| Author | Message | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Janice, I have a Mother similar to your Father. She is still alive at 83. She is as devoted an SDA as you could imagine. I differ radically from her positions such as the SDA position that the Sabbath/Sunday issue will be the test of the end times. She looks at the Middle East crisis and continually worns me the end is near. I told her, if it is the worship day that will be the test, this can't be the end because we are there in the Middle East to protect, to a certain extent, the nation of Israel which keeps the Sabbath better than anybody on earth. She will then say, if the Bible and EGW are not true then they are liars. The thing I realized was that she probably would not change her view. However, she was still my Mother. My father died when I was 12 and she raised 7 of us without him. I was a 10lb 8oz child at birth as the number 3 child. My birth I believe "rearranged" her a little. I own her the respect just because of that act of bringing me into the world. However, she also has a Christian duty not to "provoke her children to wrath". I do not believe I need to change my positions because of her Mother status. If anything, when out to dinner, to prevent her from "stumbling" I should not order the "lobster bisque" for her sake and mine, with regard to the lecture I know I will get for doing this in front of her. Hope this helps a little with approaches to family. In His Grace Bob_2 | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
Colleen, Thanks for your insights into the SDA view of the nature of Christ. That was very useful, and way off the orthodox position when explained like that. I have discussed many of the Adventist distinctives with my friend, and he has gradually dropped them, but we never talked about this one. It's not usually in the books, though it certainly is significant. Janice, Thanks for your encouragement. It sure is frustrating, when people don't want to listen. I also call her "the prophetess" and "Auntie Ellie" (Hungarian version), but only to non-SDAs :-) Actually, I remember a Mormon once said he was repremanded for referring to Joseph Smith like this: "I don't believe that, just because some guy said it." Bob, Thanks for your suggestions. I mentioned I only told you all the very short version. The situation was rather complicated. My friend asked me to join his eldership team, so I moved church, then he told me he was leaning towards SDA doctrine, but would still not explain it properly. I was then forced to look into it myself. So we ended up working together in a non-SDA church, with him wanting to teach SDA doctrines, meanwhile most of the church had no real idea about what was going on. I never stopped being his friend, and I had no intention of doing so, but we could not ignore the differences, as we had to decide what to teach in church! It was rather awkward for a while. However, I also realise, that as we agreed to pray and study together, the Holy Spirit led us step by step through the process. God bless you all, Doc | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Your point about how we know our Biblical interpretation is right or wrong, Bob, is good. In fact, that was the very issue that became the frightening and, it felt, dangerous focus of my life as I began to see that I couldn't "buy" EGW anymore. Every single thing I had believed eventually came up for review, and almost everything has undergone--and, in some ways, is still undergoing--transformation. I do not believe any of us can read the Bible and come up with with total, absolute truth. I also believe that there are many issues about which the Bible is not definitive. I'm also convinced that perhaps the reason so many of these issues are not definitive is that God wants us to know HIM, depend on HIM, and not on the facts and doctrines we believe. He wants our hearts, not only our heads. Our heads can debate and doubt and interpret. Our hearts either love him and are known by him, or they're not. Once we love him and know him, however, he takes responsibility for what we understand and believe. His Spirit, the true seal of God(!), teaches us. The way I have come to believe what I believe now was not by studying with a new church or by accepting the writings or teaching of another person. My husband and I literally spent several years asking God to help us read the Bible without any presuppositions clouding our understanding. God also provided some non-SDA Christians who read through the New Testament with us for a couple of years. In many ways we disagreed with them (and still do), but they also questioned us when we "interpreted" texts in ways that sounded strange to them. Their questions led us to study the Bible more closely, more inductively, and we began to see from inductive stuidy alone that many of our beliefs and understandings were warped. Here's the part that I can't prove to another human being, but it is as real as breathing: the Holy Spirit confirms Biblical truth in one's spirit/mind/heart/soul when one is seeking truth and submitting to God, being willing to give up whatever one has believed for the sake of knowing what the Bible really says. God truly reveals himself to us, and he becomes real and present, not merely an objective "truth". The Bible literally comes alive. The