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Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, have you been able to call or write Arleta?
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Doug,

This is a great idea!

"It would be really nice if the church could get the names of people who are homebound from a social service agency (whether they are church members or not), and then set out to help meet their needs (social, physical, financial, etc.). Isn't that what Jesus' ministry was based on."

I happen to know many who work in the confines of the social services and are Christian. Perhaps I could help in this arena? With prayers from others for God to help me, this is a great idea!

And yes, some people would be leary, but who is to say that this couldn't have some merit? As you said yourself Doug:

"Oh, what an awesome thing that would be."

May our God, Jesus the Christ Shine His Face upon you and give you much Comfort and Wisdom! This I pray in Jesus Name. amen.

Denise Gilmore
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lydell,

Neither Arleta nor myself can write too well these days. We both get our letters confused or forget how to form them.

However, I can call her but the telephone to the place she is staying is at the nurses station and not in her room. So, I don't call too often so she doesn't have to make that long journey out to the phone. She fractured her hip a few months back and is still recovering.

And she cannot call me as it is the facilities telephone. So, our contact is minimal and at best, once every 3-4 months or so.

I would love to once again, go there and visit her! You should have seen the look on her face the last time (several months ago), I showed up ::chuckle:: like a child who had just been delightfully surprised!

How beautiful she is to me. The heart of Arleta is like no other I've ever met in my entire life.

My sorely missed loved one, my "mom", my best friend, my sister in Christ for sure and my mentor in so many ways that I can never forget what Christian love is about. She is God's Own!

Thank you for asking Lydell and May our Lord Jesus the Christ, continue to work in your heart that is so uplifting and beautiful to see in your posts! In Christ Jesus Name. This I pray. amen.

In Christ, your sister always.

Denise Gilmore
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Everyone! I noticed that there have been no postings on this thread for awhile. I'm a newcomer and have been a bit shy about posting-but here goes. I came out of the SDA Church in '84 after about 10 years. But I went into an "offshoot" so to speak for another 10- and for the last few years have been in an "offshoot of an offshoot." I guess that is the best way to explain it. For less than a year now, I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about the myths and heresies of the SDA Church and I finally feel like I am free( tho some tendrils still seem to be attached). But I thank God for bringing me this far and for friends like you on this forum. My frustration is finding a church where I can fellowship and feel like the doctrines are right(after all the lies from the SDA I'm sorting this one out! ha!) and that the people care and are supportive. (Unless you have been in a cult, I'm not sure a person can completely understand,though.) I have been to over 5 different denominations and getting a bit discouraged. I have prayed for the Lord to show me in His time. Next Sunday, I plan to go to a Christian Reformed Church near my house. It is based on John Calvin's work during the Reformation. Has anyone had an experience with this denomination? I am wondering if it even matters to belong to a church in this day and age-so close to the end. I listen to the Family Radio and they are saying to not belong to a church now-I guess because so many are corrupted with the world,etc. Any insights anybody can give me would be very much appreciated and God bless you all. Love in Him, Flo
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Flo, and praise God for your freedom in Christ!

I love Calvin's theology (what little I understand.) All I know about the Christian Reformed Church is that it's dead, spiritually, and I've heard that second-hand.

I'm not sure what you might have heard on Family Radio, I can't understand why they would say that you shouldn't belong to a church. That seems unbiblical.

There are A LOT of denominations out there. There are A LOT of non-denominational churches out there. Perhaps the most critical factor is in finding a church that KEEPS THE MAIN THING, THE MAIN THING.

In other words, they don't relegate Jesus' death on the cross to be preached on occasion. Regardless of the sermon topic, the preacher should be pointing to Jesus. Also, there should be a regular call for people to believe in Jesus.

Be careful of all those "Holy Huddles" that are so prevalent in various denominations. There are some vibrant, Cross-centered denominational churches. But you have to do exactly what you are doing now, SHOP AROUND.

Remember what Paul said, "I would know nothing among you but Christ, and Him crucified."

Good Luck, Flo. If you're in the Southern California area, or Albuquerque New Mexico area I can give you a couple of possibilities.

Steve
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Flo,

Best thing to remember--there is no "true church" no church has it all sown up, no one is perfect and there you go. It's not like the SDA's where you have to agree with every point of doctrine to join. Most churches will tell you to seek God and let the Holy Spirit lead you. Lots of churches find something other than Jesus to focus on, that is a major problem, as long as they are keeping the focus on Jesus and preaching the Word you should be fine. I find that the Catholics focus on Mary, the Pentecostal on the gifts of the Spirit, the SDA's on the Sabbath, and so on. Pray about it. God will direct you to where He needs you most!

