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Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This question just came to me and I wonder if someone who knows the ins and outs of SDA could tell me what would your answer have been when you were in.

Lets take a Gilligan's Island scenerio. What if you were an SDA and you were shipwreaked and you ended up on shore having been unconscious. When you come to you have no idea what day it is. How then do you determine which day you should observe as the Sabbath?
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would wait until a double portion of manna came in one day after five or less single portions came in . Then I would go out and check after recieveing a double portion of manna the next day to see if there was no manna. If there was no manna I would know for sure whether to keep a Sabbath Day or not.

If the first time I when out and there was no manna I would wait for the next day to see if there was a single portion. If not I would not worry about keeping the Sabbath

HA HA
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Carol,

I guess you could do it like a good SDA. Of course, when you're unconscious, I guess you could say you were dead, because in Adventism, the dead "know not anything."

Once you came back to life (awoke) I guess you'd think that no time had passed (just like a dead SDA.) Therefore, if it was Tuesday when you were knocked out, it would be "Tuesday" when you awoke.

You'd then count 3 sundowns to Friday's sundown. You'd state "this is the Sabbath!" And even if it was a Wednesday, you'd start honoring God by keeping that day "holy" from sundown to sundown, every Wednesday, for ever and ever, because we know that you'd never get rescued from Gilligan's Island.

When you get to heaven, the SDA god would cast you into "hell" where you'd burn up very quickly because at least you tried to keep the Sabbath.

Of course, the real SDA organization does practically the same thing.

If you live north or south far enough, and have days and nights that don't end for very long periods of time, they don't go by the actual sundown. They go by the time in a 24 hour period where the sun is the lowest in the sky, and keep that period until the next "day" when the sun is again lowest in the sky.

It's arbitrary and non-biblical. Even the international date-line is arbitrary. On one side it's "today" on the other side it's "yesterday" or "tomorrow" depending on which side you're on.

The sabbath was for Israel when travel and extreme situations did not exist for the people. Today, SDAs have even dealt with the idea of a sabbath-keeper in space. It's prime example of the stupidity I used to believe in.

Rather than keep 1 in 7 orbits around the Earth as holy, they should actually keep a 24 hour period once in every 168 hour period, based on take-off point, landing-point, or some other (I forgot) point on Earth.

Babble, babble on, babble-on, babbleon, babylon...

Steve
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi guys,

I am so glad SDA did not take away your sense of humor. How did you display it while you were SDA, since everything seems to be so glum?

So the way I see it, when placed in a situation where you know not the actual Sabbath you decide for yourself what would be fitting. (Could you give me scripture for that)? Therefore it is not about the day(didn't I read that somewhere)but rather like Collosians 2:16 says Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the BODY IS OF CHRIST.

Of course I guess when you are made to believe that you are the chosen people then you can do whatever you want, but when we who are not the chosen people ( those who do not keep the Sabbath)say that any day is a Sabbath because our Sabbath is Jesus Death, Burial and resurrrection, we do not have the truth. Go figure.???

Forgive me for asking, but I ask it only in a way to understand how a person can believe such without taking all into account thus what did you do with plain simple logic and this verse:

1 John 4
Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I have thought the same things about the time zones and what if you went to the other side of the world would you observe the Sabbath in their time or the one you just left. I quess this is just petty on my part, ugh?

What does SDA do with your God given free will mind? Being a teacher at heart I think that is an abomination in itself ie to take away your freedom to think on your own. I have always loved debate and when my son was in early high school he wrote a paper about what he liked to do with his Mother and one of the things was to debate. The reason I love it is because in debate you learn.

Again I say thanks and praise God that you accepted the freedom that Jesus Christ provided for us.

