| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I thought we should group all of my ignorance into one subject since I ask so many elementary questions I should have figured out by now!  So, here goes one: What is the state of the dead of the people before Christ's resurrection? And-as if that's a way to start a sentence-what is the point of judgement day if one goes to heaven or hell at death? For the record, my hair is black but many say I have blonde roots. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
you are so funny sabra! i just love reading your posts. don't be so hard on yourself, i am always impressed with your intelligence - you are one of those who humble me into staying silent so often, talk about feeling elementary! you sound very well read, and seem to study the Bible in-depth, i feel so much more ignorant than anyone on this forum! i won't let it bother me though, i know we're all different, with different gifts, different levels of intelligence, etc. i just continue to enjoy this forum, and appreciate the support it gives me. love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
I have been told that those who died, as believers, before the ressurection of Christ were in a place referred to as Abrams bosom or the 2nd heaven. The place were God resides is the 3rd heaven. You are correct, there is no point of a Judgement Day if you are already in heaven or hell. The day of judgement does not refer to whether we are saved or unsaved--rather it refers to rewards. Notice that all references to judgement day never refer to sins---but deeds. Even the unbelievers are not judged on the basis of sins, they are judged on the basis of their good works. (The day of judgement will be the final proof that human good does not equal the divine righteousness that the perfection of God requires). All the deeds that are produced under divine viewpoint/under the power of the Holy Spirit will be rewarded. All other deeds which are produced from human good will be burned up. 1 Cor. 3:10-13--human good (wood,hay and stubble) is consumed. If what he built survives (gold,silver,costly stones) he will be rewarded. If it is burned up (wood,hay,stubble)he will suffer loss but he himself will be saved. This is the judgement of the believer. Rev. 20:15----Judgement of the unbeliever (Sins are never mentioned in this passage.) The unbeliever is judged on the basis of human good--many will stand before God thinking that "what they did" made them good enough to be saved. They will soon find that all the wonderful 1,945,874 things they did on earth that were so impressive to them and to others equals "minus-righteousness" when compared to the perfect righteousness required to fellowship with God. After the examination of their deeds where they will proven to be lacking perfect righteousness the Book of Life will be opened and their name will be conspiciously absent because they never accepted Christ as their Savior and their names were never written into the Book of Life. Believers will be rewarded for the accumulation of deeds that were produced under divine power. At those times in your life when the Holy Spirit was working through you--those moments will receive rewards. Hope this helps.... Lori | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Lori, 3rd heaven? Well, as you can see Carol, I am not studying in the right place evidently. I understand that the righteous are judged by their good works since their sins are forgotten but I didn't think that about the lost. hmmmmmm 3rd heaven sort of sounds like pergatory. I guess I need to study that some more. A girl who writes me quite often and who has "seen the light" and left the SDA church recently was asking me about the state of the dead and quite frankly, there is a lot I don't understand. For instance, the story of King Saul talking to Isaiah, I think that's right, was he really talking to him or was it Satan? See Carol, duh...........please don't keep quiet! Your posts have blessed me, you have a lot of great input! My purpose here is to make you feel like a genius with my dumbness. HA!! Sabra | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra, there are no dumb questions. Look at the bread of life discourse in John 6, especially v. 41-58. If we are in Christ we already have eternal life. If we eat his bread, we will not die. This is because we have already passed from death to life (I John 3:14). In II Peter 1:13-14, death is compared to putting aside the tent. Your spirit, at death, will be cut free from the confines of your body to have an uncluttered intimacy with Him. No wonder we are told that the death of one of His children is precious in His sight. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Lydell, I think I have the understanding of the believers who die in Christ figured out, it was those under the law that I am unsure of. We get eternal life by accepting Jesus and I know those who had faith before the cross will have it too I just didn't know about their state before the ressurection. The Bible tells us that some were translated, does that mean their physical body? If not, then it means their soul and then where are the other souls? I feel like I'm making no sense. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
