| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Colleen, For us, it was truly a miracle. I can't wait to be with Jerry again someday. And with our Savior Who made it possible for families to be reunited beyond this life of tears and sorrows. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Patti, Wonderful story of Jerry's last words of praise. I will be eager to meet him in eternity to ask him about his final thoughts here on earth!! Was it hard to speak at his funeral? I admire your courage. I have a hard time just thinking of death...which is kind of crazy since I have such assurance of eternal life. I guess it's just that life here can be so difficult; and I hate to lose any friend's or relative's support and love through it all. You mentioned your mom...I pray and think of her too. Please give her my love. Although I've not met her either, from her writings she sounds like a very interesting person. May you all sense God's arms holding you close to His heart. There is a country song I've heard a few times on the car radio on the way back and forth to work (sung by John Michael Montgomery) entitled "The Little Girl". Some would say is overly dramatic and tear-jerking; and yet, when I hear it I get very emotional thinking about Jesus death for us on the cross.... To me it really has a message of a Savior who suffered for us...and continues to suffer with us... The story is about a little girl who hides behind the couch the night her drunken and drugged father and mother fight again and die in a murder/suicide. The little girl goes off to live in a new, loving home where she is taken to church for the first time. As she goes into the Sunday School room she sees a picture of Christ on the Cross.... The song ends like this: "And a small little girl stared at a picture of Him... She said, 'I know that Man up there on that Cross... I donít know His name, but I know He got off! 'Cuz He was there in my old house, AND HELD ME CLOSE TO HIS SIDE... As I hid there behind our couch, the night that my parents died.'" I believe He does hold us close to His side, especially when the enemy called Death surrounds us and tries to bring us completely down. I surely donít understand the needless suffering of "innocent" people, but I do believe God has provided a "great escape" from all this suffering! As Phillip Yancey writes in regards to Mary and Martha at their brother Lazarus' tomb: "Jesus gives God a face... and that face is streaked with tears". Grace always, Cindy p.s. I love also the words of Jurgen Moltmann... "God weeps with us so that we may someday laugh with Him." :-)) :-)) | ||
| Patti |
Thank you for your words of comfort, Cindy. Was it hard to speak at Jerry's funeral, you ask? It would have been much harder to remain silent. I am glad that his wife asked all of us, his siblings, to share our memories of Jerry. I am so glad that I was with him the last 3 weeks of his life and that I was there when he spoke his words of praise. Those words have uplifted and supported my mother throughout this. We have just had to keep reminding each other that "we are not as those who have no hope." Mom is struggling with her grief right now, but I am calling her often, as is my older brother. Sometimes it all just seems like a bad dream. When we all stood around his hospital bed, my sister, brother, Mom, his wife and his son, and watched his blood pressure slowly sink on the monitor, it seemed as if I were watching it on a TV show. It just did not seem real at all. And, in a sense, it was not real. Jerry left this artificial life to be with the true Lifegiver. I cannot begrudge his going to a better place. But I cannot deny how much he is missed by those who love him. Martin Luther lost his daughter at age 13 and he said much the same thing. Whereas his spiritual self rejoiced that she was departing this life to be with the Lord, his flesh was wracked with grief and selfish longing for her to stay here with him. So it is with me. Thank you for caring. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Patti, The more I've thought about it, I agree, and know what you mean in saying, "Was it hard to speak at Jerry's funeral, you ask? It would have been much harder to remain silent." The hope we have in God IS something to speak up about! Even in--especially in--the worst circumstances where Evil "seems" to triumph... I appreciate your words, "It just did not seem real at all. And, in a sense, it was not real. Jerry left this artificial life to be with the true Lifegiver." Still, as you say, there IS pain in missing that living, breathing person! Although the reality of the "Kingdom of Heaven"--eternal life!--has begun now; the totally complete "turning of my wailing into DANCING, and CLOTHING ME with JOY!" (Psalms 31:11&12) will one day come, because of the gift of Jesus! