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Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

In answer to your question. For myself I believe it is just a smoke screen to get us off Jesus and on to something that is irrelevant. Like you say it is not on what He died but that He in fact did.
And more important He did not stay dead but rose from the grave so that we too will have a resurrected body; life.

I believe they go to the obscure(or unimportant) instead of looking at the obvious thus you have the interpretation of Daniel which not even they can understand or if they can they cannot explain it so that others can understand. Not even their own pastors understand it and when Dale Ratzlaff questioned it he was told after long silence that it was what Ellen White said so it was true(not exacetly the quote).

I can fully appreciate someone not having the Spirit of the Living God but I cannot understand when someone says that scripture says something different in such instances as John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever BELIEVETH SHOULD NOT PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE. Like I say I can understand how someone cannot grasp that but just because you can't don't change the meaning(as clear as it is) to mean what you think it might mean.

I don't understand algebra but I don't go around saying that it isn't true and the answer should be thus and thus. I trust those that say the answer is this because I cannot comprehend. And more important instead of trying to change things so that I can understand I acknowledge that I do not understand.

Truth is only truth if you can speak about the truth you know and I have not seen this happen just like Janice says. When we ask questions it's like we aren't worthy of an answer, but the truth is it cannot be given.

Carol
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A devotional for this week before Easter.

"The precious blood of Christ."-1 Peter 1:19

Standing at the foot of the cross, we see hands, and feet, and side, all distilling crimson streams of precious blood. It is "precious" because of its redeeming and atoning efficacy. By it the sins of Christ's people are atoned for; they are redeemed from under the law; they are reconciled to God, made one with Him. Christ's blood is also "precious" in its cleansing power; it "cleanseth from all sin." "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." Through Jesus' blood there is not a spot left upon any believer, no wrinkle nor any such thing remains. O precious blood, which makes us clean, removing the stains of abundant iniquity, and permitting us to stand accepted in the Beloved, notwithstanding the many ways in which we have rebelled against our God. The blood of Christ is likewise "precious" in its preserving power. We are safe from the destroying angel under the sprinkled blood. Remember it is God's seeing the blood which is the true reason for our being spared. Here is comfort for us when the eye of faith is dim, for God's eye is still the same. The blood of Christ is "precious" also in its sanctifying influence. The same blood which justifies by taking away sin, does in its after-action, quicken the new nature and lead it onward to subdue sin and to follow out the commands of God. There is no motive for holiness so great as that which streams from the veins of Jesus. And "precious," unspeakably precious, is this blood, because it has an overcoming power. It is written, "They overcame through the blood of the Lamb." How could they do otherwise? He who fights with the precious blood of Jesus, fights with a weapon which cannot know defeat. The blood of Jesus! sin dies at its presence, death ceases to be death: heaven's gates are opened. The blood of Jesus! we shall march on, conquering and to conquer, so long as we can trust its power!

I know that this doesn't exactly answer the question about the cross and its being a tree but I will add this famous saying here: "A rose by any other name still smells just as sweet, amen?" Oh, that blessed ROSE OF SHARON that willingly gave his life for ALL who accept it in childlike FAITH, no law keeping in the world will ever do for us what Jesus did that day.

I love talking about various discussions concerning any given Bible topic and will be happy to look up all the terms of tree and cross for you but I will give you some valuable resources that someone passed along to me here in the forum and that is this great web site: www.blueletterbible.com and is complete with many concordances and references, both audio and typed information at the click of a button. Sorry I forget who to thank here for giving it but thanks again, the blueletterbible site is where I cut and paste most of the scriptures that I have placed in my posts.

Let me end this post and get back to what I started on my unity thread with the errors taught by various cults.

God bless,

Janice
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, As Another_Carol says, it's a smokescreen. There are two different words used in the New Testament for the instrument on which Jesus died.

The most common word found in the NT is the greek word stauros (stow-ros') which means:

cross; ï 1) an upright stake, esp. a pointed one 2) a cross 2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves 2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent

Archaeology has shown that the cross was developed by the Romans one or two hundred years or so (I can't remember exactly) before the time of Christ. It often had a cross beam that was affixed after the criminal carried the two beams up the to the place of crucifixion.