Holy Spirit that fills us when we accept Jesus and let go of everything we are and have in order to know and follow him is the same Holy Spirit that inspired the Bible. The Spirit in us resonates with the Spirit's revelations in the Bible, and the Biblicval passages no longer seem like "theology" or philosophies and teachings with which we have to wrestle; they begin to be clear and to fit together seamlessly. I have not found a church/denomination whose doctrines and interpretations I would necessarily agree with 100%. But I have met individual Christ-followers whose experiences with Jesus are alive and personal, whose commitments to the word of God and to living surrendered to him motivate their lives, and I find that my understanding of scripture harmonizes completely with theirs. These individuals may belong to widely diverse churches. The unifying factor is the Holy Spirit; He does not teach conflicting views of salvation. That being said, there are debateable issues, i.e. prophecy and it's specific fulfillment, exactly how predestination and free will fit together (because, paradoxically, both are taught in the Bible and is some way we can't completely see in this 3D world, they must both be true), charismatic manifestations, etc. about which completley committed Christ-followers will differ. They will not differ, though, on salvation issues. Jesus is All. Salvation was completed at Calvary, and eternal life for humans guaranteed at the resurrection. The nature of Christ, the reality of the Trinity--these issues, while not being completely understood, are accepted and agreed upon by Christ-followers who take the Bible seriously. I could never have said these things so "dogmatically" before I knew Jesus. But He truly does reveal himself, one step at a time, as we truly seek him and seek truth. In short, I guess I have to summarize by saying that ultimately, there is a subjective element to "proving" how I know what the Bible says. But my experience has been confirmed by thousands of Christ-followers throughout the past 2,000 years, and while the debatables remain debatable, there is a unity and a certainty of Jesus and our place in his life and in the universe that is confirmed among believers. Denominations are not places of "truth". Jesus is. Where I worship has more to do with where I find Jesus being upheld and the Bible taught inductively than it has to do with doctrinal prescriptions. And I, too, am pretty gun-shy of doctrinal prescriptions! Praising Jesus for being faithful to us and for revealing himself, Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
One more thing--I do believe that Jesus had to be human to be our sacrifice. Man sinned, man had to die. The temptations of Jesus are significant because He now completely understands and epathizes and relates to everything we go through. His sinlessness as a human was not merely because he didn't succumb to temptation. His sinlessness was the result of being born with a living spirit connected to God. That living spirit is what made is possible for him to resist temptation. Adam also had a living spirit, and while both he and Jesus could choose whether or not to sin, Adam chose to but Jesus did not. The indwelling presence of God made is possible for thedm NOT to choose disobedience. Every other human, however, has no choice about sin. We are born spiritually dead, and we are born sinners. We have no power to choose righteousness. Only when we realize that do we really reach "bottom", so to speak, and realize that without a Savior we have no hope of righteousness. When we accept Jesus, God then considers us righteous. It's not about our actions; it about our belief. The indwelling Holy Spirit now can make us increasingly aware of sins and weaknesses in our lives, and the same Spirit gives us the power to obey Jesus. Yes, Jesus' humanity was absolutely essential, but not because he's our example so much as because he's qualified to be our Savior. He had to be a spiritually alive human, a "second Adam", in order to be our perfect sacrifice. He had to be a human who had never been disconnected from God and thereby tainted with sin. That was physically impossible for the human race after Adam sinned. That's the miracle of his incarnation. He was human, yet he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is a singularity. He eternally adopted a human body while remaining the eternal God. He eternally shares genetic brotherhood with us while also being our eternal Creator and Savior. Jesus' sinlessness went much deeper than his genetic makeup. His Spirit was alive! And He lives now! Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Colleen, Please don't ban me from the forum for this joke!!! A man died and went to heaven and St. Peter was showing him around in the heavenly mansion, going from one room to another and showing him where all he was allowed to go. They stopped by several rooms where the doors were shut, and he was given permission to go anywhere else but he was told not to open these doors at all. After passing by a door that said J.W.s and one that said L.D.S.s and one said S.D.A.s, he could not keep silence anymore and asked why he couldn't open the doors. Well, you have probably guessed why by now, the people behind those doors believe that they are the ONLY ones there!!! Forgive me but I hope that I made you smile at that one. If that was bad, I claim senility. Janice | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Janice, I enjoyed that joke immensely. Did you know that the Presbyterians had been referred to as the Frozen Chosen because of their view on predestination and election. Maybe we should include PCA in the group. Bob_2 | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Bob, I think you would enjoy reading CHOSEN BY GOD by Dr. R. C. Sproul. He deals at length with issues like free will, foreknowledge and predestination, preservation, perseverance, election, rebirth and faith, fatalism, sovereignty, unpardonable sin, preceptive will, Arminianism, Calvinism, et cetera. Here is an excerpt from Dr. Sproul's book: "God does not take delight in the death of the wicked. There is a sense in which the punishment of the wicked does not bring joy to God. He chooses to do it because it is good to punish evil. He delights in the righteousness of his judgment but is "sad" that such righteous judgment must be carried out. It is something like a judge sitting on a bench and sentencing his own son to prison." (page 196) This 213-page book has been a great blessing to me. The chapter titled, "How can we know we are saved?" is well-written and biblical. Oh yes, I just bought a new book today titled JESUS FREAKS (Volume II) by the Voice of the Martyrs organization. Books are like friends, we can't have too many good ones. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, I attended a conference at the PCA church I attend put on by RC Sproul. I actual got an autographed copy of another of his books, "Grace Unknown, The Heart of Reformed Theology". I think we can improve our understanding of the Bible from many sources, Sproul included. However, if we as formers, are going to beat up on the SDAs then Sproul and the PCAs and others must also stand the scrutiny. On page 118 of "Grace Unknown" he uses and acronym which I find as bad as anything I saw in the SDA church. The acronym is: T Total Depravity U Unconditional election L Limited atonement I Irresistable grace P Perserverence of the saints In case you, like me didn't recognize this as the Five Points of Calvin, that's what it is. In summary as I understand these points, T - The Christian must believe he is totally depraved to appreciate his salvation and acknowledge that he is deserving of everlasting, conscious (without end)eternal hell. U - Unconditional election means God new you would be one of the elect before the foundations of the earth. You receive a receptor for God's call and the guy next to you did not based on God's mercy and desire. The point being that Man cannot question what God will do since we are his creators. L - Limited Atonement is that only enough blood was shed for those who have these receptors. The evil man that is not elect wouldn't be able to change and accept salvation because he was not ordained to be saved, after all God can destroy who he wills, he can even create some to be destroyed for his glory. I - Irristable Grace is the reason for the receptor. When God calls you, you can not refuse him since all God's purposes will be realized. I think a verse in Isaiah is quoted. This is taken further to say that the sinner does not choose God but God seek the sinner. When he finds him and calls, the one with the receptor response because he can do no other. The one without the receptor does not repond because he does not have the receptor. P - Perseverance of the saints, which as I understand means the chosen persevere only because of the gracious work of God on the saint's behalf. Dennis, before I extol RC Sproul, I would be interested in you thoughts on the five points of Calvin. Bob_2 | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Coleen, Thank you so much for that post and especially the head and heart since I just in the last weeks came to that conclusion and wrote it someplace, I don't know if it was here or in my many other writings.Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. I sent this in a card to my grandchildren at valentines day. I have come upon a statement from my son-in-law earlier and now again from someone in the SDA who is close to someone I am counseling to be sure she is not deceieved This is the statement: God does not force himself on us. When this comes after a question of uncertaintity about SDA it appears they are saying we are trying then to force them to believe something different. A few questions on that statement: 1. If we are trying to make them change why is that any different than the person who converted them to SDA? 2. While I also believe that God does not force us and by that I mean He does not make us do;,since if He did we would be puppets, what would you describe what He did to Jonah and also to Paul just to name a few? Was it force or love? 3. Are we not instructed to go and teach: Gal. 