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Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

here's the thing, a lot of it has to do with motive or intent etc...

because while dating my ex he was 'subtly' trying to convert me to Adventist. He wanted me to read EGW, which I did in order to better understand him. I did read with a very critical eye, already having been forewarned.

I think if one is reading a book to 'appease' the other party or to at least 'appear' fair minded that it doesn't do the reader much good. like when I borrow books because they're good literature, I rarely read them :) (i'm so bad) but it's because of the 'supposed to' factor.

you know, the thing that topped it off with me was the way my ex tried to convert me or at least make his decision to break up with me easier. out of the blue he said, "I want to be a truth-seeker." and then he asked, "do you want to be a truth seeker, too?" Of course after a moment's shock I said yes. he said "good, because the woman I want to marry has to be a truth seeker."

and when we tried to seek after truth together, he left. of course I yelled at him, "you said you wanted to be a truth seeker and we finally have the opportunity to study the bible together and you're so closed!" of course what he *really* meant was, "I want you to find out the special truths of Adventism."

then he retorted, "name one thing you've changed your mind about since we started discussing things." I hadn't of course, because we were talking about: sabbath, hell, michael, unclean foods, and IJ. so I replied, "name one thing you have changed your mind about."

calling me stubborn was like him calling the kettle black.

so this is what I conclude with both SDAs and nonChristians etc., if they don't want to be enlightened, they won't be enlightened.

I begged my ex to at least leave a crack open for the time when we were to speak. he promised it to me, but yet again he failed that promise, and I still remember the set of his jaw, and his doggedly flipping through a red book, which I took to be either something from EGW or SDAs for finding their 'chain' verses to prove their doctrines.

But it's just like all of you said, he was ok with me not converting to Adventism because I didn't know about it, but once I started researching it on my own and still didn't believe it, I was to be cast aside.

It was like pleading with a stone. He didn't want a truth different from the one he already believed in. You can't give anyone something new unless they've at least started to let go of the old. At this point it's like trying to pry someone's hands off what they think is their key to Salvation. yes, they're holding on for dear life. Unless they've already started to let go of their own will, all of your straining won't do very much good.

i always recommend prayer, but it is hard because I am getting weary.

Chyna
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 7:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,

Have you done any reading on the greiving process? It might help you.

I realize that this was a very very hard experience for you to have gone through. You really loved this guy and it appears that you still do.

Please do not be offended but the more you tell me of him, the less I like him. He definitely is not a "keeper".

You deserve so much better. Would you want to be beside a man forever knowing that he lied on his medical school application? That he participates in actions he considers wrong (drinking and dancing)? He has not been honest and true to himself and has not been honest or true to you. He hid so many things about Adventism from you, including his intentions to convert you.

I hear your anger at this experience which is a part of grieving but I hear a hint of hope that things may change or be different (which deny the situation also.)

I am telling you this not to be judgemental or mean. Presently my brother who sometimes lives as a zealous SDA and sometimes not is off the wagon again. It is so devastating when he falls off the SDA wagon as he terribly disrupts the life of his wife (who he converted to Adventism) and his four children. This time is even so much worse, he not only has become adultress but has fallen in love with the woman.

My brother pretty much had the same patterns of behavior with his wife as you are posting about your ex.

The only big difference in the situation is that you are not easily influenced spiritually by him.

My concern for you is that your ex might fall off the SDA wagon again and even appear to have the Gospel message. What would happen if he woke up one morning (after having a couple of kids with you) and say he is going to Sabbath School and taking the kids?

Chyna, I have a lot of respect for you. And I hesitate to post these words. Continue to write about your ex for as long as it takes to get this out of your system. But I want you to know that you deserve so much better and HE is out there deserving so much better also. But you will need to resolve your grief to realize who HE is.

Blessings to you Chyna,

Valerie
Lori
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,

As I read you last post I was compelled,like Valerie, to comment on your possible successful relationship with this man.