The other word found in the New Testament is the greek word xulon (xoo'-lon), which means:

tree, staff, wood, stocks; ï 1) wood 1a) that which is made of wood 1a1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross 1a2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs) a fetter, or shackle for the feet 1a4) a cudgel, stick, staff 2) a tree

The cross was made from the wood of a tree, therefore it is accurate to say that Jesus was crucified on a tree. It would be accurate to translate xulon as "stocks", but it would be out of harmony with the rest of the NT. Jesus was crucified, he wasn't put in stocks. The cross has been shown to be accurate historically by archaeological discoveries. Sure, some stakes have been found, where criminals were crucified with their arms straight up over their heads, however, the primary purpose of the cross was not only for death, it was for torture. A man crucified with his arms stretched out to the sides must have been in much more excruciating pain and drowning (from the fluid that filled the lungs) than if the arms were straight up. (Although, I must admit, if I was crucified with my arms straight up, it would be more than I could handle.) And don't forget, Peter was crucified upside down.

Smokescreen. Let the Holy Spirit blow the smoke away so that the real issues are apparent. Beware, Satan fights fire with fire. The Holy Spirit fights fire with water.

Steve
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, the Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to call the cross a cross; they call it a torture stake. Normally I would say such terms are not important, but when non-Christian groups take a strong stand about accepted Christians terms and concepts, that usually symbolizes a hidden heresy.

It is a historical fact that the Romans used crosses to execute heinous criminals. The fact that the Greek may literally mean "tree" does not make "cross" untrue. After all, what IS a cross made from? Jesus was crucified along with two other men, and Roman soldiers did all three crucifixions.

Speakeasy, do not let yourself get drawn into arguments about words and terms. The purpose of these arguments such as "tree" not being "cross" is to create doubt about the authenticity of Christian teaching and doctrine. People who make these arguments will also argue that other, more important truths are also not Biblical, and they will play word games to confuse you.

The Bible is clear just as it is written, and the Holy Spirit will make its truths clear to you. When people argue about words and meanings instead of focussing on Jesus, they are probably preaching what Paul called "another gospel", or they are discounting the saving power of Jesus altogether. I really urge you, Speakeasy, not to engage in these kinds of discussions. When people insist on talking about these things instead of about the gospel, they usually do not want to know the truth. It is useless to talk to them.

You can, however, pray for them, and that is the most powerful thing you can do anyway!

Colleen
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen is absolutely right. The only reason these people want argue about these things is to cast doubt on the Truth of Christianity. Once you begin to let these little items rattle around in your head, all sorts of things start coming loose.

Steve
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 5:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't go out of my way in debating these people about these type of questions. I have questions that I have allways wanted input from by christians that are spirit filled. I can't go to anybody but this forum to get these type of questions anserwed. I can get these on the net but most are filled with propaganda from the Cults and sects. NOBODY in the churchs ever want a question or questions like this. They think you are ready to argue or to question there relationship with Jesus. I do not have a church yet to call home. It has been 4 years since I left 2 cults and not many places take in people like me. After you start asking questions and expressing what you know about subjects. You get quickly cut off and do not get asked again or you get left out on many of the functions off that group! This forum and a friend that I have over the net I have never even met in person Is the only people I have to talk about these things.

What about the Day that Jesus died on? what about the Day that he rose on? Could the day he rose on be Saturday? Mary came to the tomb early on Sunday and the Stone was rolled away. But could have the stone been rolled away before Sunday? Or again does this matter in anyway? I doubt that it does. I hope that you will give me a chance to ask these type of questions. Why does no church like for you to ask these questions openly. They usually want you to ask these questions in on office or to the Pastor that never has time for small questions. I have many other questions on topics of the trinity,Rapture and the list goes on and on. BUT the one thing that I do not have questions about is Am I SAVED?

