and ignorant of the work of God. I want to say that Satan, although once an angelic host, was never a �saved� creature and since he is a governing figure in the �world� and has no discernment into the things of God, I want to assert here that he �innocently� and �without knowledge� played an active part in bringing about our salvation.

Quick, run that SDA teaching off that you have learned, my sister has sent me SDA books to say that Christ�s scourging had nothing to do with bringing about our salvation and we are FOOLS to believe that it did. The book also told that if we say it did then we give credit to the devil and should be ashamed. Now, bear in mind that my sister has sent me many SDA artist sketches of Christ and the sketch �By His Stripes� is one and has this scripture at the bottom of the sketch: But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

I ask this question: Who are we then to replace these words of God with nonsense that some SDA nut though he was expounding on in these texts? I think this is almost blasphemy for a man to write a book that states that if we believe that we are healed by his stripes, bruised and wounded because of our sins, that WE are a bunch of fools. He ascertains that those that choose to believe these truths found in God's word are being misled by the devil, NOT, maybe he should take a look into a mirror to see who has been deceived, right? God help him and God help anyone (my sister) who would rather throw the book out because I corrected his statements with the word of God written in red ink on the pages where the devil wrote it than to pray for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit that gives to ALL men liberally when they truly seek wisdom, right?

But in the end, God is a rewarder of those that deligiently seek him and that is what I am doing on a daily basis, be it here with fellow believers or taken from the word of God himself as given by the Holy Spirit that dwells in my heart.

I hope it is not considered name-calling when I quote the scripture that refers to a �double-minded� man. I use that term quiet often in my post and I am using it to make my point here. Listen to it again: But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways. James 1: 6, 7, 8. To expound on this text, I would say that I think that it means that we simply cannot have it �both ways� in any of our trains of thought concerning spiritual things. We cannot believe that we are saved by faith and have to keep the law because it is TWO trains of thought. The word double means twice or two, right? In any subject that we study, we should always keep in mind this saying of God from Matthew 6:24--No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God AND mammon. Again we have the word TWO and what does it say? We should be like Peter and Paul and say, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I will try to end this long post by saying this: The SDAs have let down their guard and not studied the word with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and have, therefore, been led astray from the true gospel according to Christ as expounded on in the wonderful book of Acts, and in contrast to the teaching of Christ found in John 12:32--And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. The SDAs have taken EGW and her writings as inspirational without seeking Godly wisdom through his Holy Word and have raised her up instead of Jesus. They haven't even stopped to do his �commandment� of trying her spirit to see if she was indeed sent by God and not a �false� angel of light like Satan and his demons. They have taken Christ down from his exalted position as savior and replaced it with the �Sabbath� savior instead by stating that it is the Sabbath observance that seals us instead of the Lord and savior Jesus Christ. They are kings at this "double-mindedness" when they can also claim that they do trust Jesus as their savior on the one hand but must keep LAWS on the other hand. Why not simply stop and pray and ask God to place his laws into our hearts? They have persecuted ALL of God�s children that have not fallen for the lies of Satan taught through EGW and have had their consciousness �seared as with a hot iron� to the degree that they can get in a loved one�s face and spit venom forth instead of the true love that Christ served as a living example for us all to give. I feel love in this forum and also, a deep need to be accepted as well as being understood.

People, God help us if we don�t hold each other up. God help us when we creep in amongst the saints and cause discord with our hateful words of accusation. God help us when we can�t see the light of the gospel that our saved loved ones are trying to give to us to help us in our troubled walk of life. God forgive those who choose to forsake the gathering of those of us who say we are Christian but won�t even speak to flesh and blood brothers and sisters who are trying to reach us with the true gospel, let alone speak to those of the "household of God".

I personally thank God for all of you formers who are so desperately trying to impart wisdom and SOUND doctrine, the doctrine of Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior. How dare anyone say that they love God and hate their brother when God plainly calls you a LIAR when you do such things!

My heart breaks when I have days or weeks like I have just been through where I have been so throughly misunderstood, but once again, let's turn our eyes on Jesus and look at what he went through in purchasing us old wicked sinners with his pure and precious blood.