Looking forward to talking more, Carol
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First day I wake up is the first day of the week for me (Sunday). I count off, open Sabbath on "Friday", and make sure I don't swim, fish, cook, work on my raft, relight my fire if it goes out (I lit it before Sabbath), or think about Dodger Dogs and nachos until Sabbath is over - having cracked all my coconuts before Sabbath started. If I didn't ultimately guess the day right, I'd depend on the fact that, since I was a Sabbathkeeper and had further considered that this was how I thought Ellen might have handled the situation, and did that to the best of my ability, Jesus' grace would overlook my technical mistake. do you see now why I call myself freeatlast?
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freeatlast
So there is always a right answer from the
Sabbath keeper no matter who it might effect. I have never known a teacher that expected you to know something that said had not already taught you and such would not be a 'good' teacher in my mind. My Lord and Saviour sent from God was the Best teacher ever and I do not see anywhere in the Bible my only textbook that He taught to keep the Sabbath, quite the contrary He broke it. I think I showed scripture for this in another post.

Keep up the satire, I love it. There must be some kind of humor in this all or I will lose it, Carol
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, I loved and laughed at "When you get to heaven, the SDA god would cast you into "hell" where you'd burn
up very quickly because at least you tried to keep the Sabbath." Just curious whether all our FAF buddies that have never been SDA understand that one!?! EGW (correct me if I'm wrong) said something to the effect that we'd burn in hell an amount of time in relation to how great our sins were! Ha! Gotta run, am at work (I know, shame on me!) Carol #2
Madelia (Madelia)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Steve, your sense of humor is terrific. The other part of this question is who tells you how to observe the Sabbath. I remember when I drove to a women's retreat with our pastor's wife. When we got to the retreat, it was sundown, the start of the Sabbath, and she of course wasn't going to buy anything to eat. I was hungry and had just found out I was pregnant and was having morning sickness. But I felt so guilty that I just ate some crackers I had packed for a snack.

Then there's the time my husband was reading the classified ads in the paper and found an SUV he just had to have. He wanted to buy it that very day (Saturday) in the middle of the afternoon. I questioned him about it and he mumbled some excuse. And he'll watch golf on Saturday afternoon, but complains if our kids ride their bikes!!
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol 2

From a non SDA; so that's how they get past the unquencable fire???

My son-in-law gave me a video once about Hell but it didn't finish up right so I never really got the punch line of how there is really no Hell.

I told him the video didn't finish and he said ya I know something happened when he taped it but didn't offer to fill me in on details that were lelft out. I wonder now some 4 years older and wiser if this was just a cover up for the detail he didn't want me to see and thought I would get hooked on the "smooth" talk of Doug Batchleor. He doesn't realize that advocate spoken of in 1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

is alive and well and working 7-24 in my life, Carol
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey all you fun loving formers I'm off for the weekend to some peace and quiet at the lake, so don't have too much fun. Save some space for a response from me when I get back Monday morning.

My son has a lap top but we haven't figured out how to get the internet out there "yet".

Have a great weekend and every DAY because we know the one and only not that we are the one and only, Carol
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My goodness, Madelia, I used to agonize over my Sabbath-keeping. I never knew exactly what to do. My mom (who was raised by a European-immigrant mother who was converted in Europe and didn't have as solid a base in EGW as did the American SDAs) insisted that God would rather have us clean on Sabbath than not, so if she wasn't quite finished washing the kitchen floor when the sun dropped on Friday (her homemade bread and Sabbath dinner already having been made, mind you), she went ahead and finished. She also let us bathe on Friday night or Sabbath a.m.

I had a good friend in jr. high who did footwashing with me one Sabbath. She apologized for the dirt on her legs; the sun had gone down before she'd had time for a bath. My mom had no trouble pronouncing that unnecessarily vigilant; cleanliness was more important to God than the edges of the Sabbath. Yet I remember her talking with my aunt in hushed, disapproving tones about a mutual acquaintance who had the temerity to bake blueberry muffins for Sabbath breakfast--on Sabbath morning!

I can remember literally agonizing over my thoughts which strayed onto secular topics during the holy hours, and begging God to forgive me. A pretty neurotic bunch we were!

Praise God for FREEDOM--and happy Sabbath rest to you all!

Colleen
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A pretty neurotic bunch we were!


