| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Cindy, It's a relief to know that you don't accept a bogus grace that allows the unrepentant sinner to do exactly as he pleases. If that idea -- and I'm not saying it's yours or Patti's -- is allowed to permeate this website the Adventists would have us for lunch. I kid you not! Under the grace that changes lives for the better, Max | ||
| Cindy |
Max, One last thought before I head to bed. It's very late where I am; but at this time nobody else in the house wants the computer, plus you guys out there in the west are still typing away and I keep checking the new messages and keep staying on...and on... Yes, we need to be sensitive to how we are preceived...sensitive but not unduly worried... We must seek His Holy Spirit always! and live for an Audience of One, meaning what does Jesus think of us!! We can't always run scared of what others might think or misconstrue from what gets posted. I think I read somewhere to pray before we post and I want to do that. I pray that all who read here will take note and will see that "we have been with JESUS." HE is My Final Resting Place... Blessings, Max! In Debt to His Mercy, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Yes, Cindy, Thanks for that reminder that Jesus' opinion is the only one that counts. But I am not worried or scared. I am jealous for God. We are an outreach to Adventists imprisoned by their own thralldom. If their leaders can convince them that FAF is "antinomian," as the catchword goes, then our influence will be quickly neutralized. I believe that God is using me to protect our witness. And that is why I feel so driven to stay up all night, if necessary, to "Stand on Mt. Zion and battle for the Lord," as Teddy Roosevelt once put it. The love of Christ burns like molten lava within me. We have come too far to be quenched now. Grace and peace, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Where did you get all that wisdom from? You KNOW the answer I'm looking for too;-)))))))))ggggg Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Max. I like what you wrote, that you are "jealous for God." I know exactly what you mean and have felt that burning many times!!; especially helping out in evangelistic meetings and hearing such legalistic nonsence that is put forth as a requirement for salvation... I get angry at the way God is portrayed and all the requirements before one can even be baptised!! It about makes me cry right now thinking about some of those times. Unfortunately, I don't think we can avoid the charge of anti-nomianism; although I will do my best to keep focusing back to the Cross of Christ. As I've said, the message of the cross is my motivation, my strength, and my joy! Good-night!! In His Grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, loved your post!! Of course! You guessed it... Everything I know or think I've learned from my husband; we women can't really study and think on our own, can we??!! (ha, ha..) Honestly, I think the study of Salvation in Christ alone is mind-expanding!! Really the Holy Spirit's work, isn't it? Good-night to you, too, Maryann!! Resting in His mercy always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, I had shut down but just had to turn around in the hall and crank this 'puter up again. I just figured out why you are so bubbly about grace: After being in apprenticeship for 26 years under the hard taskmastership of Richard, you truly understand grace and freedom since he turned you loose on this Fourum! Hahahahaha to you;-) Maryann | ||
| Max |
Cindy, ^^ When he [Jesus] was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, "Were not our hearts BURNING within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" ^^ Max | ||
| sherry |
Max,Thanks for your statement of :Bogus grace is "grace" which says that the redeemed sinner can live his life without obeying the commandments of Jesus, without bearing the cross of Jesus, without the discipline that is discipleship. and your appropriate jealousy for God and this site....I needed to know that is where FAF stands for myself. So thank you for saying what you said. | ||
| Grace-filled |
What a great conversation about grace. I think many people struggle with this issue because of one thing--they don't really understand grace, or what it really means. I think Max Lucado said it best, "Grace understood is holiness desired." People who fall for "cheap grace" or use it as a baseball bat to accuse others is because of one reason. True grace demands the most personal acountability to God. Those who truly understand grace are so overwhelemed with God's gift that any thought of cheapening it is throughly disgusting. The best analogy I can think of is the story of Little Orphan Annie. She was adopted by Daddy Warbucks (sp?). Her unconditional acceptance was so overwhelming that the thought of returning to the orphanage would have been ridiculous. We have been adopted by the King of the Universe. What awaits us is so overwhelming and so beyond the scope of our imaginations that it puzzles me greatly that we haven't, in 2000 years, figured out a way to communicate the gift of grace more effectively. I know I didn't get it for a long time, and even now, I struggle with how to discuss it appropriately. Of course we still make mistakes and of course we could do anything and still be under grace, but the thought of disapointing God is worse than the thought of abusing my children. And even though I do disappoint Him (daily), I know that one day I will have to look Him in the eyes and say thank you. And I have this burning desire to make sure I disappoint Him as little as possible. Sorry for the rant. Great site. One who finds grace absolutely amazing. | ||
| Max |
Dear Sherry and Grace-Filled, Before I go to sleep tonight, I wish to commend to you words of our Savior: ^^ Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." ^^ -- Matthew 7:15-27 NIV. Thanks for listening, precious jewels, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Grace-filled, thanks for a wonderful post! Colleen | ||
| Pat Darnell |
