| Author | Message | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I have a question.You know how adventist claim that the Pope is the one who changed the sabbath to sunday?They even have all these supposibly quotes from their books or whatever.I never looked it up to see if that was true or not,I just took it as truth.Today Jerry said that if the Pope wasn't the one who claimed to be God on earth and the one to change the sabbath,he could see going to church on sunday.I didn't have time to talk to him about it b/c it was his lunch break,but it shocked me.I had sent him a e-mail '101 reasons why Gentiles don't keep the sabbath'last nite,I guess he has been studing some it.So if anyone has any answers for me as to whether or not this is even true or just another one of the adventist claims against the catholic church,please let me know. God Bless, Angie | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Angie, It's one of those questions that gets both a yes and a no answer, will get back with you on it tomorrow. Janice | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
From the Apology of Justin the Martyr, written around 150 A.D., more than a hundred years before any POPE and nearly 200 years before Constantine to the Emperor to ask for justice from the persecutions of his day. (Thomas sent this to me some time ago) And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,146 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,147 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,148 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. Check out www.truthorfables.com they have more early writings that prove the Pope didn't change the Sabbath and even Bacchiochi has said that isn't true. You know, the whole Pope thing is really the most outdated doctrine, they should really rethink that junk. Christians don't even "like" Catholics, they don't "like" the Pope and what clout does the Catholic church have? Too many lawsuits and molestation going on there for people to listen to the RCC. I see no way the Pope can be the antichrist. A few verses that are brought to my attention are: "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (John 5:43). The Pope does not come in another name. Christians have been around for a long time and those that don't want to receive the gospel are looking for something ELSE. I think the anti-christ will be that something else they are looking for. . In Dan. 9:27 we are told that the Antichrist "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". 8:11, "Yea, he magnified himself even against the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away" The RCC could care less about the temple mount the Muslims have occupation to the land where the temple mount is and it is Islaam's 3rd holiest sight. I think that the Anti-christ will give that land to Israel and they will speak peace and safety-for a short time until the anti-christ takes it back. The dominion of the Antichrist shall be world-wide. The coming Man of Sin will assert a supremacy that will be unchallenged and universal. "And all the world wondered after the Beast" (Rev. 13:3). "And power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" The duration of Antichrist's career, after he comes out in his true character, will be limited to forty-two months. In Dan. 7:25 we learn that this one who shall "think to change times and laws", will have these "given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time" Ellen White and SDA's think "to change the times and the laws" will be, as they teach, changing the Sabbath. That's not even the context of what happened in Daniel, the laws and times of the day were changed, not God's laws. If the Antichrist is to deceive even the very elect, he can't go around persecuting the Jews. I think he will appear to love the Jews and have there best interest at heart, he will permit them to sacrifice again in their temple, which they are in the process of planning for rebuilding now and a red heifer has been born and is still found spotless as required by their sacrificial system, he will seem like a very GOOD guy to many. Consider this: The Presidents of the EU don't get elected by the people. The way they do it is weird. They rotate every 6 months. But here is another interesting point re: Daniel 7: 25: "He will speak against the Most High and His saints and try to change (the set times) and the laws." This is only my opinion, but I believe this may be talking about the AC trying to change the set 6 month rotation that is now in place. I also believe that he will try to change the laws of the nations, into World Law and start the World or Global Court System. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
thanks sabra.I had already came to the conclusion that the whole Daniel teaching was totally out of context.But I will go to truth or fables. Angie | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hmmmmm. . . What about the Pope? He's old. He's wrinkled. He can't stand up undaided. He slouches when he sits for very long. He probably wakes up for a few minutes a day. He's a human being. I don't agree with his theology, but he certainly doesn't fit the biblical description of THE antichrist, nor does he fit the description of the antichrists (many) that John mentions in his letter (First John). Daniel? Some of what he wrote was directly fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. Get a Roman Catholic Bible (the New Jerusalem Bible is EXCELLENT) and read First and Second Maccabees. They may not be scripture, but they are accurate historically. The Pope is more in the minds of the followers than he is in his own mind (Ha). Steve | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
