| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Dennis, thank you for your explanation of Ham's trespass against Noah. I had never heard the crushing component before. And Doug, your study above of Jesus being the true representation of God (as opposed to the law being that representation!) was wonderful. Thanks! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Concerning SDA Facts that can't be found in scripture....Have you checked out Bacchiocchi's latest newsletter? He does not like the cuurent "Charismatic trend" going on in the SDA churches. LOL Praise God they are getting some kind of Spirit in there! I have to laugh. Here's what I wrote him, I always write back when I get these newsletters and he usually responds right away. We've developed a much nicer repore (sp?) than previosly. I'll let you know what he responds: Hey! What say you about King David? Regarding latest newletter. You know I HAVE to say something!  Blessings! Sabra M. Reed 2 Samuel 6:13Now it was told King David, saying, "The LORD has blessed the house of Obed-Edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with gladness. 13And so it was, when those bearing the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, that he sacrificed oxen and fatted sheep. 14Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. 15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet. 16Now as the ark of the LORD came into the City of David, Michal, Saul's daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and whirling before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. 17So they brought the ark of the LORD, and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. 19Then he distributed among all the people, among the whole multitude of Israel, both the women and the men, to everyone a loaf of bread, a piece of meat, and a cake of raisins. So all the people departed, everyone to his house. 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, "How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maids of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself! " 21So David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel. Therefore I will play music before the LORD. 22And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor." 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death. Well, guess he showed her! LOL!!!! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
ADDENDUM: AN ADDITIONAL THOUGHT ABOUT NOAH There is no Biblical record that Noah fathered any children AFTER the incident with Ham. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Dennis, As promised in a timely manner.........da da da daaaa: DAVID DANCING BEFORE THE LORD Samuele Bacchiocchi, Andrews University A PERSONAL NOTE: This essay is an edited shorter version of a much longer study on DANCE IN THE BIBLE which I would be glad to email to anyone interested in this subject. I prepared this study at the request of two magazine editors. For a free copy of the unabridged essay, contact me at sbacchiocchi@qtm.net The most important example of religious dancing in the Bible is undoubtedly the story of David dancing "before the Lord with all his might" (2 Sam 6:14) while leading the procession that brought the ark back to Jerusalem. The example of David is viewed by many as the most compelling biblical sanction of religious dancing in context of a divine service. In the chapter "Dancing to the Lord," found in the book Shall We Dance?, Timothy Gillespie, a Seventh-day Adventist youth leader, writes: " We can dance to the Lord like David, reflecting an outburst of excitement for the glory of God; or we can introspectively turn that excitement inward, reflecting on ourselves and our selfish desires." The implication of this statement seems to be that if we do not dance unto the Lord like David, we repress our excitement and reveal our self-centeredness. Is this what the story of David's dance teaches us? Let us take a close look at it. To say the least, David's dance before the ark poses serious problems. In the first place, David "was girded with a lined ephod" (2 Sam 6:14) like a priest and "offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord" (2 Sam 6:17). Note that the ephod was a sleeveless linen waistcoat garment to be worn only by the priests as an emblem of their sacred office (1 Sam 2:28). Why did David choose to exchange his royal robes for those of a priest? Ellen White suggests that David revealed a spirit of humility by laying aside his royal robes and attiring "himself in a plain linen ephod." This is a plausible explanation. The problem is that nowhere does the Bible suggest that the ephod could be legitimately worn by someone who was not a priest. The same holds true when it comes to sacrifices. Only the Levite priests had been set aside to offer sacrifices (Num 1:50). King Saul was severely rebuked by Samuel for offering sacrices: "You have done foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God" (1 Sam13:13). By offering sacrifices dressed like a priest, David was assuming a priestly role in addition to his kingly status. Such an action cannot be easily defended biblically David's Behavior. More problematic is David's manner of dancing. Ellen White says that David danced "in reverent joy before God."44 Undoubtedly this must have been true part of the time. But it would