My understanding of the "Heavens" has nothing to do with what I understand the term purgatory to mean. Of course, my definition of purgatory and yours may be different. *My definition of purgatory: a temporary abode of the dead; a place they reside because their fate as yet not been determined; a place they can be released from by the prayers of others on their behalf and then sent on to heaven. Is that something like what your definition is?? Paul speaks about the third heaven in 2 Cor. 12:2, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven." The Greek word translated third heaven means abode of God. About sins: I grew up learning that if you made the decision to accept Christ and you did finally make it to heaven then Satan would pay the consequences for all your sins. If you didn't make it to heaven....well, then, you would pay the price. This idea clearly goes against the gospel. Why would the unbeliever be judged for his sins??? The Bible say that Christ died for the "sins of the world"!! 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world". Christ died for all sins--even the unbelievers!!! Sin is not an issue anymore. The only issue is: What do you think of Jesus Christ?? Concerning Saul, that's not an easy answer! Saul was filled with terror(1 Sam. 28:5) a clear sign that he was not in fellowship with God--he had turned his mind away from God's thinking and that's why he was "in terror". Had Saul recognized his "state" and why he was in it he could have confessed his sin and regained fellowship with God, thus having the wisdom of God. Scripture says he inquired of God but he received no answer. God can't answer those who are not in fellowship with Him. Saul had closed off the communication not God. He consulted a medium. Who he asked to "bring up Samuel". Notice the womans response in vs. 12. Does this sound like the response of a woman who is accustom to "bringing up spirits"? IF she was so accustom to conjuring up spirits then why did she scream out at the top of her lungs when she saw Samuel??? Saul asked her what she saw. Her reply was "I see a spirit" The Hebrew word in this passage is Elohim--which means God. "I see "God" coming up out of the ground." Samuel prophesied the death of Saul the next day. He told him "and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." The next day Saul and his sons died in battle. Saul would be in Paradise (Abrams bosom; the second heaven) with Samuel. Personally, I think he was talking to Samuel...why else would this medium be screaming? I'm sure she had consulted the inferior quality conjurings of Satan on a regular basis---this one must have looked more real than the others!!!!! That's just my opinion..... As far as studying in the right place---I think it has less to do with that and more to do with who your pastor is. God gave certain men the gift of pastor/teacher. They are his tools for disseminating Biblical doctrines out to the rest of his sheep. I don't know whatís available to you geographically but I do know that if you are earnestly seeking the truth God will guide you to a pastor/teacher that will feed you depth of truth you desire. There are so many ministries now that have extensive tapes, etc.... YOUR pastor may not even live in the same state you live in. God provided me with an excellent Pastor/Teacher (through a tape ministry) and through his dedication to study God's word I have grown spiritually. You can't grow beyond your pastor. Your pastor can't take you to a place of spiritual growth that he hasn't achieved yet. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you haven't been studying in the right place. It may mean you haven't been interested in learning it until now or it may mean the depth of your pastors messages no longer meet your spiritual needs. I'll be happy to share with you information about the tape ministry that I belong to. My e-mail is LoriCD@excite.com | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lori, Your post was VERY interesting to me. Especially when you said: "About sins: I grew up learning that if you made the decision to accept Christ and you did finally make it to heaven then Satan would pay the consequences for all your sins. If you didn't make it to heaven....well, then, you would pay the price. This idea clearly goes against the gospel. Why would the unbeliever be judged for his sins??? The Bible say that Christ died for the "sins of the world"!!" I never thought of it that way, but you are absolutely right. That view reduces Jesus to simply a "mediator." In other words, all he did was facilitate moving the sins from us to Satan, but Satan ultimately pays the price. It definitely diminishes what Jesus did on the cross. What are the rewards you are referring to? Even in the sacrificial system, it was always the Lamb that was inspected and NEVER the people. Doesn't it then follow that when we are a believer in Christ that ONLY his completed works at the cross can be judged? I have been studying the book of 1 John this week and have come upon an amazing discovery. I do not believe sin has ever been about the things (works) that we do. It has always been about breaking