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Archive through August 27, 2003Loneviking20 8-27-03  9:25 am
Archive through September 05, 2003Another_Carol20 9-05-03  8:51 am
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Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Carol, it's funny in a sad sort of way, how folks twist around the simplicity of the gospel.

One of the funniest stories about Sabbath keeping involved Pitcairn island. Many of the folks on the island were descended from the mutineers of the HMS Bounty. Much of the island converted to Adventism in the 1800's. If I remember the story correctly (help me out here Colleen or Steve) the island sat on the international date/time line. Adventist pastors visiting nearby islands on Saturday had a problem going to Pitcairn at the same time as the Sat./Sabbath on the nearby islands was Sunday on Pitcairn.

The solution was to petition and get the date/time line changed so Pitcairn would be on the same day/time as the other islands. Now it was o.k. to hold church services there along with those of other nearby islands.

Crazy, no? In the book 'from Sabbath to Lords' day' the author points out that if two people left Chicago, Ill. to go around the world, with one going east, the other west and each keeping the 'sabbath'---by the time they met they would be off by two days from each others' sabbath. Proof once again that the sabbath was meant for a specific people in a specific locale.........
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, in answer to your question regarding whether we were aware of these absurdities while stil in Adventism: In my case, the answer is "Yes and No". "Yes", in that I must have been aware of some of the difficulties with modern day Sabbath keeping and the differences between the OT and the NT or I wouldn't have spent so much time discussing what consituted correct Sabbath observance. "No", in that I was so sure there really was a right answer. If we just viewed scripture through the interpretative council of God's modern day prophet, Ellen White, then we could arrive at the right answer for today. We could acheive correct Sabbath keeping for our time. Even if some of the OT restrictions didn't apply, Ellen had reinterpreted them for us and we could bank on her writings as trustworthy directives from God. It's hard to understand how otherwise reasonably intelligent people could think in this way...... unless it's all you've ever known from the cradle....... at least that's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it.

Chris
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you so much for putting your past in view of all to see. I realize that it must be very hard and for that I have much admiration for all of you who have had to turn your back on much of what you were taught as children.

As I have made statement of my church affiliation I would have to say that my home life was a legalistic style as I can remember my mother saying to me one day when I was sewing on a Sunday afternoon that I should not be doing that. I didn't question it and pretty much did not do it in her sight. Thus I am sure that many SDA's do. I know that my son-in-law did not go to church on the Sabbath when he and the boys were on vacation and as the boys said "They didn't get up in time".

I have always wondered how much meat is sneaked in when no one of the chruch can see. I know that Colleen shared a few months ago about a situation where she was put in a most uncomfortable position all because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time but it allowed her at the time to feel quilty. Such goings on are not conducive to a healthy mental life.

Again I say thanks for coming forth with your pligrimage in SDA, Carol
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LINGERING SABBATH MEMORIES

It was almost Sabbath, on a late Friday afternoon in 1963, when I first heard that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas. Living in a boy's dormitory at Sheyenne River Academy; Harvey, North Dakota, it was almost a miracle that this tragic news had even reached me. You see, radios were on the strict "forbidden list" for having in our dorm rooms.

However, after Friday night vespers, I eagerly joined many other boys in listening to the developing news about the shocking death of President Kennedy. I was so delighted that some boys knew how to successfully hide their radios from the routine searches of the Boy's Dean (smile). So, we anxiously clustered into a few dorm rooms where radios were supposedly nonexistent. In these crowded rooms, we intently listened to the sad news reported from Dallas. I remember that the radio volume was turned down so low that we had to very quietly huddle together to hear the newscasts. We certainly didn't want to be found guilty of violating the Sabbath rules nor the radio ban.

Actually, the faculty should have turned on the TV in the lobby for us to witness this historic news live. Even the next day, during SS and worship, I do not recall the adults even mentioning the assassination of President Kennedy. This is another example of how law mongers live. It is somewhat akin to living in a prison with controlled information access. In reality, this aspect was worse than prison life, being that prison inmates have multimedia access.

Just a few years ago, the well-known pianist, DINO, called the campus chaplain at Union College about a concert cancellation in Omaha. He was wondering if Union College would be interested in hosting an unscheduled concert while he was in the area. Of course, the UC campus chaplain was delighted to have such a musical celebrity perform at the College View SDA Church.