ROFL..............LOL...........Yep, that sums us up!!!
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 6:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THIS
(A poem from RBC Ministries devotional today)

His grace is sufficient for this.
I wasn't quite sure it would be;
And often I've quaked at the thought
That this thing could happen to me.

But now in a special new way
I know He's enough, come what may;
This trial is surely not bliss,
But His grace is sufficient for this.

His grace is sufficient for this,
And therefore for other things too;
And so I can face without fear,
The things that He tells me to do.

I was about to leave for church and thought I would give you this poem to start your day. It's all about grace.

God bless,
Janice
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,

When I grew up, I had no sense of humor. When I was converted to Christ at the age of 17, I developed a very strong sense of humor virtually overnight.

When I became an Adventist, my sense of humor was virtually non-existent. I became dead emotionally and remained that way for 15-18 years.

Over the last 2 to 3 years, the Lord has been giving me my emotions back.

And then, joy of all joys, just this year, my sense of humor has begun to return in a big way. Jesus has been doing a lot of healing in my life on many, many issues over the past 3 years, but this year, it seems that He's intent on making me a joyful person again.

I don't know why He chooses to do things in the order in which He does, but I praise Him for all He has done and is doing in my life.

Steve
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra and others, isn't it nice to be able to laugh about it now? I remember my hubby being chewed out at a church board meeting for being out in the parking lot after church admiring a single members' new car. The real problem was that they....gasp...had the hood up! Apparently it would have been okay to look at the car, you just couldn't raise the hood!

Our son went to a Pathfinder campout about 6 years after we had left the local church. He came back thorougly disgusted. It seems that there was one of "those" women in a group camped next to them. The kids in Dan's group had dared to throw a frisbee back and forth on the Sabbath. This was simply not allowed! "OH, I get it now," said our son, "the only appropriate activity on the sabbath is BOREDOM!"

Steve, I remember an interesting thing happening at church one Sunday. It was during a worship service and I had stopped worshipping for a bit (to wipe away a tear) and was just looking around at all the raised hands with the people joyfully singing some praise song. I was struck for a moment with the weight of the personal stories I'd heard from several of the people: not only the salvation stories, but deliverance from drugs and alcohol, deliverance from sexual addictions, healing of soul hurts...These folks were singing from their very souls! They were FREE!

And suddenly I got this picture in my mind of, I guess you'd call it the throne room of heaven. Thousands of people were there joyfully singing their thanksgiving, but w-a-a-a-y off to the side...out skulking in the shadows of the pillars of the room stood this tight little cluster of gloomy little SDA's glucking their tongues at such a shameful display. I just lost it! Was giggling so hard my eyes teared up.

You know, there are things you could just never ever make an SDA understand.....like how it really was appropriate, and didn't distract at all from the service, today for our pastor to pause in his sermon on freedom from guilt in the Christians life to break into a little dance to the "ghost busters" (or as he said, the "guilt buster") theme song. He'd already made the point of repenting, and don't do those things anymore, etc. and was discussing those who continue to carry feelings of guilt after the Lord has already forgiven them. (Hm, that just wouldn't work as an SDA is supposed to keep feeling guilty, I suppose.) Freedom oh yes! So glad to hear your joy is restored too, Steve, and we ain't ever goin' back there again!, right?
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right!
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, I found that my newfound freedom has actually been used of God to help me feel more compassion and less resentment towards those SDA's who continue to believe what you and I have found to be a lie. I have come to agree with many on this forum who have said that the only hope is in the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus and remove the blinders. About all we can do in the meantime is pray for them and reveal Jesus to them by our own joy in Him at every opportunity. I pray that they will see that they are clearly missing out on something in their own walk with the Savior. I pray that He continues to remove blinders that remain over my own eyes as well. Jesus IS the Truth!
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, what a wonderful thing God is doing in you! It makes me really happy.

Speaking of freedom or the lack of it reminds me of the funeral we attended this last week. So many long skirts, eager but tense faces, and that sort-of haunted look that charcterizes so many conservative, earnest Adventists.