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Dear Therese, It has been a while since your post and I have been wanting to get back to your question on how to assimilate life on the outside of SDAism. I guess it took me a while to think about it. I did so many stupid things. I was young and had not found the message of GRACE and NEW COVENANT thinking. So what was I left with? This is a burdening concern of mine. There are many young people who are leaving Adventism because they just can not do it anymore. But they do not realize that there is something better. So they probably are doing some of the stupid things I did. I feel humbled and fortunate that I ended up with my health intact and in a good marriage with two rambunctious boys to love. But that did not happen because I planned it that way. I was plain lucky. Looking back these are some of the suggestions I would give a person: Give the Bible another chance. But don't just pick it up and reread it as you will probably just re read it like an Adventist. Find a grace oriented church and have Bible studies with one of their leaders. Sit and listen to a different perspective. A great suggestion found in the NEW COVENANT CHRISTIAN booklet (online at Graceplace.org) is to read the New Testament first and then go back and read the Old Testa ment in the light of the new. Find a counselor who is both a Christian and has expertise in grieve or addictive processes. They will be able to give the support needed for the big changes in the day to day way of doing things. Seek out places to have a wholesome social life particularly if you are young or single. It is too easy to end up in night clubs or bars. The one right thing I did was join a square danicing group. There was no smoking or drinking there which I liked. I came alone and went home alone. I danced with a wide variety of people and was never "hit up" on. I found it a safe place to socialize without getting caught up in bad situations for a young girl (at the time). Avoid drinking. It is very easy to turn from one addictive and abusive situation and land right smack dab in the middle of another one. This has nothing to do with whether drinking is a sin or not. It has to do with the vulnerability of an individual leaving Adventism and the addictive qualitis of alcohol. If I were to do it over again I would have joined a christian youth group and another church. But at the time I was in a limbo. I couldn't be an Adventist and I could not accept that other Christian groups were acceptable. I had that haunting feeling that I was in an "apostate" crowd. Oddly, I felt safer to be with complete non Christians than in a group who "professed Christianity" but did not live like SDAs. Although I left the church, the church still had its hooks in my way of thinking. If you can not at this time join another church or church group, find another community service organization to join. Perhaps helping at a food bank or homeless mission or volunteering at a Children's hospital or nursing home. You will have an opportunity to see that God works in many people's lives outside of the SDA church. You will also meet many wonderful people. It is a postivie way to spend your time. Probably the most helpful thing for me was both counseling and reading books on religious addiction, abusive relationships, and the greiving process. I could then see the psychological hold that Adventism had on me. I consider myself a recovering Adventist. Much like an alcoholic I live with this day to day. It is very easy fo rme to slip back into that pattern of behavior that was repeatatively indoctrinated into me. I am wondering what other people would suggest. Any suggestions out there? Valerie | ||
| Valm |
The most difficult challenge I had in leaving Adventism is the things I needed to do to heal myself were the things that the SDA church warned against and had determined were my grieving away the Holy Spirit. Does anyone have suggestions on how to help people over come that HUGE stumbling block? Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Another quote I found in Catholic Digest Oct 2000 today while doing laundry. This one was in an article entitled "Does Jesus Live in Your House?" It speaks of the day to day rituals we provide our children to remind them of who we are and the grace of Jesus. "Recent research from George Washington University reinforces the notion that rituals strengthen families. a study on alcoholic families showed that the one thing successful families-- those that succeeded in not handing alcoholism down to the ghird generation-- had in common was rituals. In fact, researchers called the "ritual-protected" families. Rituals as simple and familiar as those at bedtime, mealtime, and holidays made the families secure and gave them a sense of identity and belonging-- and a better shot at recovery." There are many rituals in SDAism that are lost when leaving: Sabbath keeping, eating habits, worship habits, ways of dress, church activities to name a few. When leaving SDAism these rituals and the comfort of them are left too. If rituals help with recovery and we have lost so many of them, does that give us a unique problem in our recovery? What new rituals have people adapted in their lives since leaving Adventism to give them (and their families) a sense of cohesiveness, identity and rhythm? Please share them with us. Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie, wonderful suggestions you gave Therese; I liked the term "recovering Adventist". :-)) I'm still in the midst of disentangling and have made many mistakes... It really is a matter of trusting God to guide you one day at a time! And realizing we are accepted always IN HIM! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Colleentinker |