relationship or putting our trust in anyone or anything other than God. That is what Eve did when she ate of the fruit. She believed Satan's lie that God was withholding something from her (sin) which was manifested by her eating of the fruit. And that is what we have ben doing ever since. Every sin has its root in unbelief--not believing that God is able to... Man continued in darkness, getting continually worse until God introduced the old covenant (the ten commandment law), which was designed to point out how much he had broken relationship with God and symbolicly send him to the cross. When Jesus came, he was the "light of the world." In other words, the ten commandments were the "lesser light" pointing to the "Greater Light," Jesus. As we stand in the presence of God, we see even more how far we have departed from God and have accepted the wisdom of the world. Once again, God's purpose is to drive us to Jesus' perfect sacrifice at the cross. That is why 1 John says that if we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet wakl in darkness, we lie. This has nothing to do with "behaviors" per say. It has to do with acknowledging ourn eed for Him. If we claim to know Him, yet continue to put our trust in everything else (like Eve did), as if nothing is wrong, obviously we have not been "exposed by the Light," and therefore are still in darkness. Once someone has seen the Light (had their condition exposed) and accepted forgiveness, they naturally exhibit a forgiving Spirit toward their brothers and sisters. If they continue to harbor ill feelings, obviously, they are still in darkness and haven't seen the Light. With that understanding, it makes a lot of sense to me why the law was fulfilled in Christ. WHat purpose would it serve? What need is there for the moon when the SON has risen? It also makes sense why Jesus was above the law--not because he kept it perfectly, but because He was the embodiment of the law. It also taes my focus COMPLETELY off the things that I do and places it just where it should be, on basking in the relationship that God attended between me and him from the very beginning. God's ultimate goal has always been that we unashamedly enter in fellowship withhim and each other. Any focus other than that is shortsighted. Sorry for the discourse, but I just had to share this. Your post helped to solidify that for me. Especially the part where you said "Christ died for all sins--even the unbelievers!!! Sin is not an issue anymore. The only issue is: What do you think of Jesus Christ?? In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
The idea that Satan bears the sins of anyone who makes it to heaven and all those who don't make it to heaven bear their own sin leaves no sins for Christ to have died for. Who else it left??? No one. It actually makes Satan out to be our Savior. That's a sickening thought, isn't it? I'm not exactly sure what your question is regarding the rewards. There are many text that say believers will receive rewards based upon certain conditions. You can key in 'reward' on Bible Gateway (I would restrict your search to NT only as these rewards are related to eternity--many of the rewards listed in the OT were related to the present time); you will find a whole collection of pertinent text that way. I know you are going to want some "documentation" for my assertation that we won't all be equal in heaven. I'll have to find my study notes on that subject. And, since we just moved into a new house that may take me a little while.......I'll try to post them soon! There is a fascinating passage that equates our eternal rewards with the rewards that were given to the military men of that time. These men were not given equal rewards. There is a passage that many use to say you can lose your salvation. It says, "they will not inherit the kingdom of God". This phrase "kingdom of God" has to do with the rewards of eternity--it has nothing to do with salvation. I'll look for my notes....... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lori, I absolutely agree with you about sin and Satan and Jesus. JESUS has taken the weight of ALL the sins of the world onto himself. The issue of rewards has been making more and more sense to me during this past year. We really are not told very much about it in specifics. 2 Cor. 3:is probably the most clear statement that the works we do as believers will be judged, and depending upon their quality (i.e., have we done the works of the Holy Spirit or our own idea of good works?) they will survive or not. The person himself will survive even if his/her works don'tóas one escaping through the flames. I mentioned a few weeks ago that I heard an interesting talk at our school's Easter chapel re: rewards. The woman said that God waits until the final judgment to judge our works and issue rewards instead of doing so upon our death because our works live after us. Rev. 11:13: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now onÖthey will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." Her example was Dr. J. Vernon McGee. He is now dead, but people continue to listen to his broadcasts and read his commentaries. His influence is continuing after his death. Ditto