Two things stand out in my mind. First, the homily was about God being a Father to the fatherless. Great topic, but the way to become close to God, according to the pastor, was to ask him to be close and tell him you want to be close. In fact, he said, he's now the convinced the reason Jesus was successful in his ministry was because the Father was there with him.

I realized at that point what the problem was: he was saying we could go straight to the Father and ask for an intimate relationship. There was no talk of going to Jesus, repenting of our sins, and accepting his gift as the way to the Father. Rather, Jesus was successful because the Father was near, and the Father can also be near to us if we ask him to be. It was a sort-of un-deifying of Jesus and a complete evasion of the necessity of Jesus as the means to being close to God.

The second thing that stands out in my mind was the large drawing of Ellen and James White and several other founding fathers hanging over the platform of the chapel. Interesting church decoration---

I an so very greatful for Jesus and his redemption of our lives and circumstances and memories!

Colleen
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just one verse to echo what Colleen said:


Quote:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.




No matter how Adventists try to deny it, there are echoes and subtexts of Arian theology throughout the current teachings of the SDA church.

What Colleen heard, is yet another in a long list of allusions to the reduced deity of Christ. This is one of the worst heresies in Christendom. It is, without a doubt, a denial of the Gospel message and a theological deceit.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I can say no other.
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent, Jerry.

I believe that you're correct. The "reduced deity of Christ"..."one of the worst heresies in Christendom." Perhaps it's the WORST heresy. All other heresies spring from an incorrect belief regarding the deity of Christ and the Trinity.

Colleen, isn't it sad to go to a funeral and see more dead people than you thought would be there?

Adventist funerals are like going to a slaughterhouse. No one comes out alive.

Steve
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How to observe the Sabbath is not consistant with the sda members. When my son was in the second grade at the sda school he had two best friends. We invited one to spend Saturday afternoon with us. The mom asked me what I had planned for the afternoon and I told her I'd take the boys to the zoo. Then she wouldn't allow her child to be with us if we were going to the zoo because it coasts admission to get into the zoo and it was against her religion to spend money on the Sabbath. So, I just took the boys to the lake and let them play. The next week my son invited his other best friend to spend the afternoon and his mother asked me what our plans were and I told her to take the kids to the zoo. This childs father was a decon and even served as an assoicate pastor on occassion. His mother said it was wonderful to go see the animals that God has given us and even gave me extra money so I could get the kids snacks at the snack bar. Growing up I was not allowed to enjoy man-made pleasures on the sabbath but was allowed to enjoy God-made pleasures on the sabbath. Like, I was not allowed to swim in a swimming pool but could swim in the ocean. It just dosen't make any sense at all. Recently my mom asked me when I'm down in Southeran California over the weekends if I go to church ever on Sabbath. I told her I always try to. She then asked me what church i go to. I told her St. Timothy's Lutheran. I then learned that attending a Lutheran church on Saturday does not count because "Lutherans don't KEEP THE SABBATH". Last week she asked me to tell her about the ladies I work with. I told her one lady is chatting alot about how much her children like their kids group at church and that every Saturday her in-laws pick up her kids and take them to church and the kids really look forward to going to church with their grandparents. My mom perked up and said, "Oh, that's wonderful that they go to church on Sabbath. What church do they go to"? She didn't say it but I think she just assumed they must be sda. Then I told her they attend Our Lady of the Hills Catholic Church. My mom clampled her lips tight in disgust and then let me know that it is the work of Satan that so many non-Sabbath-keeping churchs are now meeting for their weekly worship on the Sabbath. That it is making it appear to people that they are worshipping on the right day but since they really don't have "the Sabbath truth" that it is satan making it seem to people that they are doing right but they are being decived. It was really goofy.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Steve,about dead people at an Adventist funeral!

Susan, you're also right about Adventists not really accepting another denomination's Saturday worship. Bottom line: people have to accept Adventism in order for Sabbath really to mean what it's supposed to mean! While Sabbath is the dominant doctrine, the others are just as important and have just as powerful a hold upon an Adventist's soul.
EGW is really the ultimate Adventist doctrine. If an Adventist really admits that she is a false prophet, all the other doctrines ultimately tumble.

Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,

Excellent summation of an Adventist funeral--well said. A devout SDA lady told my wife recently that their pastor died. Knowing my wife no longer believed in the heresy of soul sleep and conditionalism, she stated emphatically, "He's DEAD, DEAD!"

Sadly, according to that unbiblical view, no part of him awaits the resurrection--he is nonexistent, GONE! There is no continuity of personhood; the best they can do is argue for personal remembrance (like a fallen sparrow).

In His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good analogy, Dennis. It reminds me of something our pastor said today. He is preaching on the book of Romans (he admits he doesn't know how long it will take!), and he was dealing with Romans 1:13-21 today.

At one point he said in reference to God pouring out his wrath on wicked people who supress the truth about God (I am paraphrasing here since I can't remember everything word for word!) that God tells us what he is like and what he does. He went on to say that he knows such a fact will be uncomfortable for people who say, "The God I worship would never judge or destroy."

"Where does it say that in the Bible?" he challenged with passion. God tells us what he will do, and if we choose not to believe it, we're worshiping an idol--we have made God in our image.

It certainly brought to mind the many times I've heard Adventists say the God they worship would never punish a person in eternal hell.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

That is a question that brings us to the next "logical" conclusion: the Bible can't be literally true. If it were, we'd have to admit that God is like the Bible says he is!

I praise God for his word and for the Holy Spirit who brings it to life in our spirits!

Colleen
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, The SDAs are so subtle in their teachings that they will even tell you that "yes, the Bible is the infallible word of God", BUT it can only be seen through a prophet's eyes, and in the case of SDAs, unless Ms. White translated it HER WAY, it is a closed book to the rest of the world, it is only for the REMNANT which is composed entirely of SDAs, most of which are converted from other Christian religions like my mother and sister who were just too spiritually ignorant to see her for what she is A FALSE PROPHET and until the day comes that the veil is lifted, they WILL NOT see it.

The SDAs think they have the right prophet, but so do the JWs, the Mormons, the Muslims, the Buddha worshipers, the New Agers and all the others who have been led away captive because they can't endure SOUND doctrine that is being preached in all the other Christian churches throughout the world.

As a Baptist, I can say that I don't agree with a lot of the practices and beliefs of other denominations but can still know a fellow believer when I come into contact with one, amen. Just because I don't believe in speaking in tongues, or maybe don't agree with certain dress codes, and I may differ with you on how, when, and why you should baptized but that doesn't mean that you are not my brother/sister in Christ. If we have accepted Christ as our savior and have the indwelling of his spirit in our hearts, this should draw us into a UNITY that Paul constantly preached about in all his letters to the early churches, so, this should be our goal: to find out whether or not a soul has Jesus, the tree is known by the fruit it bears and if no change is seen when a person claims Christ, then they probably didn't get him at all, but since we can never really know a person's heart, well, what a tangled up mess the devil has made of it all is all that I can say.

I will go insane if I stay focused on the negative instead of the positive, so, I just want to be found doing the work of an evangelist, after all, it is our profession as children of God. My mother even told me once that as far as reaching my other sister who is an alcoholic is concerned, I should just do as the Lord says and "shake the dust from my feet and get on with my life and forget about her."

Like I just posted, it is a puzzle as to how I was raised by my mother but now feel the need to raise her up spiritually. For years mama fought against my sister while defending her Baptist faith but now chimes "I will never go back to my old way of thinking again." So, Colleen, what else can we do but continue to pray for them?

I know that many get tired of hearing me quote from Romans 8:28 but it is my "reality check" that sometimes is the ONLY thing that keeps me sane, and even that has been called into question by my sister. Why would anyone think of you as insane when you write to warn them about the very thing that God told us to warn them about?