I went to Adventist Academy and ended up dating the one person in my class that was a non-SDA. He had attended Adventist schools all of his life, but was a Baptist, and never had converted to SDA. He wanted to marry me and I told him I could never marry him because he wasn't SDA. He told me that he understood (he had been exposed to everything that had been taught to me).

Years later, I ended up marrying a wonderful Christian man who was not a SDA. (By choice I became "unequally yoked", of course this is not what the Bible really means by unequally yoked but it is the SDA meaning). When I married, I was criticized by church elders and pastors, told I need serious counseling, etc.... The only difference in my relationship with my husband and your relationship with your 'ex' is, and was, that we had decided before hand to agree to disagree. My husband did not ever try to dissuade me from my beliefs and I did the same thing to him. At times, I would try to get him into religious discussion which he graceful declined. Discussing religion is discussing an arguement. And, my husband, of a different religion, had absolutely nothing to do with "my conversion"!!!!!

Your life with this man, had you stayed together, would have been pure misery. I know that breaking up is difficult but God knows what is best for you and you should be grateful that the "problems" were found before you were "joined together". No matter how Biblically grounded your viewpoints are, when presented to the closed Adventist mind they are evil, they are deception and the person presenting them is the enemy.

Your 'ex' views you as a tool of the devil seeking to deceive him. If you think that him not speaking to you as your 'ex' is awful, then consider what it would be like to be "his wife" and having to live with the silence and the rejection.

God had a purpose in exposing you to the Adventist doctrines. In doing so he has given you the knowledge in knowing how to "fight" them. However, it is unlikely that is it "your mission" to minister to your 'ex' and his family. More often than not it takes an outsider to reach them. You have planted seeds of doubt, it is most likely that someone else will come along and make those seeds grow. The best thing that you can do for your 'ex' is to let it go. To pursue the subject only will harden him to his viewpoint.


Someone sent me this the other day, maybe it will be of some help to you in letting go or your 'ex':


Pay attention to what you read. After you read this, you will know the reason it was sent to you!

People come into your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. When you figure out which one it is, you will know what to do
for each person.

When someone is in your life for a REASON. . . It is usually to meet a need you have expressed. They have come to assist you through a difficulty, to provide you with guidance and support, to aid you physically, emotionally,
or spiritually. They may seem like a godsend, and
they are! They are there for the reason you need them to be.

Then, without any wrong doing on your part, or at an inconvenient time, this person will say or do something to bring the relationship to an end.
Sometimes they die.
Sometimes they walk away.
Sometimes they act up and force you to take a stand.

What we must realise is that our need has been met, our desire fulfilled, their work is done. The prayer you sent up has been answered. And now
it is time to move on.

When people come into your life for a SEASON .
Because your turn has come to share, grow, or learn. They bring you an experience of peace, or make you laugh. They may teach you something you
have never done. They usually give you an unbelievable amount of joy.

Believe it! It is real! But, only for a season.

LIFETIME relationships teach you lifetime lessons; things you must build upon in order to have a solid emotional foundation. Your job is to accept the lesson, love the person, and put what you have learned to use in all other relationships and areas of your life. It is
said that love is blind but friendship is clairvoyant.

Thank you for being a part of my life.



This little message helped me to realize that some of the people that helped me out of Adventism that I no longer really have the same relationship with were there for a reason or season, not a lifetime. It always hurts when relationships end even if you are the one that ends them, but we have to move on, learn from the experience and continue to grow (in our case, we are growing in God's grace). As much as I would like to take all my Adventist friends and family with me as I grow in grace, I can't! It has to be a choice on their part. Growing in grace is a personal journey, you can tell people about the wonders of growing in grace and invite them to try it, but you can't take them with you and you can't make them do it.

Chyna, you have put alot into understanding your 'ex's' views on religion. Take what you have learned and move on, find out from God what purpose that experience has made you ready for. Scripture says we are to "put the past behind us". Phil 3:13 "..but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto things which are before."

God can turn your sorrow into joy if you will let him.