The hardest ritual for us to give up was Sabbath observance. We all looked forward to Friday evenings and Sabbath because we would have a complete change of pace. Even after we quit going to the Adventist church and began having home church on Sunday, we still couldn't bring ourselves to work on Saturday. We were consequently careening out-of-control because we had no weekend day on which to do the work we used to do on weekends. When you have a home-based business, not having a weekend day is death! When we finally decided that in order to be completely honest with ourselves and act on our beliefs, it was hard at first to work on Saturday. But the most surprising thing that happened was that we began experiencing a complete gift from God: we began to be aware of His rest and his love in a way we had not experienced it before. And that rest lasted all week! God ultimately brought other rituals into our lives--rituals we could not have forseen or planned. And this reality is the crux of my post. I firmly believe that when we commit ourselves totally to Jesus and begin to live by the Spirit, he brings things into our lives that are his will for us. We don't have to set out to make them happen. I do not mean that we shouldn't take certain positivie steps of our own. But I do believe that God leads us to the times and places for those steps. In our case, He led us to establish a home church with our neighbors, and it was by his grace that it ended when it did. We did not intend to disband, but the neighbors couldn't meet at any time other than the time we'd been meeting, and when we began to attend Trinity, we couldn't do home church at the same time. In spite of the akwardness of disbanding (our neighbors did not choose to begin attending another church), it was God's timing. We could not have participated at Trinity well if we'd had competition for our time. And God led us to Trinity at exactly the right time for us and our boys. Another ritual God established is our Friday night FAF meeting. That has become a highlight for us as well as for most of the group. We all look forward to it all week. But God broght that to us when he was ready and when we were ready. Val is right; it leaves a great empty place to lose those rituals. But God is so faithful; he knows what we need to fill that emptiness. Sometimes what we need is for us to be "empty" for a while so we can learn that He will fill us. But he doesn't leave us fallow forever. God himself will bring us our work and our worship, and he knows exactly where we need to be! I truly stand in awe when I watch how God works. There's no way to know in advance what He has in mind, but I'm beginning to learn that I can trust him with my unknowns! Colleen | ||
| Valm |
Colleen, The thought of being empty for a while so we can learn that He will fill us is something I will be thinking about. I am such a doer that I get fidgety with empty. I do think you have a good point here. I also appreciate the natural proces your family took in developing ritual and a new rhythm to your life. Thank you for your words of encouragement to those who are in that empty place of their lives. Cindy, disentangling is a great word in itself. And isn't comfortingto know that all of those stupid mistakes are covered by Jesus? Valerie | ||
| Therese |
Hi Everyone, I appreciated the suggestions for help in making the transition out of SDA. I never thought about the rituals, but can see it is important to establish new traditions to replace the ones you are leaving behind. One advantage we have is that because of my husband's illness, we began seeking support through caring ministries at non-SDA churches (SDA has no supportive ministries to help members get through life's trials). We began to see a contrast with what other churches consider important and are doing and what SDA does. We took our son out of SDA school in 6th grade because the teacher was bad and it became too expensive due to our medical costs. We put him in public. Once out of the SDA educational system, there are no youth ministries, so we let him go to a non-denominational youth program. They have been very nice to him where as the SDAs snubbed him and were mad at us. When we did these things, it was never with the intention of leaving the "truth", just trying to find support. But the exposure to these other churches has further opened our eyes. I believe God, in His mercy, led us to these other churches in anticipation of our disillusionment with SDA. We got some familiarity with non-SDA churches without any commitment before we had to begin thinking about making the transition out of SDA. It gives some peace and confidence. Others may want to get involved with another church's ministry in a low key way just to get comfortable with something other than SDA. I think it helps. Problem I have is with making friends outside SDA. When you grow up in an alcoholic home like I did, you don't know what normal is. So when you realize your home was dysfunctional, you also realize you can't recognize normal and have concerns you are not normal. I had to watch how other people interacted, read books on child rearing, etc. because I did not have good models. I am feeling the same way coming out of SDA. I have not made any friends at these other churches. There was one couple we were attarcted to, but we realized they reminded us of SDAs in their approach to life and religion. It scared me we were attracted to them. (Like the adult child of an alcoholic marrying an alcoholic.)We decided to stay away. My husband's illness also complicates the matter of making friends since his disability is visible. We have experienced much rejection. It is amazing how a serious problem can separate the goats from the sheep in your life. We saw this especially true is SDA. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks Therese | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Therese. Do any of the churches you have liked have women's Bible study groups or samll groups for people dealing with particular problems? For example, at our church we have weekly small groups for people recovering from various life problems such as childhood sexual abuse, drug abuse, etc. I've found the women's bible study to be absolutely wonderful. The women in my small group become loyal prayer partners and supportive friends. One thing you'll discover in truly Christian churches is that people there really PRAY. It's not a form; it's a reality, and they pray very honestly and sincerely. I have a dear family member in another state who has discovered the same phenomenon of honest, open Bible study and prayer in a local Bible church's women's group. I don't know the nature or extent of your husband's illness, but he might also consider a men's study group. My husband has experienced the same thing in his group that I've discovered in mine. With prayers that you will find true Christian fellowship, Colleen | ||
| Therese |
Hi Colleen, Thanks for the suggestions. We are participating in a group for people and their families dealing with chronic illness. We have not been comfortable trying to make friends. This church is pretty far from our home, so it would make it hard to get together with people. The church youth group my son attends is closer to our house and they have small bible study groups I have thought about joining, but I don't feel comfortable trying to get to know people. I'm not sure why. I don't see these people as being in babylon any more. But I do have a fear that I might get mixed up in another dysfunctional system since I've been through two -- SDA & RC (three if you count my family of origin). Is this a common fear among those coming our of SDA? I suppose I need to take a chance and see what happens. I don't know if I can recognize dysfunction. Any suggestions on what constitutes a healthy church system? Thanks, Therese | ||
| Valm |
Therese, Yes the fear of out of the frying pan into the fire is a common one. It is my belief that people with other addictive qualities in their background (for example alcoholism) are more vulnerable to ending up in an abusive or toxic religious system. In my case both of my parents come from homes of fathers with alcoholism which left both families impoverished. We also have a strong family hx of adhd which I believe is another risk factor. I can not say enough about the book Toxic Faith. I would tell you who the author is except I loaned the book to a client who moved before I could get it back. The book reviews charecteristics of a functional and dysfunctional church community. Therese, I believe we are drawn to what is familiar to us. You demonstrated great wisdom when you said you were attracted to the one couple but then realized they had behaviours similar to the sdas you had befriended. Use that as your guide to a certain degree. There is that gut feeling, you sensed it and used it once; it will serve you well. God bless you Therese, keep up your search, it is well worth it. Valerie | ||
| Chyna |
i think it was mentioned above, but again i will just reiterate a good idea. establishing new rituals might be the way to take the place and still add a sense of cohesion to your life. as for the IJ/Day of Atonement doctrine by starting out from the SDA viewpoint you will take a long and tortuous path to find the truth. coming from a NON SDA viewpoint is much easier and much quicker to show you the truth. in short, out of almost everyone who has studied the bible, there is no evidence of Investigative Judgement/Day of Atonement found by Biblical scholars. coming from the SDA viewpoint you will have to start talking about Desmond Ford who wrote a 999 page dissertation stating how IJ is not substantiated from the Bible. then you will read that at Glacier they had their own Biblical scholars examine the bible and turns out they all agreed with Desmond Ford but none of the administration had even read any part of the dissertation and defrocked him (took away his pastorship). this to me is characteristic of how the SDA church deals with dissent about their doctrines. and also proves a pattern of SDA doctrine. exegesis, is looking at a text and then from it surmising what it means (ok maybe that's not the exact definition, but whatever), however, SDAs do, almost the exact opposite. they took an idea, then looked at the text for substantiation of their idea. a similar thing happened to me this weekend. My best friend got really mad at me. when we finally talked about why she was mad at me, she said that she thought that I thought she was a "woman of loose morals" because I didn't have that opinion of her, I expressed how much I loved her and how I didn't think that about her at all. it