for men such as Oswald Chambers, Martin Luther, etc. The results of their works that continue after their deaths will be credited to them in the judgment. The idea of delayed rewards for the reason of continuing results is a conclusion that makes sense to me. The 2 Corinthians passage does suggest that people's roles will be different in heaven, but it really doesn't explain HOW they will be different. Similarly, the Bible suggests that there will be differences in the degree of suffering in hell. For example, Jesus said in Matt. 10: 15 that if would be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for the Israelite cities which rejected Jesus personally. Also Hebrews suggests that if people who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy, how much greater must the punishment be for those who "trampled the Son of God under foot"? (see 2:2-4 and 10:28-30) The Old Testament is unclear about the exact place the souls of Godly men and women went when they died. Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man confirms the Jewish tradition of the righteous going to "Abraham's bosom" and the wicked going into suffering. Exactly how conditions might change for the wicked after the judgment, I don't know. We do know they are resurrected for the judgment. The Bible is also imprecise about the levels of heaven and what or where they might be. Lori, you're right about Paul and the third heaven. But those levels are not described in scripture, and while we can make some fairly well-educated guesses about them, we don't actually have PROOF. We will likely be surprised by things as they REALLY are! Just a comment about teachers. I do believe, as Lori suggested above, that God provides us with teachers and pastors that we need. I have no doubt that God guided us to the church where we are because we needed the sound Biblical education we're receiving there. I don't believe, however, that we're limited by our teachers' limitations necessarily. While the NT does have several comments about teachers and the necessity of teachers having integrity there are also comments reassuring us the the Holy Spirit takes responsibility for our instruction and learning. Jesus said, "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send n my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26) Hebrews 8 quotes Jeremiah's prophecy of the New Covenant. Verse 11 says, "No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." I don't see these texts teaching us that we don't need teachers! In fact, I absolutely believe that we do benefit enormously from them and that God brings them to us. But I do believe that when we are born again and are filled with the Holy Spirit, He personally teaches us the truths in scripture as we study the Bible with prayer and open hearts. Our teachers may open our eyes to certain truths which God himself may help us to understand even more clearly just by our own study and prayer, and also vice versa. I guess all I'm trying to say is this: don't be discouraged if you haven't found a good spiritual mentor yet. Ask God to bring the mentors and teachers into you life that you need, and continue to study the Bible honestly with continual prayer for the Holy Spirit's enlightenment and understanding to be in you. I think that our understanding of the Bible and our spiritual growth is limited not so much by our teachers as by our level of openness to the word of God and by our willingness (or unwillingness) to surrender ALL of our ideas and understandings to God for his sovereign reconstruction! Again, Lori, thank you for so clearly stating that Satan does NOT suffer for our sins. You're rightóthat belief is a horrendous heresy! Praising God for revealing himself to us, Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Lori and Colleen, Thanks for your comments. I have been blessed with a wonderful, spirit-filled, knowledgeable pastor and I praise God for that! Lori, I appreciate your offer on the tape ministry but I really have too much on my plate right now. I am involved in a Torah study, somewhat...mostly for witnessing purposes (man, you think the SDA's are tough!) and I listen to Joyce Meyers tapes everyday, then my own personal study,and the e-mails, whew! I'm not complaining at all, I love it! It has to be God that put this desire for knowledge in me because I sure never had it before! Seems like the more you know, the less you know. I probably wouldn't question so much except that people ask me my opinion on things I really have no opinion of. The state of the dead is the big one. Every former or studying SDA wants to know all about this subject and quite frankly, it has been an area that I'm least interested in. The next big one is salvation and I think I've got that one down. Not to change the subject, as I never do...Did anyone see the news last night about Saddam's birthday celebration and the gift that was presented to him? A gold and silver "statue" of him in an army of horses charging toward Jerusalem. Now that was freaky! Thanks all for putting up with me! Sabra | ||
| Brianglass (Brianglass) |