Thanks for all of your time!
speakeasy
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Speakeasy! I'm so sorry you're having a hard time finding a church home. Just one quick comment based on your above post. Having worked as a church secretary for a number of years, I can tell you the reason many pastors and sincere Christians shy away from these questions is because the majority of the time they are not directed to them from people such as yourself. Most of the time they are asked by people that believe it a certain way and just want to argue and defend their belief, come hell or high water!!! I've seen it over and over, and cannot even remember anyone asking questions like those from someone who was truly open minded and was sincerely searching or seeking reassurance. Anyway, don't know if that helps or not, but I'm glad you have this forum to help you find answers to your questions (glad for me too!!!) Love and prayers to all, Carol #2
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also understand Carol #2. But I have many many sincere questions. I don't need all the ansewres and I don't need them now. But I guess I am getting a little tired of being told I am wrong and of the devil. If I even ask these questions. But if anybody can help please send me to a web site or email me. speakeasyarchive@yahoo.com
thanks
Wally
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, first of all, in the big picture, these questions really probably aren't important. If, howevever, you've been taught that these traditions might not be biblical (I suspect your Messianic Jewish friends might have said some of these traditions are not biblical), then you do need to know the answers in order to have faith in the Bible.

John 19:14 and also John 19:42 establish Friday, the Jewish day of Preparation, as the day Jesus died.

Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20 all record the discovery of Jesus' resurrection on the first day of the week, or Sunday. While none of them literally state the time of his rising (during the night? just before daybreak? etc.) it's clear from the Biblical accounts that for all practical purposes, the resurrection was a Sunday event. Remember, the Jews counted the days from Sundown to Sundown. That's why Friday evening is the beginning of Sabbath, and why Sabbath is over at sundown Saturday evening. According to Jewish reckoning, even if he rose in the middle of the night, that was considered to be on Sunday.

Further, Jesus himself did not appear to anyone until early Sunday. First he appeared to the women at the tomb right after daybreak on Sunday, then to Mary Magdalene, then to the two travelers on the road to Emmaus (about midday on Sunday), during Sunday he appeared to Peter in Jerusalem, and that evening he appeared to the other ten disciples in the upper room.

The issue of the exact time he rose is really a moot point. Further, tradition from the earliest times established his resurrection on Sunday. Matthew records a violent earthquake which happened during which an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone, and the people in Jerusalem, including the apostles, would have known when that earthquake happened. Likewise the Romans would have known, including the guards at the tomb.

Again, Wally, don't let these small details distract you from the glory of the gospel! Praise God you have assurance of your posiition in Christ and a new understanding of Jesus' shed blood!

Colleen
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, I love these discussions that just got added to this thread, they are some great insightful studies by everyone. I just went to check my e-mail and found this wonderful devotional for today to top it ALL off with. Just listen to this:


Faith's Checkbook by C.H. Spurgeon
Thursday April 17, 2003
http://bible.christiansunite.com/devotionals.shtml

Enemies at Peace

When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. (Proverbs 16:7)

I must see that my ways please the Lord. Even then I shall have enemies; and, perhaps, all the more certainly because I endeavor to do that which is right. But what a promise this is! The Lord will make the wrath of man to praise Him and abate it so that it shall not distress me.

He can constrain an enemy to desist from harming me, even though he has a mind to do so. This He did with Laban, who pursued Jacob but did not dare to touch him. Or He can subdue the wrath of the enemy and make him friendly, as He did with Esau, who met Jacob in a brotherly manner, though Jacob had dreaded that he would smite him and his family with the sword. The Lord can also convert a furious adversary into a brother in Christ and a fellow worker, as He did with Saul of Tarsus. Oh, that He would do this in every case where a persecuting spirit appears!

Happy is the man whose enemies are made to be to him what the lions were to Daniel in the den, quiet and companionable! When I meet death, who is called the last enemy, I pray that I may be at peace. Only let my great care be to please the Lord in all things. Oh, for faith and holiness; for these are a pleasure unto the Most High!

Be sure to check out our other devotionals
http://bible.christiansunite.com/devotionals.shtml
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would just add to the thread tonight by saying that if anyone is seriously looking to find a church home, please keep in mind that most denominations have what they call the "fundamentals" of their faith and should be checked out in great detail especially with much prayer and soul-searching and above all else-a sensitive spirit that listens for direction from the indwelling Holy Spirit. I could tell you to go to a search engine and key in different denominations such as Baptists, Methodist, etc. and you could probably find many web sites but keep in mind too that they're over 20 different branches of Baptists and probably different strands of Methodists as well, didn't I hear some of you even mention that they had different branches of SDAs now? Anyway, just make your search for a church a serious matter of prayer.

What is that about the still small voice? Let me see if I can find it right quick and paste it here, yes, I found it: 1Ki 19:11 & 12 says: And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake:
12-And after the earthquake a fire; [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. (Be still and listen for that "still small voice" of God speaking to your heart, and I will add that I am equally happy that I happened upon this web site, I love you all, even when we don't always agree and sometimes even butt heads, amen?