Lori
Cindy
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lori, Hi...:-)) Thank-you so much for posting the words about people coming into your life for a "reason, a season, or a lifetime"...

I've had people in my life who have helped me tremendously...and then died unexpectantly...or I've had to leave by moving away. It is a devastating feeling.

But I dimly see and can be grateful for what they taught me... And realize now that God worked through them. His Presence was with me, in the midst of my circumstances.

And He continues to do this. Right now, in my new location, I have some new friends who have amazed me once again of how God's providential workings are always there with us to discipline, to guide, and to bless us! He is our Good Shepherd...

Grace always,
Cindy
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear everyone,

Thank you for your concern. I think people might have misunderstood my post.

1. My ex does not think there is anything wrong with drinking or dancing. He was just afraid of injuring his chances of getting into medical school.

2. I am not hoping to get back together with him. I do pray for him that he'll have true salvation.

3. I gave the example to show that Adventists, if not open will just be hard and stubborn.

4. My ex has never fallen of the SDA wagon, he has always been SDA, never not. he has always wanted his future children to go to SDA school, he has always wanted to attend an SDA church.

5. Personally I am very glad we did not stay together because staying together in a relationship with a cultist constantly trying to convert me while deceiving me about himself would have been enormously terrible. It really gave the relationship no chance from the beginning since it was founded on a lie. which is terribly sad, my next relationship will be founded on truth. that's for sure.

6. Yes, I love my ex. But it's similar to any of you that still love your SDA families and friends. It's the same concept. Yes I would love to be reconciled to him, but I know that won't happen unless something radical changes in his life.

thanks for all the concern,
Chyna
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chyna,

Thank you for the clarification. With regards to your ex never falling off of the SDA wagon: He may claim to be an SDA, but there was a reason he lied on his form, he could not be admitted otherwise. In addition he would not be able to hold any office within the church if the church board knows that he participates in these activities. He may even be brought to the point of being disfellowshipped from his congregation if he continued to drink and dance. This in the eyes of an SDA congregation is falling off the wagon.

My brother still claims he is an SDA while committing adultery and drinking heavily. And he has ran a pattern for the last 15 years. Heavily and piously into Adventism and then having a binge of the other life. When he could he would hide his binges from the congregation and continue being an active SDA!

Many young SDAs will state they do not find anything wrong with drinking and dancing. But ask them how they would feel if they had an 18 year old daughter and they found out she was at a dance!! You might get an entirely different reaction. Ask them what they think will happen to them if when they leave the dance or bar and were suddenly killed and you may also get a sobering response. Remember these young SDA's have been taught from the cradle that these were instruments of Satan, and that is not easy to shake. Deny temporarily, but not shake.

The very sad point is that many SDAs live either this double life or an "on again off again" pattern.

I am VERY happy for you that you do not see hopes of a reconciliation. I would be concerned that a reconciliation would be a temporary thing, due to this on again off again pattern I have seen in so many SDAs.

Chyna, many blessings to you. You are a fine person. Very few would take the time to understand all of this. I hope I am helpful. I want you to know that I am frank about these things not to speak poorly of your ex. He needs our compassion and prayers. It is just the way I see the dynamics from growing up and SDA, going to an SDA University, dating SDA men and observing many people I know in these patterns of behavior.

Valerie
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to add that the forum only sees one side of the relationship when there were several. If you read Bill's story it was much like that. We both thought our relationship was headed for marriage because we had so much fun together and so many things in common. I was for the most part really happy during the relationship, even over long distance we remained close, he called me his best friend. we talked daily for hours. we prayed together, we supported each other. we tried to share the best part of ourselves with each other. and, I thought that we were all out happy with each other, but later he told me he felt 'strained' the entire time to my surprise. he felt strained because he kept waiting for me to convert, he felt unaccepted by me because I was critical of the Adventist doctrine. when I talked to him about finding a church together he was unrelentingly stubborn --- at that point in time I thought he was a mature Christian and didn't understand why it would be so hard to attend a church that wasn't SDA (little did i know then).

