| Author | Message | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I know you addressed this to Colleen but I too have encountered these people. They even go so far as saying that certain things defile them and like you said, they gain blessings and curses from certain behavior. It will almost suck you in if you are not careful. I got very depressed while they were feverishly trying to indoctrinate me. It didn't feel liberating at all but they claim it is very liberating once you get back to what God intended (the Old Testament way of doing things.) They say, "Just what scripture do you think the Apostles taught out of, the NT wasn't written yet?" Very compelling. They also discount Paul totally or say he is difficult to understand (quoting Peter). They say Yeshua kept the Torah perfectly and if you show them scripture where Jesus broke the Sabbath (telling the man to pick up his bed, etc.)they say "then he couldn't have been the Messiah." All Christian's are considered Pagan by them also. Classic Judaizer comment. Not that I am against Jews, I am not. Just don't impose Jewish regulations on me a Gentile please! And don't try to bring me back into bondage!!!!! What do they think Jesus set us free from anyway if not the Law, the yoke of slavery? Just wanted to add my comments. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, thanks for your first-person response to the effects of the Judaizing Christians. Sorry, Charlene--I didn't see you post yesterday! I completely agree with Pheeki. And you're right; there's really a movement of legalism that is sweeping through Christianity. I have come to believe that we who have found Jesus out of a strinctly legalistic background have a message not just to our SDA loved ones but to the Christian world as well. Paul's epistles make it clear that Judaizing was rampant even in the early church, and it's back again today. Legalism, or reverting to OT law-keeping and honoring the OT law, is really an outgrowth of natural man. Humans are born "married" to their works. The natural impulse of mankind is to perfect himself by his own will power and cleverness. Just as Paul wrote to the Galatians, "We, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16) "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Gal. 3:25) "What does the Scripture say? 'Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.' Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." (Galatians 4:30-31) "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4) No, we have no blessings to gain from observing the old covenant cermonies and rituals and laws. Every one of them was fulfilled in Jesus. We have the reality now instead of the shadow! We can walk in the light, reaping the blessings of knowing Jesus and being born of his Spirit that Israel could only believe would come. We have the life-changing blessing of the REAL THING! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Well said, Colleen! | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
Yes i also came out of a mesianic group that said that yes we are saved by the grace of God and by the death of Jesus on the cross and it is his shed blood that takes away our sin. But the same group also said that the Torah is to be followed because it(The Torah Laws) are still to be studyed and to be done. The group wanted to follow the feasts and Shabbat's because in there words "It brings us closer to God and to what the scripture tells us to do" The group never said that you are not saved or you are lost but they would incourage that the feasts and Shabbat's really needed to be followed. The Messianic group I came from needed to to the teachings of the Torah. But never the punishments and penilty's that are attached to if you do not observe this part of the law or that part of the law. But if someone does say we MUST observe the feasts and Shabbat's and there is an attachment to doing this along with salvation. Then this group is not following what Paul says. There needs to be a definded line on what is for salvation (The Gospel) and what is for worship! When people start to attach doing something of the law with your salvation. Pauls says you are putting God in debt for your Salvation Romans 4 4 Now to him that worketh (doing or observing the Law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. So what Paul is telling me. If I do lets say observe the Shabbat or any part of the law and do it for anypart of salvation. And Now that I have done this part of the law and since I have done it. God Owes me. I am telling God the he (God)needs to repay my Good Works because I have done part of the Law. You in doing this have put God in Debt for your Salvation. Can we put God in Debt? NO WAY. Paul Makes it so clear above when He says "For the reward (salvation)is now not of grace but know of debt" Can you see anybody saying that "Since I have done This part of the Law God Owes me? It will happen on judgement day. This is another powerfull verse that Paul gave to us. Romans 3 20 Therefore by the deeds (Or Doing) of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul is saying anybody! The people that do the law and the people that does not do the law. Everybody that includes me the Jewish person and the person down the street in the fancy church! NONE! shall be justified. yes there is good Pastors and followers of Christ that are getting sucked into this type of teachings but Paul also wrote about such a thing. 