appear that during the dance, David may have become so excited that he lost his loin cloth, because Michal, his wife, rebuked him, saying: "How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants' maids, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!" (2 Sam 6:20). David did not dispute such an accusation nor did he apologize for what he did. Instead, he argued that he did it "before the Lord" (1 Sam 6:21), and that he was prepared to make himself even "more contemptible" (1 Sam 6:22). Such a response hardly reveals a positive aspect of David's character. Perhaps David was not troubled by his uncovering during the dance because that kind of exhibitionism was not uncommon. We are told that Saul also in an ecstatic dance "stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel, and lay naked all that day and all that night" (1 Sam 19:24; cf. 10:5-7, 10-11). It is a known fact that at the time of the annual festivals, special dances were organized where priests and nobles would perform acrobatic feats to entertain the people. These dances were done outside the Temple, in what was known as the "Women's Court." There is no mention, however, of the priests uncovering themselves during the show. David's act of "uncovering himself" during his ecstatic dance to celebrate the return of the ark to Jerusalem, must be seen as a deplorable incident which is hardly compatible with his call to "worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness" ( 1Chro 16:29; Ps 29:2). It is important to make a distinction between the descriptive and prescriptive elements of Bible stories. For example, we are told that when "David perceived that the Lord had established him king over Israel, and that he had exalted his kingdom for the sake of his people Israel," (2 Sam 5:12), he "took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem" (2 Sam 5:13). Are we to follow David's example by taking more "concubines and wives" when we perceive that the Lord has blessed our endeavors? Obviously not! We simply recognize that even great people like David, sometimes acted foolishly. No Dancing Music or Instruments in the Divine Service. Any probative value of the story of David dancing during the procession that brought the ark to Jerusalem, must be evaluated in the context of music ministry in the Temple, which David himself established. If David believed that dancing should be a component of divine worship, he would have instructed the Levitical choir on how and when to dance during the Temple service. After all, it was David who instituted the times, place, and words for the performance of the Levitical choir. He also "made" the musical instruments to be used for their ministry (1 Chron 23:5; 2 Chron 7:6), which were called "the instruments of David" (2 Chron 29:26-27). It is noteworthy that David never instructed the Levites to accompany the Temple's choir with the percussion instruments associated with dancing such as timbrel, tambourines, or, drums. Instead, he established that the Levitical choir was to be accompanied by the lyres and the harps. These were called "the instruments of song" (2 Chron 5:13) or "the instruments of God's song" (1 Chron 16:42). As indicated by their descriptive name, their function was to accompany the songs of praise and thanksgiving to the Lord (1 Chron 23:5; 2 Chron 5:13). The musicians who played the harps and the lyres would themselves sing the song to their own accompaniment (1 Chron 9:33; 15:16, 19, 27; 2 Chron 5:12-13; 20:21). In his book The Music of the Bible in Christian Perspective, Garen Wolf explains that "String instruments were used extensively to accompany singing since they would not cover up the voice or the 'Word of Jehovah' which was being sung."2 Great care was taken to ensure that the vocal praise of the Levitical choir would not be overshadowed by the sound of the instruments. Percussion instruments were never allowed in the religious services of the Temple, not because their sound was evil per se, but because such instruments were commonly used to produce entertainment music which was inappropriate for worship in God's House. By prohibiting instruments associated with dancing type of music, the Lord taught His people to distinguish between the sacred music played in the Temple, and the secular, entertainment music used in social life. The restriction on the use of instruments was meant to be a binding rule for future generations. When King Hezekiah revived Temple worship in 715 B. C., he meticulously followed the instructions given by David. We read that the king "stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David . . . for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets" (2 Chron 29:25). The cymbals were used to mark the transition between stanzas, and not to accompany the singing. Two and a half centuries later when the Temple was rebuilt under Ezra and Nehemiah, the same restriction was applied again. No percussion instruments were allowed to accompany the Levitical choir or to play as an orchestra at the Temple (Ezra 3:10; Neh 12:27, 36). This confirms that the rule was clear and binding over many centuries. The singing and the instrumental music of the Temple were to differ from that used in the social life of the people. Dancing in Pagan Worship. There are other references to religious dancing in