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Archive through August 05, 2003Melissa20 8-05-03  12:36 pm
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Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great explanation, Jerry!

I've begun to realize that the Law and the Prophets (meaning, as Jerry pointed out, the Torah and the rest of the OT) are exactly the things that foreshadowed Jesus. Because we have the Law and the prophets, we KNOW that Jesus is the promised Messiah, not some imposter.

They still stand as a witness to the truth about Jesus' identity. If we didn't have the Law and the Prophets, we'd have no "proof" that Jesus' claims for himself are indeed valid. The Old Testament foreshadowed Jesus, and he fulfilled all the Law and the prophets' testimonies about a coming Messiah. (see Romans 3:21)

Praise God for Scripture!

Colleen
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One other quote about the finished work of salvation.

It is a long one, but very significant because it is Jesusí prayer just before he was crucified.


Quote:

John.17

[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[13] And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
[25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
[26] And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them


Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, Melissa, we posted at the same time!

Your boyfriend's problem, I think, is not a lack of facts or knowledge. It's identity. It is SO overwhelming to think about the implications of acknowledging that one's entire belief system, world view, and identity have been based on falsehood that it causes, almost without exception, deep anxiety, depression, or just plain anger and defensiveness when one considers the subject.

Imagine how upsetting it would be if you discovered that the people you thought were your parents had really been imposters who had lied to you about your true identity. (Well, maybe some people would be thrilled to discover that!) It's just almost more reality than one can take in, especially if the identity you've had has been comfortable and has given you a certain amount of security and even prestige.

To deal with Adventism requires a willingness to embrace the truth--not just the truth about the church, but the truth about one's own life, because the church has essentially shaped your whole life!

Embracing the truth is often terrifying, and it often requires that we be willing to let go of a lot of self-deception and accept our own need of repentance.

The most powerful thing anyone can do for your boyfriend, Melissa, is to pray for him. Only our sovereign God can sofen a heart to be willing to see its own deep need for truth and healing.

I know how frustrating this whole experience is for you, Melissa!

Continuing to pray for you and him and your son,

Colleen
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

I so agree with you. I remember in my life, I coldn't begin to understand so much of the Bible. It kept getting filtered through EGW, even after I no longer had anything to do with the SDA church. After all, the "truth" that I had learned as a child and young adult, learned from my father and mother, from the only people I had ever known and respected, was the "truth" from an Adventist prespective. From this viewpoint, it was impossible to know the real 'truth". I wrote a prayer that I physically taped into the front cover of every Bible that I own. Before I read the word, I would sincerely pray, Lord Jesus, You are God. There is no other. You are Lord of my life. You promised that Your spirit would teach us and lead us into ALL truth. Show me the truth as it is. Not the way I think it is, have been taught it is, or wish it were. Lead me into your ways as they are, not the way I want them to be. Fill me with Your spirit and help me to trust You and love You more and more, each day. THANK YOU! Amen.

It was only when I prayed to be taught real "Truth" and prayed to be led from the 'Truth" I had always believed, that I was able to be open to the Holy Spirit and His guidance.

Sincerely praying that prayer was the hardest thing I have ever done. It meant turning my back on everything I had ever believed or had been taught was right. It meant going in a different direction than the direction of my dead father (the one whom I most admire and love of anyone alive or dead, in my personal life ,except Jesus)family and friends.

What I gained was Jesus! Only Jesus. I have been asked so manuy times by SDA's, "How could you leave the sabbath?" or "How could you deny the 'spirit of prophecy'?" To this day, no SDA has ever asked me "Do you still love Jesus?" In a protracted discussion with one dear family member, I was told "for me, the law is all there is." I responded, "for me, the resurrected Savior who went to the cross for ME, is all their is." Her response was "Well, that too!"

Need more be said?

As Paul said, I glory in the Cross and only the cross".

Take the world, but give me JESUS!

In him, I am the winner!

<><
Thomas
Leigh (Leigh)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thomas,
thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer!
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Thomas and Colleen I enjoyed both your posts. Yes it was hard and like I have said in the past it was the hardest thing I have ever done. I had to put pople behind me who were closer then my family. I just walked out and never looked back. I have had a few make contact but sad to say not many if it were true that I was going to Hell they sure did not make much effort to help me. I know I am not going to Hell for leaving the church but they do. I am thankful that my parents did not live close by when I was going through this so that made it alittle easier but I was scared to death at the time.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Madelia, I am praying for your husband's meetings to be a resounding failure. AND that in the process of preparing for and leading these meetings, he will be deeply disturbed to stumble across things that don't add up. It happened with us.

