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Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all please keep me in your prayers as I struggle with my mom about this issue. My mom is elderly and as you all know by now totally abhorrs that I attend a local Lutheran church. Earlier today I was taking her on some errands. She also is quite resentyful that she has to be dependednt to get around and to seek help with her household chores, etc. She has always been a downer sort of person. Myself and several loved ones have suggested to her over the years to get help for depression but we don't mention it anymore because her reply is, "I'm not crazy" and she leaves the room or shows her frustration with our caring in other ways. Well, on the errands this a.m. she mentioned some wrongs that different family members have done to her. Then she said that she has forgiven the. I didn't coomment yet but I wondered how come if she has forgiven them then why does she bring this up in conversation so much and why does she dwell on it so much but I didn't say anything. Then she said that in the Bible it says God will forgive us as we forgive others. She said that the others have not asked her for her foegiveness so therefore God has not forgiven them. Well, one of these people has long ago died and thus cannot come to my mom pleeding forgiveness anymore. So, I blurted out, "So, you think ----- ----- will burn in hell because he never asked for your forgiveness?" Then the ssss really hit the fan. She said, "Oh you Lutherans just think heaven will be open to everyone". Again, I didn't say anything but, yes, Lutherans generally like to believe that heaven is big enough for everyone and that the blood of Jesus covers us all. But, she went on to tell me that she has been to numerous seminars on forgiveness (all sda, bu the way) and that in order to obtain forgiveness from God we must have forhgiveness from all the people we have donew wrong to. Well, frankly I think that is i possible. That is how come we live with a prayful heart and are constantly living in a state of grace and perputual forgiveness. But, I tried to explain this to my mom but she got off on a tangent about infant baptism and how babies can't sin so the Lutherans even want to get them into heaven and i lost the conversation a lonmg time ago and she demanded I take her home and now she wants to sell her house and get rid of everything and move into a retirement home. But, do the sda's really teach such a warped understanding on forgiveness? P-L-E-A-S-E, all of you enlighten me on this. Thanks.
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, I'm so sorry to hear of your struggle, your family dynamic sounds so similar to mine.

Scripture tells us that the obstacle is "blinders", and that they are only removed in Jesus. Legalists need our prayers to be able to receive the grace God wants to give them more fully in Christ. In the meantime, live your life as fully as you possibly can in Jesus and maybe they'll get jealous enough of your wonderful relationship with your Savior and Lord that they'll look at what you have found very seriously just one time. That's all the Holy Spirit needs, just one chance at a truly seeking heart...
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still does the sda church teach that we must seek forgiveness of all the people we have wronged before God will forgive us? I don't even understand how a person would EVER be able to come clean with all the folks s/he have ever done wrong to. Just what is the sda understanding of forgiveness?
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the church actually teaches that people must receive forgiveness from others for all the wrongs they've committed, but they have officially taught that even one unconfessed sin, forgotten or not, will keep you out of heaven.

I believe, Susan, that your mother struggles with anger and disillusionment, and somehow she feels that she will be vindicated if she can believe others will be punished for their trespasses against her.

I'll pray that you can leave her misery in God's hands and be able to live joyfully in front of her, unmoved by her outbursts.