Interestingly, this concert was on a Friday night. Dino usually sells CDs and tapes at the end of his free concerts to enable his music ministry. Just before the concert was to begin, the chaplain realized that it would be officially Sabbath when the CDs and tapes would be sold in the hallway of the church. Thinking quickly, the chaplain appeared to the waiting audience with Dino. Many in the audience were not Seventh-day Adventists despite the short notice for the concert.

The chaplain dutifully informed the audience about this Sabbath-keeping dilemma. Consequently, Dino and the chaplain proposed a compromise solution to this ununusal predicament. The audience would be able to TAKE the music home WITHOUT actually paying for it on the honor system by simply giving their names and addresses. Then, at their earliest opportunity during the week, they could either mail in or bring by the monies for the music to Union College. In actuality, a quick cash payment for the music would have been less of a business transaction on the Sabbath than carefully recording names, addresses, and phone numbers. Even though still an Adventist at that time, I remember being embarrassed about this Sabbath dilemma. Union College had to underwrite Dino's music sales. Also, I understand that some people never paid Union College for Dino's music. What a strange night!

On another tragic occasion, the members of the former South Dakota Conference were strictly observing the Sabbath at their annual Campmeeting--totally free from the influence of the "worldly" news media. Unbeknownst to the South Dakota Conference leaders, a terrible flood was occurring in the Black Hills region on a Friday night. Despite their Welfare and Disaster vans being ready to respond to disasters, they were solemnly unaware of the physical needs of those on the other side of the State. Consequently and noticeably, the SDA disaster vans were a day late in arriving on the scene to assist in humanitarian relief efforts. Indeed, sabbathing is endlessly problematic.

Resting in Him,

Dennis J. Fischer
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have found myself telling B on several occasions that I hope for his sake that he doesn't wake up some day and realize that he lost years with his son because of some tradition that his church mandated he keep, not God. I don't know if he ever really considers it, though. He is so sure his church's teachings are right. But I do feel sorry for him. I know how much he misses and that will only increase as he gets into school and involved in activities that will conflict with his religion. It is so sad, to me.
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

That Friday night "Sabbath" predicament about selling music after sundown was so ridiculous it was almost comical!!

But in reality, it was very sad because the message it sent was that this behavior (not actually paying on Sabbath) is what constituted obedience to God.

Like there is something evil in money exchange on Saturday, but okay other days...?

If something is wrong to do on Saturday, it should be wrong to do any day! And also, if it is good and helpful to do on Saturdays, it is a good thing to do any day!

grace always,
cindy
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mom worked in a SDA hospital in the early 1940's. It was called The Glendale San, in Glendale, Ca. She tells me that even back then the cafeteria was open to anyone (this means anyone: staff, visitors and according to my mom since the cafeteria served good food at very reasonable prices often folks would stop in to eat at the hospital cafeteria who had nothing else to do at the hospital). At first the hospital did not take money in the cafeteria on Saturdays but rather kept a "tab" for the customes as to what was owed. This did not work out so they then had someone working at the cash registure on Saturdays in the cafeteria. I remember as a teenager attending the Soquel California campmeeting and money would be taken on Saturdays at the cafeteria. But, what I remember even more so and this really makes a mockery out of Sabbath-keeping is that the snack bar at the campmeeting, the one that sold the vegeburgers, the vegecorndogs, the haystacks and the caffine-free Loma Linda cola would not be open for business before sundown on Saturdays so around 45 minutes before sundowm, while it was still obivouselly still Sabbath a long line would begin to form at the snack bar for the good Sabbath-keeping folks to be able to purchase their vegefood. I always had the impression that most SDA's just kind-of could hardly wait for sundown on Saturdays and dreaded sundowns on Fridays. I remember on Fridays having so much pressure to make sure everything got done in time so that we wouldn't have any work to do on the Sabbath hours. One more lament on this topic and then I'll shut up about it. My adult son really knows very little about the SDA religion. In my opinion he believes the SDA must be the most right of any church because his grandparents who he loves more than anyone else in his life are/were SDA so that is enough to convence him that the SDA church must be right. So, he got married last year to a wonderful young lady that has become the daughter to me that I've always wanted. Well, her and me were spending Saturday afternoon several weeks ago at the park as the annual cultural fair and craft fair was going on. So, we sat on the lawn and drank our Cokes and visited. She told me she does not understand how come my son doesn't want her to do any housecleaning or shopping on Saturdays. But, that is o.k. with her because she doesn't like cleaning house anyway so she likes it that whatever is messy on Saturdays she can put off cleaning it up until Sunday. But, she likes to go shopping so she told him since he had two Saturday stipulations she will compromise and they can each agree that she will practice one of then, she will not clean house on Saturdays but she will go shopping on Saturdays if she wants to. To her this seemed reasonable because my son had two stipulations so she will give him one. I just kind-of smilied and told her however her and my son worked out personal things like that was between them as my modivation is not to have an opinion about most of anything except wanting to be able to be aİmajor player in the lives of my grandchildren. However, I hope my son takes it in consideration that his wife is very young and she did go through school from first grade through high school graduation at Catholic schools. Now he's sending the little girl who he became daddy to upon their marriage to the local SDA school. He just tells his wife he wants their little girl to go to a parochial school. The wife still doesn't know much English and I pray much about the situtation because it seems to me that there has not been FULL DISCLOSURE, if you know what I mean...
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, Two years ago the very popular Christian recording artist Michelle Tumes performed at the College View Church in Lincoln on a Fri. night. This was a ticketed concert, but that was okay becasue you could buy your tickets before sundown (never mind that you were paying for something that you would be doing after sundown). Many non-Adventist were there. They must have thought it pretty crazy when Pastor "X", the college chaplain, got up before the concert and said, "Because this is our Sabbath we have asked Michelle Tumes not to sell albums here tonight. We appreciate her agreeing to this and know that this is a hardship for her since this is her livelihood. Michelle will be at the coffee house across the street signing albums and you can purchase one there if you would like". You should have seen the crowd of people after the concert, Adventist and non-Adventist alike, waiting to cross 48th street to buy an album. And here's the punchline: Pastor "X" asked our friends to buy him an album while they were there!!! Hypocrisy at its worst.