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 1 Thessalonians 5 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 1 Timothy 4 6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. I think that is all for now. I have to prepare a defense for this other situation I spoke of earlier. It isn't real heavy but it never is in the beginning until you start questioning some of the doctrines and then because they get defensive we in turn become very infatic about what the scripture does in fact say and thus we are the ones out of line. I would like to close with this analogy: If your child came to you and said 2+2=5 1.would you just hope that he learned it right or 2. would you do every thing in your power to make him understand? Which one would be love? Which one would be force? Looking to Him for "my" answers and listening to your expressions concerning my questions. Carol | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Hi Everyone, This five points of Calvinism is about as wicked as EGW's books, don't you agree? I purchased a book several years ago called "The Handbook Of Denominations". It had a brief summary on the history of all major religions and a short listing of their doctrines. (I think it had about 250 listings at the time of print) I thought it was interesting to note that Calvinism is very much like a religion referred to as "the two-seed-in-the-faith brethren". This group is totally non-missionary in their faith. They believe that you are either born with a good seed that will follow after God or you are born with a "bad seed" that is totally lost and without hope of redemption. So they reason that a mission for God is unneccessary; I can't help but wonder why the poor fools meet for an assembly, but I guess it is to get acquainted with the ones you'll spend eternity with, right? Sounds much more proud that the SDAs ever could, doesn't it? It reminds me of the joke I told last night too. This same book even has "Spiritualists" listed in it and according to what the book says, they claim that Jesus Christ was the very first spiritualist (medium) and he is their proof that you can speak to the dead who have "crossed over" They use the passage of scripture that told of Christ speaking to the two figures (the story where his two disciples wanted to build alters to them when they saw Jesus speaking with them on the mountain). Well, anybody that studies any of the Bible seriously at all will know that one of those figures was Elijah and Elijah did not die, he was taken up in a fiery chariot. So much for that justification for practicing satanic ritual! One more that caught my eye was the "Shakers" and they are properly named, due to the fact that they literally stand and shake when they begin to pray and "supposedly" get in the Spirit. You can do a lifelong study on different religions and the reasons why they practice what they do and just as soon as you read of one, another one is in the making. Last I heard, there were over 16,000 branches of religion. Looks like you can worship whoever, whatever, and whenever you want these days and, for the most part, no one gives a #### what you do as long as you don't try to "force" others to agree with you. I will say it one more time, we are at the point in Biblical history where no one is able to endure good sound doctrine anymore. (The lukewarm church age)People are even quoting scripture about the "latter rain" as an excuse to get all "charismatic" and speak in tongues and all that stuff, but the thing is, this goes right back to the reason that people joined the SDA movement--it is that people want to help God somehow and want to SEE evidence of a renewed life in God by ACTING differently. When God said that he made us "new creatures" and he said that he would come to live in our hearts, he never said that we would speak in tongues or get "slain in the spirit" as many are teaching today. Matter of fact, we are to be a sober people. To be drunk with the spirit is not license to ACT like a drunk!!! Our filling of the Spirit should make us love one another with a geniune Christ-like love, and that love will show more through our acts of kindness that any wild and crazy shaking or dance routine. The Bible even states that the indwelling Holy Spirit prays in our behalf with groanings "that we CANNOT utter". Paul also preaches that if these people that spoke didn't have somehow to intrepret, that they were to keep silent and when speaking to do it one at a time or two and no more than three, and he stately, matter of factly, that if we just went "wild" with the "feel good" that we would appear to be a bunch of fools to any stranger that happened to come in to worship with us. Also, as for the tongues and other so-called spiritual gifts, we should really be careful with the way we let just anybody "lay" hands on us because unfortunately our willing, sometimes newborn, spirits are so eager to "feel" something that a demon can sneak in if we don't keep up our guard. (Before you jump on that with both feet, I am not suggesting that a truly saved person can be "possessed" by a demon) but we can allow ourselves to be caught off guard in a vulnerable position that Satan has been known to use for his wicked purposes without a person even being aware of it, maybe EGW was one such person, who knows? God is just and will reward accordingly, so, I guess I need to quit trying to figure it out. Back to demonic activity. Case in point, this is a true story that a good friend of mine heard about a foreign missionary a few years ago. A missionary went to a remote village in a foreign country and learned the native language so that he could teach them during his ministry term there. He came home after being in this country for about five years and wanted to