| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Nate! I'm Lori and I've been Adventist-free since October 1999. It is JUST LIKE a grieving process!! When you finally take off the blinders and accept the reality of Scripture it is a death that happens--it's the death of salvation by works. But like you said you feel so much healthier when you finally die to yourself and are re-born solely in Christ. I've read some of your posts. And, I've prayed for you regarding your decision. May the Holy Spirit be your guide in whatever do. Lori | ||
| Colleentinker |
Yes, I read the Park in Time article, too. In fact, I read it a couple of years ago when I was still working for Adventist Today and the magazine's editor wrote it. I had some pretty strong reactions to it even then. First, when a person understands that the Sabbath is about Jesus and not about time, the premise of that article seems almost heretical. I've come to understand Sabbath as living continuously in the rest of Jesus. My entire life is fuller and richer and more peaceful than at any time when I kept the Sabbath. I actually have a sense of the presence of God in my life as I go through my days. Formerly, the presence of God was a theory, an intellectual assent. To call the Sabbath an empty space in time for us to fill with things of God is putting ourselves in the position of lord of the Sabbath. Jesus fills us himself, and that filling, that rest in his presence, is Sabbath. When we call Sabbath an empty space in time we reduce the eternal reality of being in Christ to simply thinking about him on one day out of seven when we happen to have "time" to think. By the way, remember that Sabbath School song, "One, two, three, four, five, six for usÖthe seventh is for Jesus"? That really seems blasphemous to me now. All seven days are his--not just one. All eternity is his, not merely time. We experience Jesus inside our life in time, but when we are born again, we also experience him in eternity in our souls. A weekly day to worship is a good thing, but it is not about Sabbath. Sabbath is Jesus. A weekly day is a way to manage our time, but it is not how we meet Christ. We meet Christ in our spirits. We meet Christ in every decision we make and every crisis we face. We meet Christ when we acknowledge the Holy Spirit living in us. Focusing on the Sabbath as a central distinctive is really quite a powerful deception. The one covenant sign of the Old Testament that directly foretold the salvation rest in Christ was the Sabbath. For one day out of seven the Israelites had to stay in their tents and do nothing, even during harvest and planting seasons. Neither they nor their pagan neighbors would be able to credit them with their success. Their success would have to be attributed to their God. Sabbath has always been about God's rest, not about our obedience to an arbitrary command. Sabbath is still about God's rest--and we are inside it because Jesus has redeemed us and mended the rip in the universe, sin, that kept us apart from him. I am so thankful for Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Hi. My name is Sherry and I'm a recovering former (never to be again) Adventist. :) You know I think me being a part of 12 step groups since I was 15 was really a blessing for me in leaving the church. Your consistently looking to be honest with yourself and God and to depend on Him, not yourself. Sort-of set the ground work for me to look honestly at my SDA background. Anyhow, I totally know your shock, horror, and anger, Nate. Last May when I got Walter Rae's book, and saw the plagerism side by side with the originals, I was inflamed, angry, and boy did I do a lot of crying. As much as I hated some of her writings, I was loyal to her message, and the guilt that I had from reading her only boiled down to my sinfulness, and my need to change. Fortunately 5 years before leaving SDAism, I had done some pretty thorough Bible studying on what a false prophet is v. true prophet of God. These texts God brought back to my remembrance when it was time to put EGW to the firing test. It is amazing to me how even some of the things that she wrote that were Biblically wrong, we will justify, rationalize and somehow make them work into being OK.... You know what was really funny? Knowing the stance on cheese that she had, and later after leaving the church, I was just shocked to read that David brought his brothers cheese. It's things as simple as that that you totally miss in Scripture because you are seeing through someone else's glasses, not God's. It is a grieving process, and by golly, go ahead and grieve, and let God heal your soul. I found that for months I would just break down in tears at other churches when I heard the Gospel and such. I was just overcome with the pain SDAism had in my life, and the grace that was mine now that I understood it. God blessings to you, Nate! I don't get Ad. Re. but I still get the Lake Union Herald. It was disheartening (but then not surprising) to see people like me listed as apostacies. But then if they aren't truly preaching the Gospel of Christ, then I guess, I could take joy in it that indeed I have left "that type of faith" for 100% faith in Christ. | ||