That is what Ezekiel 33 is all about, we are suppose to warn of the devil and his devices! We are to take solemn warning too when we are told that Satan can APPEAR as as angel of light and also heed the warning that the demons can look like "ministers of righteousness" and how about what the Bible says where God tells us that his word is NOT OF ANY MAN'S PRIVATE INTERPRETATION?

God's word can only be interpreted and understood through the discernment of the indwelt Holy Spirit and when I see my family just "NOT GETTING IT" then I ask God WHO are they listening to? Are they grieving the indwelt Holy Spirit or do they even have him living in their hearts? When I read in the word that IF a man says he loves God and hates his brother, he is a LIAR and the TRUTH is not in him, then I begin a line of reasoning that asks this question: If Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life, and my family resents (hates) what I preach to them, then do they have the TRUTH (Jesus)in their hearts or have they simply fallen from grace? How can someone say that Jesus is their best friend and then continue to be so venemous to their sister? It is dangerous to fall from grace and could even lead to a premature death, and this is what the SDAs are doing when they hear the gospel preached, supposedly receive the gift of salvation and then give it all away when they hear a lie from a false prophet just because it SOUNDS good to them. It doesn't sound good to me at all to claim liberty in Christ and once again be entangled by the law that the very word of God says WE CANNOT KEEP, the very laws that the Bible plainly says were abolished to make way for a more "glorious" way and that way is Jesus and only Jesus. Only by the blood of the lamb are we able to stand before God, and my righteousness is like a filthy rag in God's sight. It is sobering to read Hebrews 10, and I fear for my SDA family when I read this chapter and until they accept the fact that their efforts are vain and useless, they will still be fearing God when they come to the end of the ages and will be looking for shelter in the mountains of Tennessee and the Carolinas instead of listening for the trumphet that calls out the church. Why would anyone want to deny the rapture is my big question? Why refuse the comfort that this revelation brings to one's heart?

I just know that when my church is preaching about love and unity and being of the same mind, I can't help but cry over the lost fellowship with my family and can't help but wonder "are they or are they not truly saved?" It is and it is not my place to question them, so, this is the true dilemna with only one answer, I have to pray like they are lost and then leave it to God, amen.

Janice
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,

Happy Memorial Day!

Colleen & Janice,

I have a book sponsored by Global Mission, General Conference of Seventh-day Sdventists, Silver Spring, Maryland, USA. Printed in 1993, Borge Schantz is one of the editors. I heard him speak at General Conference 1990, then later found this book at an ABC.

It provides some amazing light onto the official position of the SDA church regarding the inspiration of the Bible and EGW.

The title of the book should have been (if they are Christians) titled The Cross and the Crescent. But of course, they named it, THE THREE ANGELS AND THE CRESCENT: A READER.

Now hear this: The cross is not opposed to the crescent, but the three angels are!

In the section titled "Ellen G. White and Muhammad: A Study in the Prophetic Call" some of the following statements are made.

Pg. 120, author Hugh Dunton makes this startling announcement, referring to John 1:14. After explaining that the language of revelation is not a critical factor, nor confined to a particular language, he states, "The incarnational model of Scripture is that God's Word can appear among people in a familiar and intelligible guise, an extension of John 1:14."

Yeah, it's an extension alright. That passage literally refers to Jesus, the Word of God, among us in the flesh. The Word of God, and the written Word of God, although both declaring Jesus as Truth, should not be confused. John 1:14 does not say anything about the Bible being translated into various languages.

This could be a serious starting point on the way to demoting Jesus from His rightful position as God in human flesh. Especially, with some of the following statements.

"Ellen White clearly denied verbal inspiration for the Bible or for herself, and pointed out the difference between common matters and spiritual issues [LIE*]. She encouraged translation and authorised compilations of her work {Document File 254.}

* She ALWAYS treated common matters with more seriousness than spiritual issues. (Sorry, I'll try to keep my editorializing to a minimum.)

Referring to the Koran, he quotes another author {Glasse, 231} "It is a fundamental doctrine of Islam that the Koran, as the speech of God, is eternal and untreated in its essence and sense, ..." The text is regarded by Islamic believers, including devout scholars, "as immutable and unchangeable, not metaphorically or symbolically, but literally. Even Muhammad could not change a word in it."