took her a minute, but then she began to see that she had formulated this idea or worry and then attributed it to me and looked solely for things that would fit into her presumption of what i though. simply, she had created it, whereas I had never felt that way about her at all. anyway, the point is that SDAs did the same. they had ideas that they had culled from various places, and instead of going from the Bible and what it said to formulate doctrine, they went the opposite way. they went, instead, with Ellen G. White and other formulative people of SDAism. so EGW prophesizes about IJ. which Therese, incidentally was just a big cover up because Jesus didn't return in 1843, or 1844 for that matter, so someone had a vision saying that it actually meant IJ. from someone on the outside i am mentally slapping my forehead. to me it is so obviously unbiblical and a cover up of a mistake. and the thing is EGW condoned and probably even encouraged the prediction of the end of the world at 1843 or 1844, and this is the woman the denomination's doctrine rests upon. when it plainly states that no one knows what hour He is coming. it is the same thing with Sabbath, soul sleep, health message, hell is annihilation, jesus is michael the archangel. and as many have pointed out poking wholes in these various doctrines is very easy. as my geometry teacher would say: it only takes one premise to prove that it is false, if one part is found false, then it is entirely false. ok i wasn't a star at geometry. but to prove a theorem wrong, you just have to prove ONE instance that it is wrong. and I will do it here for you in short about most SDA key doctrine. poking holes in SDA doctrine: 1. IJ: There is no condemnation ... 2. Sabbath: Then God again set aside a day, calling it Today. "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? ... One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honour of the Lord." (Rom. 14:4-6) 3. Health Message: . "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them (Pharisees). Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes in the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean' for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. these are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' Matt 15:16-20, Mark 7:15, 18-19 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' 'are you so dull he asked, don't you see that nothing that enters a man from thte outside can make him unclean? for it doesn't go into his heart, but into his stomach and then out of his body." (in saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean") 4 Jesus is Michael the archangel: Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. in this instance, if Michael is afraid of Satan, the Michael cannot be Jesus because Jesus is the Creator of Satan, Omnipotent (all powerful God). 5. soul sleep - "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." 6. hell is annihilation - Matthew 25:46 "They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" 7. EGW as a prophet: EGW-Spiritual Gifts PG 232, 233, 234 I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller. see? she did predict that Jesus was coming back in 1843. she was wrong. _____ anyway, Therese, I want to recommend to you my webpage about Adventism I put together some months ago struggling with it, not as a participant, but as one who has been hurt deeply by being involved with a still active Adventist http://www.geocities.com/donotloseyourfaith hope it helps. i don't have a bunch about IJ, because, like how Paul never said directly what those cults were preaching directly, he did address why they were wrong. so I hope I've done that on my webpage and here. love, Chyna | ||
| Cindy |
Chyna, great post on exposing the lunacy of some of the doctrines, especially how the IJ doctrine was embraced after the humiliating "great disappointment"... I know somewhere EGW says that God was in it all, covering His hand over some of the prophecies at the time which would have given the true meaning to the 1843-1844 time proclaimation. If THAT isn't ridiculous! He was purposely letting them be deceived? You are invaluable here as a committed Christian who sees from the "outside", but yet has had the love and interest to speak up. There was a purpose in all your sorrow with your ex.... God be with you, Chyna. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Chyna |
thanks cindy, I just think it is so important to know the truth. the saddest part about Adventism is that it prides itself on being biblical, when their doctrine taken in the full light of salvation and the Bible crumbles. poking holes in Adventist doctrine is so easy, it only takes a verse or two from Scripture to make it collapse. yet, the spiritual blindness and emotional and psychological attachment to these false doctrines makes it hard to see the truth. thanks for all the encouragement! Chyna | ||
| Therese |
Valm, I looked into getting the book "TOXIC FAITH." It is now being published under the name "FAITH THAT HURTS, FAITH THAT HEALS." The author is Stephen Arterburn. It can be purchased at the author's ministriy's web site -- www.newlife.com Therese | ||
| Therese |
Chyna, You're web site has a lot of good information. Thanks. Therese | ||
| Chyna |
it was collected for a good reason ... you're welcome, chyna |