| Christianbiker |
Hi! I'm the Christianbiker from the North. I've not been on the forum for a month or more and just happened to check in tonight. I can identify with all of your feelings regarding leaving the SDA church. My wife and I have had a small group of 7-8 at our home all winter studying Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Crisis". What a wonderful time we have had. It has been church in the best possible way. Many of us are experiencing very difficult trials at present, that are drawing us so close to Jesus and each other. We've experienced the whole gamet of feelings. Some feel strongly they must make a clean break from Adventism ,and others want to stay in the church we have attended to try and help others in their journey to understand the N Covenant gospel. We have a deep since of peace that God's spirit is leading us and we want to be obedient to His leading. Some are experienceing deep mourning over the thought of leaving their friends and the denomination and they have not as yet found a church to replace their little SDA church. I have been very involved with Christian Motorcycle Ministry for several years and have enjoyed worshiping with my brothers and sisters in Christ in many different denominations so its not as difficult perhaps for me, even though I was the pastor of their SDA church for a number of years before I resigned. I have been on the journey away from legalism, longer than they have. I just have such peace about the direction God is leading me and I know in my heart I will one day officially have my membership dropped. This little SDA church has been far away from main-line adventism for a number of years ,so for me it is just a matter of officially having my name dropped. I love the people that attend as I was their pastor for 8 years ,and I know most of them have not taken the time to really study what they believe. EGWhite has been on the back burner for years with most and with some she has been totally off the stove and in the garbage. Yes I to realize that the SDA denomination is trying desperately to bring the people back into line of the 60's kind of legalism. This is a natural thing to do if you are loosing as many members as you are gaining in NA. I just praise God for how the internet is being used to inform people of what has gone on and is going on within the leadership. Church leaders cannot hide things very easy these days. In my journey the bible has come to be like a book I cannot get enough of. God is showing me things I could not believe I did not see with my SDA glasses on. Praise God that he is so patient with us and wants so much to share his heart with us. Blessings to you all! | ||
| Lori |
Christian Biker you said, "...I know most of them have not taken the time to really study what they believe. EGWhite has been on the back burner for years with most and with some she has been totally off the stove and in the garbage." That statement defined me as an Adventist!!! I believed what I believed because that was what I was told was the truth--the remnant church truth!! I had never read enough of my Bible myself to know what the Bible really said. I had not believed in the prophecy of Ellen White since 1980 but I held to the the fact that my beliefs were still Biblical with out EGW writings. It wasn't until 1997 when I began reading my Bible that I began to finally see what the Bible REALLY said. Of course, my reading was still clouded by "SDA glasses". But nonetheless, I was reading the Biblical truth and it contradicted my Adventist unbringing and after many months of being positive to what the Bible said the false doctrines began to crumble. As the false doctrines crumbled my foundation of faith in Christ began to grow and I began to see what Grace really meant FOR ME! My point is, and I realize you already know this, a person can have EGW in the trash and never realize that the Adventist doctrines belong there too! The key to it all is personal time in God's word DAILY. Daily searching the scriptures for truth. Daily seeking God. Daily "eating" of God's word. That's the only way these people are going to find the truth--they are going to have to search for it themselves. Sure, we may be the catalyst that causes them to start that search but ultimately it has to be their search. And, I join you as you say "Praise God that he is so patient with us"!!! Thanks for sharing your experience, Lori | ||
| Sherry2 |
