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Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flo,

If you want to keep the books that will have to be your decission. Just remember that if you want truth then you must go to the Bible and if Ellen White is right it will match up with the Bible.

My Bible tells me that the truth comes from Christ not Ellen White.

John 16
12"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

Happy reading to find out the truth, Carol
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm done shaking now.

I am in the process of attempting to determine the first occurrence of the term "spirit of prophecy" by EGW as well as the first time the term is used in reference to her writings. It may take some time.

I had a huge quote from EGW to show how she referred to the Spirit of Prophecy in her writings.

HOWEVER, I came upon this GEM and couldn't wait to share it with you all. I personally find it fascinating. For me, it shows "who" EGW was truly governed by.

The Spirit of Prophecy (EGWs writings) and EGW herself were being attacked. The following quote is in Arthur White's Biography, Vol. 3, p. 225, 2.
__________________________________________________

Before some of these opposers had an existence, I was shown what would come, and from what source. In the day of God, those who have been seeking to prove me a deceiver must answer for their course.
__________________________________________________

HELP ME HERE. I LITERALLY STARTED SHAKING WHEN I SAW THIS. DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS?!

Apparently, EGW was shown things "before" these opposers had an existence.

Who is she?

At this time, and in this place, she was one of five possibilities that I can see.

1-3. She was God, the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. BLASPHEMY!

4. She was filled with an Evil Spirit. OK, Not blasphemy, but I wonder who was uglier, EGW or the spirit? (The spirit might cry blasphemy!)

5. She was speaking as Satan Itself. "Anyone who will prove [her] a deceiver must answer for their course."

WHOA! Don't take my word for it, but anyone who would implicitly threaten eternal security in Jesus by showing EGW to be a deceiver, has just been threatened by the prince of darkness itself.

No wonder she's the ugliest prophetess from the 19th century. She had quite a long history to hide.

OK. I'm afraid that I'll have a heart attack before I get this posted.

Steve
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK. I didn't have a heart attack!
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going to confess somthing. God knows it is in my heart anyway so here goes. I have believed from the get go(my son-in-laws dupation into SDA)that there was an evil about this and by even thinking it I felt dirty myself but God put those thoughts in my mind I didn't and He took me to scripture to find out the truth just as He did my daughter and now there is no doubt in my mind since everything that has happened these last 41/2 years has been under deception.

Who I ask is the author of deception?
John 8
43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Like I have said before I did not become a Bible scholar until all this happened. Even so God had put things in my path that would perk my mind to remember such as 2 scripture some 15+ years ago.

There was a young man from our church that was indroctinated into the moonies and he then after being deprogramed spoke to our church.

These are the verses that I have marked in a Bible I was using then. I might add these are the only verses up until this all hit that I ever marked in my Bible.
2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4
Love for God and One Another
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that[1] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

By God causing me to remember these verses I claim agreement with Him.

In the Name of Jesus I pray the devil be released from our precious loved ones, Carol
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SDA´s refer to egw as ¨the spirit of prophecy having the testomony of Jesus Christ¨. That means to get a full and truthful understanding of Jesus Chrisy folks must go through egw. Actyually, Jesus gives us thetestomony of Jesusand egw is a fraud, a deciver, a messanger of the evil one.
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EGW Estate can be pretty quick! Especially when they sense an ulterior motive lurking in the electrons!

My two questions to them, with their exact reply follows. I won't comment much after as there will be more to this.
__________________________________________________

Dear Steve,

Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. I'll be glad to try to answer your questions.

[Question 1 to EGW Estate] I can't seem to find where the term "Spirit of Prophecy" was first used by EGW.

[Answer 1] I don't know whether this is the first use, but I did find one occurrence of the expression in Early Writings, p. 231, quoting Rev. 19:10. This portion of Early Writings reproduces Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, which was published in 1858. The corresponding expression occurs there on p. 131.

[Question 2] I'd also like to know where it was first used in reference to the writings of EGW.

[Answer 2] I have no idea on this one. Personally, I think we too easily tend to make an equation: Spirit of Prophecy = Ellen G. White. In the Bible, it appears to me that the Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit, fulfilling one of His specific roles--that of bringing prophetic messages to God's people. Mrs. White's writings, then, are one manifestation of the Spirit of prophecy's workings, but they are not "the Spirit of prophecy" itself. This may be what most Adventists really mean when they use the term, but in the interest of Bible accuracy I'd like to see us be more careful about this. That's just my opinion.