ha ha!yea,I studied that about Antiochus,thats interresting reading.When I first came out of the sda church,that was my first study.Daniel,the IJ and the sancuary,all that ties together in one way or another. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Angie, Do you know the first time Jesus was worshipped? If you don't go to Matthew 28:17 and check it out for yourself. When you fully understand it in your own mind then present it to your husband. A question to ask after presenting this is: If it is such an abomination to worship on Sunday then why did Jesus allow the disciples to do it? Hope this helps. If it doesn't I would be more than glad to help you more with it. The reason I want you to check it out yourself so that it will be yours and not mine. When you know fully in your own mind it is much better than someone telling you this is the way it is. Happy Searching, Carol | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Angie, The SDAs have printed a book called "Daily Bible Readings For the Home" which relates a lot of information from Catholic historical writings, in the chapter concerning Sabbath, that may or may not be accurate, but it looks legitimate even though I haven't actually looked any of the information up since I felt it was a waste of time. I will say that the Catholics always loved to feel like they were in control and may have very well placed it within their records that they "changed" Sabbath to Sunday but it is a ridiculous supposition on their part. Christians were meeting on the first day of the week ever since they were first called Christian, even Christ's own disciples, a Biblical fact, and many even preached daily as we begin to study about the early church in the book of Acts, and were living together in one accord giving ALL that they had to further the gospel and show love to their fellow man. That was the main reason that I really wanted to begin my study of the New Testament in the book of Acts. I have already done some studying on the book of I John and edited some of it into my new web site, but I don't have the site anywhere near what I want it to be, so, be warned-it is "under construction". I will end this post with the web site information and hope that you will be easy on me with your judgments, I do want your input though, just be sensitive and give me some suggestions as to what you think should be placed in it, okay? Here is the site: www.thelumpkinhome.com and hope you enjoy. Also, maybe a private email would be better if you have "negative" thoughts, okay? Good night for now, Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Actually, the Catholics claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and they claim that this demonstrates their authority. The great irony I see in all this is that only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that the Catholic church under Constantine changed the day. Christians understand that early believers began to worship on Sunday because they were honoring Jesus' resurrection_not to mention that Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also on Sunday. There has never been a true change of Sabbath to Sunday. Saturday is still the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. If one claims to keep the 10 Commandments, that person should also be worshiping on Saturday and keeping that day as outlined in Exodus and Leviticus. The New Covenant changed everything; Jesus is now real, and rest in him has replaced the shadow of a weekly day of rest. Christians worship on Sunday not because the day is sacred, not because the sacredness has been transferred from Saturday, not because someone declared the day changed--none of these things. They worship on Sunday simply out of tradition and remembrance and even convenience. Christians do not consider Sunday to be holy. Isn't it amusing that the argument for the central teaching of Adventism, the Sabbath, is bolstered by Catholic claims? Evangelists delight in quoting Catholic literature "proving" that the church changed the day. But those claims do not make it a universal truth, and those claims do not explain the early Christians' worship on Sunday long before there was a Constantine! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I find it interesting that SDA's view of church history only begins with the Catholic church. It seemed to me, growing up and learning about this in school, that right after the New Testament was written the Catholics took over. That's just not the case at all! Sam Bacchiochi (I'm still flabbergasted at this) did a good job of destroying the idea that Catholics changed the day of worship. The excerpts are on this web site somewhere.............. And yes, it is interesting how many significant events took place on Sunday. Christ rose from the dead, the church began, the first sermon was preached, the first baptisms took place, offerings were set aside on this day...etc. All of this you never hear about in SDA'ism....... | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Amusing, indeed! What a "love/hate" relationship between the two churches. On the one hand the RCC is associated with the "other side" in Revelations. On the other hand, there is a strengthening relationship and growing similarities between the two organizations. Especially hilarious is the proud display of the papal "imprimitur" on some of Bacchiocchi's published works. The "imprimitur" is only a permission to publish without strong objection, not a full endorsement. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Colleen, How can one explain the Adventist view that the Pope's title Vicar of Christ or Vicariovs Filii Dei in latin adding up to 666 by taking the roman numeral values found in the Latin title. Example: V = 5 I = 1 C = 100 A = 0 R = 0 I = 1 O = 0 V = 5 S = 0 112 F = 0 I = 1 L = 50 I = 1 I = 1 53 D = 500 E = 0 I = 1 501 112 53 + 501 666 | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Brad, That is an old "urban legend" that never seems to die. First of all, the title comes from a well known forgery from the middle ages, "The Donation of Constantine." You can find an English translation in various places on the web. The title was never officially used by the pontif and never appears on any vestment or in any official papal documents. The use of Roman numerals to come up with 666 is very convenient to those wishing to assign the number to the pope. Just look at the number of zeros in your post. This shows that by the use of as many "non numeric" letters you can come up with several good sounding titles/names that can add up to 666. I have seen several. However, it also means that the technique can be used to point to many others. For instance (with a little added technique): If you change the letters of a person to Roman letters here is an example: In the Roman alphabet there is no J, U, or W. Also, all letters are capitalized. J is usually expressed as I U is usually expressed as V and W (while rare) can be associated with VV (double U so double V) This was seen in some dealings of the Roman Empire with the people of the British Ilses) So E = 0 L = 50 L = 50 E = 0 N = 0 G = 0 O = 0 U = V = 5 L = 50 D = 500 W = VV = 5 + 5 = 10 H = 0 I = 1 T = 0 E = 0 100 + 555 + 11 = 666 So, what does that prove? Nothing other than a little work can make a "code" out of anything. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