2 Thessalonians 2 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; I believe that Paul is talking about in the last days there will be people that says "well maybe I do need to keep the Law and we do need to do this or that. And Good God fearing pastors and Followers of Christ are saying yes we do need to some parts of the Old Covenent" Well Paul says anybody that says you need to do this or that has perverted the Gospel and will be cursed. Galatians 1 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed All we can do is pray that these people that say we need to do this for any part of Salvation. We need to pray that they will see the Salvation that comes through the work of the cross. And not observings days ,months season and years. But if people want to have a feast of one of the old testament days to celebrate the fact that we (Christians) Are set free from the Bondage of the world and we are serving the one true God that is okay. But to attach anytype of "We MUST do this for we are commanded to observe this feast." Then we have put God in debt. Again I ask can we put God in debt for doing any part of the Law for Salvation? Speakeasy | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Could anyone tell me if they have ever listened to Messianic Perspectives or seen the web site http://www.cjf.org/ I have listened and have not heard many things that I am in disagreement with. They talked of the sabbath on one session and I ordered the tape. It tells all about the different sabbaths and how they related in OT. It then went on to say any day is our sabbath of which I was very glad to hear. Just wondered if any of you have ever listened and could tell me if I have missed something. I am not proposing that you listen for instruction, just for information about which are really spreading the gospel according to Paul and which aren't. I am also not indorsing this program by any means just like I do not indorse my church. My indorsement is of Jesus Christ. Thanks, Carol | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Has anyone heard from Angie lately. I pray all is well with her and husband, since she talked of him wanting to disconnect internet. I thought she was going to access from the Library and just had a concern for her. Judging from previous posts some of you know more about her than I and I would hope you also know that all is well. Concern for Angie, Carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I find the Messianics are VERY different. Some hold to the Sabbath very strongly, others say it doesn't matter. One SDA I correspond with sent part of this page and I looked up the whole thing. I don't see how this helps his case but I would like your opinions on this. I have never heard of this before. website is: http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/am/goyim.asp (by the way sharing this info is allowed on the site) "Ultimately, all is understood: fear G-d and observe His commandments, for this is the completion of man." Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) 12:13 With respect G-d's commandments, all of humanity is divided into two general classifications: the Children of Israel and the Children of Noah. The Children of Israel are the Jews, the descendants of the Patriarch Jacob. They are commanded to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah. The Children of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world. They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noahide Laws. These Seven Universal Laws pertain to: Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry. Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d. Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder. Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft. Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations. Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal. Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws. Men and women are equal in their responsibility to observe the Seven Universal Laws. When a Gentile resolves to fulfill the Seven Universal Laws, his or her soul is elevated. This person becomes one of the "Chasidei Umot Haolam" (Pious Ones of the Nations) and receives a share of the World to Come. The Torah calls one who accepts the yoke of fulfilling the Seven Universal Laws a "Ger Toshav" (a Proselyte of the Gate). This person is permitted to live in the land of Israel and to enter to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and to offer sacrifices to the G-d of Israel. If a Gentile wishes to accept the full responsibility of the Torah and the 613 commandments, he or she can convert and become a Jew in every respect. It is a principle of Judaism, however, not to seek converts and one who requests conversion is generally discouraged. Should the person persist in his or her desire to convert, counsel should be taken only with an Orthodox Rabbi or Torah Scholar, for conversion not in accord with Halacha - Torah Law - is no conversion at all, and conversion bestowed by "rabbis" who themselves do not follow the Laws of the Torah are null and void, neither recognized in heaven nor by any G-d-fearing Jew. It is incorrect to think that since the Children of Israel have 613 commandments and the Children of Noah have seven commandments, that the ratio of spiritual worth is proportionally 613 to seven. The Seven Universal Laws are general commandments, each containing many parts and details, whereas the 613 Commandments of the Torah are specific, each relating to one basic detail of the Divine Law. Therefore, the numerical disparity in no way