If you haven't seen my reference to the "Discovery Series" books available online, you can find a very helpful booklet there too called "How To Recognize A Good Church". I believe it is www.discoveryseries.com but if not, you can search for it with Google or some other engine, the booklet simply gives you the basic truths that you want to look for in any church, such as a belief in the Holy Trinity, the virgin birth, the Bible as God's Holy and infallible word, etc. that should be present in any church worth it's salt, amen?

I took my booklet with me about the errors on doctrines, to Alabama and was going over some of the rest of the stuff that I was going to post and could not believe how absurd some of those cults could get, and surprisingly, Jehovah's Witnesses appeared to be very much in alignment with the teachings of SDAs. The similarities are theses: extra books/writings to "add to and take away from" the word of God (a really big no-no with God, by the way). It is one thing to "expound" like we do here in the forum but quiet another to actually change the word of God and add to it or change it. Also, they seem to elevate a prophet, Joseph Smith, while the SDAs elevate E.G. White. They also have the same opinions concerning "soul-sleep" and the doctrine of annihilation instead of "eternal hell" like most Christian groups preach about.

I want to continue tomorrow if I have time and finish up the thread on what these cults teach about salvation, redemption, and such and apologize for not taking time to finish tonight. I don't feel too well at the moment, guess I ate too much or something, I think I need an Alka-Seltzer, ha, ha.

Good night for now,
Janice
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, you're right about the Jehovah's Witnesses, Janice, except that the Mormons' prophet is Joseph Smith. The Jehovah's Witnesses were started by a man named Charles Taze Russell, and he's resonsible for most of their bizarre doctrines and writings.

Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

You stated this in part:

"NOBODY in the churchs ever want a question or questions like this. They think you are ready to argue or to question there relationship with Jesus. I do not have a church yet to call home. It has been 4 years since I left 2 cults and not many places take in people like me. After you start asking questions and expressing what you know about subjects. You get quickly cut off and do not get asked again or you get left out on many of the functions off that group!"

This is a true statement as this is my experience as well. Seems like people get set in their ways and to even suggest a conversation over matters like these, that both you and I have had questions on, is like committing blasphemy.

Like you, Speakeasy, I come from a background that has the Jewish Customs and find that I STILL have many many questions that will be left unanswered by the Church Pastors or the people that attend the Church.

Not to say anything negative about the above posts, but there are some of us out here that KNOW THE GOSPEL NOW.......BUT...we still want answers to many many questions that plague us.

And to be put off by having people tell us, "well, don't worry about those questions" or "what does it matter now that you know the Gospel?" is like telling us to just remain silent unless it suits the ears of the "churchgoers."

Sorry, that's my opinion and my experience and is spoken in truth.

Here it is, another Easter coming and I've never in my life been to a Church Service to even know what is done on this Easter deal.

Yes, I know it represents the resurrection.....HOWEVER, when I see colored eggs and little bunny rabbits, my brain says "HUH?" I find myself scratching my head as to why in the world does the Church have colored eggs and bunny rabbits to represent the Resurrection.

Can I get an answer? No.

So, I'll be as bold as I ought, being your sister in Christ and ask "what do colored eggs and bunny rabbits have to do with Easter?" What goes on in a Church service during Easter that is different than any other worship day?

What about us who were taught that these colored eggs and bunny rabbits are pagan? Do we try to forget our entire lives and ignore these nagging questions and cannot observe these holidays due to our conscious? Who can we ask If not the Church?

Same goes for Christmas, Valentines day, Halloween and others. Who can we ask and how do we know what is really really right and not "traditions of men?"

Our conscious cannot observe these and remain without guilt without some answer.

These and many other questions, like the "cross" or "saluting the flag"......see, these things I was raised with all my life and even when I did run away from God, did not celebrate any of these holidays due to conscious.

Here I'm over here once again, thinking Passover, Menorah, getting rid of the leaven......my brain too, like Speakeasy, has been indoctrinated and we DESERVE REAL ANSWERS NOT DISMISSALS.

This is my opinion and nobody has to like it but we all have been decieved in one way or another and we all have been indoctrinated into different sets of beliefs that we are still trying to shed.