I would have to say that we were already annoyed with EGW. Then the last time we led a Revelation Seminar, we threw out like half the lessons "the study is just too long, and these lessons are on things that aren't important".

Hmmmmm, "aren't important"........."aren't that important" and yet that was all that was talked about in the church! Hmmmmmmmm...

Another interesting thing about that seminar, the vast majority of attendees were black, and it was a white church. That bothered us. See, we aren't prejudiced, but we knew the church was, and that if anyone DID decide to keep the sabbath, they were absolutely NOT going to be welcome to attend the church! A good number of those folks were "poorly educated" people. But you know what...they knew their Bibles! You'd see them sometimes sitting and shaking their heads and some things that were said in the seminar.

The thing is, the Lord can see into your hubby's heart. Only He knows the key topic, or verse, or thing about the church that will be the key to unlock the man's heart and mind. So keep praying for the Lord to mess with that point until He makes the man miserable. It's what He has done to each of us.

Thomas, we too were never asked that question, "do you still love Jesus". Sad, isn't it. And oh so revealing!

Hm, we also need to pray for those who attend your husbands meetings. (And I hope the rest of you will join me in these prayers!) Lets pray that those who attend will find the words confusing, the ideas tangled, and just be so generally annoyed by the whole lot that they are quickly turned off and stop attending.
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I donít want to sound too harsh on B, I have tried to empathize how hard it would be for me to hear that everything I had been taught was not true...then to study and find out the person making such statements was right. Even then I donít know that I could identify, though, because Iíve never been taught that only one denomination has ěthe truthî. So the best I can do is empathize. In the beginning, when B was telling me how everything I had been taught was wrong, it was a horrible pit in my stomach as I looked up these scriptures he was quoting to me. And I did study what SDA said, but as I took it back to the Bible and began comparing it with what I found there, I didnít find my theologyís supposed errors. Then God would wake me up in the middle of the night and tell me to study a certain passage and I would spend hours studying that. I prayed and prayed for the truth, hoping not to merely find what I wanted to find (which is what B kept saying I was doing). When I found that other former SDAs had ultimately come to the same conclusion (especially the former pastors, who I felt were more ěqualifiedî for some reason). I wanted to look to sources that B would think really knew their theology, since I had given him one personís thoughts and he tore it apart because he didnít really ěunderstandî the SDA teachings. B still tends to classify those who leave Adventism as people who have axes to grind. He canít believe people can really leave and find a better relationship wtih Christ. He always refers to people that come to Adventism from Sunday churches as ěproofî people come to Adventism for the same reason.

It is frustrating, though, because there is so much to lose. Not that I think he is not saved, but if he continues in Adventism, ultimately I have to end the relationship. Iíve already been convicted about being equally yoked, etc. But neither of us want to split our son. And Iíd really like to spare my son having these same theological conflicts. It would be much easier for him to be taught a unified message rather than contradictory messages where he has to basically pick which parent is ěrightî. It seems a high price for all of us if their theology is in fact wrong. My motives, in that respect, are purely selfish.

I certainly donít mean to offend or minimize the difficulty. I canít even imagine.
Madelia (Madelia)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jerry for those verses. I'm going to mark them in my bible right now.

Lydell, thanks for your prayers. I'm sometimes tempted to drive by the school and knock down the signs advertising the seminar. I've been thinking about contacting some of the local churches and informing them that the seminar is sponsored by an SDA church.

I keep praying that my husband's eyes will be opened! Melissa, I can understand what you say about getting sucked into those arguments!
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 5:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Medelia sure know what you mean. Its funny how most people accept SDA as the same as them if they only knew that SDA preach others are not really saved until they know the truth not Jesus but the sabbath. I may sound harsh but I get sick hearing about or seeing anything to do with the church which up until last year I would have died believing it was the truth. You do have others praying for you too. Try and rest in Jesus
Madelia (Madelia)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Terry!
Doc (Doc)
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra,
Thanks for sharing that verse from 2 Peter. I remember you posted it before, but it really does hit the nail right on the head. Twist the Scriptures to their own destruction. Hmnmm.
Adrian

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