The most frightening pope is Pope Ellen! Now,all you Adventists out there go say 20 Hail Ellen's. Really though, of course the Catholic church claims to have changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. It only makes sense they would claim this because they also claim that Peter was the first pope and to be Christian is to be Catholic, they are one in the same, therefore since they are the spokesperson (organization) for God on earth than any Holy mandate would be by Catholic authority. Of course, we all know the Catholic church in this regard is no different than the SDA church in that the SDA church claims the highest authority on earth is the SDA General Conference and the JW religion teaches that the highest authority on earth is the Watchtower Society and the LDS church teaches the highest arthority on earth is whoever their current prophit is. But, it is goofy to my way of thinking that the SDA's cling so much to a few statements made by a few Catholics about Catholic authority but at the same time the SDA's treach everything else the Catholic church ever said, taught or promoted is wrong. Growing up I used to actually hear from the SDA pulpit on Sabbath mornings entire sermons about the evilness of the Catholic church. It always seemed to me that the main doctrine that holds the SDA church together is not the Sabbath but rather their teaching of fear and hatred towards the Catholic church. Get rid of that and the SDA church falls. Why do I believe this way? Because their teachings about the universal upcoming Sunday laws and their teaching of Saturday Sabbath obserance and their teachings about Easter, Christmas, etc. all stem from the SDA hatred of the Catholic church. I also believe that the SDA churchs refusal to take an anti-abortion stance is also because the Catholic church i anti-abortion and even on issues that the Catholic church is obiviouselly right the SDA denomination will go opposite the Catholic church just because and only because they have a policy of going opposite evereything and anything the Catholic church teaches. Also, it is just plain stupid to be telling little children that they have nothing against Catholic people but they hate the Catholic church. Most kids just don't seperate the two. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Jerry, I wished I had seen that one at a prophesy semeniar. And the thing about the mark of the beast going on the hand or forehead associated with keeping any old covenant law that was to be written on the hand or forehead. Do you think that someday the mark of the beast will be connected to keeping old covenant laws like the Sabbath. If it did it would be kind of reaping what Adventist sow. Brad | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Jerry, When I was an Adventist I always wandered if the adventist movement was the second beast that came from the earth and made an image to first beast. I always that that there was something funny going on like having a church goverment or involvement in every country in the world as they claim. If what Adventist say is truth about the Pope's who claimed to be God thoughout time before E. G. W. Then what Adventist have done with Ellen G. White by saying that only she is the Spirit of Prophesy or has the testimony of Jesus is about the same as a Pope claiming to be God. In Rev.13 it says that the beast will not allow people to buy or sell without the mark. Buying and selling could be referring to trade santions or it could be referring to a spiritual buying and selling. For example the parable of the 10 virgins, Ish.55 mercy and with the church of Laodicea when Jesus said to buy from Him Gold tried in the fire = trails of faith. White garments = righous acts of Jesus. And eye salve to see the kingdom of God. Seemed to me that if you are not an Adventist according to them, that you can not spiritually buy these things. Then if you consider that those who do not receive the mark of the beast should be killed. That could be looked at in a spiritual way to. If you hate without just cause you commit murder in your heart. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Brad 2, The questions you ask are interesting. I don't know if I can agree with your suggested answers. For that matter, I can't disagree either. I likely do not have as much curiousity/anxiety/fear about the future as some do. Surely we have been told to "watch and pray." Yet we were also told "fear not." Could you be right? Sure. Could you be wrong? Sure. I tend to focus on here and now. As to the future, I know that Jesus will come in His own time and in His own way. His enemies will be placed under his feet. His beloved ones will be greeted with this:
And all else will be to His glory. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Jerry, I guess that just the way it is when you look at a spiritual interpertion of scripture. And the good thing that it is that it is for the here and now. I think will have to apply a spiritual view for the here and now and at the same time be prepared for a physical event that can repeat itself over and over again. Some experience and physical event in the here and now and most in north america look for it in the future. Anyway keep on looking for the glory of the Lord for that same glory is in you. Read what Jesus prayed for in the garden. John 17 |