and that's why it hurt so much to learn he kept so many things from me. and when I asked him why, he said he knew we couldn't have a relationship if he was honest. but I know in his mind he was thinking, "it's ok that she doesn't want to become Adventist or raise her children Adventist, it's because she doesn't really know what Adventism is." and then he was just biding his time to convert me. and voila! perfect wife.

that's another thing I think he has a problem with -- trying to find the "perfect" woman when he doesn't realize he really needs to work things out within the context of a relationship instead of burying them. but that is besides the spiritual component -- his often frustrating emotional unavailability.

overall I feel really sorry for him because I don't think he really understands God's love. I was happy because I was in a relationship where I could be genuine and thought I was loved for who I was. he, however, could never feel that happy about being in a relationship with me because he never was completely genuine, and he never felt completely accepted by me because I had trouble with his church. but I loved him so much, I loved him completely, warts and all. and it still troubles my heart when I think about the times when we'd look at each other with such love, and then to know that it was torn apart by him, his cult, and his identity.

Chyna
Violet
Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2001 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I stumbled onto something yesterday that shocked me (although I don't know why anything shocks me anymore).

I was always told that Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet but a messenger from God. On the surface that seems like she is humble and not deserving of being called a prophet. WRONG!!!!! If you read down further in the quote you read this.....

"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies." 1SM pg32 par4

She was not a prophet in her mind- she was more than a prophet!

Those writings never cease to amaze me.

VI
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2001 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Violet--I have heard Adventists use the argument that she did not call herself a prophet to prove that Adventists don't have an extra-biblical prophet like the Mormons and the Christian Scientists do. It's all semantics, isn't it?

Colleen
Doug222
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2001 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally,
I have never understood how we could ever say Sola Scriture, then turn around and tout EGW. It always seemed like such a contradiction, but I just assumed there was something that I was missing. Now that I am seeing things in the light of "the" Gospel, I am seeing that a lot of things don't add up. The problem is that if you remove EGW, the whole house begins to crumble. That should tell us something right there.

God Bless

Doug
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2001 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The phenomenon of saying Sola Scriptura, as you said, Doug, and touting EGW reminds me of the brainwashing we always decried in cults. I remember as a junior high student thinking about the incredible fact that people could be sucked into cults, actually be convinced that what they were taught was true, and then, if rescued needing extensive de-programming. I remember wondering how ANYBODY could be sucked into that, and feeling so superior because WE had the TRUTH.

I praise God for calling me to himself and finally waking me up to Himself, the real truth!

Colleen
Carol_2
Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi ya'll - something interesting going on that i wanted to share with you. an elder (i guess i should say former elder) at the sda church to which i belonged until leaving last october today sent an e-mail to many members of the church sharing information and downloadable files about egw and the fact that she is NOT a prophet (as we know.) he just last weekend sent a letter to the pastors of the church asking his name to be removed from the church membership. anyway, it was exciting to me because for the first time it seems to me like it's very possible many people that i actually know and care about may start to seriously consider some of this stuff. the church to which i belonged is the largest church in the atlanta area, and the 2nd largest in the conference. i was the church secretary there for eight years, quitting just last fall as i was preparing to leave the denomination. (that's why i was always paranoid about revealing my identify before early october.) even just since i've been gone two members who were prominent, well known members have left (that includes this guy i'm referring to now.) and the three of us that have left since the fall did not even have shared experiences or journeys. it just encourages me that now people might give some of this stuff more consideration. (or else they'll suggest this is just another sign of the end-times, as we're forsaking the "spirit of prophecy.") thought it was very interesting, love and prayers to all, carol
Sabra
Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol,

That's great! If you have the letter e-mail it to me.

I'm sure God used your example in leading others to His truth.

God Bless,
Sabra
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't read all the posts in all the discussion groups yet-so much to read and so little time :) but I have a question that might fit in here (if it hasn't already been answered somewhere else.) I have a friend who feels led by God to share new light she says God is revealing to her from the prophecies, mainly from Daniel,Revelation and Job. In one small booklet of less than 50 pages she used over 30 "Spirit of Prophecy" quotes while she claimed she was proving her point using only the "Word of God."
Is this normal for SDA's to use EGW as the "Word"? Like one equals the other for whatever point is being made?