Forgive me for re-iterating: Faith (grace) and works, as Luther said, must be kept far asunder! Grace is one thing only: It is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT of works, lest any man should boast. Period. Finis. Fine. I am listening at this very moment to a communion by Dr. Gene Scott. He is talking about those churches who insist that we be "worthy" before we participate in communion. But don't WE know? We had to have the mini-rebaptism of footwashing to "get ready" to partake of the Lord's supper. Jesus only is "worthy". And only by faith in Him are we "worthy". Alas! How many are turned away because they cannot "get ready", cannot become perfect, cannot do the works. My very own brother said that he would "come back to the church when I can do it all." It was a great blessing from God that I was able to show him that Jesus was "ready" for us! He quickly understood (in his 50's) that we cannot become "worthy" enough to stand before Christ. Please don't pervert "grace" out of fear of what our former fellow members might think. It is only what God thinks that matters. We must, instead, help them understand His grace. And His grace - free, yet expensive - is NON-negotiable! And it is sufficient. "This grace was GIVEN us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time!" "For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only-begotten Son that whosever BELIEVETH IN HIM would have eternal life.." if - if - if??? NO!! No ifs, ands or buts, dear ones. I promise you that if you are going to look to your own works, you are going to fall from grace. Did you know that the only place this phrase is used is in Galatians 5 where Paul says "You who are trying to be justified by law have been ALIENATED FROM CHRIST: You have FALLEN FROM GRACE." Please, please, don't let your own works, your fruits, if you please, become the focus of your religion! JESUS CHRIST IS THE REALITY, the CRUX, the SUBSTANCE, the PRIORITY! We are but the grateful recipients of His grace! Christian growth may never happen with some; it will not be the same with all...but it is a subject WHICH SHOULD BE KEPT FAR ASUNDER from grace. My husband had suggested "Yes, but..." for the title of my book, because everytime we say to the legalist, "We are saved by grace alone", the response is ALWAYS, "Yes, I believe that, too, BUT..." The Gospel of the saving grace of Jesus is non-negotiable... Pat :-) | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Pat, I couldn't agree more! Thank-you for those encouraging words. It is totally true about the term, "Yes, I believe that, too, BUT..." This is the standard response. ABSOLUTELY FREE GRACE is just too much for some people and they have to start qualifying it. As Hannah Whitall Smith wrote back in the late 1800's: "A religion of bondage always exalts self. It is what I do,--MY efforts, MY wrestlings, MY faithfulness. But a religion of liberty leaves self nothing to glory in; it is all CHRIST, and what HE does,, and what HE is, and how wonderfully HE saves." One topic you mentioned above really started me thinking again! Footwashing... I know it is a very meaningful experience to many people; but, and I almost feel guilty and unspiritual to say this, but I've NEVER liked it! At least 6 years ago I studied into it and concluded it was NOT a 'DUTY' as Ellen White says it IS! Yes, I know I should still bow to the authority of the Prophet's interpretation of the Bible! :=)) (I'm sorry I don't have the reference on that EGW commentary). To me it was cultural at the time of Jesus and did give us an example of His wonderful humility and service; and yet, I do not see where He instituted a continuing ordinance to be followed. This 'humble servant attitude' can be shown by His disciples in a multitude of ways! I think it is told about in the gospel of John only and later the term'"washing the feet of the saints" seems to imply acts of service by Christ's followers, not that they were doing the 'Ordinance of Humility'. Anyway, it has been a struggle for me since I did not want to appear proud and 'sinful' in not doing it, but did not want to do it just because I was told I should 'prepare' myself for communion. I have been told by some I have a rebellious nature! For the last five years, my solution has been to stay in the 'sanctuary' with the others who don't want to participate for one reason or another and TALK to them. I enjoy conversations and have found a few others who think like I do... Again, I would not want to put down those who feel this is a wonderful experience for them. I notice now we have a husband/wife footwashing room option. This is another little twist on the whole subject, isn't it? Always a debtor to His Grace Alone, Cindy | ||
| Pat Darnell |
Adventists are not aware that a number of other churches practice "footwashing" but not as a preparation to the Lord's Supper. I have been present at a footwashing in a Catholic Church, and we've seen TBN hold footwashings on a number of occasions. In fact, as you note, John is the only one who mentions it, and he says "It was *before* Passover". The commentaries agree that we do not know that this was at the same time as the Last Supper, but putting it there gave the early Adventists another thing to "do" - Ellen's mantra was, "Get ready, get ready, get ready!" - for communion, for the time of trouble, for the second coming...on and on..... The one thing that all agree on: it is a part of "loving one another as I have loved you." I think it is a mental thing - the willingness to humiliate ourselves for another's benefit - don't you think? Pat :-) | ||
| visitor |
Hi Pat, I appreciated your thoughts on Grace. But a question, you said that christan growth may never happen with some. And that it is a subject that should be kept far asunder from Grace. I thought that christian growth is a natural by product of God's grace. Not something to gage whether we are accepted by God. No. And not something we must "work on" to be saved, but something wonderful He does in and for us when we are saved. Something he does for everyone who is saved. For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. eph. 2:8-10 Since being set free from all the legalistic teachings of Ellen White. I feel so free and accepted by God. Yet I still believe God can and does work out His life in believers. Yet it is always imperfect and in no way meritorious towards are salvation. What is your opinion of these ideas? A visitor | ||
| breezywendy |
You know what I think? Everyone here sounds like what the Ellen White and the Adventist church started out to be, ideally should have been, and was corrupted from. I wish that more Adventist churches preached grace from the pulpit. My dad always did,and it wasn't until I got into Academy and college that I started having panic attacks that I wouldn't be good enough. | ||
| Patti |
Here is another SDA "fact" that cannot be found in Scripture: That the gift of the Holy Spirit is mainly for regenerating the character of believers. If one will do the research, one will find that the MAIN purpose of the Holy Spirit is to testify of the historical dead and risen Savior. It is heresy to try and divert the glory that should be Christ's and Christ's alone to our own paltry and puny attempts at obedience. | ||
| Max |
It is not "our own paltry and puny attempts at obedience" that accomplish repentance and obedience. It is rather the Holy Spirit -- including both the Son God and the Father God -- arriving unbidden via alien grace alone who does so. | ||
| Patti |
Compared to the holiness of Jesus Christ, to His absolute obedience, to His perfect fulfilment of all of the law, our "righteousness" is not even as good as "paltry and puny." It is filthy rags. Grace = the Father's infinite mercy in forgiving undeserving sinners for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. |