Susan, yes I do believe many Adventist somewhat dread sundown Fri. and eagerly anticipate sundown Sat. In my experience sundown Sat. was something of a celebratory time. As soon as the sun was down you could finally bring the games out to play with your company, or make a run for the video store, or turn the TV on. I certainly know us kids counted the hours and minutes......the sun seemed to move SOOOOOOO SLLLOOOOOW on Sat. evenings.

Chris
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,

Your concert story shows the dysfunctional mental gymnastics that naturally arise when one attempts to "keep" the Old Covenants' 4th Commandment-- instead of simply embracing and resting each day in our New Sabbath, Jesus Christ!

And... if this concert was how Michelle Tumes made her "livelihood", wouldn't the concert-goers be promoting/encouraging her to "sin" by breaking the Sabbath commandment herself?... by "working" on that day?

As Jesus said, NEW wine just won't work with old wineskins!

grace always,
cindy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, your explanation of how you understood Sabbath times is exactly the way I dealt with the issue, also. The REAL time and date wasn't the actual issue; the issue really was keeping the Sabbath at the moment you experienced it and keeping it in the best way for your time and place.

I remember reading the sunset tables in the NPUC Gleaner as a teenager. It printed susnet times for four or five major NPUC cities. We lived about 1/2 hour east of Portland, so our sunset time was actually off from Pportland's by a few minutes. I remember figuring out a more-nearly-accurate time in my head so I could guage sunset when the days were rainy.

I also remember in the mid-seventies hearing some family members discussing a classical concert they were attending (at a secular venue, I might add) on a Friday night. They were buying their tickets in advance so they could go without breaking the Sabbath. I remember thinking that their hypocrisy was unbelievable, yet as I thought the whole thing through, I realized their solution was really no different from more "kosher" situations I'd experienced at college, such as guests being able to eat in the college cafeteria on Sabbath only if they had obtained meal coupons in advance.

(Of course, the issue of exchanging money for a product didn't even address the question of whether attending a classical concert on Friday night constituted sacred behavior or not--especially at a civic concert hall. That was an issue which "intellectual" Adventists tended to defend while those the would-be concert-goers would label "less educated" would probably have condemned.)

My, the agony of those mental games is exhausting to recall!

Colleen
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exhausting is right! That's why we had to do 'lay activities' on Sat. afternoon---right up to sundown. :)
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The way I heard the story about Pitcarim Island is that about 50% of its population was SDA and the other 50% was either Sunday-keepers or of no religious bent at all. So, the SDA church convinced all the SDA's on the island to move to the side of the island so that the Sabbath-keepers and the Sunday-keepers all kept the same day. I always thought that was a really clever solution to the problem.

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