> Thank you,
>
> Steve

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but perhaps this will be of some use. Thank you for writing, and God bless!
--------
___________________________________________________

PLEASE STAY TUNED FOR MORE! I have not posted the author's name at this time. Based on his response to my second question, I have a very important question to follow.

I'll post it when I get the Official EGW Estate answer!

Steve
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How interesting! Can't wait for the next installment, Steve! I'm quite amazed at how often I hear various degrees of back-tracking from the standard SDA teachings and meanings. It never seems to be accompanied by retraction of previous errors, just back-tracking or damage control.

Perhaps if the author of the above statement is really sincere, he/she will be moved to pursue even more Bible accuracy and find the truth of the gospel!

We can pray to that end.

Colleen
Flo (Flo)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 8:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Steve for pursuing this topic. I have a feeling it will have a big impact on my life-and probably others. The webmaster is sending you my email address- contact me when you can. Flo
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmmmmm. Has the EGW Estate stopped in it's tracks with my follow-up question?

It's been two days and still no response.
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I thought I'd get at least a LITTLE bit more than this. However, it does indicate how the EGW Estate holds EGW's writings.

Apparently, the manifestation of the Spirit of Prophecy through Ellen G. White is EQUIVALENT to the manifestations through all the Biblical writers. I.e., her writings ARE SCRIPTURE.

Following is my question to him with his response.
___________________________________________________

[My Question]

Thank you for that reply. You mention that Mrs. White's writings are one of the manifestations of the Spirit of prophecy. I would be delighted to discover other manifestations of the Spirit of prophecy. Can you please point out some specific writings, authors or speakers who have manifested this gift? I would love to read their materials as well.

Thank you,

Steve Pitcher

[EGW Estate response]

Dear Brother Pitcher,

Thank you for writing back. I can give you the names of some others who have manifested this gift: Paul, John, Daniel, Isaiah, etc.! I think you already have their works and have read them. No doubt you had in mind others after the close of Bible times. On this point, I am less well informed. I consider it highly probable that the Holy Spirit has spoken through others along the way, but I do not have names to give you. The point I made in my earlier message does not hang on our ability to identify other such manifestations of the Spirit of prophecy. Biblically, it appears to me that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, in His specific work of bringing prophetic messages to God's people.

Thanks for writing again, and God bless!
___________________________________________________

Although he states that it is "highly probable," he cannot identify manifestations of the Spirit of prophecy outside of the writers of the scripture and Ellen White!

Therefore, based on the title of this thread, EGW: Prophet or Profit, it appears that the EGW Estate is attempting to hook into the Best Seller of all time, the Bible, and make a PROFIT.

Further follow-ups to (hopefully) follow.

Steve
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Steve, Great question; revealing response. There it is in writing!

In spite of all the Adventists who say they do not hold EGW's writings to be on par witht he Bible, you've just posted a current statement from the official guardian of her works that reveals the truth about the issue.

Thanks, Steve!

Colleen
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a book printed by Pacific Press in 1972. The title of the book is ¨Jennifer Meets a Prophet¨. On nearly each page of this book egw isreferred to as a prophet. The book is geared for around a 3rd grade reading and interest level. It´s a very small book and totally corney.
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan_2,

Yep. My ex has a small book that she used with our kids when they were younger. It's a different title, don't remember what it was. But the whole point of the book was to impress young children with the "enormous blessing of having met His end-time prophet."

(Excuse me while I run to the restroom!)

I'm sick because I allowed that stuff to be taught to my kids.

Thank God He led me out in time to help them. My son seems safe from the snare, but my daughter needs all of our prayers.

Steve
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 5:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve I think we all carry guilt for what we were teaching our kids. We did not know better and we were doing what we thought was right. How old is your daughter? I will put her in prayer. My kids are doing good it took awhile for the older child to understand that what I once siad was sin is now ok. Thank Gofd for his love and understanding for us. Terry
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Terry,

My daughter is 13 years old. I appreciate all the prayers for now. I know prayer works. In cases like this, it may take MUCH prayer and even a huge load of patience.

Thank you,

Steve
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Steve, for your pursuit of answers from the White Estate. Indeed, they plainly equate the writings of Ellen White with the Bible. Being God is the ultimate Author of Scripture, Adventists gravely err in not accepting the Bible as both inerrant and all-sufficient.