Try reading about the parable of the wedding feast and if God is in your heart, you will see that when the master came and saw that the guest wasn't wearing a wedding garment that had been "provided" for and was instead contented with his own clothing, your heart will see that Christ's blood is the wedding garment that was provided for and the one that was wearing his own clothing (his own righteousness) is the one that "thinks" what they come to the supper with is "good enough" but in the end, they were taken and cast out into "outer darkness" just like those who say Lord, Lord didn't we... in YOUR name and the Lord will say, "DEPART" from me because I NEVER knew you, not to say that I knew you once but you lost it, but rather "I NEVER knew you" so if you read it and can't see it, guess what? You never got it in the first place, AMEN AND AMEN which can translate into a question or an agreement meaning yes we agree or can we agree. I agree and hope that we all can agree on what I have tried to get across today with this long post.

Maybe it helped that I broke it down because I do want to be heard, not my words or my thoughts, but I want to be a chosen vessel that is yielding to God and allowing him to use me to expound on his word, and God forgive us all when we keep harping on our denominational labels. If you who are reading this post is indeed saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God as I myself know that I am then brother/sister that is what this is all about, we are of the household of God and shouldn't think more highly of ourselves than what we aught,amen?

It is time for a break from this screen, so, have a great day in the Lord. I look forward to hearing from you in the forum and send me something in an email if you want.

God Bless,
Janice

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 12:04 pm:

Brad, What you said did hit home with what I have experienced through the years with trying to expound on the truth with my SDA sister and also with many Christians who just don't see it in what they deem as "my way" and that is where the frustration comes in.

How can I get anyone to see Holy scripture that is showered all through any given conversation that I try to speak up on? The answer is as you say Brad, we cannot do it in our own power. It isn't a Biblical term but true no less, and the truth is "we can lead a horse to water, but we can't make it drink" and I am sorry if someone chooses to pull out all that out of context and conclude that I am calling them a horse, but that is often how Satan operates, is it not?

That is what I have been experiencing for years, and is known as the human condition that we all call PRIDE. We don't just do it in our conversations with one another either. How many times in my life have I sat and heard some very sincere and "well-meaning" preacher stand in the pulpit and sound good to my ears only to find in the scriptures that the verse was taken out of context or worse yet, just plain out misrepresented?

My case in point: years ago I went to revival at my local church and heard a man preach one night, boy, was he on fire for the Lord as he paced back and forth while quoting scripture and with the added support of the congregation with all the amens being shouted, it was like fuel to the fire, but then it happened Brad,the Holy Spirit that led me to a Bible story once that I studied thoroughly, gently spoke to me and reminded me of that story and as I sat there listening to that "sincere" preacher twist that very same story all around and turned it into a lie. I was truly grieved in my spirit to the point that I left without giving him the right hand of fellowship, but later realized that the right thing to have done would have been to "enlighten" him on the truth that he had managed to twist. Now whether or not this man deliberately "changed" the story that I had learned or if he was even trying to twist the facts to prove a point is beyond my questioning, but I will tell you what it meant to me Brad, it proves that we can get the facts when we call on God to show us.

The story was about how Daniel was thrown into the lion's den for defying a court order that demanded that it was unlawful to pray. Daniel opened his windows and knelt to pray three times a day in open defiance to the court order and was placed into the lion's den as a result of this defiance. Now as to whether or not the difference in the way the story was told having any effect on the message though, I don't remember because I was grieved to the point that I didn't even want to listen to him after that, but the fact is that the lesson that I learned is this: I am a child of God and have been given a comforter and he is there to lead me into spiritual truth as long as I pray for his guidance. He is there in my heart and will never fail me while God sends me all I need in this world. That was the lesson learned from that sermon that night which proves Romans 8:28, that we know ALL things have a way of working themselves out in a way that will help us in the end, so, I would rather be sensitive to him than to turn a deaf ear and get a whipping from my daddy, amen!!!