NOTE: THIS IMPLIES THAT WRITERS OF THE BIBLE COULD CHANGE A WORD IN IT IF THEY DESIRED! Another lie.

Then, the author subtly equates Jesus with EGW. He says, "Muhammad may have been influenced by, or should we rather say, built upon, pre-existing systems, but Jesus and certainly Ellen White did not start from nothing."

(Jesus and CERTAINLY EGW? I guess they're not certain about Jesus, but they are certain about EGW!)

Regarding stimuli for their visions [Mohammad & EGW] the author states, "Ellen White did not need external human stimuli to induce a vision." **

**LIE Her husband and others manipulated her frequently to obtain specific "views."

Now let's see how SDAs really view EGW. They will often say that "she's not a prophet, she's a messenger." This quote lays that to rest.

"Ellen White did not deny the prophetic gift, but HER WORK ENCOMPASSED MUCH MORE THAN THAT OF A PROPHET***... As the words came direct from Allah, Muhammad was spared the task, which Ellen White found difficult, of putting thoughts from God into human speech."

***Emphasis mine. Yeah, she found it difficult alright. She had no idea what God's thoughts were, so of course it was "difficult."

"Ellen White recognised that she was not a scholar, and her first writing was corrected for spelling and grammar by James White... Some literary assistants, notably Marian Davis [AND OTHERS!!!], were more than correctors of spelling and grammar. Marian 'is my bookmaker', responsible for the compilation of earlier Ellen White writings to form new books. This work was done under the guidance of Ellen White herself, but the greatest Ellen White classics combine the inspiration of Ellen White plus the industry, but not the thoughts, of Marian Davis."

Do SDAs equate the writings of EGW with the Bible? According to the following statement, they do!

"Ellen White vigorously rebutted the idea that there are degrees of inspiration in the Bible, which would incidentally have suggested different degrees of inspiration within her own writings."... "...and her work is not to be used to demonstrate or support Adventist beliefs to non Adventists."

EGW = Scripture
EGW Writings = Support SDA doctrines AMONG SDAs.
(I believe I'm being logical here.)

Was Ellen White or Mohammad the "last prophet?"

The author states, "Ellen White did not claim to be the last of the prophets, though she was THE prophet of the end time." [Emphasis mine]

THE prophet of the end-time. He didn't say, "One of the prophets of the end-time."

The Prophet of the End-Time = The Last Prophet

Under a sub-section titled "Are prophets bound by their own regulations?" the author states:

Ellen White was not as rapid and thorough as she might have been in adopting vegetarianism. Part of the problem was her frequent travelling, where one had to eat what was available. It took time to define clean and unclean, or healthy and unhealthy, using the distinctions of Leviticus 11 as a guide."

Why didn't it take just a few weeks or months to determine clean and unclean? Oh, yeah. She had a 3rd grade education. She was too busy preaching her views to be able to read the Bible and see what it plainly says.

(Please note: This is NOT a slam against folks with a 3rd grade education. It is a SLAM against EGW's inability to understand scripture, identify what God has said, and preach THAT. She was too busy with her own ideas.)

SDAs today don't eat meats or unclean meats if they're offered, even if they're travelling. As a frequent traveller for a large computer company for many years, our internal travel agency had my flight meal and conference meal arrangements taken care of in advance for me.

Vegetarian and (especially) Kosher in-flight meals must be the worst form of self-abuse (oops, don't want to steal that one away from EGW) I mean, self-torture. It was ALWAYS awful.

At the end of this segment, the author states:

"So both Islam and Adventism, through the influence of Ellen White, represent a complete tradition, a way of life. The lives of the followers of Christ must be consonant with their professed beliefs. Mahatma Gandhi's problem - extraordinary claims and ordinary lives - is still with us."

I guess that Adventism represents a complete tradition. Forget the prior 1800 years, folks.