I figure that if we are indeed "brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus" then we are all equal and have the right to have these questions answered, if not in the Churches (usually due to closed minds), then at least on this forum where others really do understand how indoctrination can emcompass us for years and it takes help and time to shed these fears. The help comes from people, not osmosis.

I Have been a Christian since 1999 and yet here I stand, with questions about this Easter vs Passover. Should I do neither? I have never done Easter (except being born on it) and I do not have Passover anymore. So what do we do, us who have these, what others call, "unimportant questions?"

There is no such thing as an unimportant question.

Thanks and Blessings from one who understands Speakeasy and his questions. Also I understand too well how frustrating it is to get no answers or to be told that the question is unimportant.

your sister IN Christ Jesus of Nazareth.

Denise Gilmore
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I was just noticing that I did indeed put down the wrong prophet in my post. While I am apologizing for the error, I will go ahead and mention that what I posted was not exactly a "word-per-word" copy of "The Spirit Of Truth And The Spirit Of Error" by Keith L. Brooks. I was trying to break his pamphlet down in sections that wouldn't make for such long posts and the titles that I placed on each section was my own making, an example would be ERRORS TAUGHT BY.....ABOUT GOD, ABOUT CHRIST, ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT, ETC....As a matter of fact a lot of what these various cults taught was exactly what the Bible said "word-per-word" but they turned around, like EGW, and gave their own "private" interpretation of what God was saying. So in effect, when Bible verses were quoted, it was not an error in the word but rather an error was made in the interpretation, so, again I am sorry if I gave out the wrong information.

For anyone interested too, I noticed that www.blueletterbible.org has a study devoted to finding out more about the false teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I just haven't had time to study it out yet.

I will be trying to finish up with this booklet tonight with the discussions on Sin, Redemption, Salvation, and what they teach about Retribution. I did want to make mention too that the main reason that I didn't take time to post all of the references was because this booklet that I have is printed in about 6.0 font which makes it very hard to read and is printed on both the front and back and folds out to be almost four-feet wide and one-foot long in size, and the other reason was, like I said, who really wants to waste time studying false doctrines when we are commanded to study THE word? I just that sounds kind of like double-talk, doesn't it? Seeing as how I have taken all week to post this junk, huh?

I just felt that it was necessary to expose Satan in all of his little trick deceptions that he has managed to slip in amongst us and will get on with other topics after I finish this section of my studies.

Janice
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WORD OF GOD TEACHES THIS CONCERNING SIN
There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (I John 1:8)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4)
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death (I John 5:17)
WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN (ROMANS 14:23)
WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN (ROMANS 14:23)
WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN (ROMANS 14:23)
(I've always heard, the third time's the charm.)
If there is anyone reading this that hasn't gotten it by the third time, just think of it this way, nonbelief in the simplicity of the gospel, which is simply to be "saved by grace through faith", IS CONSIDERED TO BE SINNING!!!!!
Therefore, to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF US SHOULD STOP AT THIS POINT AND DO INTERCESSORY PRAYER FOR ANYONE WHO MAY CHANCE TO READ THESE WORDS, THAT THEIR DARKENED SOUL MAY BE ENLIGHTENED, AMEN? IT IS OUR DUTY, AS WELL AS OUR PRIVILIEGE TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO A LOST AND DYING WORLD. What does this text teach?
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (Reprove what, rebuke who, exhort/preach/teach while practicing patience and using SOUND doctrine) So, let's get on with this thread and look at the following information given by Keith L. Brooks and Irvine Robertson.

CHRISTIAN SCIENCE--DOCTRINES ON SIN
Here also is found the cardinal point in Christian Science, that matter and evil (including all inharmony, sin, disease, and death) are UNREAL. (Misc. Writings,p.27)
Man is incapable of sin, sickness, and death (SH, 475:28)
The real man cannot depart from holiness (SH, 475:29)
Evil is UNREAL (SH, 339-910)
The only reality of sin, sickness, or death is the awful fact that unrealities seem real to human, erring belief, until God strips off their disguise (SH)
The opposite of Truth, called error, sin, sickness, disease, death, is the false testimony of false material sense, of mind in matter (SH...)