The story of Daniel was related that night in such a way as to present the king as one "mocking" Daniel as he stood over the den and much like some of these posts go, it is all in the manner in which it is perceived and not always in the very manner that it is given, anyway, this preacher placed his hands on his hips while placing a smirky grin on his face and said in a mocking tone "Well Daniel, was God ABLE to save you down there in the lion's den? He was standing over the edge of the platform while quoting the scripture text of the incident and loudly making the statement while laughing at the same time. The preacher went on into the sermon and related all about the "mean" old king that was such a hypocrite for having his own guards executed for having placed Daniel in the den after the kind realized that Daniel was a man of God. Now I will relate how it REALLY happened in a more accurate way. When studied out in its entireness, you will discover that Daniel was in a high legal position that provoked other law officers into jealously that led to their trying to come up with a way to destroy Daniel. By tricking the king into signing a law that would call for the execution of anyone found praying to anyone other than the pagan Gods of the region of the day, they thought they would eventually have a chance for promotion to Daniel's high position of authority. I believe their intentions were to get in the postion to embezzle the king's riches because Daniel was in charge of book keeping in a sense.

Daniel chose to ignore the order and refused to be moved from his daily habit of prayer which is where the slogan "dare to be a Daniel" originated. Anyway, these legal minds knew that they had the king legally bound to carry out the law that he had put into effect by signing it and placing his sign on it and the law wasn't that easy to change. When the king realized that he had "unknowingly" signed the death warrant of his "friend" Daniel, he was so deeply grieved over the situation that he wouldn't eat his supper that night nor allow his musicians to play him any "soothing" music that would lull him to sleep, and he laid on the floor of his chambers all night in an agonizing and fitful half-sleep. He lamented over the situation and at the break of day, he ran to the lion's den while he frantically called out "Daniel, Daniel, was YOUR God able to save you from the mouths of the lions" and Daniel simply said something like "don't fear oh king, I am still here with no harm done." The king was so greatly relieved to hear the voice of his friend and it also showed him such faith in the living God that the king rescued his friend from the den and, in turn, had those wicked men who tricked him thrown in the den in Daniel's place.

What it comes down to is the fact that this is one classic example of how someone can take something straight from the word of God and twist it is such a way that it makes for a convincing story and that is why I feel that God tells us to "study" and be a workman so that we will not have people like the EG Whites and Joseph Smiths of this world trick us into believing a lie.

I will end by relating another story about a woman who always cut off both ends of her ham before placing it in the roasting pan every year while preparing her holiday dinners. The husband asked her why she did it and she replied "because that is the way my mother taught me" and he later asked the mother the same question and again received the same answer. The man finally went to the great grandmother and remarked that he had observed his wife and mother-in-law both cutting their hams off on both ends before placing it in the roasting pan and explained that they had said that this was the way that they were taught. Listen to what the great grandmother simply said. "Son, I just can't speak for my daughter or grand daughter but they did in fact see me cutting my ham off at both ends for years and years, but what they failed to see was the fact that my pan was too small."

How often are we guilty of simply adopting old habits that down through the course of time, become traditions or maybe just some bad habits and eventually come to the place in time that we don't even know WHY we do these things anymore. I think we could say this of the life-long SDA members that taught their children that taught their children that taught their children and when the Holy Spirit got left out of the equation, then what was left but a big pile of confusion, and where love and devotional once thrived, an arrogance and pride now stand in its place?

And when people, like us here, who have loved ones who prefer to cling to a lie while forsaking family and even the Holy Spirit himself and we fall under constant attack and criticism. I ask where is God in any of this? Why do we suppose that we find ourselves in a continual state of frustration and confusion? If we are not careful, we will find ourselves being too sentimental towards family and misunderstanding what the term "Love" really is all about. Do we make God happy when we choose to show our love by not "hurting someone's feelings" or should we make God happy when we love enough to be honest and go after those lost deceived souls still held in the grips of Satan's lie? To smile like it is all okay to worship as you please just so long as you can say "I love God" while grieving the spirt by denying Christ and placing him and his commandments so far into the backs of our minds that we just sit by and watch our loved ones bust hell wide open because we didn't want to hurt their "little feelings" and I wonder just how compassionate that is going to look to those at the great white throne judgment when they all look at us and say "Why didn't you try to tell me", and I question why there are so many out there that prefer to be biting the hand that is trying to feed them with the "sincere milk of the word so that they can grow" when all we are trying to do is expose Satan and his demons for the lies and the deceptions taught in these various "cults" and for those of us who have really asked God to show us, he has opened our eyes to the truth that "Jesus+anyone or anything" is the true definition of the cult, and I for one will continue to shout it from the roof tops to all who will give an ear to me, amen. Just what ever happened to Ezekiel 33 is what I would like to know?