the Bible, which need not detain us, because they have to do with the apostasy of God's people. There is the dancing of the Israelites at the foot of Mount Sinai around the golden calf (Ex 32:19). There is an allusion to the dancing of the Israelites at Shittim when "the people began to play harlot with the daughter of Moab" (Num 25:1). The strategy used by the Moabites women was to invite Israelite men "to the sacrifice of their gods" (Num 25:2), which normally entailed dancing. Apparently the strategy was suggested by the apostate prophet, Balaam, to Balak, king of Moab. Ellen White offers this comment: "At Balaam's suggestion, a grand festival in honor of their gods was appointed by the king of Moab, and it was secretly arranged that Balaam should induce the Israelites to attend. . . . Beguiled with music and dancing, and allured by the beauty of heathen vestals, they cast off their fealty to Jehovah. As they united in mirth and feasting, indulgence in wine beclouded their senses and broke down the barriers of self-control." There was shouting and dancing on Mount Carmel by the prophets of Baal (1 King 18:26). The worship of Baal and other idols commonly took place on the hill with dancing. Thus, the Lord appeals to Israel through the prophet Jeremiah: "Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding. . . . Surely the idolatrous commotion on the hills and mountains is a deception" (Jer 3:22-23, NIV). -- Christian regards Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., OH MY, HOW DIFFERENTLY WE VIEW THE BIBLE! | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Dear Sabra, thanks for sharing Samuele Bacchiocchi's response to you. I've attended numerous churches where religious/sacred dance took place. In almost all cases I've been deeply blessed and brought closer to my Saviour. Sometimes the service has been one where it was specific people dancing before the Lord with praise music that they acted out with motions. Other services have been where many of the congregation joined in praise with hands and body motions. In all situations I've seen, the dance has not been with "worldly" dance steps or motions. It is not the only way to worship but I PERSONALLY feel it is an option. Sometimes we are caught up in the "conotations" of the word dance and condemn it because of that. Physical expression of praise should be allowed. I've been in many sevices, both SDA and nonSDA where everyone just sat there and sang with no emotion from a hymnal. I remember not to long ago being in an SDA sevice where the song DEMANDED that I stand. I felt almost a sense of sacrilige if I stayed seated and did not stand to give honor to my Lord. I didn't want to create an "incident" so I just quietly stood up and walked to the back along the side of the church to stand. If I truely believe the words sung then I can't remain sitting complaciently. If any of you know me then you would know I'm conservative in many things and the last thing to be expected is for me to raise my hands or move in celebration or praise. God has been working on me to free me to worship in a demonstrative way in His presence. Is it wrong if someone doesn't? NO! ! Is it wrong if they do? NO ! ! There are times when the words bring me to my knees as I sing. I find myself unable to remain seated or standing in His presence. We worship an awesome and wonderful God. Please keep me in your prayers. Richard | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, thanks for posting Bacchiochi's response. Perhaps the thing I find most amazing is his explaining away David's dressing as a priest. But then, Ellen White never talked about David's pre-figuring of Jesus in that way, so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise. Jesus is our king and priest forever, Hebrews points out, and he was foreshadowed in the OT by two people: Melchizedek and David. Melchizedek is the most explicit type of the king/priest, and the author of Hebrews explains this connection in chapter 7. David, on the other hand, is the father of Jesus--"Jesus, Son of David". God promised David that a king from his lineage would sit on his throne forever, and that king is Jesus. In Israel the roles of king and priest were distinct. David, however, while not being an actual Aaronic priest, did involve himeslf in the worship and the religious services of Israel in a hands-on manner unique to him. David established Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and it was David who established Jerusalem as the center of worship. He also made changes in the worship ceremonies and established certain guidelines for music and specific ceremonies, etc. David's involvement in the establishement of Jerusalem as the religious capital as well as his involvement in the services was not part of his kingly job description. Because he was king, he had the authority to do those things, but those activities and decisions were normally considered the province of the priests and levites. Further, when David and his men ate the shewbread from the temple when he was fleeing from King Saul, he set a precedent that Jesus referred to when the Pharisees accused him of breaking the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:3-4) He reminds the Pharisees that David's eating the shewbread was technically unlawful; only priests were to eat