I just had a thought this morning. Jesus, when questioned about breaking the Sabbath, pointed to David and the shewbread, and then to the priests who break the Sabbath and are guiltless.... something popped in my head while I was thinking about this. When SDA's say Jesus couldn't have broken the Sabbath, and remained our redeemer because he would have sinned, this is wrong according to Scripture. If the priests could break it and be held guiltless, then certainly the Priest of all priests can break the Sabbath and be found guiltless. And only if this Sabbath law is not = to the Royal Law of Love...a moral law. Wow!! It's just another text that just shows the Sabbath law is not equal to other laws. It just amazes me the gymnastics we use to explain away a text when the plain reading is so clear. It's amazing to have God teach us through His Spirit and just have things pop into your head like that. Anyhow, I hope that helps someone today. It helped me. :) | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Sherry, As usual, I disagree ;-). Jesus on at least two occasions put the rhetorical question to the Pharisees "is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath?" The implication of this question is that his Sabbath activities were lawful, not violative of the Sabbath. It's pretty obvious that God built in some exceptions to the Sabbath work requirement, like the aforementioned preists and allowing people to leave their homes to worship at the gate on Sabbath (Ezekiel 46). Jesus' actions outlined the scope of these exceptions, but didn't do away with the Sabbath entirely. We don't see anywhere that He was in the carpenter shop on the Sabbath, for example. Also, the work of the human priests was very limited in scope, administering to the Temple. That doesn't mean that any work by us (kingdom of priests) on the Sabbath is OK. | ||
| Sherry2 |
It's really hard to let go of a position when your eternity depends on it, I understand that. Been there, done that. Standing on Jesus alone now, the True Sabbath. | ||
| Sherry2 |
It's really hard to let go of a position when your eternity depends on it, I understand that. Been there, done that. Standing on Jesus alone now, the True Sabbath. | ||
| Violet |
When Jesus was in the carpenter shop was that before or after He said "It is finished"? | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, great insight! Last year the week before Easter I was showing the Matthew video by The Visual Bible to my English classes, That meant I watched the four-hour production five times in one week. Seeing and hearing the words of the gospel so frequently really brought some things to my awareness. One was this: During the conversation Jesus had with the Pharisees during which they were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath and he referred to David and his men "breaking the law" by eating the shewbread, he ends by saying that one stood among them who was greater than the temple. It had bothered me for some time that Jesus didn't end the confusion and say, "One stands among you who is greater than the Sabbath." When I heard those words coming out of the mouth of the actor playing Jesus, it compelled me to think about what was going on. Here's what I finally realized. In this conversation Jesus is pointing out to the Pharisees that David broke the law. The law resided INSIDE the temple. The temple, of course, was the most sacred place in Israel. Here was Jesus discussing Sabbath observance with Pharisees who revered their temple. He didn't merely say he was greater than the Sabbath. He went beyond that. He said he was greater than the TEMPLE! The temple is OUTSIDE the law. The law was IN the temple. Jesus is saying he's not only greater than the law, he's greater than the temple. He Is the Temple! By logical comparison, the true law is INSIDE him. The law on stone, the temple--all these were shadows pointing to the reality--Christ. (Col 2:16) I used to think that when Jesus said he was Lord of the Sabbath that was analogous to Elizabeth being Queen of the British Isles. The Sabbath, a large eternal reality, was presided over by Jesus who was Lord of it. I realized that my understanding had been wrong. The Sabbath was not a large eternal reality outside Jesus over which he had authority, like Elizabeth has authority (more or less!) over some geography. Quite the contrary; Jesus is the large, eternal reality. Sabbath rest is In Him! He is greater than the temple; all law, all reality, all Sabbath rest is In Him! He is Lord of the Sabbath because he is outside and the source of Sabbath rest. The Sabbath is not about time; it's about Jesus doing our work, paying our price, and we can come to him and rest. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Chuckiej |
Here's a link to an excellent discussion of how Jesus used contemporary Jewish exegetical techniques (halacha) to validate his actions on the Sabbath. http://www.nazarene.net/_halacha/Shabbat.htm A link for every occasion, that's me! ;-) | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I just visited www.truthorfables.com and found a discussion about a book that had been written by D.M. Canright and thought it was very interesting, so, I thought I would copy the one statement that he made concerning his book, he said: This book is not written to convert Adventists, but to defend our own faith. If they would let our members alone, we would say nothing; but we would be recreant to our duty if we kept still while they publicly denounce us as pagans and papists and then go from house to house among our Christian members with their literature and Bible readings to proselyte them to their erroneous views. I will say that this could very well be the basis for all of the web sites that have been dedicated to sending out the truth to all of those who frequent the Internet. The first thing that I noticed was different in the SDA faith was that they DO NOT