Great to have you here!
Sabra
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo, I'm glad you're here! Welcome!

I do think there's great need to belong to a fellowship of believers. I also agree with Steve and Sabra that the church you attend needs to be Christ-centered, and Jesus needs to be continually the focus.

We have quite a few Christian Reformed students at the school where I teach, and some people who used to be Reformed are now at our church. Christian Reformed is quite focused on the Ten Commandments. One man we know got a copy of Dale Ratzlaff's Sabbath in Crisis from us because his wife, who grew up Christian Reformed, believed they should be keeping Sunday holy and didn't want him boating, etc., on the "Sabbath".

Christian Reformed also believe strongly in infant baptism as a covenant act. Babies must be sprinkled, they say, in order to become part of God's covenant people. It's a hold-over, in a sense, from the Israelite belief that babies had to be circumcised in order to be part of the covenant people of God. To a Christian Reformed person, infant baptism has salvation overtones. Without it, a child is not part of God's covenant people. They do not pratice what we call believers' baptism as a voluntary act of declaration of faith.

In short, Christian Reformed tends to be quite old covenant law-based. They need the new covenant studies we all needed as we exited Adventism!

I'll pray that you'll find the church where God wants you to be!

Colleen
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 6:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Flo,

There is no need to be shy here. You will be treated with respect and love.

As far as church I would agree with Colleen, Sabra and Steve that fellowship with believers is important. We must remember that the chruch of which Jesus speaks is His chruch and that for myself is any place that 2 or more are gathered together to glorifiy God. That happens here and it can happen in your kitchen or the park. The most important thing to remember is that it must be what you believe and not what someone else is telling you to believe. If you have a Bible then you can find out for yourself what you believe and then in fellowship with others share that.

I say these things having belonged to the same denomination for 57 years, but not necessarily believing everything it teaches. That can happen I believe when the most important point is taught and that is JESUS death for remission of sins, burial for change and His resurrection for life.

I would dare to say that if you have been in legalistic churchs then you have not been proded to read Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, 2 Corinthians,Ephesians and of course the gospels especially John. I would encourage you to read these books until you know in your own mind you understand them. If you feel that you are not capable to understand, then the Holy Spirit is ready, available and eager to guide you. Call out to him in all earnest and He will be there. I can say this because it has happened to me.

I would just like to say I do not believe that being a member of a church is a requirement for salvation it is only a vehicle to enjoy the rich blessings of worshiping together of the glory of our Risen Lord.

Praying for you that in your submission to God you find His direction in whatever you do, Carol
Bmorgan (Bmorgan)
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo,
Family Radio is very good. Years ago, I found the music very soothing. I did not hear too many bible teachers on there at the time. However, Harold Camping was quite a regular guy on the station. He should be pretty old now.

Recently, I heard Hank Hanigraff speaking about some of the heretical teachings of Mr Camping telling people to leave or not belong to churches.

I personally see the need for us to be in a good healthy church. Even in a good church, many people, as wonderful as they are find it difficult to really UNDERSTAND how it feels to have been in a CULT. However, they love support and empathy do help in our healing.

Perhaps if you get can educate yourself about the qualities of a healthy church then you can start looking for a church based on that and so avoid some frustrations.

I have heard many people call CRI (Christian Research Institute-Hank Hanegraff, for recommendations of good churches in certain areas of the country.

RBC Ministries is another good place to get information about churches.

Praise God for removing the veil from our hearts.
Bmorgan
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Bmorgan! Praise God for removing the veil!

Colleen
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to you all for your encouragement!

Steve- Appreciate your words of advice. I'll keep "shopping around" but I double checked last night on the Family Radio Forum. And Harold Camping made it clear we are in an age now where we are to leave the churches. He has a booklet out about this-might send for it. Not sure what you meant by "holy huddles"?? But you're right about the "MAIN THING". I live in the Tacoma,WA area-but I was born near San Diego and we were going to live in New Mexico at one time! :) Anyone out there from this part of the country??

Sabra-When I joined the SDA Church, I guess I thought here was a church that "had it all." Now I know that was completely false. Yet for years and years I never saw one thing wrong with EGW or their beliefs. I thank God for the internet which opened my eyes with so much material that had been hidden away. I feel very deceived-almost violated, if that isn't too strong a word. It seems that in the last few years the blinders have been coming off in many different churches and other areas of our life. I believe Jesus is preparing a people for His coming. What do you think?