I will say to Bob that it is admirable that you love your mother, but gee Bob I love my family too, but love them enough to try to rip those blinders off, and the fact that those blinders might be attached with the super flue of Satan doesn't stop me from seeing past their temporary pain in order to give them eternal peace. Why do I feel a need to apologize to you for my efforts? I don't apologize, broken hearts are painful, but when God says do it, then I have my marching orders, amen. I would never try to convince anyone to stop being a witness to their lost loved ones, but sometimes it becomes necessary to take off the kid gloves and get down to business. This is war and if we shirked our God given duties, where is love in that?

Look at it like this, is it love to just sit back and let them go on living their lies without trying to reach them with the truth before it is too late? Is it really wrong in us here to be trying to comfort one another with the glorified promise from the word of God that he will come and take us out of all this horrible mess? Revelation 3:10 gives us this comforting thought, and I believe that the Holy Spirit would have me believe that this is the rapture and since I claim Baptist affiliation, go ahead and call it Baptist theology, I don't really care what you call me as long as you get the truth of the rapture and hear is the text that I mention: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. It is certainly not one little line that I stand on for that theology either, and if you weren't so hard-headed, hard-hearted, whatever, maybe the Holy Spirit just could let you see it too Bob, as you can see from the forum, I am not the only one claiming that blessed hope, and I know for a fact that not all these beliefs are held by just Baptists either.

Is the Holy Spirit really telling you that we are all fools who choose to accept the blessed promise of the rapture just because that word doesn't happen to be mentioned in the Bible? Isn't that being just a tab "narrow-minded"? The word trinity isn't there in the written word either, but the word was written by the trinity, so, why can't people just 'shut up' and quit trying to rob us of that hope and truth that we, the church, can count ourselves worthy that we will not be in the hour of the great tribulation.

Doesn't God say that a man who has no hope is miserable? Doesn't he tell us to "comfort one another with these words" and doesn't he say in his word that "these things" are written so that you may KNOW? Why would anyone not want to know the truth?

We are all going home soon and very soon and that is what it is all about. We are going out and compelling them to come in to the wedding supper, we are offering them the wedding garment of Jesus Christ because we know that this is what God Almighty, the master, requires of us. He gave ALL power and authority of the "church" over to his son who gave his blood as a ransom for all who believe in his holy name and gives us the reassurance that no one will ever pluck us out of his hand. I do get so tired of those that constantly try, and the fact is that when you do try it, you are just like Paul when his name was Saul and he kicked against the pricks. Maybe the archaic word pricks sounds dumb to some of you who are so against Olde English but consider what happens when you go about kicking a thorn bush or go wading through a briar patch? This is exactly what it means. Why are we fighting and kicking at thorns when we eventually will get one caught under our toe nail folks, a very painful thought if we would reflect on it for a minute, right?

Think about it the next time you want to fight me and call me names Bob, how sad, I thought you were my friend!!!

Janice

Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:10 pm:

Janice, Who is Bob?

Brad

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 12:08 am:

Brad,

Please don't ask that of Janice ::::::said with a plea in my voice:::::

Sincerely,

Denise Gilmore

P.S. Janice, if we end up in a discussion regarding a certain person that is no longer here, I'll have to retreat from this thread. I cannot be a part of that sort of thing any more.

Thanks, and Peace to your household,

Denise, your sister in Christ reminding you of your written words.

Colleentinker (Colleentinker)

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 1:28 am:

This forum is a place for us to discuss our questions and concerns as we discover our identity in Christ--especially as we discover who we are after leaving Adventism (or if we're dealing with someone who is or has been Adventist). It's not a place to discuss indiviuals.

I ask us all to leave our comments about individuals behind as we participate in the discussions!