attend a church at home with fellow Christians and went with a friend and wound up in this charismatic church where everyone was running up and down the aisles and waving their hands in the air and falling out in the floors and having a real "feel good" time of it when, suddenly, this man hears a familiar language, he quickly realized that this was the native language that he had learned in preparation for his missionary tour. He immediately heard this woman speaking such HORRIBLE stuff, pure filth, and literally cursing God and speaking blasphemies like he had never heard before. He related that the woman was standing there looking like a "saint" with her hands in the air with a brilliant smile on her face and tears streaming down her cheeks while swaying back and forth in a total state of bliss, and everyone around her was just praising God because she had "gotten in the Spirit" and then this missionary raised his hands and calmly spoke these precious words "in the name of my dear sweet Jesus, I command you to come out of her, you unclean spirit". When he did this, the woman screamed and fainted and he said that he was almost stampeded with the crowd that ran from the scene because they were scared out of their wits. For any of you that may be visiting with charismatics and feeling GOOD about it, just make sure that you have ALL the facts about tongues studied out before you let someone "help" you to speak in tongues. You will find that on the day of Pentecaust, it was foreign languages that were heard that day and not some "unknown" tongue at all, and in other studies, note that Paul spoke at least five languages and many wanted to be able to spread the gospel like him, and he plainly said that God gave gifts as HE chose, it is not something that anyone can just transfer to you by laying hands on you, this very act has no scripture to back it up. He also taught that understanding scripture was more important than speaking in another language too, and the chapter in question leads us to the famous love chapter that begins with the words: though I speak with the tongues of angels.....I Corinthians 13. I hope that you all take this in the kind and enlightening spirit that I intended it. I don't want people to think that I am trying to rob them of their new found joy in the Lord like what happened last month when I tried to show the errors in the NIV that so many of you have and cherish. I do have opinions like everyone else here but at least I do have God's word that I am suppose to be studying, exhorting, learning, and correcting, and I believe what he says when he says "to whom much is given, much is required". I don't think that God reveals errors to one person to keep it hidden under a basket, I don't say things to HURT people or try to steal their joy, I am trying to be the watchman on the tower of Ezekiel 33, we need to put on the full armour of God and warn others who just may not know what they are about to get into. What's that phrase? Out of the frying pan and into the fire!!! Don't leave the SDAs just to turn right around and get into something equally as bad. Having said all of that, I guess I need to finish up and get a quick supper fixed before I call it another night. At least it is almost Friday. Bye for now, God bless you all, Janice | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Janice, the extremes of Calvinism are call Hyper-Calvinism. The PCA church I have been attending, although they teach the five points of Calvin, they have a debt free church where the majority of the money given is given to missions. Even though they preach "limited atonement" and election, they use Romans10:14, "...And how can they hear without someone preaching to them." There point is we do no know who is saved or not until the call is made. I think it is dangerous because you can walk away from a person who doesn't accept saying they are not one of the elect only to find someone's different more empathic approach was used by the Holy Spirit and you wrote him/her off. So this Presbyterian, Calvinist church must be a little different from the "Frozen chosen" of a pure Calvinist church. Bob_2 | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Bob, Thank you for your comments. Although I do not share all of Dr. Sproul's theological views (such as infant baptism and semi-Sabbatarianism). I do, however, wholeheartedly embrace Calvinism overall. I consider Dr. Sproul as one of the most knowledgeable theologians today. The usual alternative, Arminianism, is not good news for the pre-Christian and Christian. Adherents of groups like Adventists, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and Pentecostals experience a "roller-coaster" Christian experience. They believe that they can actually lose their salvation several times each day. Can a justified person lose his justification? The Reformed view of eternal security is called "perseverance of the saints," the P in TULIP. The idea here is, "Once in grace, always in grace." Another way of stating it is, "If you have it, you never lose it; if you lose it, you never had it." God does not unadopt His children nor do His children become unreborn. True Christians can fall seriously and radically. However, they cannot fall totally and finally. The reason true Christians do not fall from grace is that God graciously keeps