SPIRITUALISM/WITCHCRAFT
Man never had a fall.
Whatever is, is right. Evil does not exist. Evil is good. No matter what man's path may be, good or bad, it is the path of divine ordination and destiny. (Taken from the book "Whatever Is, Is Right")
A lie is the truth intrinsically: it holds a lawful place in creation; it is a necessity. (From, get this title folks, The True Light, p.162)
We believe in intelligent and ignorant spirits. No being is naturally BAD--evil always originates in ignorance. (Maybe that is true, but only to a point, amen?)
Death is not a violent result of sin. It was neither friend nor enemy. It is a part of the DIVINE purpose. (SM 1940)

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS--CONCERNING SIN
Sin is a falling short of God's mark of perfection, transgression of His righteous law.
Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God's plainly stated law.
At death, Adam was to return to the dust, a return to non-existence (Kind of sounds like SDA doctrine, doesn't it?) This was one of those things that I was talking about in my post last night.
No descendant of Adam is free from sin; all inherit it from first man (This is Biblical truth)
All are born in sin (imperfect, with wayward tendencies) Yes, we all agree to the first part, we are born in sin.
Adam brought death not only upon himself, but also upon all the race descended from him. (Amen again)
Perfect human life was lost with its rights and earthly prospects. (We agree with this teaching too)

ARMSTRONGISM--TOPIC "SIN"
In literally hundreds of places in your New Testament, Jesus Christ and His inspired apostles teach absolute obedience to all ten of the Ten Commandments. (Sound familiar?)
We must repent of sin, repent of transgressing God's law, which means turning from disobedience as a prior condition to receiving God's free gift. (Gee, this sentence starts off sounding right, doesn't it, but what happened?) What's that about it being a PRIOR CONDITION to receiving God's gift?
Denise, please know that I am ONLY repeating what these nuts teach, so, don't hate me, please, when you read what they have to teach concerning SICKNESS, here goes: Sickness is ONLY the penalty of physical transgressioin, and whenever one is sick, he is paying that penalty. Healing is nothing more or less than the forgiveness of sin. God is the only real physician! Scripture labels other modes of healing as being idolatry. Medicine has a PAGAN origin. (This crap is taken from a book titled "Does God Heal Today?" I want to make mention here of what Jesus spoke when he healed one young man. Read what it says in John 9:3--Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I believe this one verse of scripture is quiet enough to test that spirit to see if it be of God or of Satan, amen? Getting on to the next false teachers.

MORMONISM-CONCERNING SIN (If you all thought that was ridiculous and right in line with that old devil, the liar that appears like an angel, is teaching through Mormonism that Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have joy. (Go figure that one out, and keep reading, there's more of where that came from.) Adam DELIBERATELY (No deception as the WORD teaches) and WISELY (duh!) chose to touch the forbidden tree and partook of the fruit. Adam cried, "Because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have JOY". (This little tidbit is from the book "Pearl Of Great Price" and is definitely not the same book that I read with that same title, amen!!!)
We ought to consider the fall of our first parents as one of the great steps to eternal exaltation and HAPPINESS. (From the Mormon Catechism)
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

EXCUSE ME FOLKS WHILE I MAKE THE OBSERVATION OF A DOUBLE-MINDED THOUGHT PATTERN, DID WE OR DID WE NOT JUST READ THAT ADAM FREELY ATE THAT FORBIDDEN FRUIT SO THAT ALL OF US WOULD KNOW JOY? (ARE WE SUPPOSED TO USE THE WORDS JOY AND SIN INTERCHANGEABLY NOW?)

I know that it is in the Bible that there was pleasure in sin for a season (when speaking of Moses) but I will testify that my sins, even though they may have felt good at the time, regardless of WHAT specific sin I am in reference too, I am living proof that you can be ASSURED that your sins WILL FIND YOU OUT, there is no hiding place from God and we do REAP WHAT WE SOW, amen?

I still have Eastern Mysticism, The Way International, Unity, and the Unification Church comments about SIN but am running down fast tonight. Think I may have to call it quits for now.