I've been studying the death issue lately as well. How coincidental, er, I mean providential... As an Adventist, the passages I heard quoted most often in regards to the state of the dead were from Ecclesiastes. Over and over again I hear "the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything." Eccl. 9:5. Once I decided this was my next topic of study, I knew right off the first thing I was going to have to deal with was Ecclesiastes. So I sat down and read through the book and recorded commentary for each passage that seemed pertinent to me. I've compiled my thoughts into a sort of paper on the subject of death in Ecclesiastes which can be viewed at http://death.glassbrian.com (I welcome comment on it). In short, while SDAism's view on death may have similarities to Solomon's, Solomon's view was not mature or complete and thus not a good starting point for state of the dead doctrines. As for the issue with the Medium and the spirit of Samuel, I read an interesting article by Jerry Gladson on this topic. It is entitled "Re-thinking Life after Death," and is available on Dale Ratzlaff's site at http://www.ratzlaf.com/downloads.htm Sabra, I'm with you. I was the least interested in this topic. I spent a lot of time establishing an understanding of Salvation, the law, etc. However, now that I feel relatively firmly grounded in that type of theology, I feel a need to move on to these more peripheral issues. My family is now attending a local non-denom church and while not the focus, there is a definite teaching that the dead go straight to heaven or hell when they die. Neither of us are sure what we believe on that issue and so we need to study. I told my wife it didn't really matter one way or the other, but her concern was what we would teach the kids. No doubt the question will come up. While I don't think it is salvational, kids are definitly more concrete in thier thinking and may need to be told something in this regard. I haven't established a firm position yet, but you've got to start somewhere... | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Brian, I'm going to read Ecclesiates again but when I read it last, it seemed to speak of us here in our flesh and how everything is vanity regarding our fleshly works. The verse-the dead know not anything, I thought referred to the dead in Christ, pertaining to those unsaved, unknowledgeable about God. Remember when the man wanted to go and follow Jesus but first wanted to bury a dead relative? I think the story was in Matthew. Jesus told him to let the dead bury the dead and come on with the living! Now, obviously, they weren't dead people burying dead people, but spiritually they were. I do disagree with your caution in dealing with the writings of the Old Testament. I believe that all of the scriptures are inspired by God and therefore should all be taken as such. "the living know that they will die but the dead know not anything" think about it, as christians we know that we will die but many secular beliefs go towards re-incarnation, especially the pagans of that day. Like I said, I'm going to read it again and if I come up with anything else I will let you know. This chapter was one that made me question whether or not the eternal life, passing of death into life, only pertained those after the cross. I think there is ample discussion in the New Testament that shows us we are going to be with Jesus when we die. Thanks for sharing your site! Sabra | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Brian, really if you are beginning your study by starting with the question of where do the dead go at death, you are starting at the end of the topic rather than the true beginning. May I suggest that the beginning of the topic is actually "what is the soul and spirit?" Until you get those two established in your mind, then the rest won't come together. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sabra, it sounds like you have an abundance of spiritual food!!! I've watched Joyce Meyers on several occasions; she definitely seems to have JOY in her walk with Christ. She is very inspiring. And, Sabra, the next few questions/statements are not directed at you. These are just thoughts that I had when I first began considering the state after physical death. When you believe that your body, soul and spirit lie dead in the grave; how can you simutaneously believe in ETERNAL LIFE? The concept of something being eternal implies that it has no end. If something has no end it also has no cessation at any point. If the soul and spirit die when the body dies then there is no eternal life. If the soul, spirit and body die then the promise of God which states, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall have eternal life" is a lie. The Adventist concept of eternal life really means that it's something you will receive later on--not when you believe in Christ. And you'll only receive it later IF you've been good enough. I often wondered how Paul could have welcomed death and looked upon it as a "promotion" if he believed he was going to lie dormant in the grave. Oh could this "gain" him anything??? Why did Stephen say, "Lord, receive my spirit" if the only thing receiving his spirit was going to be the earth? How did the spirits get under the altar (in Rev.) and how could they speak if they had no conscious