Colleen-Thanks so much for that info about the Christian Reformed Church. I had no idea. I read where Harold Camping from the Family Radio was raised in that church. He was talking on the Forum last night about Sunday being the Sabbath but he never produced any scripture to back it up. And he never once said that Jesus is our Sabbath. I don't want to get involved in another old covenant law-based church. What I have noticed since the veil has been lifted is the wonderful emphasis on Jesus and the cross and His sacrifice for me. Strange but I felt guilty in the past talking about this-thought I would be judged sounding too much like the "fallen churches". I've been looking for that scripture where Jesus said that he had many people that were not of this fold, or something like that.
Do you believe that if someone believes honestly in Jesus, has given their heart to Him, no matter what else he believes, he will be saved??

Yes, Carol, I have been reading those scriptures and it is amazing how different they read to me now. There seems to be so many scriptures that plainly refute the teachings of the SDA Church but somehow they can explain them away. Like not judging anyone about a sabbath day- or meat or drink,etc.

Bmorgan- I will definitely look up the CRI. I am interested in what Hank Hanegraff has to say about Harold Camping's heretical beliefs(maybe even more than not joining a church??) I listen to the station mainly for the lovely Christian music and not much else. Lately though I have been listening to the Forum to see how he answers the questions about belonging to a church. What is interesting is that lots of SDA's seem to be calling him up and pushing him about Sabbath vs Sunday. He is very patient with them but definitely states that EGW was a false prophet. I don't agree though when he says that Sunday is now the Sabbath. He doesn't suggest anyone go to church on Sunday-but read the Bible all day. He mentioned avoiding cooking much or doing worldly things.

Well, friends, this is long enough. Thanks for all your input and keep in coming! God bless. Flo
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo,

I think the verse you are looking for is:

Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.

There are lots of churches that teach Jesus is our Sabbath rest but then lots that teach Sunday is the Sabbath. That was a biggy for me. I was beginning to think no one understood the New Covenant any better than the SDA's!

I definately believe that a person is saved by grace through faith and regardless of what they believe. I also believe that same grace will bring the person to truth if they are submitted to the Holy Spirit.
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much, Sabra. That is exactly what I was looking for. If everyone believed this, wouldn't there be less hostility between denominations? We certainly have to trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the true ones. Flo
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen!!

That's what Jesus Christ church is all about and it's you and the spirit not you and Ellen White, Joseph Smith,David Koresh, Jim Jones, Sun Young Moon or Charles Taze Russel.

Then when you and the spirit become one you join together with other believers and share what God has done for you thru His Son Jesus Christ, not how you need to stay connected to a chruch by what you wear, eat, day you keep, do when you die.

I have said it before if you go to a chruch and they tell you what you need to do other than believe then you are held to the church not to Jesus Christ. And when you are held to what some man says it is not in your heart its in his. When Christ is in our heart no man will tell us other than the one who gave His life for us, and I might add that will not keep us from fellowship with our husbansds, brothers and sisters and all believers. Galatians 3 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Just like I will never allow anyone to tell me that I am not my Father's child likewise I will not allow anyone to tell me that I am not a child of God. It plainly says here that I am an heir, not by what I do but by the promise. What is the promise Go back to Genesis 15 and find out what the promise was. After reading this remember how Abraham got his righteousness: From doing good deeds or believing?

Praise God for Freedom to live for Jesus and not man, Carol
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much, Carol-that was beautiful and right on. When I questioned EGW, I was more or less told I was off the path and out of the light-as well, of course, to be following Satan :(
How can you convince someone of that mindset that, no, "I am a child of God and an heir to the throne."
I found it futile to refute or dispute or correct. But in my heart, I knew they were not right in their assessment. To me, when someone, not knowing my heart, would accuse me of such a thing, it confirmed that they were a cult and following a cult leader. Jesus was so gentle with people-there's a verse about not quenching a burning flax, or something. I felt so vulnerable when I first found out about the heresies but clung to Jesus and His Word that I was His child, still. Forsaking EGW is not the same as forsaking Jesus Christ. God help these poor people. Flo
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Flo and Carol. Clinging to Jesus will always keep us sane and spiritually safe. I am so thankful for that assurance.

Colleen
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Flo,

I'm glad you checked on Family Radio to correct me. However, if it truly was Harold Camping, I'm wondering if it was taped from long ago or is it a new broadcast.