I did want to mention though in closing, that I heard another great "Focus On The Family" this morning and you can visit www.family.org for the talk. The reason I wanted to mention it is to make this point. In the middle of his talk, he commented something about Jesus and 12,00 years ago,I got caught up in trying to figure out how he derived at that number, he made an obvious slip (in my opinion) but it just proved the subtleness that the devil uses to try to rob us of hearing the truth. I got so caught up in thinking about his slip of the tongue that I almost lost the message by being distracted. Doesn't the Bible say that we are not suppose to argue over "trivial" things? Well, my point is that had I not rebuked the devil in my own thoughts, I wouldn't have gotten the blessing that the Lord had prepared for me, and I think this is what happens to a lot of people, they get so caught up in trying to prove us WRONG that they let a glimmer of truth slide right on by them. The bottom line is that I am not perfect, neither is any person this side of glory, so, if we were to wait on perfection in mankind before we decided to heed their messages of truth, we would all die and go to hell while knitpicking over the little things while missing the big picture. We should strive to live better than the "religious" crowds that strain at gnats to swallow camels, amen? We are saved by grace+nothing, and that is the simplicity of the gospel, amen and amen. I will get back this weekend with some lessons concerning HUMILITY, it certainly was a good study and well worth repeating.

Have a good night.
Janice
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, My personal opinion is that Easter bunnies and egg hunts have about as much place in God's business and sweet old St. Nicholas, oh well, is that another can of worms opened up to smell or what? I guess I could start up a thread on it if you want me too. I do have a lot to bring to light about how much paganism has infiltrated the church, let me know what you think and we can certainly discuss it here, right?

Janice

P.S.--I agree with Colleen and the others though that it is a smoke screen of sorts that keeps our minds occupied on trivial things while the truth goes without enlightenment in many instances. Like I said before, and you all know me by now, I have a lot of opinion and love to give it, sorry if I lack tack in many cases but when God knows my heart and encourages me with his blessings that I receive whenever I get your words of encouragement, well, we all must be doing something right here because the old devil surely wants us to be at odds with one another, or is that just my imagination?

We are, as I have had it pointed out to me, suppose to be rebuking and correcting but we also have instructions on how to go about it too, and when we get up in arms with one another, then we certainly give two points to the devil's team, don't we?

God forbid if any of you want to take that as a form of gossip that needs some extra rebuking too. If all of this paints me to be a hypocrite, then all I can say is that I would rather appear to be such here and now and worship with fellow hypocrites for a few hours a week than to think of spending eternity in hell with a whole room full of them, right?

God bless you all, and pray for this hypocrite, I am not ashamed to say I am certainly in need of it.

Janice
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wally, I will say this before closing down for the night. My college instructor once told me that the only foolish question was the one that didn't get asked, amen? Go ahead, ASK!!! Whatever it is you want to know, we have many that visit FAF and can give you endless resources to study. I can tell you that no one comes here by mistake!! God gives us blessings as me comfort one another and live in childlike faith while bearing one another's burdens, you have come to a good place or should I say that you were led here?

Janice
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

I would like you (since you offered) to do a study on paganism entering the Church. I'm having a real hard time every year with holidays. Nomatter how much I get on here and post things like "Merry Christmas" or something like that.

Usually that is me really really trying to observe these things but in the end, have a terrible knowledge as to the rightness or wrongness of observing them.

I can say, however, that my conscious bothers me every time and so I've chosen not to celebrate as they are celebrated in this world, and this includes the Church in this situation because they are celebrated the same way.

But instead, I always think on Jesus Christ of Nazareth and do an entire study of His Birth, His Life, His Death and His Resurrection.

These things I'm always grateful for but my conscious will not allow me to go buy gifts, wrap them, hand them out and shout "Merry Christmas" anymore. Even though I did try very hard to conform to the world er I mean Church.

I have to chuckle about now because I even remember trying so hard that I started a thread on here a few years back titled "Happy Christmas Everybody!" I was used to saying Happy Hannakuh or Happy Sabbath so it naturally followed that I would say "Happy Christmas."

Don't get me wrong. I'm so grateful to God for sending His Son Jesus Christ to fulfill the Law, Die in my place thereby reconciling me to God, and Resurrecting so that I shall have eternal life and see Him as He is, that there are no words to describe how thankful I am to God. Because I am quite the sinner and He came to save not the righteous but the sinners. Thank GOD!!

Still, in matters like this, should we go by the verse in the Bible that says something about not judging regarding feast days, new moon celebrations et-cetera and thus we have a free concious?