thoughts? Why do so many false religions believe in a life after death? There must be one or Satan would have not created a counterfeit!! Have you read this passage on death in Isaiah??? "The grave below is astir to meet you at your coming" (the death of Belahazzar--the death of an unbeliever) "it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones all those who were kings over the nations. THEY WILL ALL RESPOND, THEY WILL SAY TO YOU" (this passage says that those departing this life through physical death are greeted--spoken to--by those who departed before them). "You have become like us. All your pomp has been brought down to the grave along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you." chapter 14 vs. 9-11 | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Brian, I heartily recommend the following book: TWO VIEWS OF HELL: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue by Edward Fudge and Robert Peterson. It was featured last year in an issue of Christianity Today. It is a must-read for serious Bible students. For example, Robert Peterson presents ten Scriptural footings that the Biblical doctrine of hell is based upon. Most of what we know about hell is what Jesus taught us. Matthew 25:46 is a good example of Christ's teaching on this topic. FURTHER THOUGHTS TO PONDER ABOUT HELL In what sense is a human being who dies and ceases to exist the same person as the one who is recreated by God at the resurrection? Advocates of the extinction/re-creation view do not claim to be able to prove continuity of personhood between the person who dies and the one who is raised; the best they can do is argue for the possibility of continuity of personal identity. If Jesus the God-man was annihilated and thus ceased to exist between his death and resurrection, then the Trinity only consisted of two persons during that period of time. The Trinity would have been reduced to a Binity, or the resurrection of Jesus meant the re-creation of the second person of the Trinity. In that case, the second person of the Trinity would be a CREATED BEING (like Adventists once taught for 60 years). I conclude that traditionalism, not annihilationism, correctly integrates Christology with the doctrine of hell. The truthfulness of traditionalism is confirmed by the fact that it coheres with other biblical teachings (including eschatology, intermediate state, and the nature of Christ). Annihilationism does not constitute the ultimate punishment. Rather, annihilationism would constitute the END of punishment. Truly, the ungodly in hell would like for annihilationism to be true. In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Brianglass (Brianglass) |
Sabra, I just want to clarify that I am not saying that we should be cautious in dealing with the OT. I agree that it is just as valid as the NT. What I am saying is that Ecclesiastes is a book of poetry or philosophy and that we should be careful in taking what is written therein in a completely literal sense. Poets often use what is called poetic license in thier writing and we should be sensitive to that. Lydell, you are probably right about which questions I should be asking. However, my approach is currently what might be called expository. Rather than asking a question and attempting to answer it from the Bible, I am attempting to understand what the Biblical authors believed about death. While I am essentially doing a topical study, I am attempting to use expository methods. That's not very clear, but I'm not sure how else to describe it. Lori and Dennis, this contrasting of eternal life with annihilationism is an interesting approach. I vaguely remember reading something about it before. It makes sense but is something I'll have to think about and study more. Thanks. One of the biggest reasons I started in Ecclesiastes is because I regularly get it thrown at me when talking about death with a particular individual. I readily admit to this person that I do not take a clear position on death. She continually throws Ecclesiastes at me and says how can you take that position if you read Ecclesiastes. So that was why I went there first. Now I can say to her, Ecclesiastes teaches that the dead know nothing, but it also teaches that death is the end and there is no more. Do you believe that? Obviously not and therefore you can't use Ecclesiastes to prove your annihilationist doctrine... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree with your conclusion above, Brian. The author of Ecclesiastes was not writing about a Christian or even a Jewish persective of reality. He was writing about how reality looks from a worldly point of view. Indeed, all is vanity, and there is no hope. When I was studying life after death and subsequently hell (the two did not come together for me at the same time; first I realized our spirit lives after death, and then I had to deal with hell), there were two ideas that helped me understand Jesus' teachings about eternal hell from a literal viewpoint instead of an Adventist one. The first was this: as I thought of what it meant to accept Jesus, that we are gifted with eternal life from the moment of our acceptance and that means that the essential part of us will