them from falling. Perseverance is what we do. Preservation is what God does. We persevere because God preserves. The assurance of salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. With respect to assurance of salvation there are basically four kinds of people in the world. (1) There are people who are not saved who know that they are not saved. (2) There are people who are saved who do not know that they are saved. (3) There are people who are saved who know that they are saved. (4) There are people who are not saved who "know" that they are saved. I heartily agree, Bob, that we cannot know who God has chosen to become part of His family. It is not our duty to judge, dismiss, or condemn others. Our assumption must perpetually be that EVERYONE we encounter is eligible for the gift of salvation. We must NEVER give up on anyone to be saved. Calvinism, by the way, does NOT teach that it is our human judgment, responsiblity, or examination that determines the eventual rescue of the lost. Christians are commanded to preach and to witness, but our Sovereign God alone calls His elect. Indeed, we are the unworthy recipients of God's blessings as we reach out to others in Jesus' name. Man does not have the moral ability in and of himself to come to Christ. God must do something first. Our nature is so corupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ. We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe. In His amazing grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, the horrors of Calvinism are this: if you have a person who is depressed, in the depth of despondence, I question the T of Total Depression and also a God "creating some to be destroyed for his glory" and how you help someone that may be beginning to believe they are one created to be destroyed for his glory because they can not come out of their depression and give up. I have two daughters , one with some emotional disorders, and this is one of my greatest fears. I believe that Calvinism is worse than anything I experience with EGW. Another point to show you my perspective, respectfully. I am a science major in my undergraduate. Can you envision a God and His Son sitting in heaven saying lets create a world with beings in our image. Only to guarantee that everyone responds to our calling we will build a receptor into each one we have selected, before we create them, to be saved at the other end of this experiment. QUSESTION: What kind of a God do we believe in that would do such a creation FOR HIS GLORY. This view of God is worse than anything I ever had presented from the pen of EGW. This is like a scientist who creates a robot and places it in a maze, and because he is the creature he knows which way the robot will turn given the corners of the maze that present themselves and he predicts correctly how the robot will work itself through the maze. What would be the purpose for a Loving God to do this. John Westley the father of Methodism in 1739 preached the following in a sermon on predestination. "This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil -- more false, more cruel, more unjust ..." This can be found in "Lend Me Your Ears - Great Speeches in History" -- Selected and Introduced by William Safire. Dennis, I respectfully submit that I do not wish to get into name calling, and talking of Satan orginated happenings as some have portrayed on the SDA situation, I only quote what John Westley another well known theologian says on the topic. I do not want this to effect the dialogue and I certain am open to additional "light" on this. Hopefully you can see my concern on this portion of "Reformed Theology", a hazard that one former has run in to on the way out of the SDAs. Bob_2 Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Dennis, am I right that Reformed Theologians believe that God choses the sinners he preordained to be saved because man being totally depraved would never choose God vs. Armenianism (sp)(I hate labels)that teaches that man's free will is involved? By the way I get the impression that you might be studying Reformed Theology, is that correct? Bob_2 | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Dennis, That was a great post. I wish that I had the gift of expounding on sound doctrine like you obviously do. Something seems to get lost between my brain and the computer keys, but you are right, we should never mark off anyone with the assumption that aren't worth speaking too for we have been saved by grace and as such are called to be ambassadors for Christ as we go out and witness to ALL people, regardless of race, creed, color, nationality, etc. It is our MISSION and that is why I feel that God led me to my church which is a Missionary Baptist Church and we do preach on eternal security (loved the way you described it, by the way) I will be trying to get back to the forum this weekend but for now, I need to get up from my boss man's desk and log off. Thanks again, Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pure Calvinism and Arminianism will never "agree" with each other. The remarkable thing, though, is that both have produced passionate Christ-followers. (Both have also produced dogmatic, difficult theologians as well!) The Bible really does have passages that seem to support both concepts. For example, Jeremiah 29:13 says, "You will seek