Does anyone know when the White Estate came up with the idea of THOUGHT versus VERBAL inspiraton? They somehow fail to understand that words comprise (make up) thoughts. If we malign, rewrite, edit, delete, or disbelieve the WORDS of Scripture, we certainly cannot derive accurate theological thoughts and/or conclusions from such aberrant hermeneutics.

Let us reaffirm the full authority, integrity, infallibility, and inerrancy of sacred Scripture to the end that our lives may be brought under the authority of God's Word, that we may glorify Christ in our lives, individually and corporately as the church.

Inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. Truly, the Bible in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy has been integral to the church's faith throughout its history. Contrary to speculative opinion, inerrancy was not invented by scholastic Protestantism, or is a reactionary position postulated in response to negative higher criticism. Martin Luther affirmed that the Scriptures never "err." Interestingly, in the 1950s, Seventh-day Adventists claimed biblical "all-sufficiency" and "inerrancy" to deceive the late cult watcher, Dr. Walter Martin (see QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINE; 1957, page 11). The words, ALL-SUFFICIENT and INERRANT, are no longer found in current SDA doctrinal statements. This allows room for extrabiblical authority.

Recognition of the total truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture is essential to a full grasp and adequate confession of its authority. All in all, what Scriptures says, God says; its authority is His authority, for He is its ultimate Author. May He be glorified! Although the human writers' personalities and styles were expressed in what they wrote, the WORDS were divinely constituted.

Dennis J. Fischer
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 4:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve I am not sure I know your story. There have been so many people on here. Would it be a problem to refresh my morey. Do you live with your daughter and is the family together? My daughter just turned 13 she was 12 when I decided to leave. If you want you can e-mail me at tbawgus@hotmail.com. Thanks just keep believing in Gods love It has to be very hard for someone so close to you. I hate that my friends can not or will not see what I found. It would kill me if my kids were stuck in that. Well your friend in Christ Terry
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since we are discussing family concerns on this thread I guess I should pop in. So here goes: My son and his family will soon be living in America. They have a five year old child who will start kindergarten next fall. My son has already made it clear that he intends to send his children to sda schools. I frankly don't even think he knows very much about adventist teachings or traditions. I took him to sda Sabbath school from birth to around 4th grade. Then the sda pastor in Fresno quit the sda church and we started going to Valley Community Church in Fresno. We continued there until we relocated to another area of the state. My son went to Soquel Campmeeting nearly each summer as a child and he went to Camp Wawona every summer. Then when he went into the military he became good friends with several Navy chaplins who are sda. That's the extent of his sda'ism. His wife and the 5 year old little granddaughter of mine LOVE their jewlery and being Latin LOVE their salsa dancing, etc. I've decided to butt out and not say anythging but I can see nothing except family discontent in the future with his insisting on sda schooling for his children. What's going to be the reaction when the little girl and her mother find out that she can't wear her necklaces and earrings to school or when the child gets put in after school dancing classes and she goes to school and talks about her dancing classes? Even my son did a dance show for the local Pathfinder group. I think he's unaware of the sda teaching on this. Everyone was polite and they enjoyed it but he just doesn't know. I think his thinking is that the sda church is the religion of his grandma and grandpa so it must be the best religion on the planet because he loves his grandparents so much. Which brings me to another topic: How come there are so many extremely smart people who are sda yet they seem unable to read the Bible and then believe it for what it says? Example: a high rate of university graduates in the sda denomination and I'm sure when they read their scientific/medical journals they believe the articles for just what they say. Yet, these same really smart, intelligent people read their Bibles and believe the Bible through egw interpertation. I never could figure that one out.
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan2

I think the answer is that they don't read their Bibles. They read what is outlined for them, FROM their Bibles, but to read the Bible and only the Bible, without the "proper" instruction, is as foreign to them as reading the Book of Mormon would be to a believer. Their favorite quote is "line upon line. Preceipt upon preceipt". This quote, like so many others that they hold religiously to, is taken out of context. Put it back into context sometime and ask them if they REALLY think God is recomending this as a way to study His word.

I'll take "Sola Scriptura"

<><
Thomas
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, I'm convinced that it is not a lack of intelligence (IQ), but a lack of critical thinking, that is the problem. By the way, I spent some time in Fresno in the 80's, I wonder if we crossed paths along the way...?

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