Although these feast days, and new moon celebrations are talking about, I believe, Jewish Customs and Feasts ordained in the O.T. (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Why do Churches have a fear of Halloween? I'd really like this question answered. Is it superstition? And if it is, then shouldn't this same superstition fall into the other Holidays since they all started out with baals or other gods.

And should we think upon them as some do certain denominations, i.e., since they started out with paganism, we should avoid them completely now. Something to that effect?

Or do we pretend that colored eggs and bunnies didn't come from pagan roots and add a little Christianity to it, and voila! It's a Christian Holiday!

What is the difference between Christmas, Easter, Halloween if they all started out with pagan roots and how does the Church decide which ones to celebrate and what ones they shouldn't celebrate?

That last question is a very good question if you ask me. Pagan roots are pagan roots right? Either don't celebrate any of them or celebrate all of them but how is it that the "Church" has made this decision?? That's my main question that I'd like to see addressed.

And is there any Scripture that can help us out?

What do you make of Jeremiah 10:1-5? What is that describing to you?

I hope that all made sense ::chuckle:: brain on overload tonight methinks.

God Bless and thanks Janice,

your sister In Christ Jesus of Nazareth.

Denise
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janice,

I need to add one more thing just so I'm not being misunderstood. For me, this isn't a smoke screen. For me, it is something I deal with every year, every holiday. And my conscious needs to have some peace in this matter.

The Gospel is the most important thing in my life! However, I don't want to be Worshipping God of Heaven and worhshipping of baal at the same time. This is what I worry about.

Even though I realize there is only ONE GOD, He is a Jealous God and will not allow us to compromise. Amen?

I know in Scripture how Paul is talking about food and when someone invites us over for a meal to eat without conscious sake. However, IF that person tells us that they sacrificed it to "another god" that they believe in, even if we know there is no other god but God of Heaven, then we are not to eat it for THEIR CONSCIOUS sake.

So, my conscious needs to know the rightness and wrongness of these holidays called Christmas (which celebrates Jesus Christs' birth), Easter (which celebrates Jesus Christs' death). But we also know that they do infact have pagan roots too, so what do we do??

As to the Valentines and others, I don't celebrate them either. All because of their origins by the way.

Am I wrong?? Am I worrying for nothing do you think? I'd really like to have someone answer me with honesty and research rather than answer me with their accustomed "traditional" thinking.

Does that make sense and have you ever had anyone else ask you about these things or is this just me?

Yipes...what a scary thought...that I'm the only Christian who thinks about this stuff.

Anyway, thanks and God Bless.

Denise, who is looking forward to this study. :)
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

X ?`you're not the only one who has these questions. The thing that has made holidays "feel" right to me is realizing that Jesus came and redeemed not just me but the world. The cross itself was a symbol of evil. It belonged to the pagan, hated, oppressing Romans, and it stood for nothing good. Jesus literally died on it, and his death and victory transformed it into a symbol of salvation and grace. No God-fearing person would have tolerated a cross in their lives before Jesus redeemed even that pagan symbol and imbued it with new meaning.

It's true that now I am drawn to the relgious symbols of Christmas and Easter instead of the "pagan" ones, but I believe that in the new covenant, when we do everything including celebrate holidays unto the Lord, there is no more unclean thing. Paul said that to him, the idols of the Greek pagans were nothing. To those who had come out of that paganism, however, he admonished that they not eat meat offered to those idols. If a symbol of a holiday makes you drawn into old habits that lead you away from Christ, then by all means, avoid them.

If, however, they do not draw you away and you have no dark or "evil" associations with them, then enjoy your freedom in Christ!

For me, observing the Sabbath on Saturday is something I need to avoid for the same reasons the pagans avoided eating meat offered to idols. For many Christians, however, such observance does not make them remember old patterns and habits.

Valentine's Day, for me, is pure delight. I have not evil or dark associations with it, and it does nothing to draw me away from Christ. It is a time of warmth and appreciation, and it very much meshes with my relationshipwith Jesus.

I know that paganism has seeped into almost all our holidays, especially our religious ones. But in Christ nothing is unclean; He has removed the guilt and claim of sin, and we are one with him. It's not what we eat (or the way we observe holy days!) that makes us unclean. It is what comes out of our mouths and hearts that makes us unclean! And the things that are in our hearts make even our holidays "clean" or "unclean".

Praise Jesus for New Life!

Colleen

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