Also, what proof did EGW or the SDA Church use to prove she was the "Spirit of Prophecy"? Seems presumpious of her to call herself that when the Holy Spirit gives prophecy, and not man. I've heard it said that supposedly the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen G. White. I used to never question this but now it just seems to be blatantly heretical. We are warned to not add or subtract from the Word. Isn't that exactly what has been done by EGW and the SDA's?? Flo
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Flo,

Others can speak to this in much more depth than I can. However, I can say that it is entirely consistent with everything I have seen when you say that this friend uses EGW as equal to or greater than Scripture.

If you confront her and ask about this, she is likely to deny that EGW outranks the Bible. However, in practice, I have seen that actions (how they use her words) to speak much louder than words (how they portray her writing to non-SDAís when challenged.)

Jerry
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo,

As I posted in another post what you believe must be your own coming from God alone. To come from God alone you must study your Bible diligently, not to be saved but to be assured of what you believe. I say not to be save because only Christ can do that and did.

When we study our Bible on our own asking for God's help we come up with the right answers. We come up with trust in a most powerful God who we know beyond a shadow of a doubt will lead us to all truth.

It is only when we are not confident in ourselves to find the answers we need that Satan can use us in a way that can be very detrimental by listening to what others say the Bible says and then it is not what we believe but what they and another person down the street and someone else who seems to know prophecy believes.

God did not make it hard to understand the simple gospel. What is hard is letting ourselves rest in the fact that he did it. Have you ever done the fall back into someone else's arms thing. It takes trust that the person behind you will in fact catch you and it takes trust that God provided for us a Saviour not because of anything we do but because of what His Son did. If this is not in the Bible then please enlighten me.

Thanks and God Bless, Carol
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo, your observations are right on. Adventists do use EGW much like the Bible, although they're usually careful to say she's not on par with Scripture.

The spirit of prophecy label is blasphemous, in my mind. Revelation refers to God's people having the spirit of prophecy, and the reference is to the Holy Spirit giving God's people prophetic gifts. To call EGW's books the spirit of prophecy and to claim she is the fulfillment of this promise is to arbitrarily assign her an identity which in the Bible refers to the Holy Spirit.

That particular label has bothered me for a long time!

Colleen
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For insight into just how much the SDA's defend EGW and the extent of their worship of her...just go to www.carm.org and go to the SDA forum. Unbelievable!
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, or just go to my SDA sister, and she will tell you that EGW and her writings have made her pathways straight and will warn anyone to "look out" for the wrath of God if they don't give her the respect she deserves as God's prophetess. As far as trying her spirit to see if she is of God or not, well, the booklet about Dangerous Cults and how they influence is a perfect example of the brainwashing that has gone on now for almost 200 years. We have the instruction book that tells us that everything spoken by a "so-called" prophet should line-up with the word.

The Holy Spirit is our discerner of truth and our Bible plainly tells us that as far as our salvation is concerned, we KNOW and are in no need of a teacher about the subject. I know we need teachers to exhort and expound on the word of God but we don't need anyone's opinion if we know in our hearts that the Holy Spirit dwells within.

Janice
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for all your thoughts and insights. I'm just wondering if anyone out there knows exactly when Ellen started using the phrase "Spirit of Prophecy" to denote her work? Years ago I bought the huge three volume black zippered books that contain all her writings with a large "Spirit of Prophecy" plastered on the front. Somehow I am afraid to give them up. Maybe in the back of my mind there is the thought she might be right. But....

Has anyone read the Israel Dammon story where she was called "Imitation of Christ" during a rather charismatic boisterous meeting?? She laid on the floor, her head on a pillow, describing her visions.

God bless, Flo

P.S. Thanks Pheeki for sending me to the carm.org website. Interesting.....

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