reflects the relative spiritual worth of the two systems of commandments. Besides the Seven Universal Laws, the Children of Noah have traditionally taken it upon themselves to fulfill the commandment of honoring mother and father, and the commandment of giving charity. If a Noahide who follows the Seven Universal Laws gives charity, the Israelites accept it from him, and give it to the poor of Israel since through the merit of giving charity to the poor among the Jewish people one is given life by G-d and saved from death. But a Gentile who does not accept the yoke of the Seven Noahide Laws and gives charity is not permitted to give it to the needy of Israel. His charity may be given only to poor Gentiles. By observing the Seven Universal Laws, mankind is given the means by which it can perfect itself. The individual, through these laws, has the power to refine his essential being, and can reach higher and higher without limit. For it is written, "I call heaven and earth to bear witness, that any individual, man or woman, Jew or Gentile, freeman or slave, can have the Holy Spirit bestowed upon him. It all depends on his deeds." (Shaare Tzedek 60a, 60b) The Jew's Role The Jew has a crucial role to play in this. He cannot be a bystander, remaining aloof from the world's conduct. Every Jew has the obligation to ensure that all the people of the world observe the Seven Noachide Laws. It is through the observance of the Seven Noachide Laws that the entire world becomes a decent, productive place, a fitting receptacle for the Divine. The Rambam explicitly rules (Code, Kings 8:10): "Moshe Rabbeinu commanded from the mouth of G-d to convince all the inhabitants of the world to observe the commandments given to the Children of Noach." It is the Jew's duty to see to it that all peoples lead the righteous and decent life which comes from compliance with the Seven Noachide Laws. Not only is it a Jew's duty because he has been so commanded by G-d, but it is also to his own benefit. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
My goodness, that just sounds complicated and exhausting! The Old Testament can really be twisted without the reality of the new covenant and Jesus' fulfillment of the old! Speakeasy, I'm so happy to hear you continuing to be grounded in the freedom of the gospel! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
A lady where I work was raised sda/penticostal. As a kid she preferred the sda side of the family. She is now a messianic jew. When I asked her how come she went to that she told me because she knows the sda's are right as far as they go but the o.t. has 613 laws and all are still ment to be kept/observed. So she became messianic jew. I then asked her if she keeps all 613 of the laws. She told me this is where Christ comes in. That she trys her best to keep all of the laws but knowing fullwell that it is impossible then she has the Grace of Jesus because He knows her sincere effort. WOW! I call this taking one step forward and then two steps back. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes, Susan, I agree. It reminds me of the way I was taught as a kid: do the best you can, and Jesus makes up the difference. If you think about it, that's an insulting thing to say about Jesus; He's there to make up the difference we can't quite accomplish. Colleen | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Carol, I didn't go to the website yet to check it out. However, I'm now very sensitive to the specific wording regarding the Sabbath. I really believe that Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 really identify what and Who the Sabbath is. When you were listening you heard them say, "any day is our sabbath" which you were very glad to hear. That phrase alone would make me stop for a moment. The Sabbath is not a day. It was a day, before Jesus was born. When Jesus was born, He became, and is, the Sabbath. There is no more day that will ever be a sabbath of any kind. It has been fulfilled in Jesus. He is the final revelation of God to man. Hebrews 1:1-2a says, 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,..." God at one time spoke through Moses. But in these last days (the last days began when Jesus was born) God spoke through His Son. Now we look to Jesus, not the law. The Sabbath rest is no longer a day, it is being in Jesus. I rest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. What am I resting from? From the work of keeping the law. Now I can rest 24/7 from that because the WORK of salvation has been completed. There is no more work to do. If I ever get to thinking that I can keep a day, or do this or that, to get God to be pleased with me, I have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4.) Even if I think that in doing any of those things I become "closer" to God, then I have fallen. Jesus lives in my heart. He knocked, I opened. He said that He will never leave me nor forsake me. In Him I put my trust. Beware of Messianic Jews. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews recognized three classes of people: 1) Jews 2) Christians 3) Christians who were reverting to Jewish customs The letter of Hebrews is a very serious letter of warning (as well as a great book to study) to those Christians who were reverting to Jewish customs. Perhaps the book of Hebrews is, for Messianic Jews, what the book of Galatians is for us former Adventists. OK. Enough of my soapbox. Perhaps someday I'll take a listen to that website you refer to, Carol. steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Guys, I've never even heard of the 7 Noahic laws. Am I the only one? This is some very interesting stuff here! Check out: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/7lawcomm.html I don't know how you all hyperlink that on here. Anyways, here is an interesting part of the page: The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Noahide Laws in legislation which was passed by both houses. Congress and the President of the United States, George Bush, indicated in Public Law 102-14, 102nd Congress, that the United States of America was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah, and that these Laws have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization. They also acknowledged that the Seven Laws of Noah are the foundation upon which civilization stands and that recent weakening of these principles threaten the fabric of civilized society, and that justified preoccupation in educating the Citizens of the United States of America and future generations is needed. For this purpose, this Public Law designated March 26, 1991 as Education Day, U.S.A. So, exactly what are these laws? What is their purpose? Where do they come from? Are they Biblical? Are they the same as the Ten Commandments? Are they Jewish? Are they Christian? What do they have to do with me and other people living in our society today? These are a few of the questions that are being asked more and more each day as people hear the terms "Noachide Law", "Laws of Noah", "the Seven Laws", "the Seven Laws of Noah", or "Universal Laws", "Laws for All Mankind", etc. The belief in "Universal Laws" or "Laws for All Mankind" presupposes the belief in a Universal or Supreme Lawgiver This is exactly the way the Bible begins. It begins with such a presuppostion in God as the Supreme Creator; "In the beginning, God....." (Gen. 1:1). Kind of blows the Sunday Law theory right out of the water, hu? | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, Unlike the Old Covenant, the Noahic Covenant was not summarized into ten commandments, but rather this suzerain treaty is considered to consist of only SEVEN commandments. Obviously, the Fourth Commandment of the Mosaic Covenant was not one of the seven. The Noahic Covenant included capital punishment (Gen. 9:6), no blood from animals was to be eaten (Gen. 9:4), to be fruitful and multiply--this is the ONLY commandment humankind has faithfully kept throughout the ages (Gen. 9:7), the sign of covenant was the rainbow; mankind was never again to be cut off by a flood (Gen.9:13,16,17), a fear and terror of man was placed upon all creatures(Gen. 9:2), every moving thing alive was to be their food (Gen. 9:3), the covenant partners are God, man, and every living creature (Gen. 9:12), worship by means of burnt offerings(Gen. 8:20)and an agriculturally-based economy (Gen. 9:20). One can add or subtract from the above list of directives; however, how precisely the so-called SEVEN COMMANDMENTS of Noah came to be traditionally-extrapolated I am not certain. I have never seen a definitive list or order of the Seven Commandments of the Noahic Covenant. By the way, many Bible scholars believe that the intemperance of Noah (Gen. 9:21) made it possible for Ham, the youngest son, to crush his father's genitals. This, of course, would prevent Noah from fathering additional children due to Ham's concern about additional sibling birth rights and inheritances. The motive apparently was selfishness and greed. This insight is not explicitly stated in Scripture, but it definitely fits into the overall narrative. Upon awakening from his drunkenness, Noah definitely noticed and/or felt what his youngest son had done to him. The Bible says, "he KNEW what his youngest son had done to him." There was no doubt in his mind. Consequently, Noah pronounced a curse upon his youngest son to be a "servant of servants" to his older brothers. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, From the little bit of research I've done on it, looks like the Israelites considered this law to be for the decendants of Noah and that it did not apply to them,nor did their law apply to others. Looks like they have been clear on this all along. One site I found even said that conversion to Judiasm is discouraged. So they never expected anyone else to follow the 10 commandments anyways, even before the cross, is this correct? And, regarding Noah, I thought that there was a homosexual implication there, no? | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, The Israelites, as God's chosen nation, were commissioned to share the message of salvation to the non-Jewish world. Unfortunately, they quickly became arrogant and selfish in their privileged status. There were instances where non-Jews converted to Judaism, but that was mostly an exception to their routine lifestyle. Obviously, they failed their appointed mission in this regard. Yes, the Jews were unable to observe perfectly the Ten Commandments. The Law was meant to bring them to their knees in acknowledging their bent toward sin. The Law was to show them their dire need of a Savior/Messiah. Sadly, their corporate mission to bring salvation to everyone was a dismal failure. They could not share what they did not have themselves. They delighted in being a part of an exclusive franchise, and they didn't want that factor to change in any way. Arrogance still reigns in legalistic groups today. Yes, Ham's act against his father, can be considered a homosexual violation as well. Based on Noah's punitive response, it seems that even more issues were involved. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Just thought that I would mention that until last year, I had never heard exactly what was done to Noah other than his son SAW him naked but a word study indicates that his "seeing" his father's nakedness indicated that the son took sexual advantage of Noah while in his drunken state. I haven't heard the other story that Sabra just related, that was interesting though, needless to say, I always did wonder why Noah got mad and cursed his own child for just seeing him naked when had it not been for him getting drunk, would have never happened in the first place. Well, the Bible never ceases to be an endless source of information to us as we study it out, does it? I have so many things to be thankful for and finding this forum is one of them. Maybe some day we will see the fruits of our labor unfold as our loved ones finally come to see the light as we all have. I have to believe this or else go insane from all this worry and frustration that are a direct result of spiritual ignorance. We perish for lack of knowledge, but praise God for the Comforter that imparts knowledge to all who seek it. God bless, Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Pheeki, I just noticed what you said about the question of what scripture the disciples used seeing as how the New Testament wasn't written yet. I don't know what group you are in reference to with your comment, but my answer to them and to that question is quiet simple. The Bible says that the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the word and he was the teacher of the disciples and even told his accusers (religious leaders) that "before Abraham was I AM" which leads me to ask "why is that so hard for some folks to understand?" All anyone has to do is begin reading in the gospel according to John for a complete description of WHO Jesus was and this should silence those that are stupid enough to ask such nonsense questions in the first place. They obviously are not saved because they don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help discern the word. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
"The ten commandments are a transcirpt of God's character and are binding on Christians today." Who, that has spent any amount of time in the company of SDA's, has not heard this statement made? Well today, our Pastor began a series on the book of Hebrews. As he was preaching, I was reading on my own and I noticed something that I had not applied in this way before. Look at Hebrews 2:1-4: 1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. What is the message that was spoken bu angels? Well Stephen tells us, just before he was stoned to death by the Jews. In Acts 7:51-53, he says, "You stiff necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears. You are just like your fathers. You always resist the Holy Spirit. Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One, and now you have betrayed and murdered Him--you who have received the law that was put into effect throgh angels but haven ot obeyed it." If that is not enough, read, Galatians 3:19, whoch says, "What then is the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator." So, we see the same message here that we see in Hebrews 10. If we are not willing to accept God's free gift of salvation, then we are bound by the law, which requires punishment for every violation and disobedience. Who among us can say that they are able to keep even a portion of the law. To those of us who cannot, the only thing left to us is a fearful expectation of judgement--were it not for the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. Furthermore, Hebrews 1:2 says that "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being..." How then do we reduce God's character to ten rules on a slab of cold stone without blaspheming the gift of God? We cannot. Jesus is the embodiment of the ten commandments and so much more. Just this one passage blows the Adventist claim of the binding nature of the ten commandments right out of the water. Unfortunately, many have chosen not to read this passage in its proper context. Even the Life Application Bible, in its study notes makes the passage in Hebrews 2 an issue of obedience, and being ready to "carry out God instructions," rather than oneo f accepting His free gift of salvation. I am not downplaying the importance of obedience, but we must be careful not to make it a salvific issue--particularly when that idea is not supported in scripture. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Dennis, always something new to learn, praise God. Doug, an interesting thing that my pastor pointed out tonight in a new series on the tabernacle: In Ex. 24:7,8 when Moses read the book of the covenant to the people they said, "All that the Lord has said we will do and be obedient." Then Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people and said, "Behold, the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words." WOW!! Even Moses knew they couldn't keep the law already! | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, Thanks for sharing that! I had never seen that before, not in that way anyways. I understand your point too about the Life Application Bible's study notes. I got one last year thinking it would be a great help, which at times it was; but at other times, their emphasis on certain things really smells of legalism and not much like Christian liberty. Joel |
