| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Did any of you watch 48 Hours last Thursday evening? The entire hour was on the Waco (aka: Wacko) group. It was extremely interesting. It has been 10 years now since that horrible event took place. The youngest of the survivours is now 10 years old. The horror stories that those people who were just children then told. Those adults in there martyered their lives and the lives of some of their children because of them falling hook, line and sinker for what Koresh told them. Do you out there in Cyberland believe that SDA's would do the same for what EGW has told them, either through her books or from what they learn in the SDA plublications or from the preachewrs on Saturday mornings? My personal opinion is that so many Adventists have such a limited understanding of anything Bibical that many just might sacrafice their lives and their loved ones livesa for the false teachings of EGW. I'm sure you could go to the 48 Hours website and read the transscripts. It was heart-breaking what those young people lived through. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I saw it and I can definately picture SDA dying for their beliefs. I was told at one point in my life that I would have to be willing to lay down the lives of my children in the time of trouble for the Sabbath (not taking the Mark of the Beast.) I recoiled at the thought and chastised myself because I thought it impossible to do (Must not be a good Christian). Oh the needless guilt and pain we bear!!!! So, I think that the paranoia and the mindset these Davidians were exihibiting could have possibly stemmed from their SDA roots. Living every day expecting to be a martyr would definately take it's toll. I think it would be interesting to do a study on the SDA. They are always doing studies to show how much healthier they are...why not study the amount of mental illness? Seriously, I think all the pessimism and worry drives people crazy eventually. I have met many, many obsessed, paranoid people hanging around SDAism. (Not to say they are all this way, we know they are not...but there are a lot of mentally off people!) Has anyone else noticed this? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes, Pheeki, I have noticed that very same thing. I have mentioned before that I know of a man who participated in conducting a study of the personalities of Adventists, and the results showed that, from the samples who participated in the study, Adventists show a striking similarity to the addictive personalities of alcoholics. I have come to believe that Adventism will ultimately either drive one to the extreme of mental illness or to the opposite extreme of unbelief and agnosticism. I realize I'm talking about extremes, but where else can you go if you try to live by EGW? If you really do believe Adventism is the truth and must be observed, you will either make yourself crazy trying to be consistent using EGW's inconsistent and troubling guidelines, or you will ultimately throw up your hands in despair because the TRUTH is impossible to live by, and nothing else can compete with the TRUTH. ( I say this because I have witnessed Adventists at both ends of this continuum.) Some Adventists do find Jesus, and I believe that those who find him have their own brand of cognitivie dissonance as the Holy Spirit persistently woos them to look outside the box and to find that truth does not equal Adventism. If those Adventists continue to say "Yes" to Jesus, they will probably ultimately end up leaving the church. If they stop short of embracing truth that leads them out, they will settle for a comfortable life devoid of spiritual power but punctuated by recurring stabs of doubt and guilt and uncertainty. David Koresh, as I'm sure you already know, began as an Adventist. I even was told, after Waco happened, of one of my former students who died in those flames. Praise God that there really is objective truth and reality and that he reveals it to us when we desire to know Him! Colleen | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
I think one of the main problems that I see not only in the SDA church but JW's and Mormans is that the extreme ones are totally out of touch with this generation. Another words culturely they are not in tune to fit in and be all things to all men as Paul was, in order to win some to christ. The SDA youth that rebel are just as wordly as the unbelievers compared to other Christian youth groups. And the most of them do rebel not all but most. This is the SDA's future generation. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I have found in the past year and a half witnessing to them with my testimony, that they are either scared to death or backsliders, or new to the religion and still in the dark. Also, they have serious problems with their pasts, usually self esteem problems and self worth problems. I know I never felt like my life counted for anything because I was always told "These are the last days" you wont have time to go to high school, much less college or get married. So I figured, what the heck? They seem productive and responsible for the most part, probably because, like I, they had to work 4 hours a day and 12 hours on weekends in highschool to pay for their tuition. The ones who seem super spiritual usually end up doing something extreme, like this one woman at my mom's church who "was so close to God" well, her husband left her for another woman and she shot herself and her kids, one of the kids didn't die and they didn't find her until 2 days later and I think she's paralyzed. Of course, they said, she just snapped. Christians don't just snap! They have faith to pull them through! Another time the choir director ran off with another guy in the church--both married. Oh, then my high school dorm lady or whatever she was, always leaving for hours and coming back with hickeys on her neck, finally got fired for living a sinful life. HA! I know there is junk like that in every church, I just remember it being the majority in SDA's when you get to know them well. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Sabra, Everyone can see a person going to church on the sabbath, but commiting adultry is for the most part done in secret. That what is done in secret gets shouted from the roof tops when revealed. Going to church whether Sunday or Saturday can camofluose the true nature of anyone. People generelly will accept a person as been spiritual just because they attend a weekly service. At church we like everyone to think we are serious about living for God then at work we don't want anyone to know. The world that we live in is truely like the days of Noah compared to the times that Jesus walked on the earth when people generally wanted everyone to think that they were spiritual. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Wow! What a heavy-duty discussion I seem to have sparked. I, too, remember being taught as a child that we will have to flee to the mountains and caves to run from the beastr but the beast just might catch us after all and we'd best be preparred to endure toture and death for our alligence to the Sabbath. Jesus was not brought into the discussion until at the end when we were told we'd be the only ones on earth saved and could then go to heaven to be with Jesus. My 5th grade teacher even had these big, huge charts and pictures of horrible looking beasts chasing all the good, little Adventist children. And, while running to the mountains we had best not pack a ham sandwich in our lunchbox! | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
This is all true.What is bad is that I could see Jerry losing it like that.ALL he does is work 6 days a week and read his Bible.He is the most depressing person to be around,nobody can stand to be around him long,except sda's.If someone is talking about something other than God,he is not in the conversation!His family doesn't even invite us over to family dinners b/c he has to push his beliefs on everyone,or tell them how God doesn't want them eating, talking, and acting[cutting-up]the way they do.It's unreal! Angie | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Well, they are just looking for the wrong signs and the true signs are all around us, I'm worried for them, they probably wont even recognize the AC because he wont be promoting Sunday so they might just get sucked right into his "great ideas" Another thing that worries me is that they believe Jesus wont come here on earth until after they've been in heaven for 1000 years so when He does come here for the 1000 years, won't they be just like the Jews and not recognize Him? | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Susan, I remember during the 2000 rollover thing that my mother panicked and began discussing the "flee to the mountains stuff" and made mention that she was so glad that she moved up there in the hills with my sister, Mountain City of all places, sorry but the name of the town wakes me have all kind of mixed emotions. It is a beautiful spot to live but her house is right in the middle of town on a steep hill that looks down over everything, not a lot to look at since it is a small town but it is definitely in the mountains. Well, back to the story, I could just tell how panicked she was simply by the tone in her voice, and she started telling me about her survival books and articles that she was reading and how her car's trunk was full of blankets, pillows, and stuff, and then asked if I had plenty of canned foods, toilet paper, candles, etc. After talking over the phone with her and trying to calm her, she got sort of irate with me because I wasn't acting concerned about any of it but said I was ready to meet God in the rapture and even looking forward to it, well when I got off the phone, I decided to email her some scripture, you know the ones like "comfort" ye one another with these words, etc. Well, when she read the letter where I told her that she shouldn't believe what the SDAs taught about being hunted with blood-hounds and drinking water from the creeks and streams that had dye put in it for tracking purposes, and fleeing into the wilderness and living in caves so they wouldn't get murdered for their faith, etc. Well, when I got her reply from the message of comfort, instead of seeing that I was trying to ease her fear and comfort her with the word of God, she pulled a Jekyll and Hyde routine and started telling me all about how the SDAs had God's promise that they would be shielded and protected from the enemy in the wilderness, oh well, go figure? I guess some folks would rather be scared but religious than to be freed from all the worry of this life that Satan keeps trying to hang back around our necks. It is hard I know and much easier said than done, but the fact remains that the Bible tells us that we are to "count it all joy" when we are thought badly of when trying to proclaim the simplicity of the gospel to a lost bunch of people. I don't want anyone to die without Jesus touching their hearts and healing them, those people will come up with a lot of excuses at the great white throne judgment of the lost, but that is just it, THEY ARE LOST that do not believe!!!!!! Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wow, Angie, your husband has had a major change of outward behavior in the recent past, hasn't he? We can at least pray that as he reads the Bible, a spark of desire to really know what it says will be fanned into a flame. We can also pray that his compulsive-sounding behavior will drive him to desperation, and he will cry out to God for help. Still praying for you and for him, Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Pheeki, I could definitely write a book about what you just said about "weird" people hanging about SDAs but it would open up "a can of worms" and I don't feel like smelling them or seeing them tonight, 'nuf said, so I won't post what is on my mind but will just say that yes, they're definitely some "weirdos" around, and we will only see it getting worse as we get closer and closer to the end times. Just look at what the Romans were like 2000 years ago when Paul was preaching to them and just ask yourself "how much longer Lord". It just can't keep on going like this, God is "longsuffering" but he will be just and now that we have been justified and sanctified, now all we need to wait for is our glorified bodies, amen. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Colleen, What you said about if the Adventists continue to say "Yes" to Jesus, they will probably leave SDAs someday. I have seen what you described, it happens with too many people that leave cults, they do sometimes and many times stop short of embracing truth that leads them on in the pursuit of even greater truth and sometimes even to the point of literally "biting the hand that feeds them" by finding fault in EVERYTHING you try to show them "IN" God's word, they will settle for a comfortable life without any spiritual power to fight Satan with and sway back and forth with depression and anger mixed in with doubts, guilt, and uncertainty in every doctrine they try to grasp. It is sad to see how much power Satan has over them but don't have very far to look, my own mirror, to know why many don't get hold of it. It took me, no it isn't finished yet, it has taken me over 40 years to get where I am in my faith, and I am still learning. I am not perfect but then, I never claimed to be either, did I? I still glean something from a different perspective every time I read and study God's word, it never gets old to me and I want to share the joy of my salvation, praise God. I will close by saying that God tells us to knock, to seek, and to ask, and all of these words are descriptive words that all mean "make the inquiry". Look for the truth, knock on the door of God's heart because he's always home, go in and ask him about GRACE, GRACE, GRACE. When you find grace--he will put HIS laws into your heart, it will come natural to want to do right because the Holy Spirit guides you, that is why he is known as "the comforter" and he gives his children sleep. I am ready for sleep and will not lose any time condemning myself for not giving one more day at trying to reach out one more time. Who knows, next time just might be it, right? Don't ever give up, allow God to RENEW your strength, the anchor holds in life's stormy waters. Oh yes. Janice | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Colleen,that is the thing with him,it is from one extreme to the other,there is no in between with him.It's like the people at church wil tell him something and he does what they say.Yea,he will look it up in the Bible,but you know sda's,they take so much stuff out of contex that he'll find something to support what they've said.Please do keep praying for us.God Bless,Angie | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
In the "End" we may be laying down our lives for the Sabbath. However, the Sabbath that I will lay my life down for is not a day. My Sabbath is Jesus, and I'd lay my life down for Him any time. I feel sorry for so many who think that they're willing to lay their lives down for a day, or a principle, or a concept, or good works, , or the Law, or the church, etc. If you lay your life down for any of those or a million other things, you just died for yourself, because all these things are of self and the world. Jesus is NOT of this world. Steve | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, Did you ever wander that in the end we might be the ones picking up a sword? The Day of the Lord is said to be a dreaded day for those that do not know God. And when Jesus returns He comes with His Army to make war with the nations. I know this concept is not discused much or not at all because of the love of God. But I wander sometimes why Jesus said in: Luke 22 Supplies for the Road 35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: "And He was numbered with the transgressors.'[4] For the things concerning Me have an end." 38So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Brad, Yeah, I used to wonder about the meaning of taking up a sword. However, in reading the entire gospel, it is apparent that Jesus did not mean a literal sword. Continue reading (the original did not have chapter and verse markings). Luke 22: 49-51, 49 When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. Jesus could not have meant using a blade of steel to slice into the flesh of other men. In verse 37 Jesus said that He was numbered with the transgressors. How was He numbered with us? Our sin was "accounted" to Him. His Righteousness was "accounted" to us when He was on the cross. He did not need to pick up a sword, just as we don't need to pick up "a" cross. We need to take up the cross of Christ. His cross is our sword. The word of God is sharper that any two-edged sword. We slay people with the sword of God's word and His Spirit daily when we witness against the futile and vain ways of this world, and to the fulfillment of all things in Christ. (Much different than the "slayings" we see with certain televangelists.) Yes, "it is enough." Steve | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, If Jesus meant a spiritual sword why would He have said that He was to be numbered with the transgressors. And who bringing a money bag and back pack be spiritual also. These scripture if spiritual could take on a whole new meaning. I find that when it comes to violent things people lean to a spiritual interpetation. But when it comes to things like the rapture and the coming of the Lord people want to believe in a physical interpetation. Do you know what I mean? I think most are afraid to step out from the view that will get them into hot water with the rest. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Speaking of swords, I have a study on Revelations that has a picture of the Lord riding on a horse with a sword pouring out from his mouth. I personally believe that the sword is the word of God. The opening chapter of John talks about the word becoming flesh and dwelling among us, and one of his titles is "the living word" so, yes, I agree too that it isn't necessarily a literal sword. Another thought too, this could be another one of those instances of "dual" applications too. Also, doesn't the Bible teach that the wicked will be destroyed with the brightness of his coming? Couldn't this be taken as spiritual insight concerning his character as well? I guess I am even confusing myself trying to word this right but what I mean is this: If we are in darkness without Jesus in our hearts and then his light shines within our dark souls, then I am thinking that the Holy Spirit working through us will also "destroy" our enemies, right? I hope I explained it good enough. One last thing from Romans concerning LAW. Chapter 3:20--Therefore, by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin. 21--BUT NOW THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WITHOUT THE LAW IS "MANIFESTED"..........22--EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD which is by FAITH of JESUS CHRIST...... Janice | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Brad, Yes, I agree about how people take the passages of scripture either physically or spiritually. I tend to agree with them (now, but not as an SDA.) For instance, think about all the Old Testament passages that contain violence. Real violence manifested in the flesh, carried out by people who were doing God's will. All of the passages about Messiah coming, or the Righteousness of the Lord were spiritually understood as being true of God, and true of His Messiah who was to come, i.e., spiritualized. In the New Testament, it is reversed. The passages about violence are now spiritually interpreted. This must be the case if the New Testament is to hold water. Jesus, Luke, Paul, the author of Hebrews, Peter, John, and Jude never promoted literal physical violence. Actually, amongst all those in the New Testament, Jesus was the most violent (in His words). Yet, when He stated truths, like the sword passage, it became apparent that He didn't mean a literal sword. Why would He have told Peter, "Stop. No more of this."? And the passages that were spiritualized in the Old Testament, are literally and physically (as well as spiritually) true today. If he really wanted His followers to take up the literal sword, and Peter thought that was exactly what He meant, then why did He rebuke His followers for doing what His words seem to mean to the average hearer? There are some extremist SDAs that believe in taking up a weapon to kill Sabbath-breakers at the end of time, as a fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 9. (This is NOT a position of the SDA church, but there are extremists in a couple of off-shoot groups that believe in this literal taking up of a weapon.) There is a very secretive, little known, but very large cult that refers to the passage to which you refer. They take the words of Jesus as being literal when it says "two by two." What if we want to witness three by three, one by one, or ten by ten? Should we take the "two by two" literally? Of course not. Two by two is a great method. But to say that is the only way it should be done is to take those words and chisel them into stone. I understand that it appears that many Christians seem to take some passages as literal and others as spiritual, while they take others in both ways, or only metaphorically. For example, Jesus said: Matt 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." If Christians are to take this literally, I don't know a single Christian (at least the male variety) who would have any eyes before long. Jesus also talks about chopping off limbs, etc. Hey, let's take it literally. If my mind offends me, I should remove it (cut at the neck) so that I may lose my head, but at least my whole body won't be thrown into hell! Of course He didn't mean that literally. I work with a number of Filipino's. At Easter time, we were laughing (they were laughing too!) about some of their fellow country-men who take up crosses (literally), and have themselves crucified (literally) with nails through the hands and feet, to observe what Jesus commanded. Even the one Christian gentleman I know at work, who lived much of his life in the Philippines, agrees that it's just craziness. I agree with other evangelical Christians about the interpretations of many of those things. Although it may seem inconsistent at first, when Christ starts renewing ones mind, all of these seeming inconsistencies (red herrings) turn out to be very consistent. Remember, Paul said in I Corinthians 1:20-29: 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. In our day and age, we are surrounded by the modern Greeks, people who want consistency to the point of absurdity. I believe our logic, reasoning, etc. should be used to the best of the ability God gave us. But if it contradicts His word, we should take a serious look at why we believe what we believe. Our God is a loving God. He also sends people to hell. Is this a contradiction? To the modern Greek it is. To the born again Christian, it makes perfect sense. Sorry for rambling on for so long, Brad. Hope this helps in some way. At least your question gave ME plenty to think on for a while. Steve |