NEVER die, I began to realize that to reject Jesus had to carry with it a consequence as significant as the reward for acceptance is significant. Only eternal punishment can "balance" the import of eternal life. If a person who rejects Jesus is annihilated, the consequence of that rejection isn't truly all that serious. None-existence is not the opposite of eternal life. It began to dawn on me that the true definition of death in an eternal sense is not the same as not knowing anything. Jesus said to one disciple, when he asked permission to bury his father before following Jesus, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:22) The "dead" are the spiritually dead. Before being brought to eternal life by the new birth, we all were the walking dead. People with their spirits separated from God are the dead. Hell, then, I began to realize, did not need to be a place where people do not have consciousness. If death is defined as being disconnected from God, that means spiritual death. Our bodies and personalities can still be conscious, even if we're not "alive" in a spiritual sense. Just as our spirits can be with Jesus after our bodies die, it makes sense that spirits disconnected from God would be some place other than with God when their bodies dieóbut they might still be conscious. I began to realize that as an Adventist my definition of death was limitedóand decidedly non-biblical. True death is not defined in the Bible as lost consciousness or existence; it is being cut off from God. Adam and Eve died when they ate the fruitóright then, not later. Their spirits died. That's why they felt shame and couldn't look God in the face. Satan had lied; "You shall not surely die." On one levelóthe physicalóhe was right, temporarily. On a deeper level of reality, he was dead wrong. They did die the moment they disobeyed. His deception had worked. The second thing that began to help me with hell was the idea that it might exist in a dimension we don't experience here, stuck as we are in time and space. What precisely it will be like is probably as inexplicable for us as is an understanding of our resurrection bodies. They will function outside time. We cannot comprehend that. Further, I've come to believe that a belief in an eternal spirit that goes either to God or somewhere else is crucial to our theology. Without an understanding that we have spirits that are dead but can be brought to life, sin is no more than a physical phenomenon. It's bad genetic coding that makes us have sinful compulsions we can't resist. If true sin, however, is a spirit out of touch with God, sin, then is much more serious. Jesus as our "example" of a perfect human, for instance, would not be helpful to us at all. Trying to imitate Jesus because he showed us how humanity can "keep the law" and be "perfect" is completely ludicrous if the real problem is a dead spirit, not just bad physical impulses. A belief in death as a spiritual phenomenon makes sin much more severe and desperate. It makes a Savior who took our place absolutely our only hope. Further, a belief in a spirit that can be alive or dead solves the old Adventist dilemma of whether or not Jesus inherited Mary's sin. He had Mary's flesh; that means he got genetic coding from her. But he was born spiritually alive. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit; he was not born dead. I no longer define death as existence or non-existence. I now define it as alive in Christ or dead in sin, disconnected from God. As Richard said one evening to me as we walked through our neighborhood, "Just think of all the dead people who are living here." I had never thought of it just like that before, and I realized in a new way why Christ-followers must be witnesses to what they've experienced. It has a completely new meaning for me now than it did as an Adventist. People will not be either in heaven or annihilated. They will be either wholly alive, eternally in Christ, or they will be eternally conscious in an agony of isolation. I can't think of anything more desperately sad. Praying that God will glorify himself through our witnesses, Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
You can still keep the Adventist claim that death is "sleep"!!! This is true!! It is like sleep. Your body is at rest when you are asleep. But there is a part of you that is still very much alive when you are asleep. There are still thoughts of consciousness(dreams,etc.)while your body is asleep. You are very much alive while your body is asleep. So it is in death, the body is indeed sleeping but the spirit is very much alive!! | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Here is another text for you to consider: I Peter 3:18b,19 "He (Christ) was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through (the Spirit) he went and preached to the spirits in prison (I have been told these are the fallen angels mentioned in Gen. 6 who were in Hades)who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built". This seems to be saying that after Christ's body was dead that the Holy Spirit transported him to Hades and he ministered to the spirits in Hades. Does anyone have any knowledge about more background on these texts??? |