Colleen
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a bit of family trivia: my moms side of the family generally has a very serious, solome, non-fun-loving type of personality. They don't laugh at anything and tend to see the horrors in life rather than the awsom blessings we all can experience each day if we choose to. My dads kin are generally a ball to be around. The sda kin on my dads side are a lot more fun and joyful to be with than anyone on my dads side. WEll, I do have two cousins on my moms side that are cool but the others tend to be real downer sorts. I was extremely blessed in this regard to have the personality that is of my dads side of the family. Even my children as they were growing up would comment on this sometimes. But, back to the topic of forgiveness: In the book of Timothy (I can't remember if it's 1st or 2nd Tim.) there is a text that saays if the repentent theif can't make resitution and really in his heart wants to then he should go forth and do good for the poor. I do think my moms EXTREME hostility with my attending the Lutheran is really not anything to do with me but is because she resents that "she raised me right and I've turned my back on the truth". And, this then gets into the sda understanding of what happens at death. They can tell me all day and all night that they believe they will see Jesus in the twinkling of an eye but I know they know it could be zillions and zillions of years in their understanding of what happend at death. SDA funerals are depressing. I went to a JW funeral several years ago and it was even more depressing than an sda funeral. And, mix this with the sda teaching about grace (Grace = Jesus + Sabbath) and it makes for a lot of sad people. I always did notice that the same letters spell "sad" and "sda". But, I do believe the sda understanding of forgivness is skewed. I think it goes something like this, "All sis must be accounted for by the time death strikes so you'd best remember each and every one". Then, the sinner is to pleed for forgiveness from the person s/he did wrong to and it then is putting the burdon not on the one seeking forhgiveness but on the one that can grant or not grant the forgiveness. But, at least the sinner has done what God requires. In the Apostiles Creed, or is it the Nicean Creed we ask God to forgive us of our known and unknown sins. I now understand how come the sda does not recite the creeds. They view sin differently that I have come to understand sin. I think they view sin as breaking the 10 commandments, especially the 4th (3rd for us Lutherans out there) and that only. This totally leaves out so much of the teachings in the N.T., especially the teachings of Jesus where He tells the people what sin is and what love is and when He tells the young man who his brother is. I think all these things tie in together and when truly believed can make for a very unhappy sad person. I've pretty much decided that true Christian joy is nearly non-exsistant in the sda church. I attend nearly every week and if it is there at all then I am missing it. But, frankly I don't think it is there. I don't observe the peace of Christ risin. I guess this got rather long. I'm very frustrated this evening and wanted to vent. Thanks. BTW, just what is it that I do or that I don't do or what is it that the sda's do or don't do that really makes them any different from anyone else? It's got to be a mental thing because there is nearly no difference in behavior.
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to their own statistics, the SDA divorce rate is the same as for non-SDAs. They boldly claim that they are model commandment-keepers--even being mentioned in the Bible (smile). Furthermore, they don't KEEP the Sabbath either according to directives found in the Torah. At best, they are "cafeteria" religionists that pick and choose whatever they like best from the Torah and Ellen White.

The best "Sabbath keeper" I was ever acquainted with was an Orthodox Jew, and he was an evolutionist and divorced twice. One day I asked him, "Why do you observe the Sabbath and other festivals so strictly?" He replied, "it makes me feel good." He further added, "I am Jewish. I can't help that--we don't have a choice; it just makes me feel better."

By His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I love that term: "Cafeteria" relgionists!

And what a great point about the Sabbath making the otherwise fairly unspiritual Jew "feel better". The shadow of Christ (Sabbath--see Colossians 2:16-17) is a powerful symbol. It was intended to bring great blessings BEFORE Jesus came because it pointed forward to the reality of Him. Now that Jesus has come and we know him, to embrace the shadow is still going to have some powerful counterfeit results.

Satan, being the deceptive opportunist that he is, always mimics God's reality with clever counterfeits. He convinces people to embrace a symbol which is now emptied of its original meaning. If we embrace a created object ( a day of the week) instead of the Creator, we are embracing an idol. Satan insinuates his influence into our loyalties to things which blind us to the reality of Jesus.

I'm not at all surprised that the Jew you mentioned found that Sabbath made him feel good. And I'm not surprised so many "sloppy" or even meticulous Adventists find Sabbath makes them feel good. There are spiritual implications to embracing an idol.

Jesus calls us from our idols and offers to fill those places in our hearts where we embraced idolatry. He becomes our reward! He fills our emptiness and calms our franticness. He gives us his peace--and it's continuous, not limited to a 24-hour time period!

Praise Him!

Colleen

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