I praise God that he is our defense and our identity. We don't need to fear what any man or woman can do to us!

Colleen

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 9:23 am:

Colleen, You are right Jesus is our identity. Jesus ask the Father to make us one with Him just like He is with the Father. Now that we believe in Christ we share our identity with Him and we can now said if like when Jesus said to philip. When you see me you see the Father. We can say to other who ask where is Jesus When you look at me or other believers you see Jesus "indwelling in us". All we have to do is believe in His word, confess Him as Lord and believe God raised Christ from the dead.

Our salvation cannot be taken away because we have different views concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. But when mysteries are revealed and we walk in faith concerning them we can have whatever we ask and hope for. God will not withold any good thing including living with Him.

Sabra (Sabra)

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 1:26 pm:

Furthermore,

We don't have to agree on everything! It's OK to have your own views and interpretations as long as Jesus remains the primary focus. We can learn a lot more by considering others views rather than trying to persuade them to our own.

None of us would be former adventists if we never learned anything from anyone else.

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 2:34 pm:

Hi everyone, I just got in from visiting over in Alabama with my mother-in-law, she has had the other skin cancer taken off of her nose and this was about the fourth skin graft. She is doing okay but doesn't want to get out where anyone can see her with the big gauge bandage taped on her nose. I finally got to take Kevin out for his birthday supper at Red Lobster last night and my grandson, who is five, just simply could not be still, he walked around our table ten times or more and if you try to manage him, he starts clinching his fists and tightening his neck muscles up, he even stabbed his dad with a fork, and if we try to say anything to him, he resorts to biting himself and/or banging his head against a wall and says that no one loves him, Lisa told him that he shouldn't be running in a public parking lot the other day and he told her that he wished that a car would run over him. Please, pray for my grandson as this sounds like something that is much more serious than mere childish stubborness. They have asked their preacher if he knew of someone that could lay hands on him but their preacher didn't have a clue as how to handle the situation. I know that our church elders and deacons have annointed and laid hands on people before and they later found out that their tumor was gone or that their heart test didn't show anything wrong, etc. I know that prayer works, so, please pray for their situation.

As for Bob, I don't want to talk about him anymore either. I was venting in the forum because I knew that he stills visited us here. He would send me cuts from the posts along with his comments that he would say that he would post if he were still allowed to do so. I felt sorry for him because I felt that he needed to vent some of his anger as well, so, I encouraged him to write to me and answered as much of his mail as I had time to. I was feeling good about our correspondence and had sent him some research concerning the rapture, and he replied that he was disappointed with me and didn't want anything else to do with me unless I was doing "scriptural" research and stuck with the Bible.

I have gone back over all my studies of the rapture and had really been enjoying our posts on that thread and like we say here, we all have opinions, but I really didn't see where the accusations that I was not being scriptural were substantiated.

Of course the Holy Spirit gives different people different things and even different things to the same people from the same subject manner but from a different angle for other reasons. I hope you understood what I just said here. What I mean to say is that I have been studying last-day events since the mid seventies, and I still get new insights every time I read. It is also true that many times I have had a particular question in my mind or maybe something was troubling me and then I would either read a devotional, turn on my radio, come to the forum, or go to a Sunday School class and right there would be the very thing that I needed to answer my questions or solve a problem.

I do believe though that in order to continue to gain insight, we must always leave ourselves open for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we are sensitive to him then he will lighten our paths.

I need to be going to choir practice now, so, I will probably be tomorrow evening getting back, and no, I won't be wasting my time talking about Bob since I feel that I have said my peace concerning the matter. He is obviously hurting and has taken it too far with his anger and vengeance by trying to get even with us. I will be praying for him as you all pray for me that I won't allow this personal attack of his to make me bitter or hinder my testimony any further.

Janice

Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 7:45 pm:

Janice sounds good you are back on track. As far as people share from different points of view on a topic I call that circular reasoning. That when both people agree and do not know that they agree and still try to prove their point but from different angles. As for Bob I pray for him is sounds like that the man of sin is manifesting himself through him and not Jesus Christ. I'll pray that the Holy Spirit will remove that man of sin out of the way.