it. On one level, the point here is that both David and Jesus and his disciples were within the spirit of the law. On another level, however, the similarity between David's "desecration" and Jesus's "desecration" is that the annointing of God trumps the law. David was God's annointed king, and he also crossed over between the roles of king and priest. The Bible is clear that David prefigured Jesus, and Jesus came as God's annointed king and priest. God's annointing gives the annointed one authority that mere laws cannot control. Regardless of what Bacchiocchi says about David's dancing (and I personally disagree with him), David's donning of the priestly ephod was no accident. David was chosen by God to prefigure Jesus, and whether or not David was conscious of the crossover role he would play, he did play out that role in some sell-defined ways that we can read about today. It was not until Jesus came that some of the spiritual implications of the events in the Old Testament became clear. I believe that this instance with David as well as his eating the sacred bread and his functioning in the temple service are examples of Old testament facts that have new meaning in the light of Christ. Aventists will always have trouble with seeing these connections because they do not generally interpret the Old Testament by using the New; rather, they do it backwards. They intepret the New Testament by the Old. As far as dancing is concerned--I wondered for years why God gave people a talent for dance if it was sinful to use it. Now I see why he gave it: so we can praise him with our whole selves! Praise God for equipping us to worship him in spirit and in truth! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks so much Colleen, that is wonderful! You know, I used to watch my oldest daughter-now 11-when she was a baby. Anytime music was on she would dance to the beat at a year or so old. I thought then that it had to be a natural thing we are born with and surely if an innocent baby would do it it couldn't be sin! Funny how God plants those little seeds that take years to sprout! I am so overjoyed with praise and worship and so glad to be free! Richard-Seekr777, I will keep you in prayer, may the Lord continue to bless you! | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
I used to dance. Haven't danced for 20 years now. SDA beat it out of me. However, last year, I took my daughter to a Father/Daughter dance at the church I attend. They had cleared out the "sanctuary" (don't know if that's the right word), put up a party ball and strobe lights, and let all the fathers dance with their daughters. Just tonight I showed my daughter the 8" by 10" photo that was professionally done of her and me at the dance. I told her I'd frame it and hang it up. She was SOOOOOOOOOO delighted. Anyone ever read the book, Real Christians You guys have ALL been a blessing. Doug, Dennis & Sabra, thank you for the information above. It is all helpful. Steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Sounds like fun Steve! I'm still mad that I didn't get a prom!!  Guess I'll live vicariously through my kids, LOL! | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Yeah Sabra, that's what I've done! Mary has gone to one homecoming, and three proms so far, and I've loved it! I too am mad I didn't have a prom. Another thing I have enjoyed is shopping for and picking out Mary's class ring. Love you all!! Carol #2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'll never forget the first time Richard and I attended a Friday night football game at our boys' school. Neither of us cares much for football, but we sat their screaming for our team feeling SO NORMAL and SO FREE! What a big deal such a seemingly little thing can be! Colleen | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Yes. It's the little things. I know that my daughter lights up whenever we remember the dance. My mother's husband might get along better with me if I accepted a beer from him when he offers one. I was raised in a family that would have looked a little strange at you if you said, "I don't drink." Of course, I went to the other extreme. It really is the little things that make a world of difference in interpersonal relationships. Steve | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Steve it is great to see things the way you are now. I feel the same way we were so into ourselves and being right and pure that we were not really letting people see a loving person who cared and loved people. They only saw us as weird. I am at the point now were it is hard for me to even be around other christians because I think they focus also on the externals. And what harm would it be if you danced or took a drink and made them feel comfortable around us. I am glad to hear someone else seeing things in a new light. I think Jesus was our example and who did he hang with? Well thats my soapbox for the day. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Do any of you remember Pathfinders? Back when I was a child the sda church still promoted signing up for the draft as a CO. And, we were taught it was sinful to dance. Then at the weekly Pathfinder meetings we had to march. Yes, I am not kidding. We had to march as if they were training us for military service. I used to ask the Pathfinder leaders how come we had to march. I was always told because the church had the health message and marching was good exercise. Then I would tell the Pathfinder leaders that I would rather they puit on records and let usdance, that dancing was good exercise too and a lot more fun. Actually, I was a rather easy going kid but I hated Pathfinders so much that finilly my parents just gave in to me and let me quit. I had been in Girl Scouts before and my parents mademe quiut GS. I have never asked how come but I assume it was because the leaders were scheduling too many Saturday activities. Looking back on it and looking currently at the things the GS leaders do with the kids on Saturdays I just don´t see that it is much different than what the sda´s do with their own kids on Saturdays but that´s how it was and that´s how it still is. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have a question about Adevenism that I have never gotten a very good answer to. So, I will present it here now. ¿ How come the sda church does not recite the creeds? The Apòstiles Creed and the Nicean Creed? How come, too they won´t say the Our Father in unison? My mother told me it is because we are not to pray like the heathen do and when reciting preparted prayers, even the Our Father then we are not using our own words so to God those prayers are meaningless. However, as you all know, the Lutheran church is a lutrigical church, which means that thjey practice congreational prayer. For me, thisis very meaningful. When I partisipate in the congreational prayers I think about the words I am saying and those words really are prayed to God from my heart. And, what about the creeds? In the Apostiles Creed it says, ¨We believe in one God, the Creater of the universe and all that isin it¨. Then the second part says, Ï believe in HJesus Christ, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the vergin Mary, true God of True God, who came to us as the Saviour as fortold by prophecy. He lived, died and was resurrected on the third day so that we may have eternal live.¨Then the third part says, Ï believe in the Holy Spirit. The sustainer, conforter and counseler of all humankind¨ I don´t think I am getting the words excetally 100% correct but that is the basics of the creeds. How come the sda church won´t acknowledge their Christianity by reciting the creeds? Frankly, I LOVE reciting the creeds because they totally sum up the Christian faith and beliefs. Please, answer. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Adventism prides itself on not having a creed, a man-made statement of belief. They have "only the Bible". It's an ironic claim, though, because they do have the 27 Fundamentals. And yes, your mother is probably giving you the best SDA answer available; I also heard that statement about not praying in vain repetitions like the heathen. Saying the same prayer every week, all together, would, for the Adventists, consitute a "vain repetition". (That being said, when I was small, some churches DID say the Lord's Prayer together after the congregational prayer every week!) There is no good answer, Susan. There are plenty of excuses, but no really good answer. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
I have a quick question. Has anyone visited the following Discussion Site. http://www.everythingimportant.org/ I signed in and felt like I'd fallen through a "time warp". This site makes the "normal" SDA web sites seem GREAT. Richard PS: It is not an SDA site but most of those there are disaffected SDAs. | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Richard/Seekr777, I just spent a couple of times online perusing the website. WOW! You're right. It's like a time warp. However, it reminds me of many that I hung around with in the church. Mostly members or hangers-on of the Adventist Forum. Many had come under criticism of some kind from the church. I used to be criticized frequently for my Sabbath school lessons (I refused to use the quarterly) and no one ever wanted to leave the class to join worship in the sanctuary. Even if I dismissed them on time! I got "beat up" for this frequently. The everythingimportant.org site seems to be run by one person in particular, who had a run-in with the Richardson, TX church. The SDA church attracts the truly weird. I was really weird. But this guy, Eugene Shubert, "Teacher/Evangelist" must have been crazy. They had to call the police to keep him away. Now, whenever I look at someone's beliefs, I want to center of their teaching of Christ and the Trinity. The following are a few tidbits written by Shubert. ___________________________________________________ Under the heading: The Mystery of Christís Human Nature "Our doctrinal position on this issue is that there no significant difference between the best Trinitarian view and the best non-Trinitarian view of God." NO DIFFERENCE?! There better be a difference. Either Jesus IS truly God Almighty in the flesh or he is NOT. You can't have this one both ways without using screwed-up human logic. Either we worship the Father (non-trinitarian) or we worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit (trinitarian.) ___________________________________________________ Further on, there is a section of statements followed by "supporting" texts of scripture. One of the statements in particular caught my attention. "The Father is a God above Jesus" Now I really wonder. Are they being sloppy or is this "teacher/evangelist" being careful with his wording? He says, the Father is A God... A God??? Are there other gods above Jesus? Is Jesus one of others of his kind under this Father God? ___________________________________________________ He says, "... above Jesus." I guess he forgot the books of Hebrews and Philippians are still in the Bible. Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son He says, 'YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.' " If the Father is a God "above" Jesus, what in the universe is He doing referring to Jesus as "O God" and saying that Jesus' throne is forever and ever?" Philippians 2:1-11 is a great passage on Jesus setting aside some of His prerogatives of being equal with the Father, and eventually returning to receive praise from every knee and every tongue in heaven and earth. ___________________________________________________ Later, he makes this AMAZING statement: "Jesus, while infinite, yet not equal to the Father, must rank like one of the infinite cardinal numbers. I then received an unusually strong flash of insight. The Father knows the end from the beginning but the Son only knows all possible futures with perfect comprehension plus all that the Father reveals to Him." BEWARE: Srong flashes of insight are one of three things: 1. From God the Holy Spirit. 2. From our own minds, we often have flashes of insight, brilliant, stupid, mediocre, but they're ours. 3. From Satan the Father of Lies. Apparently he forgot Phil. 2 where Jesus chose to not use certain aspects of His equality with God while on earth. ___________________________________________________ I also read their, "The Manifesto Of Reform-Minded Seventh-Day Adventists" There is no mention of coming to Jesus and asking Him to cleanse us from all our sins. There is much mention of becoming perfect. Either you're perfect or you're not. If you're not perfect already, THEN IT'S TOO LATE! YOU NEED JESUS!!! EVEN IF YOU REACH PERFECTION, YOU NEED TO REPENT! A member of the FAF Bible study group I attend brought a wonderful insight to the book of Job which he had learned from the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee. Job was a man upright in all his ways. There was no act he left undone, no sin committed that is recorded in the scriptures. At the end of the book what do we find Job doing? REPENTING IN DUST AND ASHES! He may have been perfect, BUT THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. He still had to repent because he was a fallen human being like all of us. ___________________________________________________ OK. Enough of my review. Anyone who denigrates Jesus from His proper position is Antichrist. Anyone who denigrates the Holy Spirit is Antichrist. (Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven!) These people rely on EGW to interpret scripture. Of course, this shows without a doubt that Ellen Gould Harmon White and her husband James White were Arian (they believed Jesus was a created being.) No matter what backtracking EGW may have done in later years, the FACT that she never retracted any earlier statements stands as a testimony to her being an Antichrist. It seems as though the "everything important" website has nothing important for Christians. They have many things of importance for lost Seventh-day Adventists. They have many dangerous things for those seeking forgiveness for their sins and salvation in Jesus. I praise Jesus I'm free! Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
No, no, no!!! They are not neo-Arian! Nope, not them. no way, not at all, uh-UH! (except for the fact that they are.) | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Steve, I have a ? about one of the comments by that fellow that you posted above. It is where he referrs to God, the Father simply as Father God. The sda minister here locally will only refer to God as Father God. I have never asked the sda pastor how come that is. I attemd the sda church nearly each week with my mother and I pay very close attention and I have not yet heard Jesusor the Holy Spirit referred to as God, nor have I ever heard the word Trinity said in this local sda church. However, when the pastor wants to refer to Jesus he simply says the word Jesus and when he wants to refer to the HS he simply says the words Holy Spirit but when he wants to refer to God the Father he will always say the words, ¨Fathert God¨. I´ve always thought he must have a reason for his using the terms he does but I don´t ask him. BTW, I recently went with my mom over here to the church and we were in the ministers officeand I was scanning his bookshelves. I noticed he had the books, ¨Sabbath in Crisis¨, Ä Theologins Journey¨and ¨The White Lie¨. I noticed some other books too that I have but I can´t think of their titles right now but I´m sure you all get my drift on the type of books I´m referring to. On the way out of hisoffice I said, Ï see that you and me have a lot of the same books¨: He was very sweet, smilied and said something to the effect of, ¨Yes, I´m sure we do¨and with that I made my exit. But, can anyone out there explain to me how come the sda´s don´t refer to the H and to Jesus as God and then they refer to God, the Father as Father God. WQhat does that imply? |