preach the gospel of grace and also, I have told my Adventist family that from everything that I had read of their's, it appears that the SDAs are far more concerned with "converting" God's children who have ALREADY accepted their adoption into God's family than going out with the gospel of Christ to win those in the world who are still LOST and in need of hearing the gospel plan of salvation. The statement made above by Canright seems to agree with my thoughts on the subject. I hope that all of you who read my post concerning the Roman Road have checked those scriptures out in detail, and it was my hope that those who may have not been sure of what salvation, SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, was all about will now have it clearly etched in their minds so that they hopefully can use those scriptures to lead a lost soul to Christ. We should never be satisfied living our lives with people who we know in our hearts are "just" being religious. I truly believe that by presenting just those few scriptures, and asking those who are presented with it to be in agreement with you that the Holy Spirit speak to their hearts while also agreeing together that Satan and his demons be bound, you will certainly plant the seed necessary for spiritual growth. Just pray that God will keep the devil out of that freshly tilled soil long enough for the truth to take root and grow. I know God's word is true, so, just keep this final thought in mind while continuing to grow in your faith: Phl 4:13-I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Praying for all, Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'm glad you found Canright, Janice. He has been severly misrepresented by the Adventists, claiming he recanted on his deathbed from his rejection of Adventism. He has also been presented as a liar and one whose testimony could not be believed. In fact, he had been an Adventist, but he left, returning at least once or twice when the Whites pressured him to return. He finally left for good, and he did not recant. His books are excellent pictures of early Adventism under the direct influence of James and Ellen White. It's interesting to me how different certain people and ideas look from the outside than from the inside! Reading people's writing (as in the case of Canright) instead of reading what the church says about them changes everything. Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Yes Colleen, That is a great web site of information, isn't it? I wanted to post from one of my devotionals today, but don't want to make a long cut and paste deal so I will offer it in a web site again at www.intouch.org. It was really a good one about trials and went along with what I went through last month when I was requesting prayer for my "thorn in the flesh" and it was really something that I needed to have called to my rememberance and maybe others should check it out too. This entire month of IN TOUCH is dedicated to speaking about our "adversities" that will come to all of us as we seek to do God's will. Satan doesn't like it when we are trying to bring truth out, so, this is when he uses some people to make them do his dirty work by getting them to throw our fiery darts at the saints. This kind of tactic wounds our pride, and takes our eyes off of the Lord and makes us look in the mirror and condemn ourselves for our limitations while forgetting that we serve a God who is beyond any limitation. There is nothing in this world that God cannot do, and nothing that I can't do through his name and in his will. He can truly save the vilest of sinners, of which I am sad to say I have been and still continue to be from time to time when I forget who I am in Christ. Even though I do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, he can still be grieved when I refuse to listen to his still small voice, and a saved person can even be given over to Satan to have his body destroyed, but the word says that those back sliders are saved "even so by fire". The study of Acts, Romans, and the other epistles as well, have been such a comfort to me as they all speak about the joy, peace, and love that come only when we rest in Jesus. I have been editing the book of Acts with some of my comments for my web site and hope to be able to get it up within the month. I need a lot of prayer on it though because I am really worn out from the battle with the devil, amen. Thanks to all of you for all of those web sites that I have been gleaning such truths from. Romans 8:28 is still in the book and proving itself daily, amen. Love from Janice | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Canright's book was the last straw on this SDA camel's back. After reading it, whatever doubts had remained in my mind were gone. It was the best evidence against EGW (and, by extension, SDAism) I have seen to date. I have not looked back since I finished it. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Freeatlast, I came across Canrights book in a most divine way (I think)way. My daughter had shared her situation with a coworker about husband going to SDA church. I would like to add that she shared with her because in a way it is of a similar situation with her in that she had been in a religion that shunned her for whatever and put her at odds with her parents not being able to eat with them and the like. This religion happens to be an offshoot of my own and I have relatives in it and never knew until I started studing about the false teaching of SDA and found a wonderful new found glory and freedom that I had only touched the surface of before, that this is too is an example of false doctrine being preached to not free but to hold to what a certain sect believes. Anyway just a little background as to why they shared so easily. The person she worked with then went to a revival at a Christian Chruch and asked the speaker if he knew anything about SDA since we did not have computers at that time. He said we should get D.M. Canright's book. We looked all over for it and could not get it since it is out of print. I told my son about it and since he is a computer buff he found it on the internet and copied the whole thing. When I read it I was blown away because this was about 4-6 months into this whole thing and I had been studing my Bible constantly in every spare minute I had to be sure I knew what I believed and this book corrobarated every thing I had found on my own in my Bible alone. Another interesting thing happened because of this book. I told my son-in-law that I had a book that proves to me that this religion teaches false doctrine and he said "Who, Dale Ratzlaff"? I said no but I kept that name in my head and as I work at a bookstore found that there was such a book written by this man called the Cultic Doctrine of SDA. I sat on it for about a year all the while studing more and more and more. I then ordered it and now I was 100% sure. God works in marvelous and mysterious way His wonders to preform. I need to go now talk again later, Carol | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Carol, Ratzlaff's book also presented me with compelling, indisputable evidence that my conscience ultimately would not allow me to deny. Toss in Walter Rae, add Desmond Ford, sprinkle with Walter Martin's Froom interview of Froom, top with generous helping of Robert Sanders' website and bake in the fire of Scripture for 2 years. That's the recipe for this particular former SDA. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Freeatlast, I totally understand the effect of Canright on you. Ratzlaff was the straw that broke this SDA camel's back, to borrow your metaphor, but Canright cemented my understanding that the church and EGW were false. I know I've shared this in the past, but I have a vivid memory of my dad reading Cannright about two years before he died. You have to understand that my had been a true-blue Adventist, staunch, loyal, and involved for all of his life until the mid 80's when he began to read and question. He remained SDA until the very late 90's when he and my mom moved to California from their long-time home and joined Trinity E.V. Free church. They were both in their 70s. At any rate, my dad already had some deficits from small strokes, and he had trouble finding the words to express his thoughts. He was reading Canright, slowly because of his dimming eyes but relentlessly, and one day I was at my folks' house and my dad said, gesturing toward the book "E.G. White, Her False Claims Refuted", "She was really a wicked woman." That about summed it up, I thought! Praise God for revealing truth! Colleen | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Colleen, That is the first time I have heard of your parents and I am so glad they saw thru the deceptions of SDA. It is so precious to be able to have conversations of the glorious way God has provided for us with those who are closet and dearest, Family. Praise God for the way he brought you and Richard together on this in the same time frame and then also your parents. What a joy and I sing praises to God for it. I am reading David Depinho story and am just amazed at the scenario about half way thru and it is like I am reading something I have contemplated over and over again. Here it is being stated that since Christ did not come in 1844 there must be something that they missed so they looked futher and now: We were wrong in teaching that 1844 would be the Second Coming but we have grown in great light from God. Never once do they go to the Bible in Duet. and see that if in fact someone says something will happen and it does not then that person is a false prophet. I thought I had read all the stories but I guess I missed this one or anyway part of it. How can anyone deny the fact that this teaching of Ellen White is heritical if they read this material with an open mind. I know the anwser to that and it is that they will not read anything else than SDA and that is not the Bible like they say it is but rather The Bible plus or is it Ellen White with a little Bible thrown in to look good? And if someone asks them to read it they do not do it with an open mind but with a mind of what Ellen White's teachings has instilled in them. I praise God that Clay Peck was able to present things to David in a way that it clicked. Waiting the truth ship to come in and trusting that it will in time, Carol |