And, another Adventist referring to Mahatma Gandhi as a man full of truth. He was Hindu, NOT Christian. Hindus only believe in Jesus as ONE OF MANY MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD. They do not believe that He was the one and only begotten son of God.

Let's not use Hindus as sources of truth, or interpreters of our lives and beliefs. I'd rather trust a Christian any day, than what an unbeliever has to say.

Although Gandhi made a profound accusation, no one realizes that this is exactly what is TRUE about Christianity.

___________________________________________________

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS by Jesus, the Son of God and God the Son, and His blood shed on the cross...

...applied to ORDINARY LIVES of billions of people around the globe throughout all of human history.
___________________________________________________

(This not Mahatma Gandhi's problem. It is the TRUTH of the Christian message.

It appears that the truth of the Christian message IS A PROBLEM for the SDA church.)

Finally:

EGW does NOT equal Jesus, General Conference of SDAs says she does.

EGW writings do NOT equal scripture. General Conference of SDAs says they do.

Adventism does NOT represent "the complete Christian tradition." General Conference of SDAs says it does.

The words of scripture could NOT be changed by the various writers. General Conference of SDAs says they could and did.

We CAN find FRAGMENTS of truthful statements in other religions. General Conference regularly uses other religions AS truth to point out how "bad" we Generic Christians are.

Sorry, GC of SDA. I'll take Jesus, you can have EGW. I'll take the Bible AS IT IS, you can have EGW. I'll take Christ's cross, you can have the "three angels."

Steve
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fascinating, Steve. (Oh, and thanks for the humor here and there--stealing self-abuse from EGW, indeed! It's quite amazing how many inside jokes formers can have, isn't it?!)

All of this reminds me of an interview I did with Jerry Whitehouse a few years ago. He's the director of Muslim relations for the GC of SDAs. (Or he was then--is he still?) At any rate, the SDA approach to converting Muslims was/is to go and live among them in their own culture, living and dressing like them and winning their trust and making friends. They use the Koran to show the Muslims their similar beliefs: Abraham, clean and unclean meats, etc.

Gradually, over the years, as they worship and live with the Muslims, sharing many lifestyle and belief similarities, they introduce Jesus. Some Muslims accept Jesus, but, as Jerry said, they don't have to stop being Muslim. Since Allah is the same God as ours (or theirs, meaning the SDAs), they don't have to give up their Muslim beliefs. They just have to accept Jesus, and they can be Christians, too!

Actually, they ultimately introduce Sabbath, I believe, but the most important thing for them was to get them to accept Jesus. Jerry did indicate that there was some winking on the part of the GC when it came to how strictly they expected these converted Muslims to observe traditional Adventist practices (Sabbath?) before baptism. By accepting Jesus inside their Muslim culture, they have not just God but Jesus too.

I used to be confused about the whole process, but I couldn't identify the real problem. I bought the line that Allah and God the Father are the same. I remember about two years ago hearing our pastor's wife tell about her trip to United Arab Emeretz and stating that Muslims worship a different God. Allah, she said, is not the one true God; Allah does not include Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I remember what a sense of clarity and relief I felt.

I finally understood that once again the Adventist position sounds good and seems logical, but it's founded--again--on a false premise. Allah is not the true God! None of this is to say that Muslims can't actually find true freedom in Jesus from being introduced to him, but accepting Jesus using Adventist and Muslim common ground as the logic base for accepting him still leaves those poor people claiming and living in a cult--overlaid by another!

I'll echo you, Steve: "I'll take the cross; you can have the three angels!"

Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll take the cross too. Yes, indeed, the God of the Koran and the God of the Bible are two different deities. The Muslim God denies that Jesus ever went to the cross for us, so obviously the two religions do NOT share the same God.

The foremost Christian scholar on Islamic studies is Dr. Robert A. Morey. Simply enter his name in your favorite search engine (mine currently is Google)to visit several of his websites.


By the way, he is also the author of DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, a classic book on the topic of death. You can also listen to his presentations at major church events. He is an excellent speaker; you will be blessed to hear any of his lectures.

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