He had been reprimanded for timing the return of Jesus to 1994 (or was it 1998?) I used to listen to him frequently (almost every night) up in Northern California. I guess after someone like that makes statements about the date of the second advent, I tend to discount what he may have to say.

Also, post-Adventism, I tend to be EXTREMELY wary of anyone saying that we should "leave the churches." That seems non-Christian, or even Seventh-day Adventist!

"Holy Huddles" is a term that Barry McMurtrie has used. He's senior pastor of Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, CA. A holy huddle is a church that is not interested in anything outside itself. They're not there to proclaim the gospel. They're more interested in edifying themselves. This is fine for a Bible study group, but not a Christian church.

If a church is keeping the main thing the main thing, which means proclaiming the Gospel/Good News, there's no way it can remain a holy huddle. The good news is too good. If it's really being proclaimed clearly, you just can't keep people away.

Steve
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo,

PS: This isn't my business, as you were addressing Carol above.

However, Hank Hanegraaff's ministry is suspect. He took over a ministry, against the wishes of the family of the deceased. He has completely changed the organization (Christian Research Institute) from an organization dedicated to revealing the Cults and Occult.

Hanegraaff has changed that to an organization dedicated to picking at other Christians. He even trounces upon fairly orthodox people. It's sort of "nitpicky" regarding the issues he chooses to address via CRI.

I'm not saying that you have to listen to me on this. I just wanted to post my thoughts. (The founder of CRI was a man that I still look to as an incredible Christian man, and one from whom I've learned very much. He died while on his knees in prayer, back in 1989.)

Steve
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve- I appreciate your input. H.C. is in his 80's and still alive-doing the live forum programs in the evenings from 5:30p-7p. My mother first told me about his false prediction of 1994. Lately it seems like the "smoking gun" for me when anyone predicts the time of Jesus' return-Ellen,James,Joseph Bates all did it-and how many offshoots too-and they have all been wrong. So what does it make them? As far as I'm concerned when someone does that, it instantly makes them a false prophet and I want nothing more to do with them. We have so many warnings in the Bible about false prophets and time setting and adding to and subtracting from the Scriptures. And yet there are still men and women who do not heed the warnings. I had heard a little before about H.H. But I was a little suspicious of Walter Martin because he seemed to believe the leaders of the SDA Church and never called them a cult. Did they deceive him during the 1950's when they were holding their talks together?? Don't know much about H.H.'s ministry now. But I did send in a long question to CRI today about the group I had been in after I left the SDA Church. They should respond by mail in a month or so. Will see what they say. So far, no one seems to have heard much about them.
Thanks to you Steve and all the rest for your help and prayers. This forum is great! Flo
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Flo,

You should try to get a hold of the video tapes of the John Ankerberg Show, when Walter Martin met with William Johnsson, editor of the Review (tapes were made in 1985.)

Ankerberg can be reached at:

Ankerberg Theological
Research Institute
P.O. Box 8977
Chattanooga, TN 37414 USA
(423) 892-7722

For credit card orders only:
1-800-805-3030


Walter Martin admits to being deceived. Condemns the SDA church as "speaking out of both sides of it's mouth," and even states that perhaps the label of "cult" while removed in the 1950's because of his work, should be reapplied, or NEVER removed in the first place.

I agree with you, Walter Martin let me down. I won't say he was the main reason I thought the SDA church was Christian. My (ex) wife was a major factor, as well as my own blindness. I've studied cults since 1975. I trusted Martin on this one. I never trusted him on over a dozen other groups; I did my own research, but found that he was highly accurate. I shouldn't have trusted him. I learned a big lesson.

However, after watching him talk with Johnsson on the Ankerberg show, over about 5 programs, I must say that, after rejecting him, I now reclaim him as a major influence in my life.

Martin did call them a cult. He was in the process of working with Kenneth Samples on new research into Adventism when Martin died. When Hanegraaff took over, it was all done away with.

Although Hanegraaff will blast away at fellow Christians, he will not refer to Adventism as a cult.

Martin avoided arguing with fellow Christians about minutae. If he could see what Hanegraaff has done, he'd be turning in his grave.

Oh, wait! He's not in the grave! He's with Christ, as Paul said, because he's absent from the body.

Flo, I'd be curious about the name of the offshoot group you were in. If you don't want to post it here, you can send it into the webmaster (Richard) and he can get it to me.

I'd also be interested to hear what CRI has to say.

Talk to you later,

Steve

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