me and find me, when you seek for me with all your heart." Isaiah 65:1 says, "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I." Luke 19:9-10, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." "Hebrews 3:15 (quoting Psalm 95:7-11): "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Romans 9:18 & 21-24: "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden...Doe not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathÑprepared for destruction? What if he did this tomake the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for gloryÑeven us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Revelation 17:8: "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come." I suspect that if we were not limited to time, which we can only see linearly as it unfolds in front of us, but could see from eternity which is outside of and around time, many of these questions might make more sense to us. But I do know this: As I have come to know Jesus as a person who loves me instead of as a concept I needed, God's sovereignty and his choosing me has made more and more sense. As Dennis also said, we can't pre-judge others and determine which people will respond to Him and which won't. In fact, we have no idea. Our commission is to preach the gospel. Jesus made that very clear. I have to be obedient to that commission even though God chooses and calls people. There is a paradox there I can't explain, yet I believe both are true. It brings me back to 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 and the idea that spiritual things are spiritually discerned; they are are not comprehensible by means of wordly wisdom or intellectual analysis. One of the biggest changes in my understanding has been to see the universe as entirely God-centric instead of humanity-centric. If human life were the ultimate "value" in the universe, the tragedy in our lives would be evidence of a cruel and arbitrary God. But if God is the central value, if all life and creation are to glorify him and exalt him (Romans 1:18-20), then the trauma and "out-of-control-ness" in my life are really not random; they are the results of God's sovereign permission, and they are for the purpose of his glory. The great irony is that, just as Jesus said he who loses his life will find it, as I have begun to put God into that sovereign position of centrality and ultimate autority and value, my own life has seemed less fearful and anxious and more peaceful. That is not to say my life has smoothed out; quite the contrary, actually! I seem to have more demands placed on me, more stressful situations, etc. But God in his faithfulness has also become increasingly real and present to me, and I find myself loving him and sensing his presence and peace and persistence more and more as I trust him with the conundrums of my life more and more. (By the way, off the subject--"conundrums" was a vocabulary work I gave my 9th graders. One who obviously failed to study before the quiz used the word this way in a sentence: 'I played the conundrums in the school band.' Sometimes I wonder why I bother...! But God Is Sovereign!) A book that wonderfully addresses this issue of our lives existing to glorify God is John Piper's book "Desiring God". If we judge God from a human standard, his existing to create creatures to glorify him seems monstrous. But that, I believe, is precisely part of our misunderstanding. The idea seems monstrous to us because we know intuitively that humans who insist on power, control and obesiance ARE monsters because humans cannot maintain absolute power and remain truly human. We instinctively know that unless we serve, we become monstrous. But we are like this preciesly because we are creatures, not the creator. We are born with a drive to worship and be loyal to someone outside ourselves. That is a mark of our creature-ness. It is a characteristic we cannot ascribe to our Creator. On the flip side, our Creator became human to reveal that God, while absolute in authority, reigns to glorify himself by loving and "serving" his creatures. God's sovereign authority and calling, I believe, do not diminish us; in some paradoxical way, they exalt us by bringing us to life and giving us completeness in him. Colleen | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Colleen, in a small group fellowship with our church I heard one of the most horrible things I have ever heard in my 5O + years of life. The "believer" stated that they did not feel they could tell the man on the street that God loved him because he did not know if he was one of the Elect. Do you see that this is about as horrible as anything that SDAism put in front of us. Even when at the front of this church in big letters it says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This doesn't start out saying he only loves those who accept him. Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Freeatlast, And I am sure you are not saying all will be saved, Reformed Theologians are afraid of that thought or giving that impression by straying from the concept of the Elect. Talk about EGW and her concept of a "Shut Door". Bob_2 | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Bob, I don't think the Scripture says that. In fact, I think the Scripture here implies that some are willing to not repent and perish. What do you think? |
