| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I'm involved on a rather interesting conversation on CARM with some die-hards on the issue of forgiveness, mostly in relation to the investigative judgment. Recently, what I've noticed is that when you understand from the New testament that Christ came to take away our sins and they are forgiven, that alone destroys the investigative judgment theory. If all sins are taken away, there can be none in the heavenly sanctuary. In addition, Adventists place such heavy emphasis on our confessing sins for forgiveness that it makes forgiveness of sins the responsibility of the believer. (Other Christian demoninations are guilty of this as well.) I'm turning to my good friends here at FAF for some help. Since many of you were once SDA you'd know better than me. What exactly do Adventists believe about our forgiveness, and what relation does this have with the IJ? I'd like to hear some thoughts from those who'd been in the system. Thanks. | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
In the Investigative Judgment, all of our sins IN THE PAST were forgiven by the shed blood of Christ on the cross. All current and future sins recorded in the "books" in heaven will remain until our "character" reflect the perfect character of Christ, specifically in regards to keeping of the ten commandments. As William Johnsson said to Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg show in 1985, "Pardon has been entered by my name in the heavenly record." Martin then asked, "But have your sins been blotted out by the blood of Jesus." Johnsson responded, "Pardon has been entered by my name." It is very clear that the blood of Jesus does not "keep on cleansing us from all sin" I John 1:9, in SDA theology. Once we've been forgiven, we are responsible to keep the commandments to: 1. Prove God is right. (Job took quite a lecture from God starting in Job 38, for trying to prove that God is right!) 2. By keeping the Sabbath, prove to God that we are "safe to save," a comment heard often in Adventism. This way God can be sure there won't be another rebellion in heaven. Hmmmmm, I guess God saving us is not enough, we have to prove that we're "safe." I'm not safe! That's why I needed God's salvation through the blood of Jesus which keeps on cleansing me from all sin. The part of I John 1:9, "If we confess our sins,..." ___________________________________________________ omologeo {hom-ol-og-eh'-o} to confess, i.e. to admit or declare one's self guilty of what one is accused of. ___________________________________________________ Once we confess that we are guilty of what we are accused of (being sinful creatures, the Sons and Daughters of Adam) then Jesus' blood will continually cleanse us from sin, making us Sons and Daughters of the Second Adam, Jesus. (Read Romans chapter 5) Although I continually thank God for His forgiveness of my various sins, it is that continual cleansing of all my sins (my sinful nature) that makes me His adopted son. I am such a sinful person, that it would be impossible for me to even begin to remember, and then confess EVERY SINGLE SIN that I am guilty of. However, once I've confessed that I am guilty of all that I have been accused of, Jesus' blood continues to cleanse me. No legalism, no repetetive prayers, no worrying about whether God has fogiven this sin or that sin. He's forgiven them all. I agree, many Christians of many denominations are guilty of the legalistic aspect of confessing our sins, while ignoring the need to confess our sinful nature. Steve | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Steve, I marvel that some of the SDA's I run into boldly proclaim that they "keep the Sabbath day holy." What an outrageous claim! Talk about no fear of God... I wouldn't DARE make such a claim now, even looking back at the "best" Sabbaths I kept "most holy". What an insult to God to think a wretched scoundrel like me could keep anything holy. Utter nonsense! AGH! Somebody throw some water on me or I'm gonna go off on these guys... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Right, Steve. Adventism teaches that if we have even one unconfessed sin, that will keep us from being saved. It's not enough that Jesus died; that doesn't cover our sins if we don't literally confess them specifically. (Adventists do not openly teach that doctrine in schools these days, at least not in California! But EGW definitely said it!) The investigative judgment, which supposedly began in 1844, will continue until every person who has ever lived has been reviewed. The living do not know when their names will "come up". If they are involved in a sin at the time God is reviewing their name and concludes his review of them, that sin will keep them from heaven if they did not get to confess it before God's review of them was finished. I used to hear the hypothetical situation of being caught at the second coming (or being killed in a fire) inside a movie theater, etc. There goes salvation! That's also why suicide is automatically unpardonable; no chance to confess. Further, every time an Adventist sins, he loses his salvation until he confesses that sin. (That's probably one reason Adventists are not to say they're saved; every sin puts them out of grace, and if they believe they're saved, they won't take their sins seriously and get busy repenting.) Jesus' death guarantees forgiveness fo all one's sins, but not unless those sins are remembered and confessed. Further, if a person never becomes "better" and progressively sins less and less, he stands a good chance of being lost. Adventists teach that God will measure the direction of a person's life when deciding if he may be saved. If he is improving, that will work in his favor. If he is not, or, perish the thought, if he is getting worse, that will tell God that he is not worthy of salvation. Jesus' death is only a ticket for redemption. Without it, no sins could be forgiven in God's eyes, even those of which we repent. With it, we have a chance to be forgiven in God's eyes. It's still up to us to pursue holiness and to rigorously examine ourselves and repent of every sin, purposefully putting our sinful lusts behind us. (Like we ever could!) Since Adventists see the sinful nature as something physical (we inherit sin through our genes) and not as something intrinsically spiritual (we are born with spirits dead in sin and disconnected from God), they have a hard time confessing their sinful natures. Since they do not believe that people have a literal spirit that knows and goes to God, they have no choice but to see sin as physical weaknesses and acting out. To most Adventists, forgiveness is not linked with literal spiritual awakening and new birth. To an Adventist, the new birth is a metaphor symbolized by baptism: dying to self and rising to new life. That translates into deciding one no longer wants to sin and vowing to give up one's sins because God said to, allowing God to help one keep the comamndments. New birth does not equal literally coming to life spiritually and entering a new reality. Many Adventists will say that their new birth happened at baptism. I hope this makes sense; it barely makes sense to me! It was always intensely frustrating and agonizing worrying about my sins and my penchant to sin. I am so grateful that Jesus has given me freedom and new life in him! Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Ah Colleen......."the general tendency of the life".....You bring back such memories with that concept. I can remember having lots of thoughts like, "Man, I hope I don't ever die in a car accident because I'll probably swear right as I'm crashing and then I might be lost." I remember discussing this as young man with an SDA Bible teacher. His reply was something to the effect of, "Well, I think in a case like that, God would probably take into account the general tendency of the life. It's not so much the ups and downs in our life that makes us saved or lost as it is the general tendency of our life". Even going through 16 years of SDA education and Bible classes, somehow I never picked up on the simple truth that it's NOT what I do or don't do that saves me, it's not even the tendency of what I do that saves. It's what Christ has already DONE that saves me! Hallelujah! It is my status in Christ, the unmerited righteousness He credits to my account that assures me of salvation. I also liked Steveís comments on the ridiculousness of proving ourselves ìsafe to saveî. We will never be safe to save based on our own merits only or on any proof that we could give. We are saved wholly on the merits of the One who purchased us so dearly. We are found to be safe in Him alone. The funny thing is, if I were to die in a car wreck today, I would probably call out to Him knowing that whatever may come I will always be with the LordÖÖÖ.funny how He changes us when we cease trying to change ourselves. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wow, Chris--what a great statement: "Funny how He changes us when we cease trying to change ourselves"! It is absolutely unbelievab le what a difference it makes to KNOW that no matter what happens, as you said, I will always be with the Lord! It's no wonder so many of us struggled with guilt and anxiety and just plain confusion as we tried to made Jesus fit into our compulsion to do good. I realized in a sort-of deeper way this morning as I was studying a passage in Romans that when the Bible says Jesus died for us when we were sinners (Romans 5:8), that means something for us personally, not just corporately. I remember knowing that text but assuming it meant that in a magnanimous gesture Jesus sacrificed himself in order to rescue a reprobate race. It's only meaning for me was that if I acknowledged my sinfulness and repented of my sin and vowed to give it up, then Jesus' sacrifice would count in my favor. It would only happen, though, after I gave up my sin. If I continued to sin knowingly, I would be out of grace until I repented again. In other words, Jesus' sacrifice was a universal good deed that could help us if we committed to being good. Now I see that Jesus literally died for me and removed the curse of my sin WHILE I WAS STILL A SINNER. Wow! That text in Romans isn't just a general text about Jesus and the planet; it's a specific statement of Jesus and each of us. He actually makes my repentance possible, and He makes me new inside. Thanks for the great post, Chris! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Colleen, My wife is trying to get a username accepted to use the forum. I'm not sure who's in charge of that, and I'm sure you guys are all busy, but she's kinda antsy, lol. She sent an email about a week ago. Thanks, Joel | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I went to hear a guest speaker several years ago. She is a nun with an order in the deep south somewhere. She was a dynamic speeker and I left having been truly blessed from hearing her. The one thing that she said that has made such an inpact on me was this: Even if I was to ever be the only person to have ever lived on this earth Jesus would still have died for me. Now when the good sister said that I was just blown away. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Joel, we'll take care of her directly! Sorry! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I just realized that I should clarify my answer above. Richard usually takes care of requests for passwords on Saturday, so his goal is to assign them within a week. Last Saturday, though, he was busy finishing designing Proclamation, and he didn't get the passwords done. We'll try to get all of you who've been waiting for passwords signed up this weekend! Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Soooo . . . . Have we seen Joelís wife post yet? Or did I miss the obvious? | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Hey Jerry, My wife got the acceptance email the other day (Thanks Richard and Colleen!) but shes a bit nervous and scared about what to post. She's afraid of saying something stupid. I think she'll post eventually. gotta give her some encouragement. Joel | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Great Joel, Just tell her to take her time. We'll all be ready to say, "Welcome!" Jerry | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Joel - tell her we'd love to hear from her when she's ready, and not to worry one bit! I stay quiet at times due to my fear of sounding stupid. Then other times I just speak up anyway, what does it matter? You all seem to accept me and like me the way I am. At times I feel like an idiot because it seems compared to most of you I know nothing! Many of you seem to be such Bible scholars, and very "deep." ("Deep" is meant as intellectual, not as in "you know what!") But as your wife gets acquainted with us all, she'll become more comfortable and won't worry about sounding dumb. Carol #2 |
